dpc

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Link?

I wish I could study GRF. I too like many have worked on getting left early, but I fear that I'm moving everything left early. If I could get on plates I'm certain that I could fiddle around with feel and get my pressure forward without dragging my upper body along, and without artificially dumping my shoulders right. There's a happy medium that should be easier to find with instant feedback.

You asked for an example. I gave one. You semi-dismissed it as speed is easy to gain.

<Scratches head> Where'd the goalposts go? I nailed that kick.

I'll take a swing at this one. I don't know him personally, but virtually everyone on here knows of him: Mark Crossfield - popular YouTuber. He made a series a few years ago where he was measured with all the tech available to him. I don't believe he used Gears specifically, but was wired up like the devices TPI uses. Plus force plates and GC Quad. Just by using the data feedback from this tech he went from an accurate but relatively short (270?) driver to accurate and over 300 cruising distance.

I've re-read my posts and some of the responses and I'm not being antagonistic to current, early mechanics teaching, and I agree wholeheartedly with @MonteScheinblum, @iacas, et.al. and this is going in a direction I feared it would. I guess what I would say is that a recent feel (that I know is correct because a respected instructor got me there and said you've got it) I've discovered got me thinking about how a child learns to throw a ball and I feel the golf equivalent of properly throwing a ball for the first time, and that analogy came up in this thread. To sum it up I've intellectually understood for years the mechanics of a "three-finger fade", but finally now believe I see a path to learn the golf swing foundation needed to reliably (on command) apply such a shot if the situation called for it. Edit to add: Once again I'm editing because I'm not getting to the point I'm searching for, but I think I may have found it. Earlier I referenced how you teach an 8 year old to not throw the bowling ball in the right gutter by having him start out at the right gutter and he'll learn to straighten out where he throws the ball or something unpleasant happens. That's exactly how the golf pro got me to feel a correct release for the first time! I was all prepared to have technical/mechanical discussions with him, instead he just put some obstacles in my way and let me figure it out. I could have read about or been told all the mechanics around the release - even had the instructor take my hands and say, "put them here and move them here" and I never would have gotten it. Instead he put stuff in the way and said hit the ball; I did so, but not correctly so he said make this movement ("don't let the clubhead pass your hands") he would repeat it over about 10 swings, I kept on exaggerating more and more until (in my mind), "Holy Sh!t! I can't believe I just did that.) Anyway I just wanted to get that out. Thanks. I really enjoy being a part of this community.

Ok, maybe this will head in the direction I'm trying to get to. I've been bowling in leagues since I was 10 years old; 55 years now. I suspect the bowling lesson you received didn't cover how to loft the ball, or even more basic how to move your body/arm to control the direction. I've never seen any mechanics talked about to kids on how to control the direction. If they tend to roll it to the right (right hander) you tell them to stand next to the right gutter. Their body will adjust and find a way to get the ball to start more left off their hand or they will dump it in the gutter immediately. Once they achieve a certain level of control you can then proceed to help them diagnose. Simple one is if they're missing to the right, they're getting to the foul line early compared to their arm swing; either walk slower (or straighter) or start their downswing earlier. This presumes they're still using a conventional grip and throwing a straight ball. Once they've attained some additional mastery they move on to a fingertip grip and start trying to hook the ball. Missing right in that scenario can now involve wrist movements and finger pressures. There's layers that get added onto that which involve matching equipment to their movement (shoes - slide length, and ball characteristics, etc.) I'm talking about the point in learning the golf swing of the 8 year old trying not to throw it in the right gutter all the time. By never swinging a golf club at a ball until I was 19 I feel like missed a basic mechanic that 8 year olds learn by feel that I've just now felt/discovered and I want to ensure I don't lose it. In golf, I'm like the 185 average bowler who has one of those dolly bowling bags and carries 8 balls to league every night; great guy, loves bowling, talks about it earnestly and knows all the subtleties of spare shooting, adjusting to oil patterns, matching balls to match oil patterns, etc. And yet, I could grab an ill-fitted black rubber house ball and beat him most every time, just like 5 digit or better golfers on here would do to me on the course. Edit to add, because that bowler didn't take up the game until he was an adult and there's some small basic feels he's missing. That's not to say he can't find it/learn it, but it's like adding a shim to something to level it out - much easier to start with a level surface.

Yeah I was afraid I lacked the words to explain what I'm thinking. Let me first start by saying that I'm fully on board with physical movement teaching: slow motion, breaking down a complex pattern into smaller movements, etc. It's just when you get to the point of instruction, the student has advanced beyond the point I was trying to highlight. Let me try again. Trying to teach a 15 hdcp a three-finger fade would not yield much success because the player lacks the subtlety of feel to reliably repeat that. It would be akin to trying to teach a slider to 6 year old. Or, let me try this. I just saw a feature on the news that the inventor of the hulu-hoop passed away and they were discussing that. You could explain all the mechanics of how to hulu-hoop to someone, but you can't teach the subtlety of feel and movement to keep the hoop up, it first has to be felt. But again I want to emphasize that I'm not arguing for a different way of teaching. At a recent lesson I just felt completely different from P6 to P7 and I'm in the process of mentally exploring that mostly for myself to find it again should I lose it, or most probably next spring when I haven't touched a club for a few months and I revert to old feels and I need to find this again.

I laughed when this thread ventured off into throwing a baseball, because I've been contemplating starting a thread with that theme, but didn't think it would go very far. So since this thread seems to be meandering I'll add it here. All the comments about throwing a ball - the mechanics of doing so apply to golf as well. No one starts out doing it well, it's learned by trial and error, some peer input, then later some formal instruction. But one thing that's not taught is the release - hear me out. You can instruct, "hold the ball here, move your wrist/fingers like this." to improve someone's accuracy or speed, but you can't teach, "when you feel this much pressure at this point in the throw let go of the ball." It just has to be felt and learned by trial and error. No one consciously relaxes their fingers to let go of the ball. They just do. If it's been several years or decades since you've thrown a tennis ball or a whiffle ball and pick one up and try to throw it hard or far, there's a pretty good chance you won't be accurate because of the subtly in the fingers required to do so has diminished. No one can tell you, "do this to hold it a little longer, or do this to let go sooner"... I've now come to think of the "release" in the golf swing - the movement from P6 to P7 - in the same way. It really can't be taught - the mechanics can be described, but the application of those mechanics has to be felt. Just like learning to throw you need to feel the right pressure in your fingers and thumb to release the ball accurately, then can learn to apply techniques to change the ball's movement. So too, the right fluidity of the wrists and hands through the golf release has to be felt first, then instruction can be applied to change to the golf ball's movement.

I think the real confusion starts from Shawn in the video demonstrating a correct P8 position and sort of off script said something to the affect of keeping the arms the same relationship to the shoulders - if you move the shoulders back to parallel to the target [line] your arms are pointing to right field. It seems that phrase has emboldened a swing to right field movement.

I agree with what both of you and the OP are saying. It's just tough to come up with a universally accepted phrase to describe this because ultimately it comes down to describing a feel which the player can implement, and that's going to be different to most everyone.

If this is an active thing, then yes it can be correctly defined as flipping at the ball. Incorrect: hold the release or delay throwing the club until the last second. Less incorrect: don't do anything active to release the club at the ball and it feels like the release is later.

I would wager an uncomfortable amount we are referencing the same feel, but can't quite nail the description. To answer your original question, provided we're talking about the same thing, I think it's something you (and I) have ferreted out later than others. But hey, better late than never.

I'm not going to contradict anything any other instructors may post here, but the bold phrase reasonably describes what I felt at a lesson a month ago. I've not posted about it because it seems anyway I phrase it can be boiled down to "feel isn't real", or "if it works for you, great". The trouble is in finding the words. "Holding the release or throwing the club later" implies handle dragging, but the rest of your description leads me to believe that's not in reality what you were doing. FWIW, the closest description I can muster is from P6 on I don't do anything active to move the club to the ball or square the face. I just keep turning, and the club, "pops out" of it's accord as my hands move past the ball and begin to rise, and the most I'm doing is controlling the momentum, but not the club or face. I would discuss it with your instructor, but if you're experiencing what I experienced, I'd say go with it. But beware of handle dragging and manipulating the club or face.

This move right here, adding turn and speed at the bottom of the move is Gold, Jerry, Gold!

That was a rarity for me @airjammer. At my lesson I was exhibiting the exact fault I wanted help fixing, so that was a bonus. And he did correct the reason for the fault and explained it and gave me drills to work on to make the change permanent, but I've yet to strike it as well as I did for 15-20 minutes at the end of my lesson. But I think I'm getting closer.

Your body is different day by day and feels change. Golfers are often bad at starting with the same exaggeration level when the instructor isn't there to tell them to do it. I'm experiencing this phenomenon at the moment. I had two instances this season: a fitting, and a lesson. I hit it fantastically both times, but couldn't replicate it later. I've been pondering this daily since. My current working theory is rhythm and tempo. In both instances people were watching me so sub-conscientiously I began slowly to ensure good contact and not embarrassing myself. As my comfort grew with the strange club or the strange movement I was able to add speed, but maintained tempo and hit the snot out of it (relatively speaking 🙂). So essentially I was taking slow swings and ramped up while maintaining control - something I don't do on my own either on the range or the course.

7. 8. and 11. I should write those numbers on my golf glove or bag so I see them every time I pick up a club.

As for drills, Dr. Rose provides some in other videos. In some he has the player with their arms in the air squat down and jump, and simultaneously throw their arms down. I think he may have one where the player is using a medicine ball. In others he uses his stool on wheels and has the player push off with their lead leg in a manner to cause some rotation in the stool as it's rolling. Then he has the player add the movement of throwing their arms down while initiating the push.

I agree @golferdude54. @CoachWhitty I wasn't slamming your comment at all, and I recognized you were emphasizing that it was your feel. I was trying to highlight that merely stating a "shorthand" description of a movement in the swing can potentially lead a reader down the wrong path. In fact my opening post in this thread was exactly that, and I've since attempted to be more circumspect about how a phrase a feel I've used with success.

The bold highlighted portion of this post needs another 500 words or so of explanation. Someone reading this could end up with the clubhead behind their heels and still less than a foot off the ground. I was going to describe this position of the swing as P2, but technically since the shaft hasn't hit parallel on the way up yet it's not P2. But the golfer who gets into this position goes through P2, P3, up to P4 in a straight line. I suspect you don't do that.