Ball Flight Laws Poll - Who Disagrees?

[Hstead]

I thought I would start this thread since the Ballard thread has been so badly derailed into a discussion of the ball flight laws. I feel badly that the Ballard thread has turned into ball flight disagreement, but at the same time it kind of amazed me that there are some people that do not believe in the "new" ball flight laws. Personally, I do not even like the term "new" because they have been around for so long now.

 

I was a science major so I am obviously very biased, and I put a great deal of weight in physics, geometry, and math. I enjoy learning about why the ball does the things that it does and what creates those circumstances. I by no means am an expert, and I have just really learned to understand much more of what is going on myself over the past couple of years. I made the poll pretty basic, I do not want to even get into the D Plane, how the "path" is 3D and is created by a horizontal and vertical vectors etc. It is much more complicated I know, but for this purpose, I have tried to keep it basic so people can understand it better. I didn't realize it was still a discussion really.

 

So what say you?

[Hawkeye77]

Martin Hall actually did a nice bit on new ball flight laws last week, may have done it before, but the first time I caught it, so it surprised me.

I don't get too caught up in it, but what is there to say to those who contend that the "old" laws reflected, in part, the nature of the clubs and equipment of the time?

Not disagreeing club face angle is more determinative.

[shortstop20]

Do these people believe the Earth is flat too?

[KevCarter]

I call them the "new" laws because I'm an old fart, and was taught the "old" incorrect version my whole life. Anyone refuting the "new" laws is not paying attention.

I understand the argument that the greatest players in history did just fine with the "old"laws, but they simply had the talent to develop "feels" that wouldn't stand the test of today's "science", but got them around the golf course.

[dpb5031]

Once explained to me (about 4 years ago) I really did not find it that difficult to grasp. Martin Hall explained this quite well with some white alignment rods or whatever they were a few nights ago.

That said, understanding the why doesn't always facilitate the how. I would say to most players, it doesn't really make a difference. If you can repeatedly produce a given ball flight it doesn't really matter if you understand the geometry and physics behind it.

[highergr0und]

At our lunch with the trackman rep a few weeks ago, he said they've stopped even asking the question when they do classes for PGA pros/teachers. He said in the beginning they had some pushback, but it got to the point where everyone has accepted the new norm.

Now whether or not they've changed their teaching habits is a different story. I don't care what the data says, if I've successfully taught someone how to execute a certain type of shot for years, why change the "feel" aspect to align with science?

[sweetswing22]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1390693966' post='8532345']
Once explained to me (about 4 years ago) I really did not find it that difficult to grasp. Martin Hall explained this quite well with some white alignment rods or whatever they were a few nights ago.

That said, understanding the why doesn't always facilitate the how. I would say to most players, it doesn't really make a difference. If you can repeatedly produce a given ball flight it doesn't really matter if you understand the geometry and physics behind it.
[/quote]+1

[TRoc9892]

I don't really understand the topic. How does someone disagree with the new ball flight laws? Forgive me, I didn't read the other thread so I don't want to start any arguing.
One thing this reminds me of is when I see people ridiculing teaches when they teach no exactly "correct" ball flight laws, but there comes a point where if a teacher is telling a student he needs to get the face shut, even though the face may need to be open to the target, then he should do so.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='TRoc9892' timestamp='1390694823' post='8532445']
I don't really understand the topic. How does someone disagree with the new ball flight laws?
[/quote]

Old habits die hard. Getting doctors to stop bleeding patients with leaches didn't happen over night either... :-)

[Jarri]

I don't think a lot of people (especially ones that have been introduced to the real laws) disagree with it or still believe that path determines initial direction. Guess only those that have never heard the real laws would..

However if I have to move the ball, I aim my feet to where I want to start the ball and face open or close depending on which way I want to move it and how much... Somehow this gets me into impact alignment that's necessary to hit that shot...I have spent hours trying to.use the real laws and alignments buy didn't succeed..

My body just somehow knows to get the face at impact where I want to start the ball even though I aimed my feet there,,,, maybe my brain is in my feet...

[Hstead]

On the other thread Forged_irons stated that the "new" ball flight laws are "insane" and the path is what determines the start line. He thinks you "release" the club to draw it etc.

I just wanted to see how many other people thought that the path was the main determining factor of the start direction. He is insistent that we are all "insane" and have no clue what we are talking about. I didn't think there would be many, but to be honest I really didn't realize there were still people that didn't understand the new laws on this site. There have been so many good threads and excellent instructors explain how everything works around here that I thought it was basically accepted as common knowledge now.

[Finbarr Saunders]

The original ball flight laws were and still are correct to this day "There are 5 laws that influence ball flight, those are; Clubhead Speed, Centeredness of Contact, Clubhead Path, Position of Club face and Angle of approach"

[JPGolf FL]

People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.

[MadGolfer76]

Ha. Someone trolled the thread by voting for path.

[SurfinTurf]

I always wondered if the moon was really made of swiss cheese. Pretty sure the moon landing was a hoax.

[Finbarr Saunders]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

I personally think self diagnosis for the average golfer is a flawed concept, considering a ball can still draw with a clubface that's open to the path

[Hstead]

[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1390699363' post='8532923']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

I personally think self diagnosis for the average golfer is a flawed concept, considering a ball can still draw with a clubface that's open to the path
[/quote]

I mentioned earlier I am not an expert, but how is a guy going to draw a ball with his face open to the path? Toe hit? Please explain.

[Finbarr Saunders]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390699511' post='8532931']
[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1390699363' post='8532923']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

I personally think self diagnosis for the average golfer is a flawed concept, considering a ball can still draw with a clubface that's open to the path
[/quote]

I mentioned earlier I am not an expert, but how is a guy going to draw a ball with his face open to the path? Toe hit? Please explain.
[/quote]

John Graham has a great wee video on it with trackman, he shows using the same numbers for the path and the face the massive difference in ball flight between center contact and a toe or a heel hit

[thekru]

I agree with the ball flight laws. Just not how they are applied to teaching at times.

[Finbarr Saunders]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390699511' post='8532931']
[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1390699363' post='8532923']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

I personally think self diagnosis for the average golfer is a flawed concept, considering a ball can still draw with a clubface that's open to the path
[/quote]

I mentioned earlier I am not an expert, but how is a guy going to draw a ball with his face open to the path? Toe hit? Please explain.
[/quote]


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhFACdSm3ds[/media]

[TRoc9892]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1390695313' post='8532499']
[quote name='TRoc9892' timestamp='1390694823' post='8532445']
I don't really understand the topic. How does someone disagree with the new ball flight laws?
[/quote]

Old habits die hard. Getting doctors to stop bleeding patients with leaches didn't happen over night either... :-)
[/quote]
Good point.
[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1390698636' post='8532829']
I always wondered if the moon was really made of swiss cheese. Pretty sure the moon landing was a hoax.
[/quote]
Actually, we know the moon is made of barbeque spare ribs.

[finalist]

Tennis instructors laugh at us for even debating physical facts.

[Finbarr Saunders]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1390703020' post='8533345']
Tennis instructors laugh at us for even debating physical facts.
[/quote]

Is there such a thing as a stupid question

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1390700399' post='8533021']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390699511' post='8532931']
[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1390699363' post='8532923']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

I personally think self diagnosis for the average golfer is a flawed concept, considering a ball can still draw with a clubface that's open to the path
[/quote]

I mentioned earlier I am not an expert, but how is a guy going to draw a ball with his face open to the path? Toe hit? Please explain.
[/quote]

John Graham has a great wee video on it with trackman, he shows using the same numbers for the path and the face the massive difference in ball flight between center contact and a toe or a heel hit
[/quote]

Yes true, but if someone is understanding the flight of the ball, I would assume they also are aware of contact and it's effects.

[Hstead]

I am going to post this video again in this thread regarding Nicklaus and the ball flight laws. Jack basically says in the intro that he "changed the way he plays" because he has been on the TM. Jack understands the new ball flight laws. Holding his description of what he felt he did from 40 years ago before we had technology to show exactly what was happening not just his description of what he felt up as the Holy Grail in defense of the old way of thinking is pretty much useless. You can stomp your foot and say, but the old timers were good all you want.

http://youtu.be/AlLmvUBHUbg

[JPGolf FL]

Someone should pound their shoe on the table.....

[chrisgilly09]

Big friggin deal...who's not gonna know that it's a toe hit? Pros defo knew gear effect back then

[Hstead]

Even KG gets this. I have to wonder if the 5 "path determines direction" votes were just messing around or they really believe that. No one has chimed in that has voted for "path as start" yet. Do you think they just do not want to be part of the discussion?

[eightiron]

I accidentally voted path , changed it to face . Complex subject since most golfers don't hit the sweet spot and gear effect is in play . I would think the important thing is knowing now that how much down can effect the flight . Lot of good players draw their shorts / mid irons but fade the long stuff

[Hstead]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390710723' post='8534235']
I accidentally voted path , changed it to face . Complex subject since most golfers don't hit the sweet spot and gear effect is in play . I would think the important thing is knowing now that how much down can effect the flight . Lot of good players draw their shorts / mid irons but fade the long stuff
[/quote]

I didn't even want to attempt to explain the D plane to Forged. His head might explode.