Ball Flight Laws Poll - Who Disagrees?

[Mitchell]

Had a story related to me by a member at Champions Golf Club about Jackie Burke Jr. on the range with one of his assistant pros who was overly impressed with Trackman statistics while giving a lesson. The assistant was explaining to an incredulous member how he was hitting a hook with open face at impact. Mr. Burke, in his typical demeanor said, "Heck (edited) son, Demaret was showing that 50 years ago to a guy, move the ball forward a touch, and don't get so freaking steep on it and it will straighten out, let me show you" Mr. Burke then hit three balls, straight, fade, and hook from same set-up with open face and said "you notice anything different on that fancy butt (edited) computer? I moved ball around to change way presented club (read as path and AoA) to curve it, no computer can tell ya what's in a player's brain!" Mr. Burke then told member that assistant was smart guy and could help him lot with game.

[rogerbrunh]

Agree face determines startline more. But I think people now don't pay much attention to path, which is more important. I mean, for a draw, do you aim to targetline, swing, and then you think about face facing startline tline and path going more right of startline? That would make you tweak your swing on the run and have you swing armsy to be more in to out.

If you think path, you aim yourself and your swing at path or right of startline at address, then just adjust the clubface to face startline, then swing your usual swing.

Very seldom I see teachers teach this way.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='rogerbrunh' timestamp='1390711031' post='8534257']
Agree face determines startline more. But I think people now don't pay much attention to path, which is more important. I mean, for a draw, do you aim to targetline, swing, and then you think about face facing startline tline and path going more right of startline? That would make you tweak your swing on the run and have you swing armsy to be more in to out.

If you think path, you aim yourself and your swing at path or right of startline at address, then just adjust the clubface to face startline, then swing your usual swing.

Very seldom I see teachers teach this way.
[/quote]
IMO your description is the easiest way to hit a draw but can lead to double crosses and pull hooks. Adjusting the path around the face allows for less face closure.

[rogerbrunh]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1390714720' post='8534577']
[quote name='rogerbrunh' timestamp='1390711031' post='8534257']
Agree face determines startline more. But I think people now don't pay much attention to path, which is more important. I mean, for a draw, do you aim to targetline, swing, and then you think about face facing startline tline and path going more right of startline? That would make you tweak your swing on the run and have you swing armsy to be more in to out.

If you think path, you aim yourself and your swing at path or right of startline at address, then just adjust the clubface to face startline, then swing your usual swing.

Very seldom I see teachers teach this way.
[/quote]
IMO your description is the easiest way to hit a draw but can lead to double crosses and pull hooks. Adjusting the path around the face allows for less face closure.
[/quote]

What do you think is the reason for the double crosses? I find this the easiest, compared to aiming to target and adjusting the path and face on the run...

[FlyFish]

Both vote options are incorrect. It's club face in relation to club path.

[rogerbrunh]

Eliminating the double cross is easy if you know how to use your lower body (hips and legs) to eliminate one side (right side for draws, left side for fades).

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1390695313' post='8532499']
[quote name='TRoc9892' timestamp='1390694823' post='8532445']
I don't really understand the topic. How does someone disagree with the new ball flight laws?
[/quote]

Old habits die hard. Getting doctors to stop bleeding patients with leaches didn't happen over night either... :-)
[/quote]

Wasn't that a SNL character? Theorodic of York...Medieval Doctor?

BTW Kev...leeches are a huge walleye bait in your part of the world.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='rogerbrunh' timestamp='1390716303' post='8534687']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1390714720' post='8534577']
[quote name='rogerbrunh' timestamp='1390711031' post='8534257']
Agree face determines startline more. But I think people now don't pay much attention to path, which is more important. I mean, for a draw, do you aim to targetline, swing, and then you think about face facing startline tline and path going more right of startline? That would make you tweak your swing on the run and have you swing armsy to be more in to out.

If you think path, you aim yourself and your swing at path or right of startline at address, then just adjust the clubface to face startline, then swing your usual swing.

Very seldom I see teachers teach this way.
[/quote]
IMO your description is the easiest way to hit a draw but can lead to double crosses and pull hooks. Adjusting the path around the face allows for less face closure.
[/quote]

What do you think is the reason for the double crosses? I find this the easiest, compared to aiming to target and adjusting the path and face on the run...
[/quote]
Some , when setting up closed, have a tendency to pull the club back online instinctively.

[jaydro]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1390693966' post='8532345']
Once explained to me (about 4 years ago) I really did not find it that difficult to grasp. Martin Hall explained this quite well with some white alignment rods or whatever they were a few nights ago.

That said, understanding the why doesn't always facilitate the how. I would say to most players, it doesn't really make a difference. If you can repeatedly produce a given ball flight it doesn't really matter if you understand the geometry and physics behind it.
[/quote]
this is my only problem as I've watched guys like Joe Mayo(not trying to single him out) go on and on about the "new" laws, trackman, why hitting up on the ball is imperative, etc. But very little discussed about how to achieve the numbers they talk about.

[Finbarr Saunders]

I can remember back in the day when a draw or a fade only moved about 2 yards max at the end of its flight. Today its accepted when a ball is moving 10 yards in its entire flight, we called that a hook or a slice

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='FlyFish' timestamp='1390716617' post='8534703']
Both vote options are incorrect. It's club face in relation to club path.
[/quote]

Hence how the poll says mostly. No one is trying to pull a fast one.

[Hoganstriker]

I really don't think tm had an effect on Jack. It wasn't around when he was winning 18 majors. Johnny Miller didn't need it or any of the greats from that era.
Knudson didn't need it or Hogan or Demaret or Snead or Palmer.
Guys who grew up on balata knew plenty about how to spin the ball different ways.
It's the most popular sport on the Internet to call folks out who might not be d plane afficianados.
Ultimately we all have to execute shots the best way we can.
I for one am tired of the d plane folks going on like a bunch of children. The ball flight quote laws have never changed a bit. Good players and instructors have always found ways to produce repeatable shots. Some ways are better than others.
You can have all the d plane info in the world and not have a clue how a good swing works.
It's funny to me that folks so enjoy telling others they are wrong even when it's clear that they had no idea what the op was talking about in the first place. The other thread has some real deal stuff in it but most golfers are not prepared to commit to doing things that are always and have always been fundamentally sound.
Golfs a thinking mans game of course but executing shots is a result of hard work on solid fundamentals.
I am tired of the Internet d plane golf warriors on a crusade to prove Johnny and jack didn't know what they were doing but Joe Schmoe Internet golf crusader does.
Give it a rest, people.

[Hstead]

The other thread also had some totally full of crap stuff in it too, like the "expert" linked to that showed Weir hitting some kind of punch hold off shots most likely under a tree and then claimed "weir had listened to the wrong people". What bull crap. Then the "expert" goes on to talk about how Justin Rose doesn't know what he is talking about and the toe leads the heel in the divot. WHAT? That "expert" is a total moron. He has no clue what is actually happening. I was tired of watching and listening to "experts" give misinformation that is totally not even close to what is really going on at impact.

When someone thinks the path is responsible for the direction and that somehow you can magically "warp the toe" around the ball to create side spin like you are playing billiards is totally false. Also, stating that if your path and face do not match you do not have a "heavy hit" and instead are applying a glancing blow is also totally incorrect. But when faced with facts, everyone wants to run and hide behind "Jack and Hogan could do it". Well Jack now understands that his old thought process was flawed. And he has said as much. But let's not let Jack's own words stand in the way of digging in our heels when we are completely wrong and do not want to admit it. I have never understood the "I am right and everyone else is wrong" attitude. So far it is approaching 95% of the crowd here are "children" and wrong I guess?

[MizzyMan]

[quote name='FlyFish' timestamp='1390716617' post='8534703']
Both vote options are incorrect. It's club face in relation to club path.
[/quote]

You're actually correct. I think OP meant what caused the INITIAL direction of the ball.

[MadGolfer76]

Wow, "roger" got banned in record time. What happened there?

[Hoganstriker]

Hey Hst,
I just dislike it when folks rip quote old style ways of talking about the swing. Theres no question as to the physics. The "old guys" saying wrap the toe around the ball or release the club without manipulating it are talking about a swing technique not necessarily attempting to explain in exacting detail the physics is all.
They knew what worked in terms of technique to produce the physics even if their explanation may have been technically inaccurate.
I think knowing how to produce the shots is far more important than technical descriptions of the exact nature of the conditions at impact that produce a given ballflight don't you?
Not trying to be argumentative really. Just have a soft spot for classic technique and instruction.

[MizzyMan]

Nothing's worse than hearing all these new-fangled "laws" and hearing how guys like Jack and Johnny were wrong about ball-flight and computers and Trackman can prove it and blah, blah, blah………..except old-school "flat-earthers" clinging to erroneous beliefs just cuz their idol says (or SAID) that that's the way it is, always has been, and always will be and they don't want to/can't admit that maybe they were slightly wrong.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1390766326' post='8537427']
Hey Hst,
I just dislike it when folks rip quote old style ways of talking about the swing. Theres no question as to the physics. The "old guys" saying wrap the toe around the ball or release the club without manipulating it are talking about a swing technique not necessarily attempting to explain in exacting detail the physics is all.
They knew what worked in terms of technique to produce the physics even if their explanation may have been technically inaccurate.
I think knowing how to produce the shots is far more important than technical descriptions of the exact nature of the conditions at impact that produce a given ballflight don't you?
Not trying to be argumentative really. Just have a soft spot for classic technique and instruction.
[/quote]

I don't understand what your beef is. No one says Jack or anyone from the past sucks because they didn't understand the proper result of their modifications. Just that they were wrong. Obviously they successfully pulled it off, but I would attribute that due to the fact that they are clearly very good at what they do. I'm not sure why its unacceptable to desire clarification on how the ball curves. I've said this in other threads. I could tell Lebron any messed up thing on how to shoot, and he still will find a way to make it go in. The random guy that asks me for advice at the range? Well he's the one where knowing the correct thing is actually going to yield results. Not saying Lebron wouldn't benefit from proper information in that case(this is all theoretical), however it's not going to affect him nearly as much as av average player.

It's annoying when you have previous greats that don't understand and then try to communicate what they THINK is the cause of a certain action, and then that leads others to attempt to recreate the same feelings and results. Way way way easier for someone to listen to the facts that actually explain how the ball moves, rather than what a top tier player felt was happening during the swing. I still don't understand how its bad to say Jack was wrong. He was. He's just a really really good golfer and even though he didn't understand how the ball curved, his body could pull it off and make him do it successfully. Maybe he would have been a little better, or maybe even a little worse with proper information. But that doesn't matter. I'm not sure anyone wants to be taught incorrect information that is physically impossible.

Obsessing over whether your path is +2 or +4 is obviously not conducive to playing well, however a proper understanding of the flight of the ball is critical at some point of the equation. Some players prefer to not worry about it themselves and just have their teachers tell them. Others want to know themselves. Don't know of any that want to be taught the opposite of what is possible.

I'll repeat this again though, the biggest benefit from understanding how the ball moves is for the average players. Exceptional performers of any kind in any discipline often have idiosyncrasies that are thought to be detrimental to their game. They manage to make it work though. Kevin Martin is a perfect example, Shawn Marion, etc etc. Doesn't mean its the best way to do it, but they still got job done. However if guy at the local rec center tries to shoot like that, it's going to hurt him a whole lot more than someone who has practiced it their whole lives and managed to make it work.
Still don't get the fuss over people that teach on LM claiming that previous greats don't know what they are talking about. They truly don't. Playing and coaching are two separate things. Some can do both, others can't. However it's not wise to listen to a great when their advice defies the laws of physics.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1390695313' post='8532499']
[quote name='TRoc9892' timestamp='1390694823' post='8532445']
I don't really understand the topic. How does someone disagree with the new ball flight laws?
[/quote]

Old habits die hard. Getting doctors to stop bleeding patients with leaches didn't happen over night either... :-)
[/quote]
Hey bud! Funny enough, science showed many moons later that the leeches have a natural coagulant property in their mucus and it actually did help to a small extent those with bleeding disorders, although they didn't know it at the time.

Blood letting: now THAT was not good! Ask George Washington!

Where is this "new" versus "old" info found? Wasn't aware human physiology had completely changed.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1390768979' post='8537645']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1390695313' post='8532499']
[quote name='TRoc9892' timestamp='1390694823' post='8532445']
I don't really understand the topic. How does someone disagree with the new ball flight laws?
[/quote]

Old habits die hard. Getting doctors to stop bleeding patients with leaches didn't happen over night either... :-)
[/quote]
Hey bud! Funny enough, science showed many moons later that the leeches have a natural coagulant property in their mucus and it actually did help to a small extent those with bleeding disorders, although they didn't know it at the time.

Blood letting: now THAT was not good! Ask George Washington!

Where is this "new" versus "old" info found? Wasn't aware human physiology had completely changed.
[/quote]

LOL!!!

[butch33611]

I would think the only people ball flight laws would effect are the players who hit the ball in the center of the club face every time in order to get the desired effect or shot. Players who have that little dime size wear mark on the center of the irons. I submit the number of golfers who can do this are small to the extreme. Even the pros like tiger will what they call over cook a draw or fade on a given shot and miss the green.

You can study ball flight laws till the cows come home, buy your own trackman, Hit a million balls but in the end the player still has to execute his swing perfectly to get the desired effect or result and there's the rub. If we all could swing a club like the iron Byron machine this discussion would be very helpful and we would be hitting flags with draws and fades all day long but alas were'er all just taking our best shot and dealing with the results.

Having the know how is still a far cry from being able to execute it perfectly.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='butch33611' timestamp='1390771365' post='8537851']
I would think the only people ball flight laws would effect are the players who hit the ball in the center of the club face every time in order to get the desired effect or shot. Players who have that little dime size wear mark on the center of the irons. I submit the number of golfers who can do this are small to the extreme. Even the pros like tiger will what they call over cook a draw or fade on a given shot and miss the green.

You can study ball flight laws till the cows come home, buy your own trackman, Hit a million balls but in the end the player still has to execute his swing perfectly to get the desired effect or result and there's the rub. If we all could swing a club like the iron Byron machine this discussion would be very helpful and we would be hitting flags with draws and fades all day long but alas were'er all just taking our best shot and dealing with the results.

Having the know how is still a far cry from being able to execute it perfectly.
[/quote]

It's not about perfect. By that logic, then literally no one in the world should worry about it....... Don't get that at all. No one fix their swing ever, just work on your contact.

[bph7]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1390756395' post='8536427']
I really don't think tm had an effect on Jack. It wasn't around when he was winning 18 majors. Johnny Miller didn't need it or any of the greats from that era.
Knudson didn't need it or Hogan or Demaret or Snead or Palmer.
Guys who grew up on balata knew plenty about how to spin the ball different ways.
It's the most popular sport on the Internet to call folks out who might not be d plane afficianados.
Ultimately we all have to execute shots the best way we can.
I for one am tired of the d plane folks going on like a bunch of children. The ball flight quote laws have never changed a bit. Good players and instructors have always found ways to produce repeatable shots. Some ways are better than others.
You can have all the d plane info in the world and not have a clue how a good swing works.
It's funny to me that folks so enjoy telling others they are wrong even when it's clear that they had no idea what the op was talking about in the first place. The other thread has some real deal stuff in it but most golfers are not prepared to commit to doing things that are always and have always been fundamentally sound.
Golfs a thinking mans game of course but executing shots is a result of hard work on solid fundamentals.
I am tired of the Internet d plane golf warriors on a crusade to prove Johnny and jack didn't know what they were doing but Joe Schmoe Internet golf crusader does.
Give it a rest, people.
[/quote]

So, just to be clear, if the ball flight laws come up, should we discuss how it really works or how it used to be described? Also, no one is saying this has anything to do with the golf swing. It's a discussion of ball flight behavior based on the launch conditions. It's interesting to me, and that's why I learned more about it. I don't think most of us are under any delusion that it's changed much about how golf is played. Also, for future reference, if you are looking more for a discussion about swings and other stuff that really matters (and I readily admit that the vast majority of people would be much better off worrying about their swing than the ball flight laws), you probably aren't gonna have a good time in a thread titled "ball flight laws poll..."

[bph7]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1390764835' post='8537263']
Wow, "roger" got banned in record time. What happened there?
[/quote]

Most likely it was discovered to be a new account of either SVS or Schoen.

[buckeyefl]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

And yet handicaps remain stagnant. Why would that be?

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390774315' post='8538257']
I agree. I am not a youngster myself at 41. I believed for years the old way of thinking though, and my mentors did too, so when I would hit that snap hook that started a little left of my target and hook they would tell me "you came over the top of that one". So I spent 20 years trying to swing more right and more right when the ball would start a the target and hook. It only made things worse. I spent 20 years aiming my face at the target instead of where I wanted it to start. I also would double cross 50% of the shots I was trying to fade because I then would have the face "open" and swing from the inside, perfect recipe for a push draw. And since I spent 20 years being told I needed to swing farther right to correct that ball that started at my target, I grooved a swing from so far inside I was 10* out on TM. It was just disasterous information. Totally screwed me up.
[/quote]

Sounds EXACTLY like my entire career as a golfer...

[Hstead]

[quote name='buckeyefl' timestamp='1390775836' post='8538417']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

And yet handicaps remain stagnant. Why would that be?
[/quote]

I would say the majority of golfers do not really have the intestinal fortitude to do what it takes to become better. That is what Is see mostly where I am anyway. Most of the guys I see at clubs around here just want to go play, have fun, drink a few beers, spend time with their pals, and play golf. They complain about not being good, but they do not put much time at all trying to really improve. There are only a handful of guys you will ever find at our club on the practice greens. At our club, the practice green is mostly used for guys getting ready to tee off and they are going to hit 15 putts real quick to get the speed down. You won't find many there for an hour working on their short game. The range is used to hit 20 balls to get loose for the round they are getting ready to play. I would bet, even though this thread shows 95% of WRX members know the ball flight laws, it is opposite at my club, 98% do not.

We are enthusiasts and want to get better for the most part around here. Most other golfers idea of "improving" is buying a new TM driver to gain 17n yards.

Not to mention, when guys to take a lesson, I hear "well that doesn't feel comfortable" and they never put any time in trying to actually change their swings. That is what I see anyway.

[bph7]

[quote name='buckeyefl' timestamp='1390775836' post='8538417']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

And yet handicaps remain stagnant. Why would that be?
[/quote]

Well the vast majority of golfers still "subscribe" to the old laws. I think you are trying to say, "well, if everyone knows this now, handicaps should drop and they haven't". On it's face, it's not an unreasonable position, but the premise that it relies on (the fact that people are generally aware of the new laws) is incorrect.

[butch33611]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390774725' post='8538309']
[quote name='butch33611' timestamp='1390771365' post='8537851']
I would think the only people ball flight laws would effect are the players who hit the ball in the center of the club face every time in order to get the desired effect or shot. Players who have that little dime size wear mark on the center of the irons. I submit the number of golfers who can do this are small to the extreme. Even the pros like tiger will what they call over cook a draw or fade on a given shot and miss the green.

You can study ball flight laws till the cows come home, buy your own trackman, Hit a million balls but in the end the player still has to execute his swing perfectly to get the desired effect or result and there's the rub. If we all could swing a club like the iron Byron machine this discussion would be very helpful and we would be hitting flags with draws and fades all day long but alas were'er all just taking our best shot and dealing with the results.

Having the know how is still a far cry from being able to execute it perfectly.
[/quote]

It's not about perfect. By that logic, then literally no one in the world should worry about it....... Don't get that at all. No one fix their swing ever, just work on your contact.
[/quote]

Im not saying that at all. But your contact better be spot on before any of this makes a spit of difference. Get the ball flight laws exactly right but hit it too far twards the toe and your still in the water. Perfect swing with perfect ball contact using this information and its in the hole. Its just a small matter of execution. Then somehow you have incorporate the ball flight laws into your particular swing style to make it work properly. I just don't think that many players can pull it off with any regularity or success.

[Schnee]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390776162' post='8538459']
[quote name='buckeyefl' timestamp='1390775836' post='8538417']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390698313' post='8532791']
People learned to play well back then despite the old laws, not because they knew them. Now that we know what is actually happening, it is much easier to diagnose and self diagnose problems with ball flight.
[/quote]

And yet handicaps remain stagnant. Why would that be?
[/quote]

I would say the majority of golfers do not really have the intestinal fortitude to do what it takes to become better. That is what Is see mostly where I am anyway. Most of the guys I see at clubs around here just want to go play, have fun, drink a few beers, spend time with their pals, and play golf. They complain about not being good, but they do not put much time at all trying to really improve. There are only a handful of guys you will ever find at our club on the practice greens. At our club, the practice green is mostly used for guys getting ready to tee off and they are going to hit 15 putts real quick to get the speed down. You won't find many there for an hour working on their short game. The range is used to hit 20 balls to get loose for the round they are getting ready to play. I would bet, even though this thread shows 95% of WRX members know the ball flight laws, it is opposite at my club, 98% do not.

We are enthusiasts and want to get better for the most part around here. Most other golfers idea of "improving" is buying a new TM driver to gain 17n yards.

Not to mention, when guys to take a lesson, I hear "well that doesn't feel comfortable" and they never put any time in trying to actually change their swings. That is what I see anyway.
[/quote]


AMEN! My club is mostly older gentlemen and a handful of juniors. Granted its a small club in a vacation town, but you wouldn't believe how vacant the practice area usually is. I have a reputation for practicing a ton and hitting lots of balls, and being on the practice green until I can't see anymore. You're right, the folks here on WRX are a different breed of golfer. What's that saying, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results"