Wedges - Grinds, Bounce, Leading Edges....Final Say

[FairwaysToHeaven]

I've been reading several old threads about the benefits and drawbacks of low or high bounce, sharp or blunt leading edges, etc. Seems that for every thread saying high bounce is great for diggers, there is another thread specifying that diggers need low bounce and blunt leading edge. Can we settle some of these basics....or at least come to a consensus.

 

I have a fairly steep swing, or at least take deeper divots on full swings. I'd like some suggestions on what wedges to go with. its hard to choose when I don't know what grind or bounce is best for steeper swings. i'm also changing my approach around the greens to more of a pitch which uses the bounce much more rather than ball back hands and shaft forward approach.

 

 

Mizuno has a reputation of having wedges which tend to have lower bounce, however they also have some pretty blunt leading edge. Some of Tom Wishon's previous posts mentioned that there is no reason to have a sharp leading edge. He also talked about increasing grinds face to heel to elminate or lessen ground interaction for steep swings.

 

Should steep swing players be focusing on higher bounce, or blunt leading edges. Anyone want to recommend wedges that have the blunt edge, or mention wedges that are known for sharp leading edge so I can eliminate those.

 

I'm planning to move from a 52/58 setup into a 50/54/58 setup. I don't need the options at the top of my bag as i can get by with a 4wd and 3hy. I'll most likely be playing full shots with the 50 and 54, and everything around the green will be the 58, bunkers included.

 

As far as grinds, Wishon mentioned that those clubs labeled 'tour grind' would best suit diggers as they have more grind. Anyone comment on the 'C' and 'U' grind of mack daddy 2. would one grind lend itself more or less to a steep swing, full swing, etc.

 

Lots of questions, but it just seems that when it comes to wedges the only thing ever brought up is how much it spins or what kind of grooves the face has. Lets talk about everything EXCEPT grooves and spin.

[Fade to Black]

Interested in responses to this myself.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1393899696' post='8791887']
I've been reading several old threads about the benefits and drawbacks of low or high bounce, sharp or blunt leading edges, etc. Seems that for every thread saying high bounce is great for diggers, there is another thread specifying that diggers need low bounce and blunt leading edge. Can we settle some of these basics....or at least come to a consensus.

I have a fairly steep swing, or at least take deeper divots on full swings. I'd like some suggestions on what wedges to go with. its hard to choose when I don't know what grind or bounce is best for steeper swings. i'm also changing my approach around the greens to more of a pitch which uses the bounce much more rather than ball back hands and shaft forward approach.


Mizuno has a reputation of having wedges which tend to have lower bounce, however they also have some pretty blunt leading edge. Some of Tom Wishon's previous posts mentioned that there is no reason to have a sharp leading edge. He also talked about increasing grinds face to heel to elminate or lessen ground interaction for steep swings.

Should steep swing players be focusing on higher bounce, or blunt leading edges. Anyone want to recommend wedges that have the blunt edge, or mention wedges that are known for sharp leading edge so I can eliminate those.

I'm planning to move from a 52/58 setup into a 50/54/58 setup. I don't need the options at the top of my bag as i can get by with a 4wd and 3hy. I'll most likely be playing full shots with the 50 and 54, and everything around the green will be the 58, bunkers included.

As far as grinds, Wishon mentioned that those clubs labeled 'tour grind' would best suit diggers as they have more grind. Anyone comment on the 'C' and 'U' grind of mack daddy 2. would one grind lend itself more or less to a steep swing, full swing, etc.

Lots of questions, but it just seems that when it comes to wedges the only thing ever brought up is how much it spins or what kind of grooves the face has. Lets talk about everything EXCEPT grooves and spin.
[/quote]

Do you want to play, or get educated, thats the question
If you have a digger style swing, and just wants to play, make it easy on yourself and go Scratch DD
If you wants to learn the basics of a wedge sole and how it works, read the pinned topic of wedge grinding for more info than i give you here.

For short we have 2 sorts of bounce
Static who is the sole angle / steeper swing = More static bounce needed
Then we have effective bounce who is a expression of sole area who works as bounce
Those too follow each other in standard wedges, but then we have the exceptions

Example. Tom Wishon has designed a Wide sole wedge who make a very high effective bounce who is good down in the sand, but the sole got a low static bounce at only 3 to 5.

Static is for angle of attack
Effective is for turf or sand conditions

A wedge sole also got several different curves or cambers, both heel to toe and leading edge to trailing edge

Picker style should have a deep curve or camber heel to toe
it reduces effective bounce since mid part will be lower than heel and toe, so its only a small area who works as bounce unless you comes deep on it, then heel and toe side comes to play

Digger style should have a almost flat camber heel to toe
It makes effective bounce higher since more sole area will be in turf contact from the start

Medium or Driver Slider should go for something in the middle of the too

Camber leading edge to trailing edge
Picker style should play a sole with a large camber here, where deepest part of the sole is in the mid
Digger style should play a sole almost flat where the lowest part is as long back as you have sole

Leading edge
Because of the camber heel to toe, a picker style would get a leading edge with a curve who is deepest on the mid, but we can make it blunted for smoother turf interaction on chip shots
A digger will by nature get a flatter leading edge because of the camber heel to toe, but wedges like Vokey seems to ignore the fact that a digger benefit from a blunted leading edge for forgiveness on fat shots, so for unknown reason they make it with way to much camber for my liking.

Go Scratch DD grind, and you get sole properties that fits your swing

[Cochese23]

Good cheap option for you would be a Callaway Slate Jaws CC grinds. I play the 54 with 16 bounce and it is perfect for me. I am pretty steep on full to 3/4 shots. I like to play low, one hop and stop type shots from inside 100 yards. On shots that aren't stuck cleanly or even down right fat, the club doesn't dig in. So the ball usually still gets to the green. Club has honestly saved some crappy swings that would have ended up maybe halfway to the green with other wedges I have used. Best part, you can score one of these wedges in great shape for less than $50. So if it doesn't work out, you aren't out a ton of cash

[KjBowen]

Simple explanation for me

This is basic so please consult a fitter for further info

Sweeper generally has lower bounce and a non rolled leading edge

Digger wants higher bounce and a rolled leading edge

Yes the post above about static an effective bounce and all that jazz is dead on but prob way to much info to process when selecting a wedge.

Look to get a custom grind if you like to open your wedges up (this is more important for the 52/58, 54/60 users) as you will be hitting more shots with the same club.

I am a digger and play 52/58
My 52* has standard grind and 14* of bounce and a custom rolled leading edge. This prevents the leading edge from digging and the bounce keeps the club from digging

My 58* has 8* of Bounce and a C-Grind so I can open the far whenever needed with no issues.

This works for me and the reality is wedges are 100% personal.
The only way a wedge will work is to get a few sets.. And spend many hours at the practice green

Look for :
turf interaction
Shot making ability
Sand playability
Yardage gaps
Spin

40% or more of your shots are spent with wedges and putters. If you don't commit to the bottom 3 or 4 clubs in your bag and always worrying about your driver swing speed, how far your 3 wood goes etc.. You are doing your game a disservice!

[RichieHunt]

A lot of it depends on the hosel lean at impact. If you're a better player, you're likely to have more hosel lean at impact and thus require more bounce. Dr. Rob Neal found that from 30-80 yards the average forward shaft lean at impact for a Tour player was about 16 degrees. That did not deviate much as he said that on the low end the forward shaft lean was 13-degrees and at the high end about 17 degrees. That means you'll need a bounce angle that can commiserate with that. That's why I feel most wedges and irons, even blades, are designed for higher handicap swings.

For me, I play to a +1 handicap and have more forward shaft lean and a steeper attack angle. So I have 16 degrees of bounce in SW and 27 degrees in my Lob wedge (Edel wedges).

For a 15 handicapper they probably have less hosel lean and a shallower attack angle with the wedges and can go with less bounce.





RH

[dcr147]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1393903322' post='8792421']
[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1393899696' post='8791887']
I've been reading several old threads about the benefits and drawbacks of low or high bounce, sharp or blunt leading edges, etc. Seems that for every thread saying high bounce is great for diggers, there is another thread specifying that diggers need low bounce and blunt leading edge. Can we settle some of these basics....or at least come to a consensus.

I have a fairly steep swing, or at least take deeper divots on full swings. I'd like some suggestions on what wedges to go with. its hard to choose when I don't know what grind or bounce is best for steeper swings. i'm also changing my approach around the greens to more of a pitch which uses the bounce much more rather than ball back hands and shaft forward approach.


Mizuno has a reputation of having wedges which tend to have lower bounce, however they also have some pretty blunt leading edge. Some of Tom Wishon's previous posts mentioned that there is no reason to have a sharp leading edge. He also talked about increasing grinds face to heel to elminate or lessen ground interaction for steep swings.

Should steep swing players be focusing on higher bounce, or blunt leading edges. Anyone want to recommend wedges that have the blunt edge, or mention wedges that are known for sharp leading edge so I can eliminate those.

I'm planning to move from a 52/58 setup into a 50/54/58 setup. I don't need the options at the top of my bag as i can get by with a 4wd and 3hy. I'll most likely be playing full shots with the 50 and 54, and everything around the green will be the 58, bunkers included.

As far as grinds, Wishon mentioned that those clubs labeled 'tour grind' would best suit diggers as they have more grind. Anyone comment on the 'C' and 'U' grind of mack daddy 2. would one grind lend itself more or less to a steep swing, full swing, etc.

Lots of questions, but it just seems that when it comes to wedges the only thing ever brought up is how much it spins or what kind of grooves the face has. Lets talk about everything EXCEPT grooves and spin.
[/quote]

Do you want to play, or get educated, thats the question
If you have a digger style swing, and just wants to play, make it easy on yourself and go Scratch DD
If you wants to learn the basics of a wedge sole and how it works, read the pinned topic of wedge grinding for more info than i give you here.

For short we have 2 sorts of bounce
Static who is the sole angle / steeper swing = More static bounce needed
Then we have effective bounce who is a expression of sole area who works as bounce
Those too follow each other in standard wedges, but then we have the exceptions

Example. Tom Wishon has designed a Wide sole wedge who make a very high effective bounce who is good down in the sand, but the sole got a low static bounce at only 3 to 5.

Static is for angle of attack
Effective is for turf or sand conditions

A wedge sole also got several different curves or cambers, both heel to toe and leading edge to trailing edge

Picker style should have a deep curve or camber heel to toe
it reduces effective bounce since mid part will be lower than heel and toe, so its only a small area who works as bounce unless you comes deep on it, then heel and toe side comes to play

Digger style should have a almost flat camber heel to toe
It makes effective bounce higher since more sole area will be in turf contact from the start

Medium or Driver Slider should go for something in the middle of the too

Camber leading edge to trailing edge
Picker style should play a sole with a large camber here, where deepest part of the sole is in the mid
Digger style should play a sole almost flat where the lowest part is as long back as you have sole

Leading edge
Because of the camber heel to toe, a picker style would get a leading edge with a curve who is deepest on the mid, but we can make it blunted for smoother turf interaction on chip shots
A digger will by nature get a flatter leading edge because of the camber heel to toe, but wedges like Vokey seems to ignore the fact that a digger benefit from a blunted leading edge for forgiveness on fat shots, so for unknown reason they make it with way to much camber for my liking.

Go Scratch DD grind, and you get sole properties that fits your swing
[/quote]Well said. Maybe you could add to it by posting a couple of pics that show what those static and effective heads and grinds look like and caption them for him as a reference when shopping for the wedges he needs.

[pmcuk]

[quote name='KjBowenWRX' timestamp='1393939513' post='8794173']

The reality is wedges are 100% personal.

The only way a wedge will work is to get a few sets. And spend many hours at the practice green

[/quote]

Yes, exactly this. Get a load of wedges cheap on ebay - when they're used for a few seasons they're cheap as chips. Callaway and Nike would be my first choices.

Then go to the short course with a handful of wedges and spend 2 hours hitting off all kinds of lies, smooth and rough, and out of a bunker. Try the wedges in the dry and in the wet. In particular try the wedges out with different kinds of shaft lean - that'll tell you which dig and which don't, and how you need to hold each wedge.

A lot of these wedge threads could be answered by the original poster themselves if they just played the wedges they talk about. This thread is a bit more interesting, though, and asks for theory.

[CallawayKid86]

Howard is a great person to listen to on this topic. I have a steeper swing as well OP, and I love the Scratch 8620 wedges. Currently have a 56* D/S and just picked up matching 53 and 60. I also love the leading edge and really everything about the Bridgestone J38 and J40 irons. They were excellent for my swing type and really helped me not dig too deep and keep the face square when I struck the shot a little fat.

[sirgil]

[quote name='dcr147' timestamp='1393943239' post='8794535']
[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1393903322' post='8792421']
[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1393899696' post='8791887']
I've been reading several old threads about the benefits and drawbacks of low or high bounce, sharp or blunt leading edges, etc. Seems that for every thread saying high bounce is great for diggers, there is another thread specifying that diggers need low bounce and blunt leading edge. Can we settle some of these basics....or at least come to a consensus.

I have a fairly steep swing, or at least take deeper divots on full swings. I'd like some suggestions on what wedges to go with. its hard to choose when I don't know what grind or bounce is best for steeper swings. i'm also changing my approach around the greens to more of a pitch which uses the bounce much more rather than ball back hands and shaft forward approach.


Mizuno has a reputation of having wedges which tend to have lower bounce, however they also have some pretty blunt leading edge. Some of Tom Wishon's previous posts mentioned that there is no reason to have a sharp leading edge. He also talked about increasing grinds face to heel to elminate or lessen ground interaction for steep swings.

Should steep swing players be focusing on higher bounce, or blunt leading edges. Anyone want to recommend wedges that have the blunt edge, or mention wedges that are known for sharp leading edge so I can eliminate those.

I'm planning to move from a 52/58 setup into a 50/54/58 setup. I don't need the options at the top of my bag as i can get by with a 4wd and 3hy. I'll most likely be playing full shots with the 50 and 54, and everything around the green will be the 58, bunkers included.

As far as grinds, Wishon mentioned that those clubs labeled 'tour grind' would best suit diggers as they have more grind. Anyone comment on the 'C' and 'U' grind of mack daddy 2. would one grind lend itself more or less to a steep swing, full swing, etc.

Lots of questions, but it just seems that when it comes to wedges the only thing ever brought up is how much it spins or what kind of grooves the face has. Lets talk about everything EXCEPT grooves and spin.
[/quote]

Do you want to play, or get educated, thats the question
If you have a digger style swing, and just wants to play, make it easy on yourself and go Scratch DD
If you wants to learn the basics of a wedge sole and how it works, read the pinned topic of wedge grinding for more info than i give you here.

For short we have 2 sorts of bounce
Static who is the sole angle / steeper swing = More static bounce needed
Then we have effective bounce who is a expression of sole area who works as bounce
Those too follow each other in standard wedges, but then we have the exceptions

Example. Tom Wishon has designed a Wide sole wedge who make a very high effective bounce who is good down in the sand, but the sole got a low static bounce at only 3 to 5.

Static is for angle of attack
Effective is for turf or sand conditions

A wedge sole also got several different curves or cambers, both heel to toe and leading edge to trailing edge

Picker style should have a deep curve or camber heel to toe
it reduces effective bounce since mid part will be lower than heel and toe, so its only a small area who works as bounce unless you comes deep on it, then heel and toe side comes to play

Digger style should have a almost flat camber heel to toe
It makes effective bounce higher since more sole area will be in turf contact from the start

Medium or Driver Slider should go for something in the middle of the too

Camber leading edge to trailing edge
Picker style should play a sole with a large camber here, where deepest part of the sole is in the mid
Digger style should play a sole almost flat where the lowest part is as long back as you have sole

Leading edge
Because of the camber heel to toe, a picker style would get a leading edge with a curve who is deepest on the mid, but we can make it blunted for smoother turf interaction on chip shots
A digger will by nature get a flatter leading edge because of the camber heel to toe, but wedges like Vokey seems to ignore the fact that a digger benefit from a blunted leading edge for forgiveness on fat shots, so for unknown reason they make it with way to much camber for my liking.

Go Scratch DD grind, and you get sole properties that fits your swing
[/quote]Well said. Maybe you could add to it by posting a couple of pics that show what those static and effective heads and grinds look like and caption them for him as a reference when shopping for the wedges he needs.
[/quote]

[sirgil]

For years 50+ I have tinkered with edges, not only wedges but all irons. I've gone back to the 30's and reviewed clubs and professionals of that day. One thing is not constant is type of turf conditions and course contours based on geography. As most of tend to play in same or similar course geography, then types of topography and turf will dictates needed engineering of clubs. Manufactures of the olden era designed a club for all but for the professional it was left much to there tastes and individual preference. Mr. Saracini once explained to me why not to practice short game shots from good lies. He explained easy shots from easy lies, great shots from rough ball positions, thin or heavy requires understanding of impact of the edge. As I look back on his comments, the more it made sense to develop the edge you need, not the store bought type. I conclude and to this day still have my edges individually ground to a "V" shape leading edge, which I found out later, Mr. Hogan also did. I have a variety of wedges 48-60 and primary use 52-55-59 low bounce with "V" edges honed to almost razor feel. Some are cambered and some are flat and used based on course condition of the day. Today's modern manufactures would cannot mass produce to this type formula for obvious reasons, but you can find fitter who can create what you need. I would suggest you take some old wedges have a "V" edge produced and tinker with it. See the difference for yourself