Diagnosing Ball Flight Using Divots

[knockdstiff]

So I don't want to utter the phrase 'old ball flight laws vs. new ball flight' but here we go....

 

My dad is, predictably, and 'old ball flight law' guy. Today he tells me that he's hitting iron shots left - as in start left, stay left, no sidespin.

 

He says the divot is going towards the target, so he must just have the face closed.

 

My response is not exactly - if the ball isn't curving, that means your face is square to your path, and that they are both going left of your target.

 

He insists the divot is pointing at the target, so the path must be online. Tried telling him if you hit it with the face closed and the path at the target, you'll get a shot that starts left and curves further left. He says no, divot is straight, must be face angle only.

 

In a concise and easy to understand way tailored to someone deeply invested in 'conventional' knowledge....Why is he wrong?

[McBogga]

Taking a guess at this one.

Is the divot "flat" or deeper to the heel end? Coming in too flat (or having too upright clubs) would tilt face to the left and could create this effect.

[TB07]

Divots are unreliable in determining path or face. The path is the sweet spot of the club in 3D. Can't really determine that based on divot.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1396888005' post='9038653']
Divots are unreliable in determining path or face. The path is the sweet spot of the club in 3D. Can't really determine that based on divot.
[/quote]

I agree with this 100%

[JimNewton]

That, plus you are talking about tolerances of 1 2 or 3 degrees. Not easy to discern things with that level of precision by [i]looking [/i]at a hole in a ground. Divots aren't very useful. As long as it's in front of the ball.

[Craig foster]

The method I use .. Stands by this .. I went from a 12 handicap to a scratch in 3 seasons analyzing divot and ball flight . The swing is just a motion .. Nothing more . Plane.. Angles .. Lag... Perfect impact alignments .. Are all negotiable . But the ball doesn't lie .. Nor does the divot

[bph7]

[quote name='Craig foster' timestamp='1396897887' post='9039845']
The method I use .. Stands by this .. I went from a 12 handicap to a scratch in 3 seasons analyzing divot and ball flight . The swing is just a motion .. Nothing more . Plane.. Angles .. Lag... Perfect impact alignments .. Are all negotiable . But the ball doesn't lie .. Nor does the divot
[/quote]

Lee Comeaux method I presume?

[Craig foster]

Yes.. Been with that man for 5 seasons now .. Once I witnessed him at a clinic .. And what he did . I nailed it

Plane doesn't exist .. All ball flight and divot feedback .
A million ways to do it .. But his nailed it for me

[bph7]

[quote name='Craig foster' timestamp='1396898988' post='9039997']
Yes.. Been with that man for 5 seasons now .. Once I witnessed him at a clinic .. And what he did . I nailed it

Plane doesn't exist .. All ball flight and divot feedback .
A million ways to do it .. But his nailed it for me
[/quote]

Good stuff. I have seen his videos and man does he crush it, glad its working out for you!

[Craig foster]

Thank you bph

Whatever method you choose .. Stick to it no matter if you hit it bad or good at the beginning . In the long run, you will get better . Takes time .. Took me 3 solid years .. 7 days a week

[knockdstiff]

[quote name='Craig foster' timestamp='1396897887' post='9039845']
The method I use .. Stands by this .. I went from a 12 handicap to a scratch in 3 seasons analyzing divot and ball flight . The swing is just a motion .. Nothing more . Plane.. Angles .. Lag... Perfect impact alignments .. Are all negotiable . But the ball doesn't lie .. Nor does the divot
[/quote]

So how would you reconcile this with what is now known about the causes of different ball flights?

My guess is it appears the divot doesn't lie, but unless you can bust out some kind of measuring device you're going to have a very hard time eyeballing it accurately. My dad is seeing a divot that is 'on line' within a few degrees, so he assumes the face angle to be the only problem, which is kinda what someone else also said.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1396888005' post='9038653']
Divots are unreliable in determining path or face. The path is the sweet spot of the club in 3D. Can't really determine that based on divot.
[/quote]

[quote name='JimNewton' timestamp='1396889761' post='9038847']
That, plus you are talking about tolerances of 1 2 or 3 degrees. Not easy to discern things with that level of precision by [i]looking [/i]at a hole in a ground. Divots aren't very useful. As long as it's in front of the ball.
[/quote]

I think these are about right....I'm going to attempt to merge these two pieces of advice next time this comes up (and it will).

[Craig foster]

I hit over 300,000 golf balls in 3 years (no lie) worked my tail off at this game . I know my divot and what shot it will produce . . I don't need fancy cameras /apps / smart phones and all those gizmos .. All I need is to watch and listen .. It takes time son .. Nothing comes easy

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Craig foster' timestamp='1396903620' post='9040593']
I hit over 300,000 golf balls in 3 years (no lie) worked my tail off at this game . I know my divot and what shot it will produce . . I don't need fancy cameras /apps / smart phones and all those gizmos .. All I need is to watch and listen .. It takes time son .. Nothing comes easy
[/quote]
Just playing devil's advocate.... It might not have taken 300,000 balls if you'd had some of those fancy gizmos and a good set of eyes on you. Sure you need to dig it out of the dirt, but it helps if you know where to dig. Welcome to the forum!

[shortstop20]

A single Divot can't tell you anything conclusive.

If there's a pattern in all your divots, then yeah, it means something.

[uW0tM8]

[quote name='knockdstiff' timestamp='1396839865' post='9035867']
So I don't want to utter the phrase 'old ball flight laws vs. new ball flight' but here we go....

My dad is, predictably, and 'old ball flight law' guy. Today he tells me that he's hitting iron shots left - as in start left, stay left, no sidespin.

He says the divot is going towards the target, so he must just have the face closed.

My response is not exactly - if the ball isn't curving, that means your face is square to your path, and that they are both going left of your target.

He insists the divot is pointing at the target, so the path must be online. Tried telling him if you hit it with the face closed and the path at the target, you'll get a shot that starts left and curves further left. He says no, divot is straight, must be face angle only.

In a concise and easy to understand way tailored to someone deeply invested in 'conventional' knowledge....Why is he wrong?
[/quote]
Try explaining it like this; If a straight path is 0 degrees, and the club face is 1 degree closed on a straight path, the ball with start straight but go left because the toe comes into the ball first. The path dictates the start line of the ball, and the face dictates the spin.

[JPGolf FL]

Here we go.......

[TB07]

Ohh boy!

[shortstop20]

[quote name='ashtonbrewer94' timestamp='1396926458' post='9043493'] The path dictates the start line of the ball, and the face dictates the spin.
[/quote]

Then how come the ball still goes in the air when I hit down on the driver? Or any club for that matter. : )

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='ashtonbrewer94' timestamp='1396926458' post='9043493']
[quote name='knockdstiff' timestamp='1396839865' post='9035867']
So I don't want to utter the phrase 'old ball flight laws vs. new ball flight' but here we go....

My dad is, predictably, and 'old ball flight law' guy. Today he tells me that he's hitting iron shots left - as in start left, stay left, no sidespin.

He says the divot is going towards the target, so he must just have the face closed.

My response is not exactly - if the ball isn't curving, that means your face is square to your path, and that they are both going left of your target.

He insists the divot is pointing at the target, so the path must be online. Tried telling him if you hit it with the face closed and the path at the target, you'll get a shot that starts left and curves further left. He says no, divot is straight, must be face angle only.

In a concise and easy to understand way tailored to someone deeply invested in 'conventional' knowledge....Why is he wrong?
[/quote]
Try explaining it like this; If a straight path is 0 degrees, and the club face is 1 degree closed on a straight path, the ball with start straight but go left because the toe comes into the ball first. The path dictates the start line of the ball, and the face dictates the spin.
[/quote]

[knockdstiff]

[quote name='ashtonbrewer94' timestamp='1396926458' post='9043493']
[quote name='knockdstiff' timestamp='1396839865' post='9035867']
So I don't want to utter the phrase 'old ball flight laws vs. new ball flight' but here we go....

My dad is, predictably, and 'old ball flight law' guy. Today he tells me that he's hitting iron shots left - as in start left, stay left, no sidespin.

He says the divot is going towards the target, so he must just have the face closed.

My response is not exactly - if the ball isn't curving, that means your face is square to your path, and that they are both going left of your target.

He insists the divot is pointing at the target, so the path must be online. Tried telling him if you hit it with the face closed and the path at the target, you'll get a shot that starts left and curves further left. He says no, divot is straight, must be face angle only.

In a concise and easy to understand way tailored to someone deeply invested in 'conventional' knowledge....Why is he wrong?
[/quote]
Try explaining it like this; If a straight path is 0 degrees, and the club face is 1 degree closed on a straight path, the ball with start straight but go left because the toe comes into the ball first. The path dictates the start line of the ball, and the face dictates the spin.
[/quote]

Oh now you've gone and done it....

I will add only that if what you are saying is true, my dad would be correct in his diagnosis.

Since you seem to agree w/ most of the other posters that his diagnosis is not correct...you may wish to reconsider your remarks.

[FullOfBrushMan]

I use divots to see if I am toe or heel heavy or thin/fat. That's about it in my book.

[rok78]

[quote name='knockdstiff' timestamp='1396839865' post='9035867']
So I don't want to utter the phrase 'old ball flight laws vs. new ball flight' but here we go....

My dad is, predictably, and 'old ball flight law' guy. Today he tells me that he's hitting iron shots left - as in start left, stay left, no sidespin.

He says the divot is going towards the target, so he must just have the face closed.

My response is not exactly - if the ball isn't curving, that means your face is square to your path, and that they are both going left of your target.

He insists the divot is pointing at the target, so the path must be online. Tried telling him if you hit it with the face closed and the path at the target, you'll get a shot that starts left and curves further left. He says no, divot is straight, must be face angle only.

In a concise and easy to understand way tailored to someone deeply invested in 'conventional' knowledge....Why is he wrong?
[/quote]

Amount of curve will also depend on centeredness of contact, clubhead speed and amount of loft. Easy to hit a straight pull with a wedge and not have the face and path line up.

[knockdstiff]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1397006339' post='9050707']
[quote name='knockdstiff' timestamp='1396839865' post='9035867']
So I don't want to utter the phrase 'old ball flight laws vs. new ball flight' but here we go....

My dad is, predictably, and 'old ball flight law' guy. Today he tells me that he's hitting iron shots left - as in start left, stay left, no sidespin.

He says the divot is going towards the target, so he must just have the face closed.

My response is not exactly - if the ball isn't curving, that means your face is square to your path, and that they are both going left of your target.

He insists the divot is pointing at the target, so the path must be online. Tried telling him if you hit it with the face closed and the path at the target, you'll get a shot that starts left and curves further left. He says no, divot is straight, must be face angle only.

In a concise and easy to understand way tailored to someone deeply invested in 'conventional' knowledge....Why is he wrong?
[/quote]

Amount of curve will also depend on centeredness of contact, clubhead speed and amount of loft. Easy to hit a straight pull with a wedge and not have the face and path line up.
[/quote]

True - I did mention when I was explaining this that it assumes a square hit - part of what he was complaining about was that the only iron shots he was hitting solidly had this tendency.

[oikos1]

[quote name='Craig foster' timestamp='1396903620' post='9040593']
I hit over 300,000 golf balls in 3 years (no lie) worked my tail off at this game . I know my divot and what shot it will produce . . I don't need fancy cameras /apps / smart phones and all those gizmos .. All I need is to watch and listen .. It takes time son .. Nothing comes easy
[/quote]


Good on you, Mr. Foster. A golfer can learn a lot, all by their lonesome little self, just by paying attention...

[Asics10]

Trackman info about divots

http://www.golfwrx.com/112812/understanding-swing-direction-vs-swing-path/