Did Hogan hate match play?

[xgolfx]

Ben Hogan did not fare well in match play situations on many occasions. Snead and Nelson beat him often.Was his game designed for 72 holes of medal play?

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[mocokid]

Charley, you're correct about Hogan vs. Snead/Nelson. In Dodson's book about the 3 of them, he doesn't talk at all about the Hogan/Snead 1954 Masters playoff, it was the last match up of the 3 greats, must have been a classic to see in person, as Snead won by 1 shot. Wonder if there's any video of the match?

[farmer]

He won the PGA at match play twice, so it must not have bothered him too much. As an aside, Bobby Jones didn't like 18 hole matches. He thought someone could get hot for 18 and beat him, but not for 36 holes.

[Soloman1]

I think Hogan often avoided the PGA Championship.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1397214120' post='9066851']
I think Hogan often avoided the PGA Championship.
[/quote]

After the accident his legs wouldn't hold up for the grueling consecutive days of 36 holes.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1397219105' post='9067227']
[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1397214120' post='9066851']
I think Hogan often avoided the PGA Championship.
[/quote]

After the accident his legs wouldn't hold up for the grueling consecutive days of 36 holes.
[/quote]

Ya after the accident he could barely last 36 holes.

[NRJyzr]

One wonders how he'd have fared if he'd been in that accident 50 years later. Maybe he wouldn't have had quite as much physical issues.

Easy to say that now, of course, no way to really know....

[Soloman1]

I think the US Open was still 36 holes final day through 1964.

[HoganApexBlades]

'64 was when Ken Venturi won in the sweltering heat and humidity @ Congressional CC.

[Forged4ever]

Though Hogan did pass on the PGA, the main reason that he didn't play in it in 1953, his miraculous "comeback" year where he won the Masters, US & British Opens was because the PGA actually over lapped with the British Open that year, with the PGA being played July 1-7 and the British Open being played on July 6-10.

As has been noted, Hogan often skipped the PGA, especially as his career wore on, and while his post-crash physical limitations definitely played a role due to the multi-day 36 holes/day competition, Hogan's self-professed greatest strength was "shooting a number," which encompassed meticulously planning and executing a strategy to achieve a certain score for a specific round on a particular course, even going so far as removing his 7i in the US Open at Merion because, "There are no 7i shots at Merion."

WTF?

LMAO.....

This is purely my opinion, though I believe that his obsessiveness & his, for lack of a better word, "control freakish" personality played into this mindset. He was super obsessive regarding creating a plan and executing that plan, down to the specific shot or stroke, to the point of leaving out a club that he had determined PRIOR to even playing the round, that he would not need. That's how confident he was of his plan.

The "control freak" comes into play because he could control himself, his play, and the course(at least in his mind), however to inject a competitor into the equation, which match play obviously does, now you not only have taken some of the focus and emphasis away from the course, you have taken away his self considered greatest strength, the ability of "shooting a number," where even if he focused on that number, say a 68(Par 72), he could shoot a -4, 68, and still loose.

He also noted that one could also shoot a lower medal score, and lose the match anyway, and that just didn't make sense to him. When told of the famous quote, "Medal play tells you who's the better golfer, match play will tell you who's the better man," he laughed and responded, "I'm very comfortable with my masculinity," LMAO.

So, I just think that Ben didn't like what he couldn't plan for and control, and another person was a hell of a lot tougher to control than a golf course, lol.

Just my opinion

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Forged4ever1' timestamp='1397679631' post='9106201']
...
As has been noted, Hogan often skipped the PGA, especially as his career wore on, and while his post-crash physical limitations definitely played a role due to the multi-day 36 holes/day competition, Hogan's self-professed greatest strength was "shooting a number," which encompassed meticulously planning and executing a strategy to achieve a certain score for a specific round on a particular course, even going so far as removing his 7i in the US Open at Merion because, "There are no 7i shots at Merion."
...
[/quote]

Wonderful post Richard. I really enjoyed reading it. I feel like I should say more, but that's all I got. :-)

Cheers!

Kevin

[Forged4ever]

Thank You very much Kevin!

He was a very complicated man, along with being a very private man, though he was an incredible Champion. I really love the mental effect that he had on his opponents.

I don't know that it was like Tiger, Pre-2009, however he definitely cast a large shadow, lol

Have a great week Bro

My Best.
Richard

['53 Precision]

"I don't know that it was like Tiger, Pre-2009, however he definitely cast a large shadow, lol"

From 1946 until the wreck on February 2, 1949 it's a better comparison to say Tiger was like Hogan, 32 wins in 3 years and 1 month. Exactly half of his career wins in 37 months, ended by a near fatal accident. 13 wins in '46, 7 in '47 and 10 in '48 and 2 in a month in '49. In three years Ben Hogan averaged 10 wins a season! I doubt we'll ever see anything approaching that kind of dominance again. Some will say the PGA was weak or thin, Snead was playing, Demaret was playing, Nelson played the majors, a lot of future hall of fame players week in and week out...Huge shadow...and only three players have won 10 or more PGA tournaments in a year and they were all born in the same year...Nelson, Hogan, and Snead...and Hogan did it twice!

[Forged4ever]

[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1397704234' post='9109153']
"I don't know that it was like Tiger, Pre-2009, however he definitely cast a large shadow, lol"

From 1946 until the wreck on February 2, 1949 it's a better comparison to say Tiger was like Hogan, 32 wins in 3 years and 1 month. Exactly half of his career wins in 37 months, ended by a near fatal accident. 13 wins in '46, 7 in '47 and 10 in '48 and 2 in a month in '49. In three years Ben Hogan averaged 10 wins a season! I doubt we'll ever see anything approaching that kind of dominance again. Some will say the PGA was weak or thin, Snead was playing, Demaret was playing, Nelson played the majors, a lot of future hall of fame players week in and week out...Huge shadow...and only three players have won 10 or more PGA tournaments in a year and they were all born in the same year...Nelson, Hogan, and Snead...and Hogan did it twice!
[/quote]In my opinion, He definitely played against a much more formidable field, as I believe that Jack did also. Putting their physical games and victories, majors and other wise, aside, I believe that Ben, Jack and Tiger shared one common tread that seperaterated them from ALL others, and made theirs a club of three-

Their mental game, mind set and supreme confidence.

In each of their minds, there was them, and then the rest of the world

Have a great season

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[Colonel_Bogey]

[quote name='Forged4ever1' timestamp='1397679631' post='9106201']
Though Hogan did pass on the PGA, the main reason that he didn't play in it in 1953, his miraculous "comeback" year where he won the Masters, US & British Opens was because the PGA actually over lapped with the British Open that year, with the PGA being played July 1-7 and the British Open being played on July 6-10.

As has been noted, Hogan often skipped the PGA, especially as his career wore on, and while his post-crash physical limitations definitely played a role due to the multi-day 36 holes/day competition, Hogan's self-professed greatest strength was "shooting a number," which encompassed meticulously planning and executing a strategy to achieve a certain score for a specific round on a particular course, even going so far as removing his 7i in the US Open at Merion because, "There are no 7i shots at Merion."

WTF?

LMAO.....

This is purely my opinion, though I believe that his obsessiveness & his, for lack of a better word, "control freakish" personality played into this mindset. He was super obsessive regarding creating a plan and executing that plan, down to the specific shot or stroke, to the point of leaving out a club that he had determined PRIOR to even playing the round, that he would not need. That's how confident he was of his plan.

The "control freak" comes into play because he could control himself, his play, and the course(at least in his mind), however to inject a competitor into the equation, which match play obviously does, now you not only have taken some of the focus and emphasis away from the course, you have taken away his self considered greatest strength, the ability of "shooting a number," where even if he focused on that number, say a 68(Par 72), he could shoot a -4, 68, and still loose.

He also noted that one could also shoot a lower medal score, and lose the match anyway, and that just didn't make sense to him. When told of the famous quote, "Medal play tells you who's the better golfer, match play will tell you who's the better man," he laughed and responded, "I'm very comfortable with my masculinity," LMAO.

So, I just think that Ben didn't like what he couldn't plan for and control, and another person was a hell of a lot tougher to control than a golf course, lol.

Just my opinion

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]
Terrific post. Regarding his obsessive attention to detail, I think I recently read that Hogan would spend his time before a tournament in his hotel room, inspecting the roundness, dimple pattern and paint on every golf ball he got to ensure they were uniform. People say he was an introvert and obsessed with detail. I suspect that at a young age he immersed himself in golf to avoid confronting memories of his father's death, and just never stopped.

I also wonder how much his defeat by Byron Nelson, in that infamous tournament when the two were caddies, played a role in his thinking about match play. As I recall, members at the club where it was held kept extending the playoff until Byron won, or that's the legend anyway. It'd be enough to make me hate match play, too.

[hankmoody]

I'm not surprised about the golf balls. But you have to remember the technology and QA is not what it is today. Hogan, as is Demaret and some others, carried a circular device they would use to check the roundness of their balls. Hogan also felt his McGregor balls were slipping in quality, and was part of his decision to visit Achsunet in 1952 (IIRC) and tour their factory.

[xgolfx]

the 1947 PGA was played at Plum Hollow in Detroit. Hogan started with 4 birdies in a row. He needed a par on 18 (never Played) for 67. He lost to Toney Penna who needed a 4 for 64. In those days, there was a bookie on the grounds. Toney"s friends knew he was on his gameand asked what the odds would be on the guy playing Hogan. The bookie was willing to give ten to one. Ernie Sabayrac said "I'll take $500". The bookie came back with "For that it would be 5 to 1". Ernie said ,"Ok". They had a helluva party and got Toney drunk. He was hung over and lost to Ky Lafoon something like 5 and 4 the next day. That is when golf on tour was fun and nobody was rich, but everyone was friendly. See the avatar I posted for the picture

CHARLEY PENNA

[mocokid]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1398184212' post='9144313']
the 1947 PGA was played at Plum Hollow in Detroit. Hogan started with 4 birdies in a row. He needed a par on 18 (never Played) for 67. He lost to Toney Penna who needed a 4 for 64. In those days, there was a bookie on the grounds. Toney"s friends knew he was on his gameand asked what the odds would be on the guy playing Hogan. The bookie was willing to give ten to one. Ernie Sabayrac said "I'll take $500". The bookie came back with "For that it would be 5 to 1". Ernie said ,"Ok". They had a helluva party and got Toney drunk. He was hung over and lost to Ky Lafoon something like 5 and 4 the next day. That is when golf on tour was fun and nobody was rich, but everyone was friendly. See the avatar I posted for the picture

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]
Charley, did Hogan & Toney remain on good terms after Hogan left MacG? Speaking of memorable matches, I'd like to hear about the Snead/hogan Masters 54 playoff, not much about this last major championship for Snead.

[xgolfx]

No is the answer to your first question. Regarding Hogan/Snead and Masters, Cliff Roberts and Bob Jones hated Sam. The croquet putting style Sam used was outlawed by Jones influence. Hogan was their guy. The calcutta pool was always the Roberts group owning Hogan. They tried to Steal the tournament from Herman Keiser by moving his starting time( to 1230 on the last day) even though he was the leader, and putting Hogan off later. Herman was informed only when he arrived at noon. He still won and collected more from the guy who bought him in the calcutta than the first place money.Sam was wronged when Hogan was named player of the year sfter the accident even though Sam won ten times(not sure of the number)

CHARLEY PENNA

[mocokid]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1398186550' post='9144591']
No is the answer to your first question. Regarding Hogan/Snead and Masters, Cliff Roberts and Bob Jones hated Sam. The croquet putting style Sam used was outlawed by Jones influence. Hogan was their guy. The calcutta pool was always the Roberts group owning Hogan. They tried to Steal the tournament from Herman Keiser by moving his starting time( to 1230 on the last day) even though he was the leader, and putting Hogan off later. Herman was informed only when he arrived at noon. He still won and collected more from the guy who bought him in the calcutta than the first place money.Sam was wronged when Hogan was named player of the year sfter the accident even though Sam won ten times(not sure of the number)

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]
Thanks Charley, Snead never did get the credit he deserved. Yes, Roberts & Jones hated Snead, not sophisticated enough for their taste. Funny thing, the way Billy Payne congratulated Bubba, kinda condescending, like 'we know who you are, try to act more mature', I don't think the Masters execs like Watson either. They were all ready to crown Speith after Round 3 as next coming of Jack, Bobby, Tiger, Hogan etc. etc., disgusting really.

[oldschoolrocker]

Mr Penna,
Once again your willingness to share your memories with us is greatly appreciated.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1398186550' post='9144591']
No is the answer to your first question. Regarding Hogan/Snead and Masters, Cliff Roberts and Bob Jones hated Sam. The croquet putting style Sam used was outlawed by Jones influence. Hogan was their guy. The calcutta pool was always the Roberts group owning Hogan. They tried to Steal the tournament from Herman Keiser by moving his starting time( to 1230 on the last day) even though he was the leader, and putting Hogan off later. Herman was informed only when he arrived at noon. He still won and collected more from the guy who bought him in the calcutta than the first place money.Sam was wronged when Hogan was named player of the year sfter the accident even though Sam won ten times(not sure of the number)

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]Thank You very much Mr. Penna for sharing the stories, which are priceless, and so enjoyable to hear!!

I was very fortunate to have had Pete Snead(to those not familiar, Sam's older Bro) as my Teacher, Mentor and Friend. He passed the day before my Birthday in 2006, and though that was a very bad day that year, I have since come to look at our 36 years together as a gift that I was very lucky to have. There are so many incredible stories that if not for men like Yourself and Pete, they would never be told.

Thank you again for sharing-

Have a great season Mr. Penna

Fairways & Greens My Firiend,
Richard

[Forged4ever]

[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1397704234' post='9109153']
"I don't know that it was like Tiger, Pre-2009, however he definitely cast a large shadow, lol"

From 1946 until the wreck on February 2, 1949 it's a better comparison to say Tiger was like Hogan, 32 wins in 3 years and 1 month. Exactly half of his career wins in 37 months, ended by a near fatal accident. 13 wins in '46, 7 in '47 and 10 in '48 and 2 in a month in '49. In three years Ben Hogan averaged 10 wins a season! I doubt we'll ever see anything approaching that kind of dominance again. Some will say the PGA was weak or thin, Snead was playing, Demaret was playing, Nelson played the majors, a lot of future hall of fame players week in and week out...Huge shadow...and only three players have won 10 or more PGA tournaments in a year and they were all born in the same year...Nelson, Hogan, and Snead...and Hogan did it twice!
[/quote]I was going to do this as an addition to my response to your post because the day that I responded to yours I was heavily medicated from treatments, my thoughts were jumbled, and those thoughts possibly worth noting were few and far between, lol

What I was referring to with my comment that you responded to was directed more at the players that Ben & Tiger faced, and their mind sets, either going into the rounds when they were paired with them, or the tournaments that they both competed in. I would absolutely state, and I believe, that Ben had many more "great(HOFers)" Players competing against him than Tiger did, and you just mentioned a few, with the other Players, such as Mr. Penna's Father, ready to take Ben on and down, if he didn't play at his best, and even times when he did indeed play excellently, men like Toney Penna played better, such as noted by his son above.

Tiger did not only not have the big guns coming for him every week, he did not have the Players such as Mr. Penna's Father, who, on any given day, could throw a 63-64 up in the final round and walk away with the trophy. Tiger's competitor's were best summed up by one of them, and himself considered a star, Ernie Els, who, and I quote, "When Tiger is in the field, we are playing for second place." Ernie Els was my favorite golfer prior to that comment. Don't get me wrong, as a human being, he's as good as it gets. I played a group behind him in a Pro-Am and he is a Gentleman's Gentleman. Though when I heard that comment, I was stunned. To think that is one thing, and I can't fathom those thoughts, and I don't care who the hell is standing across from you on the tee, though to voice those thoughts in a public forum, well, it stunned me. I lost all respect for Ernie Els as a competitor that day, and I realize that that may be harsh, however, these are my thoughts and feelings, not anyone else's, and they are what they are.

You and Mr. Penna mentioned Sam Snead, and I was very fortunate to have had his older Bro, Pete(Harry Welford), as my teacher for the better part of 36 years, and really after his passing in 2006, for another 3 seasons, because we had taped lessons and talks that we had, and I continued to use those till 2010, when my third reconstructive shoulder surgery caused me to change my swing and I had to look for another teacher to assist me in developing that swing, due to limitations from my surgeries, which caused me to "flatten" my swing plane.

Through Pete, I also got to play two rounds with Mr. Snead, and though he was 75yo(1987) and 77(1989) when we played, he played the back tees, though then they were the blues, as we didn't have the blacks then, and he shot a 74(1987) & a 78(1987) on a track that has hosted Tour events along with USGA majors, the last being the 2003 US Mens' Amateur. He was amazing, as was his swing. I realize that you Gals/Guys know this, though I don't know that the younger Gals/Guys do, and if they per chance stumble into this thread, they can see that there was a game pre-1997

In 1973, at the age of SIXTY-ONE, Snead became the oldest Man to make the cut at arguably, the toughest test that a Professional Golfer will face, the US Open, and obviously, that mark still stands today. Also, in 1974, at the age of SIXTY-FOUR, Snead shot a final round of 68 to tie for THIRD PLACE, three strokes back of the victor, Lee Trevino, in the PGA Championship. That also marked the third consecutive year that he placed within the top-10 of the Championship.

THIRD PLACE IN A MAJOR AT THE AGE OF SIXTY-FOUR YEARS OF AGE!!!

In 1979, Snead became the youngest Tour Player to shoot his age, when he had a 67 in the second round of the Quad Cities Open, and he followed that by shooting under his age when he had a 66 in the final round.

Please excuse me for deviating from Ben, though while I greatly respect Hogan's game and even more so, his focus, drive and intensity, Snead is my all-time favorite player, and I just wanted to let some of the younger golfers know just how amazing his career was.

As Ben Hogan said of Snead, "If I had his swing, I'd never lose."

There was more to that quote, though as Mr. Penna pointed out, Hogan did not care for Mr. Snead, and I choose not to include it.

As Mr. Penna stated, in 1950, Mr. Snead not only won 11 events, he also had the lowest stroke average of 69.23, a mark that would stand for FIFTY YEARS, until Tiger broke it in 2000.

Also as Mr. Penna pointed out, Mr. Snead's mark of 11 victories put him third, all-time, behind two of his contemporaries, Byron Nelson with 18(1945) and Hogan with 13(1946).

In my opinion, no period, before or since, had the Players, top to bottom, that this period did.

And it's also my opinion that if you gave these men of this period the clubs that these Players are playing today, they would crush, and I do mean crush, 95% of these guys, and it's got nothing to do with their physical swings, though their swings take a back seat to no one's.

Where these men had it all over these guys today, and I'll go back 15-20 years, though especially post-2000, is the mental game, the focus, drive and intensity.

HEART!

The Pennas, the Hogans, The Mangrums, The Sneads, and the list goes on and on, had it in Spades!

These guys today?

"We are playing for second place."

Try 15th, 16th, 17th, etc, etc, LMAO.

No, those guys were totally different animals.

Nah, strike that, LMAO-

They were a totally different species!

And as Mr. Penna said, they also had fun.

Thank You for reading

And Mr. Penna, Thank You for the thread!

My Very Best,
Richard

[Forged4ever]

"Elder Statesmen" & "Senior Specific Subjects?"

Wow, I'm one of You, LMAO

I was thinking more along the lines of my 68's, my black Oxide Scotty that I just blued and gettin back on the course, lol

The Elder Statesman is a shade above me, though I can get used to being referred to in such a manner very quickly, lol.

"Senior Specific Subjects?"

WTH are those?

ED, incontinence & getting up and down 4-5 times a night?

Oh Boy, this journey's gonna be fun

Until we speak again,

My Best,
Richard

[xgolfx]

Toney is my uncle. My dad was a home pro . 17 years as Tommy Armour's assistant at Medinah, Congressional, and Boca Raton. He was the pro at Beverly In Chicago for over 38 years.

In my opinion, Nicklaus had the toughest competition, Hogan had many hall of framers, and Tiger has the weakest fields to play against. My yardstick would differ from most.

The further back you go in time, the more difficulty was in the way of the aspiring pro. In the early years, Scots dominated entry. Toney started as a non paid apprentice sanding saplings into shafts. Pros changed in the caddie shack and were not allowed in the clubhouse until Hagen changed the situation with Prince George. Ninety % of the pros came from the caddie yard. No one had money and everyone shared car rides. If there was a tie, the money was split and the playoff was for the trophy.
Many home pros like my dad had talent, but not opportunity. He qualified for the Open and PGA over 20 times, but often never played. Why? He worked for Armour , and had to watch the shop while his boss played. Often, he could not afford the time off, (eg-to go to Spokane) ,or the money to go. He hit 59 of the 72 greens at Canterbury in the Open and shot 298. He was a better than average home pro player. There were dozens of guys like my father who only played tour events occasionally. Yet, many were winners. Tony Holguin, Claude Harmon,Herman Scharlau, bob Harris, Bill Ogden,, Herman Keiser, Jack Fleck were among that group. My point is that if you made the tour on a full time basis, you had guts, heart, and desire, along with ability. That was in the Hogan era. There were no courtesy cars, planes, equipment deals, and what's in it for me attitudes

In the Nicklaus period, golf blossomed. He played against more hall of fame players for 20 years. Palmer, Player, Casper, Trevino , Miller, Watson, Weiskopf, et al.

Woods fields have few hall of framers than either Ben or Jack,even with the recent additions being diluted (think Couples and Montgomery). Who has won what Jack Burke, David Graham,Chick Harburt, Johnny Revolta, Jug MacSpaden, Denny Shute, and countless others that play today? Today's players do not have the pride and heart that the older guys possessed. Jack and Ben never dogged it. They NEVER shot 80 when they were out of contention in the last round. Unless health was an issue, they NEVER withdrew

CHARLEY PENNA

[ScooterMcTavish]

Charley and Richard, thank you both for your great memories.

A reminder of the time when golf was played by gentlemen.

[oldschoolrocker]

Like others have said Mr. Penna, at least two books. Your insight really captures the time periods with this last one.