FLO'ing a new driver build

[cglynn]

About to FLO a driver build. Never done it before (this is my first club build) and was wondering what makes a good weight for the end of the club. I don't really want to risk my new driver head being flung off during testing. Any advice or tips are always appreciated.

 

Thanks

Chris

[High Draw]

I am really interested in this as well. Or anywhere you can buy a weighted laser and spline finder. Sorry to thread Jack but been thinking about this all day

[Arnie]

[quote name='High Draw' timestamp='1397690800' post='9107349']
I am really interested in this as well. Or anywhere you can buy a weighted laser and spline finder. Sorry to thread Jack but been thinking about this all day
[/quote]
The weight is usually a drill chuck with a small laser pointer in the chuck jaws and a small laser pointer in a shaft section mounted in the part of the chuck that gets attached to the drill.
If you need a spline finder I have an extra email me at arniesclubs@aol.com

[High Draw]

Thanks will do!

[cglynn]

I understand how to find and orient spine on the finished club, but is it necessary to know the spine if the shaft has been FLO'd? Or should I find spine as well so I know where the strong and weak sides are on the shaft?

Thanks
CG

[TomWishon]

[quote name='cglynn' timestamp='1397751820' post='9112275']
I understand how to find and orient spine on the finished club, but is it necessary to know the spine if the shaft has been FLO'd? Or should I find spine as well so I know where the strong and weak sides are on the shaft?

Thanks
CG
[/quote]

Forget the term "spine" - it's such a bad term for shaft asymmetry because it conveys the wrong condition that you are actually looking to correct. FLO shows you everything you need to find from the standpoint of wanting the shaft to bend forward on precisely the plane your swing caused it to do after you release the club. Spine gives the impression that there is a physically stiffer line down a shaft which is not true.

Under the rules of golf, all shafts are supposed to exhibit "similar bending properties in all directions". That never happens in shafts because it is so incredibly difficult to make a shaft that is both perfectly concentric and with exactly the same stiffness properties in all possible planes of bending - that would be what is called a perfectly symmetrical shaft. The proper term for when shafts do not exhibit is "shaft asymmetry" which means the shaft does NOT demonstrate similar bending properties in all directions. When that happens is just means that the shaft is stiffer in one or more different possible directions of bending and by varying amounts.

So to overcome the possible miss hit potential from an asymmetrical shaft installed in the head in the wrong orientation, one just has to hunt for a FLO plane. if the shaft oscillates consistently in one plane, then that means when you release the club and the shaft goes from bent back to bent forward, it will do that on precisely the plane of your swing path and your release - and from that, the shaft cannot ever be the cause of a miss hit.

TOM

[High Draw]

Tom,
In your expert opinion and experience, is it best to find the spine and then FLO using a laser or just start FLOing with a laser stopping when it goes in a straight line.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='High Draw' timestamp='1397840877' post='9119769']
Tom,
In your expert opinion and experience, is it best to find the spine and then FLO using a laser or just start FLOing with a laser stopping when it goes in a straight line.
[/quote]

Read Toms first line again FORGET the term spine - never mention it again, and dont bother to look for it.
FLO is the way to go, but to make it right you should use a CPM reader, but better FLO without than just install.

All shafts will have 2 sides who FLO good, and they are 90 apart or close to 90 apart, so when we use a CPM reader, we search for the first good line, mark it and take notes of CPM, then turn the shaft 90, and look at FLO again, and measure CPM if FLO is good, or tweak a little until it FLOes good and measure CPM. Then you know if there is any difference between the weak and the strong side of the shaft, and how much.

Most shafts of today dont have much of a difference, but then we have those "flyers" or shafts a bit out of normal specs, and both to identify them, and handle it right, a CPM reader and FLO is the best possible way to go before install.

[High Draw]

Thanks Howard! Do you have any recommendations of where to get a tool for measuring cpm for a hobbiest? Do you use this practice before doing any of your club builds?

[Howard_Jones]

For a hobbyist there is some low cost solutions from Kaufman, the Junior model
http://www.csfa.com/

Yes i do this on all shafts i instal except putters

[High Draw]

Thanks Howard

[Kelco]

Howard (or anyone else),

What is the process of finding the FLO plane using a frequency meter? What am I looking for in the frequency meter readings as I rotate and twang the shaft? Are the readings increasing, decreasing, or what? Can I confirm the FLO point with the frequency meter, or once I get close using the frequency meter do I go to a laser pointer attached to the shaft?

I'd appreciate any hints/directions you can help me with. Thanks.

[Howard_Jones]

Its a strait forward job.

Put the shaft in the clamp, and put a tip weight on
- Pull the shaft to one side, and let it free, and look how it moves
Turn it "1 hour" at the time until you find a position that looks good, and fine tweak shaft position until FLO is as good as can be

Mark the shaft with a mark on top of it - a line you can use when installing who shall be square to face angle
Measure CPM in this position and take notes
Turn the shaft 90* and fine tweak until FLO is good again.
Mark a new line on top of the shaft
Measure CPM in this position and take notes

Now you have both the "weak" and the "strong" FLO line.
Some shaft is equal or only 1 CPM apart, other shafts can have a larger degree of asymmetrical behavior

The opinion about what FLO line to use, the weak or the strong is many, but here is my opinion about this.
- In a set of Taper tip iron shaft, we dont have many ways to tweak for flex, and since 1 or 2 CPM dont matter much to where we use what, i use the line that fits the slope i want for flex, so some shaft might have the weak side target line, others the strong.
Lie angles and toe drop is to be tweak for each iron any way, so i go for FLEX slope as #1

On Graphites for hybrids, woods and drivers, i always have a "fitting club" so i duplicate the specs from this club as good as possible. That means one more time FLEX is important, and i DONT tip trim a shaft unless needed, because we cant really make a graphite shaft much stronger, but tip length influence on launch, so if a shaft is 4 CPM in difference between the weak and the strong FLO lines, i choose the side that match my flex target best. Toe drop on LONG clubs is less important, because we play lower lofts here, so again, i go for FLEX, no mater side i have to use, to prevent tip trim when its not wanted.

According to USGA rules, we might FLO and use what ever side we want for FLEX reasons, but NOT to make a influence on flight pattern. The rule is plain out stupid, so i will explain what this is, and what goes down.
A shaft design must be so that the shaft behavior is the same no matter how it is installed, so far so good.
But then we have those "flyers", shaft who happens to have some sort of asymmetrical behavior where CPM difference is more than just a few CPMs. We might choose "weak or strong" for flex reasons, NOT to influence flight.

Weak side target line will "close face better" and strong side "up down", will hold back toe drop = Draw Bias
Strong side target line will close less, and weak side "up down" will give more toe drop = Fade bias.

We might tip trim a shaft, who DOES influence on launch, and we might choose for flex reasons, but NOT for flight reasons, but who can judge WHY we choose the side we did? Rules like this is unneeded since it cant be judged if a shaft is installed illegal.

EDIT!

You only have to check "6 hours" since the "time" 180* is equal
If you want "labels down", turn the shaft so the label is hardly visible from "address" and start testing for FLO
As you turn the shaft and look for FLO, test all positions until the label becomes visible on the other side.
You WILL find a good FLO line with the labels "down", but not always strait down, but who cares as long as we cant see them from address?

[Kelco]

Wow! That's a great answer, Howard. I wasn't expecting something that thorough. Thanks.

[High Draw]

A big thanks from me also Howard! That was an amazing answer. Now I need to purchase the frequency meter! Thank you!

[cglynn]

Thanks guys. I followed the advice given and my build turned out great. Had a chance to play yesterday and hit my custom driver better than anything I have purchased. Proper length, shaft, and FLO really make for a great club.

Thanks again
Chris

[High Draw]

Can you share your experience finding flo? Did you follow Howards instructions? Also can you explain your gains whether it is distance accuracy or both? What is your club that you built?

[TomWishon]

[quote name='High Draw' timestamp='1397840877' post='9119769']
Tom,
In your expert opinion and experience, is it best to find the spine and then FLO using a laser or just start FLOing with a laser stopping when it goes in a straight line.
[/quote]

FLO tells you everything you need to know for the practical elimination of possible shaft induced miss hits on shots. In a shop environment, having a laser on the end of the tip weight as you rotate and oscillate the shaft to see the laser line move straight up and down is the easiest way to do that.

TOM

[High Draw]

Thanks Tom. I will be trying this very soon. I will have to save more of my pennies for a frequency machine. .

[cglynn]

I was asked, so I will share...I didn't follow directions here, mainly because I read them after I built the club. What I did was mount the shaft securely in a vice and attached the club head. I used some masking tape for a snug friction fit. I then twanged the shaft and watched the head. If the shaft was oscillating in anything but a straight line, I adjusted it maybe 15 degrees, realigned the head, and twanged again. I repeated this until the shaft was close to perfect FLO, then made smaller adjustments until it was as close to perfect FLO as I could get. Once there, I marked what is the new "top" of the shaft, and used that mark to build my club. (There are some good videos on Youtube that I followed as a reference).

Club components came from Maltby/Golfworks and consist of the KE4 ST1 driver, 10.5*, UST Mamiya Gold 55 shaft, S flex, and Royal Grip. The finished length on the club is 44 1/8". I didn't get a chance to really work with the club, as I played 9 with it the day after the epoxy cured, and literally, the first time I hit it was off the #1 Tee box at a local course. That said, I have played that course a lot, and know about where I land my drives. I was about 20 yds further, and much straighter than my old club. Now, my old club was a Dunlap, R flex, 420cc driver from 2003 that I got at the local sporting goods retailor for $50 on sale. I was never very good with it. I have also made some swing changes for this season, and I have noticed an improvement in distance and accuracy with my irons as well. Of course those irons are new to me as well (Ping Eye 2 +, black dot, R flex) so I think at this point there are too many variables to say if the FLO procedure made a huge difference in my game or not.

I will say that the new club felt better than my old club and was easier to hit. I didn't fell like I had to swing as hard to get the same distance, which is good, because when I swing hard, I lose control. I would rather hit the ball 265 and straight, than 285 into the woods, river, next fairway, etc. This club works great for that. I get 265 with almost no effort, and great accuracy. Will play with it more and see what happens, but so far, I like it.

[High Draw]

Thanks. I plan on trying this tonight. Quick question for you, when you twanged the shaft with the clubhead on were you lining the face up with the straight oscillations or did you just find the flo and then glue the clubhead on in the correct position in line with the oscillations?

[cglynn]

Sorry for the delay. I just found the FLO, then glued the head in the appropriate position. I always started with the club face at 90* to the twanging direction (playing position). I wanted to do all my tests with the head in playing position as that is how it will be used on the course. I know it probably makes little to no difference what position the head is in during FLO testing, as I know many builders use weights instead of the club head, but I wanted the weight distribution to match the playing position of the club for a piece of mind.

I don't know if it is the FLO, the shaft, the head, or a combination of the 3, but my build produced a really, really sweet club. I actually look forward to hitting my driver, rather than dread holes that require it. Now if only I could solidify my short game.

[vinerino]

[quote name='Arnie' timestamp='1397692754' post='9107523']
[quote name='High Draw' timestamp='1397690800' post='9107349']
I am really interested in this as well. Or anywhere you can buy a weighted laser and spline finder. Sorry to thread Jack but been thinking about this all day
[/quote]
The weight is usually a drill chuck with a small laser pointer in the chuck jaws and a small laser pointer in a shaft section mounted in the part of the chuck that gets attached to the drill.
If you need a spline finder I have an extra email me at arniesclubs@aol.com
[/quote]
I have a chuck and i know you put the tip of the shaft into chuck for weight. I am trying to find a laser that fits snugly into other end of chuck.
Any pictures or recommendations
Thanks

[vinerino]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1397849937' post='9120851']
[quote name='High Draw' timestamp='1397840877' post='9119769']
Tom,
In your expert opinion and experience, is it best to find the spine and then FLO using a laser or just start FLOing with a laser stopping when it goes in a straight line.
[/quote]

Read Toms first line again FORGET the term spine - never mention it again, and dont bother to look for it.
FLO is the way to go, but to make it right you should use a CPM reader, but better FLO without than just install.

All shafts will have 2 sides who FLO good, and they are 90 apart or close to 90 apart, so when we use a CPM reader, we search for the first good line, mark it and take notes of CPM, then turn the shaft 90, and look at FLO again, and measure CPM if FLO is good, or tweak a little until it FLOes good and measure CPM. Then you know if there is any difference between the weak and the strong side of the shaft, and how much.

Most shafts of today dont have much of a difference, but then we have those "flyers" or shafts a bit out of normal specs, and both to identify them, and handle it right, a CPM reader and FLO is the best possible way to go before install.
[/quote]
What is a CPM reader, where to buy and how to use it when finding FLO
Thanks

[jason9802h]

CPM Machine is a Frequency Machine. Cycles Per Minute. This allows your o find the flex of the shaft based on the value of the cycles per minute when you twang the shaft.
Almost the same idea of a spine finder in number form. Rotating the shaft to find the value around the shaft. The lower number position would be the spine, the weakest part of the shaft.

[vinerino]

[quote name='jason9802h' timestamp='1440764734' post='12223258']
CPM Machine is a Frequency Machine. Cycles Per Minute. This allows your o find the flex of the shaft based on the value of the cycles per minute when you twang the shaft.
Almost the same idea of a spine finder in number form. Rotating the shaft to find the value around the shaft. The lower number position would be the spine, the weakest part of the shaft.
[/quote]
Thank you

[shellbmb]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1398021979' post='9131551']
Its a strait forward job.

Put the shaft in the clamp, and put a tip weight on
- Pull the shaft to one side, and let it free, and look how it moves
Turn it "1 hour" at the time until you find a position that looks good, and fine tweak shaft position until FLO is as good as can be

Mark the shaft with a mark on top of it - a line you can use when installing who shall be square to face angle
Measure CPM in this position and take notes
Turn the shaft 90* and fine tweak until FLO is good again.
Mark a new line on top of the shaft
Measure CPM in this position and take notes

Now you have both the "weak" and the "strong" FLO line.
Some shaft is equal or only 1 CPM apart, other shafts can have a larger degree of asymmetrical behavior

The opinion about what FLO line to use, the weak or the strong is many, but here is my opinion about this.
- In a set of Taper tip iron shaft, we dont have many ways to tweak for flex, and since 1 or 2 CPM dont matter much to where we use what, i use the line that fits the slope i want for flex, so some shaft might have the weak side target line, others the strong.
Lie angles and toe drop is to be tweak for each iron any way, so i go for FLEX slope as #1

On Graphites for hybrids, woods and drivers, i always have a "fitting club" so i duplicate the specs from this club as good as possible. That means one more time FLEX is important, and i DONT tip trim a shaft unless needed, because we cant really make a graphite shaft much stronger, but tip length influence on launch, so if a shaft is 4 CPM in difference between the weak and the strong FLO lines, i choose the side that match my flex target best. Toe drop on LONG clubs is less important, because we play lower lofts here, so again, i go for FLEX, no mater side i have to use, to prevent tip trim when its not wanted.

According to USGA rules, we might FLO and use what ever side we want for FLEX reasons, but NOT to make a influence on flight pattern. The rule is plain out stupid, so i will explain what this is, and what goes down.
A shaft design must be so that the shaft behavior is the same no matter how it is installed, so far so good.
But then we have those "flyers", shaft who happens to have some sort of asymmetrical behavior where CPM difference is more than just a few CPMs. We might choose "weak or strong" for flex reasons, NOT to influence flight.

Weak side target line will "close face better" and strong side "up down", will hold back toe drop = Draw Bias
Strong side target line will close less, and weak side "up down" will give more toe drop = Fade bias.

We might tip trim a shaft, who DOES influence on launch, and we might choose for flex reasons, but NOT for flight reasons, but who can judge WHY we choose the side we did? Rules like this is unneeded since it cant be judged if a shaft is installed illegal.

EDIT!

You only have to check "6 hours" since the "time" 180* is equal
If you want "labels down", turn the shaft so the label is hardly visible from "address" and start testing for FLO
As you turn the shaft and look for FLO, test all positions until the label becomes visible on the other side.
You WILL find a good FLO line with the labels "down", but not always strait down, but who cares as long as we cant see them from address?
[/quote]

Just to clarify, after you find the FLO line you want to use, you are installing that in the 12:00 position in the clubhead correct? As in from address, it is facing away from you? Or 180 degrees from the adapter setting. Say if I want A-1 on my 915 adapter I want the shaft installed with my FLO mark 180 degrees from where it says A-1 on the adapter. Correct?

[Howard_Jones]

I test for FLO where the shaft goes back and forth horizontaly (left right or 9-3)
When i found a line i want to use, i mark the top of the shaft 12 o clock.
That 12 o clock mark is used to align with face angle. *
Thats why we put that mark at 12, not at 9 or 3 who is the direction the shaft shall play and the FLO test was done.


[attachment=2931474:Titleist BIAS.JPG]

This is how a Titleist Connector works.
Its the NUMBERS we must look at when we install the connector.

As you can see, Position 1 - 3 belongs to 1 line, and 2 -4 the other.
That means Fade and Draw connector setting is the same Flo line.

To align the connector correct vs our FLO mark, we have to turn the connector 180* since the "number" we want shall be aligned against the heads heel side, on the underside of the shaft seen from address.

For those who uses a Spine finder
- NBP facing 3 o clock (180* from target line) - Draw
- NBP facing 9 o clock (target line) - Fade

NBP mark (if put on 12 o clock from a 12-6 test) shall be alligned with the oposit lines on the connector (2-4) so your wanted setting ends up right when NBP is facing correct direction.

(When we use a spine finder we test for NPB 12-6, but in play we turn the shaft 90* to use that same bending line against the target with either the weak or the strong side of the shaft pointing to the target depending on how we want that shaft to play)

[vinerino]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1440914209' post='12233140']
I test for FLO where the shaft goes back and forth horizontaly (left right or 9-3)
When i found a line i want to use, i mark the top of the shaft 12 o clock.
That 12 o clock mark is used to align with face angle. *
Thats why we put that mark at 12, not at 9 or 3 who is the direction the shaft shall play and the FLO test was done.


[attachment=2931474:Titleist BIAS.JPG]

This is how a Titleist Connector works.
Its the NUMBERS we must look at when we install the connector.

As you can see, Position 1 - 3 belongs to 1 line, and 2 -4 the other.
That means Fade and Draw connector setting is the same Flo line.

To align the connector correct vs our FLO mark, we have to turn the connector 180* since the "number" we want shall be aligned against the heads heel side, on the underside of the shaft seen from address.

For those who uses a Spine finder
- NBP facing 3 o clock (180* from target line) - Draw
- NBP facing 9 o clock (target line) - Fade

NBP mark (if put on 12 o clock from a 12-6 test) shall be alligned with the oposit lines on the connector (2-4) so your wanted setting ends up right when NBP is facing correct direction.

(When we use a spine finder we test for NPB 12-6, but in play we turn the shaft 90* to use that same bending line against the target with either the weak or the strong side of the shaft pointing to the target depending on how we want that shaft to play)
[/quote]
So being LH if I found the high pressure point and kept it at 12 0'clock then NBP would be at 6 o'clock. If I was LEFT HANDED and wanted a DRAW, then I would take take spine and have it at 3 o'clock and NBP away from target. Opposite for Fade. Approximate after fine tuning for FLO.