Manual de la Torre Method

[IamMarkMac]

[quote name='c-ro' timestamp='1400292374' post='9311883']
I have just discovered Manuel's method and it really resonates with me.
His instruction to swing the club with the arms and let the rest of the body react naturally strikes me the most. My rhythm and timing have seemed to unify in a extremely natural way.
You hear 'the dog wags the tail' all the time. Perhaps Leadbetter's mantra in many ways.
MDLT seems to completely oppose that.
My single mental image while practice swinging - I haven't had this knowledge on the course yet - is to: [i]start my downswing using my arms to swing the club at the target.[/i]
I think it is going to help my mental game a lot!
I shall see tomorrow.
[/quote]

This is probably the single biggest technical change I've gone through.

I used to think that in order to activate the "big muscles", I had to initiate the downswing with a leg move and unwind from bottom to top. I could definitely swing that way and have had success but it just wasn't consistent. Quite often, the hands don't turn over or my hips are too open, leading to a wild slice or outright shank.

Using the club and upper arms as the downswing trigger, to me, feels more natural and has so far, been easier to time. On top of this, I find that I can still create the greater centrifugal force that was the main reason I used a leg and body-driven swing. It just manifests differently, i think.

[IamMarkMac]

[quote name='glcoach' timestamp='1399907761' post='9279081']
There is some good information here, but I respectfully submit that there is more going on in the golf swing than what is being stated.

This lesson would seem to work best for kids. If you picked up the game as an adult, I believe the temptation to over analyze and try to figure out what is happening will override what is being taught here.

These days we have the ability to measure...everything from club data to body data. This type of instruction is limited in its focus, it can help some folks, honestly, it helped me a little. The swing forward with the upper arms made my swing the arms to quickly and too forward never allowing the club head to catch up.

JMO, enjoy learning.
[/quote]

I don't disagree at all that there's a lot more going on with the golf swing. There's a lot of things that have to go right for your swing to come off correctly.

What I've realized through the MDLT method though is that you can't think of all those little things while you swing. I think the swing has to move into the realm of subconscious action to be successful. Just about every other method I've read about loves to give you an info dump which even if correct, I will later need to clear out of my head to swing correctly. At least MDLT begins with a kind of "Less is More" principle that tries to keep things simple.

[The Pearl]

My main struggle continues to be returning the club to the ball back on the inside arc and towards the target. I still have too many swings over the top using my hands and shoulders. When I think I am swinging the entire club at the target, more often than not, the ball is working left with a slight draw or pull.

[flybub]

After a week with these swing thoughts I find myself being straighter with a little bit better contact. However, I have lost distance and I don't know if that will come over time or not. I have always had a quick tempo and I have slowed myself down and am finding the center of the club face a bit more often. My 7 iron was always my 155-160 yard club but that distance is now my 6 iron. Hopefully my distance comes back as I continue this path but I guess time will tell. As my tempo has changed my swing speed has obviously changed and I'm concerned about the shafts in my irons being too stiff since my irons (mp53) feel a little harsh right now.

[1953hogan]

Hi guys, just joined this forum and this is my first post. I'd be very appreciative if juststeve or pearl could elaborate a bit on "swing the entire club using the upper arms toward the target." What sensation do you have when you do it right? What does it feel like to you?

Thanks very much.

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='1953hogan' timestamp='1400445941' post='9319355']
Hi guys, just joined this forum and this is my first post. I'd be very appreciative if juststeve or pearl could elaborate a bit on "swing the entire club using the upper arms toward the target." What sensation do you have when you do it right? What does it feel like to you?

Thanks very much.
[/quote]
Welcome to the forums! A good first question, and one that I share in wonder.

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='flybub' timestamp='1400445822' post='9319341']
As my tempo has changed my swing speed has obviously changed...
[/quote]

IMO, your natural tempo need not change. Of course, I can understand why it has as you are learning a new intention, but I would anticipate that your speed will come back the more you learn to swing the club toward the target without thinking about anything else. As I said in an earlier post, I actually gain 5-10 yards right off the bat swinging this way when I do what I'm supposed to do.

The draw seems to be the natural shape of this method. I consistently get this even when I'm hitting very far out on the toe.

Ryan

[The Pearl]

[quote name='1953hogan' timestamp='1400445941' post='9319355']
Hi guys, just joined this forum and this is my first post. I'd be very appreciative if juststeve or pearl could elaborate a bit on "swing the entire club using the upper arms toward the target." What sensation do you have when you do it right? What does it feel like to you?

Thanks very much.
[/quote]

OK, hi Hogan. JustSteve is the resident expert in all things Manuel, I have only read the book many times and taken some lessons from him, so anything I say, may be corrected or improved upon my Steve. As the saying goes, I know just enough to be dangerous. Manuel is very specific in his use of language, so words mean everything in his methodology. He is not a believer in "feels". The club and how you move it is the only thing that matters as "feels" change day to day. I am sure all of us using his method can relate. Some days you can feel exactly what he means by swinging the entire club using the upper arms. Some days, you can't quite attain that level of feedback.

Always keep in mind that your goal is to move the club properly and you do this by "intention" and trying to create the proper mental picture, not feel. The hands and upper arms are simply the vehicles used, you don't actually focus on swinging them.

I know this sounds a bit "zen like."

For me personally, trying to activate and consciously swing the entire club with the upper arms is almost a 100% recipe for disaster, so I think you should probably not get caught up in doing this. Remember, the ONLY thing that counts is moving the club correctly, so when I move the club properly and the result is a great golf shot, I have zero sense of what the body did to produce it. The BIGGEST step in adopting the method is trying to purge your swing of all body focused thoughts.

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1400451887' post='9319823'][quote name='1953hogan' timestamp='1400445941' post='9319355']
Hi guys, just joined this forum and this is my first post. I'd be very appreciative if juststeve or pearl could elaborate a bit on "swing the entire club using the upper arms toward the target." What sensation do you have when you do it right? What does it feel like to you?

Thanks very much.
[/quote]

OK, hi Hogan. JustSteve is the resident expert in all things Manuel, I have only read the book many times and taken some lessons from him, so anything I say, may be corrected or improved upon my Steve. As the saying goes, I know just enough to be dangerous. Manuel is very specific in his use of language, so words mean everything in his methodology. He is not a believer in "feels". The club and how you move it is the only thing that matters as "feels" change day to day. I am sure all of us using his method can relate. Some days you can feel exactly what he means by swinging the entire club using the upper arms. Some days, you can't quite attain that level of feedback.

Always keep in mind that your goal is to move the club properly and you do this by "intention" and trying to create the proper mental picture, not feel. The hands and upper arms are simply the vehicles used, you don't actually focus on swinging them.

I know this sounds a bit "zen like."

For me personally, trying to activate and consciously swing the entire club with the upper arms is almost a 100% recipe for disaster, so I think you should probably not get caught up in doing this. Remember, the ONLY thing that counts is moving the club correctly, so when I move the club properly and the result is a great golf shot, I have zero sense of what the body did to produce it. The BIGGEST step in adopting the method is trying to purge your swing of all body focused thoughts.[/quote]
Great response, especially the last paragraph.

[ericpaul2]

Ditto.

My implementation of this approach (I don't consider it an method) is to take the club back on the same plane as it is at address and then swing the whole club to the target. My thoughts addy are only of the club.

Over the weekend I shot my best 9 hole score ever (38) and could have shot my best 18 if not for some early season mental lapses on the front that lead to a three hole disaster stretch.

During practice, I do work on some body thoughts, mostly related to staying centered, but on the course it's all club, all the time.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='ericpaul2' timestamp='1400505459' post='9323009']
Ditto.

My implementation of this approach (I don't consider it an method) is to take the club back on the same plane as it is at address and then swing the whole club to the target. My thoughts addy are only of the club.

Over the weekend I shot my best 9 hole score ever (38) and could have shot my best 18 if not for some early season mental lapses on the front that lead to a three hole disaster stretch.

During practice, I do work on some body thoughts, mostly related to staying centered, but on the course it's all club, all the time.
[/quote]

Agree, "approach" is a better word than "methodology.

I think there is tremendous leeway for individual differences in creating the mental picture in how to deliver the club to the target. As long as you stay target focus and club focused it ALWAYS works. If executed properly, it is quite extraordinary how the body responds. I have been emphasizing trying to work on my mental picture of swinging the entire club to the target on the correct inside arc and when I do, the hips turn nicely and I achieve the holy grail (of WRX's) of secondary tilt.

[4thand11]

I have always been a fan of the less technical methods of swigning, De la Torre included. Also a fan of Knudson's book who also emphasises balance and lack of technical thoughts (although obv. his method is different). One of the quotes from Knudson's books that sticks with me is "In order to gain control, you muct give up control." I think this type of thinking applies to De la Torre also. You must eliminate the technical thoughts and just swing the club towards the target - makes golf so much more pleasing and fun to play.

Was wondering if anyone has seen this youtube vid by a teacher named Brian Sparks out of England. He has a book called "Positive Impact Golf" that also focuses on eliminating techincal thoughts and just easily swinging the club. I think his "dance du golf" drill (the funny-looking motions he does at the beginning of the video) is one of the most useful ones I've found for practicing the feeling of the smooth and easy turn and weight shift.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eURbeXGkeCU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eURbeXGkeCU[/url]

Also I am curious - if you watch the Sparks motion in the video, it looks like a more body-powered motion. However, when I apply it to my swing, the feeling is very free and armsy. It makes me wonder if the focus on arms-driven vs. body-driven confuses golfers sometimes. Just swing free and easy and I think the feeling might be slightly different for each golfer. In other words I wonder if some might have trouble with de la Torre's method because they become TOO focused on the arms (just as a Slicefixer student might become too focused on the body) - rather than just a free and flowing swinging of the club towards the target.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='4thand11' timestamp='1400512644' post='9323801']
I have always been a fan of the less technical methods of swigning, De la Torre included. Also a fan of Knudson's book who also emphasises balance and lack of technical thoughts (although obv. his method is different). One of the quotes from Knudson's books that sticks with me is "In order to gain control, you muct give up control." I think this type of thinking applies to De la Torre also. You must eliminate the technical thoughts and just swing the club towards the target - makes golf so much more pleasing and fun to play.

Was wondering if anyone has seen this youtube vid by a teacher named Brian Sparks out of England. He has a book called "Positive Impact Golf" that also focuses on eliminating techincal thoughts and just easily swinging the club. I think his "dance du golf" drill (the funny-looking motions he does at the beginning of the video) is one of the most useful ones I've found for practicing the feeling of the smooth and easy turn and weight shift.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eURbeXGkeCU[/media]

Also I am curious - if you watch the Sparks motion in the video, it looks like a more body-powered motion. However, when I apply it to my swing, the feeling is very free and armsy. It makes me wonder if the focus on arms-driven vs. body-driven confuses golfers sometimes. Just swing free and easy and I think the feeling might be slightly different for each golfer. In other words I wonder if some might have trouble with de la Torre's method because they become TOO focused on the arms (just as a Slicefixer student might become too focused on the body) - rather than just a free and flowing swinging of the club towards the target.
[/quote]

That is a great video. I agree with your last paragraph. I have, from time to time, focused wrongly on swinging the arms rather than swinging the entire club. For me, this always leads to a lack of body response. Manuel is clear in his book, not to have the intent of swinging the arms.

[juststeve]

[quote name='1953hogan' timestamp='1400445941' post='9319355']
Hi guys, just joined this forum and this is my first post. I'd be very appreciative if juststeve or pearl could elaborate a bit on "swing the entire club using the upper arms toward the target." What sensation do you have when you do it right? What does it feel like to you?

Thanks very much.
[/quote]

I know what it feels like when I swing the entire club in the direction of the target with my arms, but I won't tell you. It isn't a secret, but it is what I feel. There is no reason to suspect that I can either communicate my feeling to others in words, or if I could feeling what I feel would make your club swing in the direction of the target. We are all different and never more so than with regard to feels.

The idea is to get a fixed mental image of that it is to swing in the direction of the target and when you do it you will discover what it feels like to you. You can then use your own feel to practice and play with.

Let's do understand though what it means to swing the club in the direction of the target.

To Swing means to move the club back and forth on an arc around a fixed swing center. It is a particular form of motion separate from a pulling pushing or levering motion. We first feel the swinging motion through the weight on the string drill. Once you can keep the club and the weight together waist high to waist high you will know what that feels like to you.

To swing in the direction of the target means that the ball to target line is tangent to the arc at the point intersects with the ball. The club will be on an arc that approaches the ball from inside the target line, strike the ball on the target line, and moves back inside. Think if you will of the famous drawing of Ben Hogan swinging under the pane of glass. The club travels on an arc from the inside, strike the ball and moves back to the inside. Another way to picture it is the club moves from over the right shoulder to over the left shoulder striking the ball on the way.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[juststeve]

IAmMarkMac asks what the difference is between swinging the club in the direction of the target and swinging the upper arms in the direction of the target. The differences are:

`1. If the club is swinging toward the target it will send the ball in the direction of the target, that is not true of the arms. In fact, although it is not something to think about, for the club to be swinging toward the target at impact the arms must be swinging left at impact. This is because the club on its arc is trailing the arms, and the arc of the club is left of the target after impact. Its a circle you see.

2. A swing being on an arc has no straight lines in it whereas people who swing their arms instead of the club invariably end up swinging on a straight line which leads to pulling dragging and levering the club. You can play that way but its not what Manny teaches.

Steve

[ericpaul2]

Again, never took lessons from MDLT personally, just read both books (Manuel's and Hayes', and watched the DVD). The major image that changed the way I swung and the way it felt was envisioning that the handle, shaft and clubhead were all swinging together to the target at the same speed...as if the handle and the shaft were the string and the clubhead the weight in Steve's weight on a string example. On video, this is not how it looks...I have lag and the clubhead is moving faster, but that's not the image and intention I have.

Granted, I can think about my hands, or the clubhead only, or the release of the arms/wrists and create more "lag", but the results are much worse in terms of consistency, accuracy, and curvature and only rarely better in terms of distance.

Prior to that, I had an image of the clubhead moving faster at the bottom of the swing than the handle (rotating around my hands)...the supposed holy grail of lag. In retrospect, that's the definition of a timing based swing...the clubhead has to hit the ball at the right time in relation to the swinging of the hands/arms and rotation of the body. I consider it proven after 29 years of golf that I cannot find enough time to practice to make that image work for me.

[1953hogan]

juststeve and Pearl,

Thanks for attempting to answer my question. Both your replies are very helpful, and now a confession my part -- I am not without experience in this method. I have never taken a lesson from Manuel, but I do have both books mentioned here. Moreover, we had a club pro who had come to us from Milwaukee CC, where he worked under Manuel's tutelage. Prior to taking lessons from him, I had a homemade swing and actually managed pretty well, playing to a 6 or 7 handicap. As soon as I began the lessons, I showed substantial improvement, getting my handicap index down to a low of 0.5 and managing to stay in the low single digits for a very long time. Alas, our club pro moved on and we hired a new pro who played for the UW golf team under Dennis Tiziani (members of this forum will recognize "Tiz" as Steve Stricker's father-in-law and teacher). Our new pro is also a fine teacher, don't get me wrong, and I've spent several years sort of marrying the two approaches together. As I've aged, I've lost quite a bit of distance with the driver and while taking a lesson from our current pro a few weeks ago, he gave me a few keys that, for me, resurrected some of the old thoughts and feelings I had working with our old pro.

This has got me energized to find my old swing again, and your replies will help a lot when I hit the practice tee. Back in the day, while taking lessons from our old pro, he would stand and watch me hit, and as I swung, he would remind me "from the top, both arms to the target." This isn't quite the same as "swing the entire club using the upper arms in the direction of the target," and I am trying to do my homework and really understand the method before getting committed again.

At any rate, thanks for your help. Much appreciated!

[1953hogan]

[quote name='ericpaul2' timestamp='1400523314' post='9324919']
Again, never took lessons from MDLT personally, just read both books (Manuel's and Hayes', and watched the DVD). The major image that changed the way I swung and the way it felt was envisioning that the handle, shaft and clubhead were all swinging together to the target at the same speed...as if the handle and the shaft were the string and the clubhead the weight in Steve's weight on a string example. On video, this is not how it looks...I have lag and the clubhead is moving faster, but that's not the image and intention I have.

Granted, I can think about my hands, or the clubhead only, or the release of the arms/wrists and create more "lag", but the results are much worse in terms of consistency, accuracy, and curvature and only rarely better in terms of distance.

Prior to that, I had an image of the clubhead moving faster at the bottom of the swing than the handle (rotating around my hands)...the supposed holy grail of lag. In retrospect, that's the definition of a timing based swing...the clubhead has to hit the ball at the right time in relation to the swinging of the hands/arms and rotation of the body. I consider it proven after 29 years of golf that I cannot find enough time to practice to make that image work for me.
[/quote]

Your description really hits home with me and will also be very helpful. While I have long been a practitioner of a method close the Manuel's, I realize now that it is not exactly what he teaches. Over the years, when I've thought only of swinging the clubhead, I've run into trouble with being too armsy without body turn going back. I believe thinking of swinging the whole club will help to engage my body back into the swing again. When I'm playing, I don't think about body positions, only about swinging to the target, but I think your post will help to clarify some of my thoughts and feelings as I practice. Thanks for the help.

[sjsdogsrule]

Are the methods in this video similar to the MDLT methods?
He has two skills he advocates:
Swing clubhead freely, fluidly, fast.
Strike ball with swinging clubhead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w00dSxmFaw

[tm3]

that guy with the "3 F" swing is interesting

[i*windows]

this is a great thread. could someone please explain the idea of starting the downswing with the arms ie. the bits between the shoulders and the elbows. I've read about it, but I don't understand it at all.

" Don't swing your upper arms at the target. That will only work for a little bit. Swing the club in the direction of the target with your upper arms. That will work always"

is this the same as

Is the idea feeling that from the top of the backswing, I just swing the arms along the path and the club follows to the target, taking the hands out of the swing...

[Jersey golfer]

[quote name='i*windows' timestamp='1400592109' post='9330697']
this is a great thread. could someone please explain the idea of starting the downswing with the arms ie. the bits between the shoulders and the elbows. I've read about it, but I don't understand it at all. Is the idea feeling that from the top of the backswing, I just swing the arms along the path to the target and the hands, club follow behind?
[/quote]

If I understand it correctly, your intention is not to swing the arms along the path but to use your arms to swing the club towards the target. The feeling of using ones arms can be felt by extending your arm straight our in front of you and moving it from side to side. If my interpretation is incorrect I hope Juststeve or Pearl will chime in.

[juststeve]

[quote name='i*windows' timestamp='1400592109' post='9330697']
this is a great thread. could someone please explain the idea of starting the downswing with the arms ie. the bits between the shoulders and the elbows. I've read about it, but I don't understand it at all.

" Don't swing your upper arms at the target. That will only work for a little bit. Swing the club in the direction of the target with your upper arms. That will work always"

is this the same as

Is the idea feeling that from the top of the backswing, I just swing the arms along the path and the club follows to the target, taking the hands out of the swing...
[/quote]

There are a lot of ways to swing a golf club and play well. That coupled with the fact that most golfers flit from one perfectly good method to the next is why so few play well. You must pick one method and practice that until you do it very well. Execution is more important that what method you choose.

Turning to the way Manny teaches, his focus is on what the golf club does. We do not concern ourselves with what our bodies are are doing, only with how the club is swinging. That is because Manny has taught us and we believe that if the club is moving properly the shot will turn out fine regardless of how our body is moving. Focus is always on the club.

It happens that with our focus on the club swinging the club properly will result in a reaction from our bodies that while individual will closely resemble the positions so many golfers strive to create. When I swing the club back in the direction of my right shoulder using both hands I arrive at the top with my shoulders turned about 90 degrees, my hips about 45 degrees and my weight into the right instep. If I didn't tell you different you would think I shifted my weight and turned my shoulder, but all I did was swing the club back in the direction of my right shoulder using both hands. At the finish of my swing I am erect, facing the target, almost all of my weight solidly on the left foot. All of those things happened, without any intention on my part, because I swung the club forward, in the direction of the target, in one continuous motion, using both arms.

Will my body move the way Adams Scott's body moves? Why should it? We have different bodies. The way my body moves is the way it must move when I swing the club in the direction of the target. Mimicking the way someone else moves their body when they swing the club toward the target is not likely to produce the same result for me. Therefore, Manny doesn't teach model positions, he teaches us to swing the club.

No one has to follow Manny, but if you choose to focus on what the club does to the exclusion of anything else.

Steve

[flybub]

I played in an outing yesterday (4 man scramble) and focused on the club and what it was doing instead of manipulating my body like I have been in the past. I hit some good shots but I also hit a bunch of really really bad shots. I'm still 5-10 yards shorter sometimes more with each club and I certainly don't have the power I had. I was just as inconsistent with a body powered swing but when I caught one flush I knew it. The ball felt soft and I could hear it hissing through the air on a nice trajectory. The ones I feel I hit well now look like lob shots. There is not much spin with my irons and they don't go near as high as what I'm used to. When I focus on speeding up the club I either drive the ball in the ground 5 feet in front of me or I chunk it something fierce. Still not sure if its a shaft issue or not. I have a set Callaway Razr X irons at home I'm going to try that have a softer flex in them and see if that makes a difference. If I shoot better scores and lose a little bit of distance that's one thing, but my scores have remained the same except I'm shorter. I hate the feeling of pulling a 7 iron from 140 yards when I usually pulled a 9. I really like the effortless/thoughtless swing I am working on but I want my distance and power back.

[juststeve]

[quote name='flybub' timestamp='1400602915' post='9332127']
I played in an outing yesterday (4 man scramble) and focused on the club and what it was doing instead of manipulating my body like I have been in the past. I hit some good shots but I also hit a bunch of really really bad shots. I'm still 5-10 yards shorter sometimes more with each club and I certainly don't have the power I had. I was just as inconsistent with a body powered swing but when I caught one flush I knew it. The ball felt soft and I could hear it hissing through the air on a nice trajectory. The ones I feel I hit well now look like lob shots. There is not much spin with my irons and they don't go near as high as what I'm used to. When I focus on speeding up the club I either drive the ball in the ground 5 feet in front of me or I chunk it something fierce. Still not sure if its a shaft issue or not. I have a set Callaway Razr X irons at home I'm going to try that have a softer flex in them and see if that makes a difference. If I shoot better scores and lose a little bit of distance that's one thing, but my scores have remained the same except I'm shorter. I hate the feeling of pulling a 7 iron from 140 yards when I usually pulled a 9. I really like the effortless/thoughtless swing I am working on but I want my distance and power back.
[/quote]

Sounds like you haven't exactly mastered the new swing yet. I assure you that there is nothing inherent in the method that will prevent you from hitting the ball as long as you personally are capable of. . When I was a lot younger, (I'm 66 now) I was very long for the time and with the equipment and balls we had. Mastery does take time and practice though, although I would contend less time and practice than most other methods. Keep at it.

Steve

[4thand11]

[quote name='flybub' timestamp='1400602915' post='9332127']
I played in an outing yesterday (4 man scramble) and focused on the club and what it was doing instead of manipulating my body like I have been in the past. I hit some good shots but I also hit a bunch of really really bad shots. I'm still 5-10 yards shorter sometimes more with each club and I certainly don't have the power I had. I was just as inconsistent with a body powered swing but when I caught one flush I knew it. The ball felt soft and I could hear it hissing through the air on a nice trajectory. The ones I feel I hit well now look like lob shots. There is not much spin with my irons and they don't go near as high as what I'm used to. When I focus on speeding up the club I either drive the ball in the ground 5 feet in front of me or I chunk it something fierce. Still not sure if its a shaft issue or not. I have a set Callaway Razr X irons at home I'm going to try that have a softer flex in them and see if that makes a difference. If I shoot better scores and lose a little bit of distance that's one thing, but my scores have remained the same except I'm shorter. I hate the feeling of pulling a 7 iron from 140 yards when I usually pulled a 9. I really like the effortless/thoughtless swing I am working on but I want my distance and power back.
[/quote]

Yeah I think it's just a matter of practice and getting the feel of the new swing. I felt the same at first, how can this swing possibly generate any power? But done correctly it's as long or longer than my old swing.

The feeling I have is that the club swings free and easy - but not slow. Trying to speed the club up as you mentioned is usually self-defeating as it causes tension which kills speed and power. Just swing free and easy, once you get the right contact you'll start to get the feel of it.

I highly recommend the drill posted in the "Easiest Swing in Golf" video I linked to above - really helped me practice the smooth free-flowing arm motion.

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1400605022' post='9332369']
[quote name='flybub' timestamp='1400602915' post='9332127']
I played in an outing yesterday (4 man scramble) and focused on the club and what it was doing instead of manipulating my body like I have been in the past. I hit some good shots but I also hit a bunch of really really bad shots. I'm still 5-10 yards shorter sometimes more with each club and I certainly don't have the power I had. I was just as inconsistent with a body powered swing but when I caught one flush I knew it. The ball felt soft and I could hear it hissing through the air on a nice trajectory. The ones I feel I hit well now look like lob shots. There is not much spin with my irons and they don't go near as high as what I'm used to. When I focus on speeding up the club I either drive the ball in the ground 5 feet in front of me or I chunk it something fierce. Still not sure if its a shaft issue or not. I have a set Callaway Razr X irons at home I'm going to try that have a softer flex in them and see if that makes a difference. If I shoot better scores and lose a little bit of distance that's one thing, but my scores have remained the same except I'm shorter. I hate the feeling of pulling a 7 iron from 140 yards when I usually pulled a 9. I really like the effortless/thoughtless swing I am working on but I want my distance and power back.
[/quote]

Sounds like you haven't exactly mastered the new swing yet. I assure you that there is nothing inherent in the method that will prevent you from hitting the ball as long as you personally are capable of. . When I was a lot younger, (I'm 66 now) I was very long for the time and with the equipment and balls we had. Mastery does take time and practice though, although I would contend less time and practice than most other methods. Keep at it.

Steve
[/quote]
Just wanna echo Steve's comments here - Manuel's method won't preclude you from a high swing speed. If you do wish to this with it, give it time. I think the thing I have learned and has been emphasized to me within this thread is to pick a method that suits you and stick with it.

Center contact comes easy to me with a Ballard pattern, and it's a way to get my physically challenged body involved in the swing while avoiding a ton of pain. Manuel's is a fine way to play, and anyone who loves its simplicity and common sense should see it through, not "flit" as Steve has said. I will continue following these types of threads. A ton to be learned within them.

Ryan

[lsh]

[quote name='flybub' timestamp='1400602915' post='9332127']
I played in an outing yesterday (4 man scramble) and focused on the club and what it was doing instead of manipulating my body like I have been in the past. I hit some good shots but I also hit a bunch of really really bad shots. I'm still 5-10 yards shorter sometimes more with each club and I certainly don't have the power I had. I was just as inconsistent with a body powered swing but when I caught one flush I knew it. The ball felt soft and I could hear it hissing through the air on a nice trajectory. The ones I feel I hit well now look like lob shots. There is not much spin with my irons and they don't go near as high as what I'm used to. When I focus on speeding up the club I either drive the ball in the ground 5 feet in front of me or I chunk it something fierce. Still not sure if its a shaft issue or not. I have a set Callaway Razr X irons at home I'm going to try that have a softer flex in them and see if that makes a difference. If I shoot better scores and lose a little bit of distance that's one thing, but my scores have remained the same except I'm shorter. I hate the feeling of pulling a 7 iron from 140 yards when I usually pulled a 9. I really like the effortless/thoughtless swing I am working on but I want my distance and power back.
[/quote]
I have also been trying to implement the swing the club back with the hands and forward with the arms. When I hit the ball straight it was higher than normal & shorter by 1 - 2 clubs.
I believe I was picking the club up too much with my hands and not getting any turn. Last night for the last 4 holes I focused on taking the club back on plane and keeping it more in front of my chest which made my torso wind up. Then when I swung the club toward my shots improved and I gained the distance back. I did not feel like I was winding up with my torso. I was allowing the torso to wind up.
Right or wrong ? I will find out this weekend.

[i*windows]

"There are a lot of ways to swing a golf club and play well. That coupled with the fact that most golfers flit from one perfectly good method to the next is why so few play well. You must pick one method and practice that until you do it very well. Execution is more important that what method you choose."

I couldn't agree more with this statement, I have developed my own method which is a mix of all sorts of things which I find work for me, backswing is just throw the club over my shoulder and sounds very much like whats going on with this method. I try to match the downswing but this is more hands focus'd, pulling the club, if I could make it as smooth as the backswing then I would be happy.

I gave up on position body swinging some time ago and think the only way forward (for me) is to let the body react to the swinging of the club. I followed David Blair quite a bit and he has a similar methodology which I like a lot.

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='i*windows' timestamp='1400606883' post='9332623']
I try to match the downswing but this is more hands focus'd, pulling the club, if I could make it as smooth as the backswing then I would be happy.
[/quote]
Just curious here - do you mean your downswing is more hands-focused, or Manuel's? Just asking because the latter wouldn't be true; that would be a slight misinterpretation.