Manual de la Torre Method

[Cicero]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1406728028' post='9816247']Barry, it's $10 for kindle on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Golf-Swing-Manuel-Torre/dp/1886346518/ref=la_B001JP0XBG_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406727868&sr=1-1

Decided to re-do those videos...they were worthless. Anyway, I think I'm beginning to understand the feeling of back with the hands, forward with the arms. Finally beginning to feel comfortable hitting off the ground rather than teeing up, and my shots are becoming more consistent. What do you trained eyes see?

http://youtu.be/Eg8ewTtsQhs
http://youtu.be/6bNw590PbHU[/quote]

You're looking more comfortable. One thing I would point out is that you seem to be very focused on the ball. You never look at the target until the ball is in the air; remember, your focus on the forward swing is to swing the entire club in the direction of the target using the arms. The ball just gets in the way. So before you hit the ball, I would take a look at the target, maintain that picture, and swing the club toward it. The ball isn't the target; the place you're trying to send it is the target. This is no small distinction.

[juststeve]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1406728028' post='9816247']
Barry, it's $10 for kindle on amazon: [url="http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Golf-Swing-Manuel-Torre/dp/1886346518/ref=la_B001JP0XBG_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406727868&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co...06727868&sr=1-1[/url]

Decided to re-do those videos...they were worthless. Anyway, I think I'm beginning to understand the feeling of back with the hands, forward with the arms. Finally beginning to feel comfortable hitting off the ground rather than teeing up, and my shots are becoming more consistent. What do you trained eyes see?

[media=]http://youtu.be/Eg8ewTtsQhs[/media]
[media=]http://youtu.be/6bNw590PbHU[/media]
[/quote]

Rondo01

Looking better. You might think about maintaining the radius of your swing better than you are doing. Manny would probably tell you top keep your hands away from your head at the top of the swing. Someone else might focus on keeping your right elbow a bit straighter, no less than a 90 degree angle at the top. If you let the radius get narrow in the back swing you have to restore it before impact and that's just one more complication.

Keep up the good work.

Steve

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1406555686' post='9800509']Good first efforts. It appears that there is a bit more tension in the arms than ideal. Soft arms = speed =distance. Love to see some shots with a ball.

Steve[/quote]
I intend to get to the range this week. With a ball the miss is a push slice, and I play with a weak grip.

Thanks!

[oldschoolrocker]

Good morning,
Long time listener, first time caller, to this thread.
Have always played my "best" golf when swinging the club, but still was high maintenance due to trying to manage too many puzzle pieces. When the timing was on it was golden, when it wasn't it was trash.
Adapting well to the simpler concepts and philosophy of MDLT.
Earliest revelations for me are the ease of a correct "at the top," and "finish position," both of which are way more in balance, irregardless of swing speed. I have no fear of stomping on the gas and just enjoying the ride.
The debunking of a bent back leg was simply liberating!
Thanks to all who contribute and looking forward to my new journey.

[oldschoolrocker]

Got the book. Nice read, better than most instructional books.
I must say my stumbling point at the moment is with the driver. Still wanting to use to much lever and hit, but when my swing thought is to swing the entire club, from butt to clubhead the lever action disappears and the swing is much more in accordance with instruction. At least in my neophyte stage at the moment it seems that way. Any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.

[MikeG]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1406815898' post='9823699']
Good morning,
Long time listener, first time caller, to this thread.
Have always played my "best" golf swinging the club, but still was high maintenance due to trying to manage too many puzzle pieces. When the timing was on it was golden, when it wasn't it was trash.
Adapting well to the simpler concepts and philosophy of MDLT.
Earliest revelations for me are the ease of a correct "at the top," and "finish position," both of which are way more in balance, irregardless of swing speed. I have no fear of stomping on the gas and just enjoying the ride.
The debunking of a bent back leg was simply liberating!
Thanks to all who contribute and looking forward to my new journey.
[/quote]
Good luck with this OSR. Our stories are similar. I've been a "swing the club" guy for most of my time playing this game, and I've faced the same problems as you. Very hot/cold with my ballstriking. I tried the MDLT thing about 7 years ago. Read the book, went to the range, and shanked 18 out of 20 short irons. No harm/no foul. I scrapped it and moved on.
I did hang onto the book and let it collect dust in the years since (along with most of the other instruction books I've read). Although I thought MDLT wasn't for me, I have enjoyed reading about the success Steve and others have experienced.
My game hasn't changed much. Still hot and cold, but this year I've reached the end of my patience for the streaks of thins and fats...especially the fats. My hips get out in front of everything else, and depending on what the rest of my body is doing I'm either hitting the ball on the first groove or I'm a little behind it.
In a very roundabout way...way too long to explain, but thanks iteach, I'm tiptoeing into MDLT. My only deviation is the takeaway. I have a big shoulder turn. I'm 51 now and don't remember the earliest days, but my dad says when I was 9 years old I had that big, early shoulder cranking turn that just came naturally, so I do have trouble with MDLT's hands takeaway, because they have a tendency to get way ahead of everything else, and I end up with my arms behind me like a pole dancer in Pattaya. But everything else has been promising. The book and advice on the MDLT threads have been very helpful and good memory jogs for stuff I've forgotten or under emphasized. And even if I don't stick with any MDLT stuff, I can attest to the distance this kind of swing will produce.
Anyway, good luck OSR. I'm looking forward to reading about your progress. I'm really in no position to give advice, but as far as leveraging the driver, swinging the club to the target works for me. Sometimes I try to kill the ball with that SOB club, and remembering to swing to the target helps to reel in that urge.

[oldschoolrocker]

Thanks Mike, leaving out of the country on business for a month so won't be able to update progress for about. 5 or 6 weeks. The time periods I have with no club in my hand are what caused me to search for something I can use when I get off the plane and play with and not have to work so hard on getting my timing back when I return from each trip.

[rondo01]

Thanks for the comment Steve. Went out this morning and by the end of the bucket was hitting balls longer and straighter than I have in the past. Keeping the club away from the head inreases torso rotatio, yes?

Also I did find that my left leg wanted to move more than in the past - is this something I should be careful to restrict or not?

[juststeve]

As long as you are keeping your weight centered movement of the left leg in response to the back swing should not concern you. One persons leg will move more than another's. What matters is the way you move the club.

Steve

[trapsmv15]

When I [i]allow[/i] myself to turn as I swing the club over my shoulder with my hands, and when I don't try to hit it hard from the top with my shoulders, I hit smooth little draws that go as far as they would if I tried to hit it hard with my old swing.

It's weird, but I'm starting to get used to it. Swinging the club to the target with the upper arms will take a while to ingrain, I'm sure. Hopefully I'm doing it correctly.

[Jarick]

Last year I read the book and it seemed to really help me. I started the year fighting a slice and by the end of the year, I was drawing the ball a bit, although pulling it sometimes.

This year, I've struggled so much with consistent contact, and I ended up getting away from it. I've bounced around some ideas and some parts of my swing are better, others worse.

I do find with the MDLT method that my right arm (I'm a lefty) is bent, not straight. Part of making better contact lately has been with keeping that arm straighter.

Really wish I could find a teacher that follows the method, but I'm stuck up in the Midwest where it seems to only be traditional and expensive PGA guys.

[Cicero]

[quote name='Jarick' timestamp='1407443887' post='9881731']Last year I read the book and it seemed to really help me. I started the year fighting a slice and by the end of the year, I was drawing the ball a bit, although pulling it sometimes.

This year, I've struggled so much with consistent contact, and I ended up getting away from it. I've bounced around some ideas and some parts of my swing are better, others worse.

Really wish I could find a teacher that follows the method, but I'm stuck up in the Midwest where it seems to only be traditional and expensive PGA guys.[/quote]

Here's a listing of de la Torre instructors. My apologies if you've seen this already:

http://manueldelatorregolf.com/golf_lessons_additional.html

[lsh]

[quote name='Jarick' timestamp='1407443887' post='9881731']
Last year I read the book and it seemed to really help me. I started the year fighting a slice and by the end of the year, I was drawing the ball a bit, although pulling it sometimes.

This year, I've struggled so much with consistent contact, and I ended up getting away from it. I've bounced around some ideas and some parts of my swing are better, others worse.

I do find with the MDLT method that my right arm (I'm a lefty) is bent, not straight. Part of making better contact lately has been with keeping that arm straighter.

Really wish I could find a teacher that follows the method, but I'm stuck up in the Midwest where it seems to only be traditional and expensive PGA guys.
[/quote]
Minnesota is pretty close to Milwaukee isn't it? (-; Nothing like seeing the man himself!

[Jarick]

It's about 5-6 hours depending on traffic. I'd have to take about three days to drive out there which I haven't been able to do.

[Jarick]

Decided to read the first several chapters again and practice the swing. Hit about 20-30 really nice shots, then shanked about 30 in a row, then closed it out with 20-30 mostly good shots.

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='Jarick' timestamp='1407606577' post='9895465']Decided to read the first several chapters again and practice the swing. Hit about 20-30 really nice shots, then shanked about 30 in a row, then closed it out with 20-30 mostly good shots.[/quote]

Check where you're swinging the club to - swing it to the target with the upper arms, not to the right of the target or the ball.

[Spankapotamus]

I've been practicing the MDLT method for a little more than 6 months. Absolutely revolutionized my game. I can't say enough about it. The best part, it's crazy easy. The only thing giving me real trouble is chipping/pitching. It makes sense in the book, just not in my brain yet. Old habits die hard. Shot a 90 this weekend (have only broke 90 once ever).

[BeTheBall_]

Figured I'd bump this rather than start a new thread as there's so much good info already.

Over the last couple of years endless swing thoughts have killed my game - not only have they not improved my swing they've started to sap all the enjoyment from playing.

As of this week I've decided to devote myself 100% to the MDLT 'method'

Just hit a bucket at the range thinking only of swinging the club over my shoulder then to the target, and I'm amazed.

Striking the ball beautifully, and the real surprise was how much of a balanced and pivot driven swing it felt like. I had absolutely no thoughts of what my body was doing and I was finishing in what felt like the perfect position.

I've been playing long enough to know one range session means very little but it is certainly encouraging.

Only concern is ball flight seemed somewhat high and the shots didn't feel as powerful as normal but it was extremely windy so not a fair test really.

Can't wait to try it on the course and hopefully enjoy playing golf again!

[ericpaul2]

Stick with it. You will see some ups and downs, but staying committed to one concept goes a long way to training your body and mind to repeat the swing and results.

Consider giving Rodd Slater a follow on Twitter: @roddslaterpga...lots of good nuggets on MDLT.

[BeTheBall_]

Thanks will check him out.

I intend to stick with it - regardless of any bad shots/rounds it might produce while I adjust to it, playing with a relatively uncluttered mind must surely be more enjoyable than a round plagued with doubt and a dozen different swing thoughts!

[The Pearl]

[quote name='BeTheBall_' timestamp='1430909895' post='11508465']
Figured I'd bump this rather than start a new thread as there's so much good info already.

Over the last couple of years endless swing thoughts have killed my game - not only have they not improved my swing they've started to sap all the enjoyment from playing.

As of this week I've decided to devote myself 100% to the MDLT 'method'

Just hit a bucket at the range thinking only of swinging the club over my shoulder then to the target, and I'm amazed.

Striking the ball beautifully, and the real surprise was how much of a balanced and pivot driven swing it felt like. I had absolutely no thoughts of what my body was doing and I was finishing in what felt like the perfect position.

I've been playing long enough to know one range session means very little but it is certainly encouraging.

Only concern is ball flight seemed somewhat high and the shots didn't feel as powerful as normal but it was extremely windy so not a fair test really.

Can't wait to try it on the course and hopefully enjoy playing golf again!
[/quote]

I have adopted MDLT's concepts for a few seasons now. Sticking with it is key as EricPaul says above. Here are some my bullet points that might speed your process and help you avoid some of the mistakes I made along the way.

1. Get John Hayes's book if you have not done so. http://www.learninggolfwithmanuel.com/

2. Don't add any "swing concepts" from any other instructors OR don't attempt to put your own twist on the concepts.

3. Don't complicate the concepts. Manuel says what he means, and means what he says. Don't over think or look for a hidden meaning.

4. Swinging "tension free" and swinging "easy" are not the same thing.

5. Approach the concepts from "doing" rather than "preventing." If the ball is not going is it should, go back to the concepts and have the "intention of doing" the concepts rather than trying to "prevent" from doing something else.

6. Despite the simplicity, mental focus on what your "intentions" are is key. My biggest takeaway from my lessons with him was the mental emphasis.

[vjswing]

I don't recall seeing this specifically discussed in this thread, but was curious to know how many have implemented Manuel's thoughts on putting into their own game? I purchased his book around 10 years ago, and was just reading through a few different passages on short game stuff for grins as a recent injury prevented me from making full swings for a little while.

He prefers to place the focus of movement solely on the arms (defined as the portion of the arm between shoulder and elbow) in both the back and forward swing. I just concentrated on that, and was absolutely blown away by the difference in the feeling at impact. This was a clear revelation that my hands and wrists were taking control previous to this change. My distance control on lag putts was considerably better, and I felt so much confident over the short ones that the ball would drop in dead-center. I can only hope I maintain this thought process once I get back onto the course proper.

[BeTheBall_]

Thanks the pearl - all good stuff (a lot of which I've picked up from the book/this thread already but which certainly bears repeating).

Of the very few bad shots I hit today using this approach, all were because I allowed myself to become focussed on the ball and hitting at it. As soon as this happened I simply accepted that I hadn't executed manuel's approach on that particular shot and immediately returned to simply trying to swing the club.

I found the mental image of the whole club swinging back and forward on the plane set at address helped a lot.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='vjswing' timestamp='1430933514' post='11510745']
I don't recall seeing this specifically discussed in this thread, but was curious to know how many have implemented Manuel's thoughts on putting into their own game? I purchased his book around 10 years ago, and was just reading through a few different passages on short game stuff for grins as a recent injury prevented me from making full swings for a little while.

He prefers to place the focus of movement solely on the arms (defined as the portion of the arm between shoulder and elbow) in both the back and forward swing. I just concentrated on that, and was absolutely blown away by the difference in the feeling at impact. This was a clear revelation that my hands and wrists were taking control previous to this change. My distance control on lag putts was considerably better, and I felt so much confident over the short ones that the ball would drop in dead-center. I can only hope I maintain this thought process once I get back onto the course proper.
[/quote]

Regardless of the full swing or putting, I consider the concept of "swing the entire club toward the target using the upper arms" to be the single greatest golf concept that I have ever come across.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='BeTheBall_' timestamp='1430934691' post='11510893']
Thanks the pearl - all good stuff (a lot of which I've picked up from the book/this thread already but which certainly bears repeating).

Of the very few bad shots I hit today using this approach, all were because I allowed myself to become focussed on the ball and hitting at it. As soon as this happened I simply accepted that I hadn't executed manuel's approach on that particular shot and immediately returned to simply trying to swing the club.

I found the mental image of the whole club swinging back and forward on the plane set at address helped a lot.
[/quote]

If you can maintain this behavior going forward you have already avoided and solved most of the problems I encountered during the initial first season. But I feel your pain regarding the hit impulse. Manuel never told me directly because he is the consummate teacher and gentlemen, but he in essence conveyed to me that I have a hit impulse about as bad as he had ever seen!



There is also a Youtube video of MDLT on Golf Academy live if you have not seen that yet.

[sjsdogsrule]

Perl,
Do you feel the John Hayes' book should be used as well as the MDLT book Understanding the Golf Swing? Does the John Hayes book bring extra insight?

I've read the MDLT book, but never having in person lessons has hindered my thought process. Swinging with the upper arms is something I'm not sure that I've ever quite felt correctly.

I've tried the MDLT swing on the range, but invariable return to a more traditional swing.

[TheOne85]

Quick question, when swing the arms and not shoulders, how does that work? Is it about not having tension in shoulders basically?

Is it possible to swing arms without shoulder or more of s feel?

[The Pearl]

[quote name='sjsdogsrule' timestamp='1430935976' post='11511031']
Perl,
Do you feel the John Hayes' book should be used as well as the MDLT book Understanding the Golf Swing? Does the John Hayes book bring extra insight?

I've read the MDLT book, but never having in person lessons has hindered my thought process. Swinging with the upper arms is something I'm not sure that I've ever quite felt correctly.

I've tried the MDLT swing on the range, but invariable return to a more traditional swing.
[/quote]

Yes. The Hayes book is the result of Mr. Hayes observing Manuel teach a large number of lessons and he tries to capture some of what it is like to take a lesson. It is important to know that it is all in the book. When you take a lesson with Manuel, there is no "secret tip" reserved for personal lessons nor is there any "personalized tip." If Manuel "corrects" you, it will be in order to guide you in the direction of executing the concepts. A simple example is that the first thing we worked on was my aim. I was aiming 30-40 yds right, even when the target was 100 yds out. The aiming process he taught me was just as is in the book.

Hayes's book captures a bit of the application process, if you will. I think everybody who is trying the concepts will find something in the book that will identify with and that will help.

Remember, the intention is always on the club, so the big leap with MDLT is not necessarily to "execute by feel", but rather to "execute by intention."

[BeTheBall_]

[quote name='TheOne85' timestamp='1430937199' post='11511155']
Quick question, when swing the arms and not shoulders, how does that work? Is it about not having tension in shoulders basically?

Is it possible to swing arms without shoulder or more of s feel?
[/quote]

I'm not an expert by any means having simply read the book and this thread a number of times but I believe the distinction needs to be made between 'swinging the arms' and 'swinging the club USING the arms'.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='BeTheBall_' timestamp='1430938888' post='11511359']
[quote name='TheOne85' timestamp='1430937199' post='11511155']
Quick question, when swing the arms and not shoulders, how does that work? Is it about not having tension in shoulders basically?

Is it possible to swing arms without shoulder or more of s feel?
[/quote]

I'm not an expert by any means having simply read the book and this thread a number of times but I believe the distinction needs to be made between 'swinging the arms' and 'swinging the club USING the arms'.
[/quote]

This is correct. The golfer should attempt to keep the entire body tension free. Of course, easier said than done.

BeTheBall has made the important distinction of having the intention to "swing the club" and not the "arms"