Manual de la Torre Method

[erikro]

Bump

[DaveLeeNC]

Here is an interesting anecdotal story WRT MDLT. I am 72 years old and back in my early/mid 60's was a 5'ish index (summertime). I had a golf club in my hands 5-6 days week - more practice than play. The last 5 years I have 'degenerated' to being mostly a once a week golfer. The other obvious change is that I have lost 20-30 yards off the tee. Age thing, IMHO. 

 

My index has gone up to the 11-12 (13 for a short while) and I would judge that half to two-thirds of that is lack of practice/play and the rest is just what happens when you get old. But without all that practice and play my 'swing management' (whatever that was back in the day) is no longer effective. So I switched to a 'MLDT way' of dealing with my swing. Pretty much no matter what goes wrong on the course, I don't move my focus (much anyway) outside of staying centered, 'swinging tempo', club back/club forward, and NO MORE of this body driven stuff. That last one was hard for me, BTW - still is quite unnatural.

 

Other than warmup before the occasional round of golf, there have been no formal practice sessions since I started doing this at the end of April. But there has been somewhere around 15 ten to fifteen minute practice sessions in the back yard being an equal mix of full swings at whiffle balls and LW pitch shots of 15-20 yards. That has been the total effort that I have put into this 'swing change'. 

 

While I am still not playing to my old index (no surprise) the following stat is interesting. I have played exactly five times since I started doing this at the end of April. All ALL FIVE of those scores are on my current 'revision scores' list. I think that says alot about how this is working for me, even though my index is only down 1.5 strokes since I made the change. More importantly the frustration index is way down as I have confidence that what I am trying to do can work (even if it does not work every time). 

 

dave

 

ps. Full disclosure - one more round that beats my 8th worse score and one of those referenced 5 scores (diff = 12) will no longer be on my revision list. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[EdStraker]

 

 

Erika Larkin mentions Ernest Jones and Manuel De La Torre in her book 'A True Swing'. It appears she was influenced by their teachings and has good drills that might help golfers who are following Manuel's golfing philosophy.

 

[erikro]

 

[erikro]

 

[GoPack_87]

I’m not close to any MDLT method instructors (that I can find), but it looks like both John Hayes and Trish Beucher offer remote lessons. Has anyone had success with remote lessons with either? 

[mocokid]

On 6/18/2022 at 8:22 AM, GoPack_87 said:

I’m not close to any MDLT method instructors (that I can find), but it looks like both John Hayes and Trish Beucher offer remote lessons. Has anyone had success with remote lessons with either? 

Not remote, in person with Hayes, I'd definitely try the remote.

[GoPack_87]

44 minutes ago, mocokid said:

Not remote, in person with Hayes, I'd definitely try the remote.

 

Appreciate the response! I'll check it out.

[RogB]

Hi I have been trying MDLT today after a 3 week layoff due to golfer's elbow and reading as much as possible. I felt it really went well, just working on clubhead over right shoulder and arms/ club to target and to left shoulder. Grip is good, minimal tension, even balance and many shots felt effortless.

The only problem that carries over from the old PGA swing is still the strikes are heel side of centre.

Any MDLT ideas for this that may help please?

Rog

[calebm12]

I am confused by his ball placement recommendations.  If I understand correctly the club head is always aligned middle of stance and then ball is just ahead of it for all clubs.  Is this the case?  

[Jersey golfer]

That is correct.

[Wade Patton]

On 6/18/2022 at 7:22 AM, GoPack_87 said:

I’m not close to any MDLT method instructors (that I can find), but it looks like both John Hayes and Trish Beucher offer remote lessons. Has anyone had success with remote lessons with either? 

Did you get a lesson? 

[Wade Patton]

On 6/18/2022 at 7:22 AM, GoPack_87 said:

I’m not close to any MDLT method instructors (that I can find), but it looks like both John Hayes and Trish Beucher offer remote lessons. Has anyone had success with remote lessons with either? 

I haven't had any in-person instruction, but I've already promised Trish I'd do a remote with her if I can't work things out. She sent me a TBOS already. I may add a grip to that setup.

 

 

Personally just got started on this, have the books and all. LOVING my new accuracy from 50 yards in. I keep hitting everything I aim at! 

I'm fine with the 3/4 and less shots, just not hitting good full swings yet. The tendency so far is to catch them a little low towards the toe. Still have lots of programming to overwrite. 

[Wade Patton]

I made it out to the practice area of the GC today where I could hit 130-150 yard shots with two practice greens and a bunker. The only shots I missed were the ones where I thought too much or rushed it.  Pretty much all the rest were on line and flew well. Those that didn't fly so well were okay but for just a few I stuffed. It was drizzling rain most of the time. 

I love it. I'm developing my pre-shot routine such that when I step up to the ball and finalize my alignment, it's GO time (much like Lee Trevino-I step up and align and let it fly!)  No more standing around waiting for thoughts to complicate it.  So long as I get good alignment and focus on the target rather than my swing or my hands or my arms or any part of me--the better it goes.  Hitting those sweet ones shot after shot will never get old.

I still have plenty of work to do, but it's so VERY much more enjoyable now.

If you're undecided--there's nothing to lose and you can always go back to bodyparts focus at any time.  I'm really surprised that more folks aren't teaching this.  I can't wait until I can spend a half-day practicing, today was only two hours and the weekend is occupied.

"Leave it alone" as Manny says.

[calebm12]

Is the driver swing the same as the iron swing? Hands bring club over shoulder, arms move club to target ?

[tm3]

15 minutes ago, calebm12 said:

Is the driver swing the same as the iron swing? Hands bring club over shoulder, arms move club to target ?

It is for me.  And interestingly, since migrating to the MDLT method I've added significant distance to my driver but have lost about a club distance on my irons.

[calebm12]

34 minutes ago, tm3 said:

It is for me.  And interestingly, since migrating to the MDLT method I've added significant distance to my driver but have lost about a club distance on my irons.

Thank you.  I been struggling to get the same feel on the driver.   

[Feelingofgreatness]

1 hour ago, calebm12 said:

Is the driver swing the same as the iron swing? Hands bring club over shoulder, arms move club to target ?

For me, it's the same for all swings. 

[rkodavey]

I haven't seen JustSteve around this forum in a long time. I tried PM'ing him but for some reason wasn't allowed to. I wonder how he's doing. He's dropped some great wisdom here and in other threads related to MDLT and I'd love to tell him how much I appreciate his thoughts.

[Feelingofgreatness]

2 hours ago, rkodavey said:

I haven't seen JustSteve around this forum in a long time. I tried PM'ing him but for some reason wasn't allowed to. I wonder how he's doing. He's dropped some great wisdom here and in other threads related to MDLT and I'd love to tell him how much I appreciate his thoughts.

Juststeve had wonderful posts and insights

 

[tm3]

17 hours ago, rkodavey said:

I haven't seen JustSteve around this forum in a long time. I tried PM'ing him but for some reason wasn't allowed to. I wonder how he's doing. He's dropped some great wisdom here and in other threads related to MDLT and I'd love to tell him how much I appreciate his thoughts.

Concur.  I hope he is doing OK.

[chipa]

I want to give an update, while I haven't followed all of Manny's teaching routing the club over my right shoulder has changed my swing for the better, much better. I really never knew what the club was doing at the top, now I do. I am approaching the consistencyI had hoped to obtain, which is hit about 70 percnt of my shots acceptably.

[Wade Patton]

According to user stats, juststeve hasn't posted here since April (last visit in July), one of three posts this year on this site. Pehaps he's okay-just distracted or interested in other things/places or situations of life.  He and The Pearl  have been great ambassadors of the MDLT way. I do appreciate their contributions here as well.

Yesterday I worked on my putting first.  I wasn't having any real complaints about my putting because I was making some long ones. My reads were usually on, just a bit inconsistent with my speed, and it was not a swinging stroke. It was a lateral, artificially flattened pop of a stroke.

At first I was trying to use my old setup with a nice free swing--but that didn't work so well. Then I moved everything back to center and BAMMO! I went from happy with my putter to SUPER pleased with my putter and stroke.  Hits feel better, longer putts easier and shorter putts easier and consistency has returned.

Then I worked up to 9-iron full swing with a bunch of 9 and 7-iron chip shots. I even played the 9 out of the greenside bunker-and well!  I'd never even tried a bounce shot from the beach without a sand-iron.

I kept saying to myself.  "Damn that's a nice one".  "Look at that sweet shot fly". "Does it get any better?"  I Only stuffed a few and every single time that happens, I now discard it naturally as "it happened because I didn't do what Manny teaches". And I know it won't happen when I do it properly. 

BTW all my clubs are old school forged irons. And now I well know that that's all the "technology" I need to be happy with my golf from here on out, given the wonderful swing I'm now developing.

Something I've noticed is the less time I stare at the ball, the better my shots fly. I don't move into position until I know exactly what I want to do with the shot, then I do it, checking my line continuously and then swinging, no dilly dallying -much like Lee Trevino did it, but with a different finish. Staring at a ball thinking it over is where all swing-thought-pollution happens.  Don't go there. 

Thanks all. I cannot wait to help others who want to learn this way of golf.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Wade Patton
habit of fixing errors

[Feelingofgreatness]

1 hour ago, Wade Patton said:

According to user stats, juststeve hasn't posted here since April (last visit in July), one of three posts this year on this site. Pehaps he's okay-just distracted or interested in other things/places or situations of life.  He and The Pearl  have been great ambassadors of the MDLT way. I do appreciate their contributions here as well.

Yesterday I worked on my putting first.  I wasn't having any real complaints about my putting because I was making some long ones. My reads were usually on, just a bit inconsistent with my speed, and it was not a swinging stroke. It was a lateral, artificially flattened pop of a stroke.

At first I was trying to use my old setup with a nice free swing--but that didn't work so well. Then I moved everything back to center and BAMMO! I went from happy with my putter to SUPER pleased with my putter and stroke.  Hits feel better, longer putts easier and shorter putts easier and consistency has returned.

Then I worked up to 9-iron full swing with a bunch of 9 and 7-iron chip shots. I even played the 9 out of the greenside bunker-and well!  I'd never even tried a bounce shot from the beach without a sand-iron.

I kept saying to myself.  "Damn that's a nice one".  "Look at that sweet shot fly". "Does it get any better?"  I Only stuffed a few and every single time that happens, I now discard it naturally as "it happened because I didn't do what Manny teaches". And I know it won't happen when I do it properly. 

BTW all my clubs are old school forged irons. And now I well know that that's all the "technology" I need to be happy with my golf from here on out, given the wonderful swing I'm now developing.

Something I've noticed is the less time I stare at the ball, the better my shots fly. I don't move into position until I know exactly what I want to do with the shot, then I do it, checking my line continuously and then swinging, no dilly dallying -much like Lee Trevino did it, but with a different finish. Staring at a ball thinking it over is where all swing-thought-pollution happens.  Don't go there. 

Thanks all. I cannot wait to help others who want to learn this way of golf.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this! Thanks Wade. 

[Wade Patton]

On 11/27/2022 at 9:06 AM, Feelingofgreatness said:

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this! Thanks Wade. 

Thanks, I'm glad someone did. Here I'll ramble on again as a thanks to those who've helped me understand, and I hope to inspire those curious but not committed to give the MDLT way a chance. Nothing else makes sense to me now, but I realize I wasn't so ready to learn until my "conventional" golf blew up on me some weeks back. And the ramble begins:

I've had another great "golf weekend" which consisted of me playing 12 on the 6-hole practice course (with brilliant greens), buying two more sets of clubs, going back to the practice course and hitting some of them on Friday. Then I went to another practice area yesterday morning and hit 8-irons for an hour and a half (five different ones--tryout for the clubs and practice for me).  I just keep getting more and more consistent with the MDLT way.  At one point after I just switched clubs I railed about six duplicate shots, hit a seventh, then the eight--and caught myself thinking-wow I'm hitting like Moe Norman!. 

But of course it's golf and I chunked one here and there and now I'll hit a shank here and there, but they're not from doing it right. Those bad shots are from getting a little sloppy or hurried, losing my tempo.  Heck the "fat" shots are often fine, just ripping a bit of a divot. I used to always rip divots but hardly do that anymore. It's so much nicer on the hands and the course to brush the turf just enough to do the job. 

It's still difficult to not think "what did I do wrong?", but it's becoming easier and easier to realize/feel what went wrong and to not give it any more thought, but to remind myself of the basics of our setup and alignment and hit another one. Holing out chips and pitches is way more likely now and I did poke one in from off the back (and down) 24 paces Friday. I opened my 9i up to about 60 degrees and popped it up for a one-hop and short roll into the cup. I only had a 9i because it's a short course and I like playing varied shots with one club.

It really surprises me that more folks don't get the joys of the MDLT way of swinging a club, which to me has put true JOY back into golf.  Golf happiness to me is about some great shots and some birdies/eagles/par saves, more so than great scores, but they all go together and I've never felt so close to being able to tie them all together. And I want to get back into playing fun competitions. I just don't have time to get out and go full rounds this winter. But hitting good shots just doesn't get old, that's another thought I had at practice yesterday. 

The next level for me will be 4/5/6 irons (vintage) and then I'll see about working them left and right.

This is a wonderful change to my whole golf existence, It used to be about grinding out buckets of balls just to gather my swing thoughts for the day, which rarely held up for a full round. Now I have no problem starting a game without a good bit of warm up, because I have a new way and confidence in it. The thoughts don't change. They are fewer. It works.

PS: Here's a funny.  Last "round" of hitting to the smallest chipping green from about 80-90 yards with an 8i into a strong quartering wind off the water. First shot, BAM I hit a beautiful shot onto the green around 10' from the hole. I thought wow, that'll be hard to match.  Second shot wasn't pretty. I skulled it right on the bottom groove BUT that ball took off straight to the hole-under all that wind and rolled all the way onto the green, about 15' or so from the hole and I thought "'twas ugly but it worked".  Then the next three hit just short of the green and bogged in the soft turf, not making it to the putting surface. I've been learning "bump and run" intentionally but that was a great lesson in why/when to B&R.  I hit a dozen or so high shots to the soggy area in front of the green, none of them rolled up. Shots onto the green were difficult to stop because it's so tiny, but low running shots avoided the "trap" of soft turf.  This is not MDLT specific, but being so much more "target aware/aligned" now has given me way more chip-ins, flagstick strikes, and near misses than before. Enjoy your Sunday rounds.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Wade Patton
corrections

[Foxx]

He had a big inside to inside swing.

A beautiful swing, but not something that is taught today.

Most golfers if they were to go inside that much on the backswing, they'd almost certainly come over the top on the downswing.

 

It's always felt natural for me to swing the club back inside. But lessons had me change it, because of the slight over the top downswing it lead me to do. I did change it but it felt mechanical and forced, not fluent at all. And lead to other things I then had to change, which worked for the inside swing, but not the new one.

 

I looked for videos of inside backswings, and came across a YouTube video of Manuel on the range hitting balls. It was the most beautiful fluent swing I'd ever seen! I had no idea who he was at the time.

 

I now have an inside to inside swing, after examining his swing, then adding the missing piece to mine.

Works great for me now, and I tend to get comments from time to time saying I have a nice swing, which is good to hear.

 

Here is the video:

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Foxx

[The Pearl]

When I took my lessons with Manny years ago, once we worked on the concepts and were "just hitting" balls, we would work on "pulling the trigger" very quickly.

 

I would approach and address the ball per his method, acquire the mental picture of the target, and he would say "go".  

 

As Wade mentioned, one of the main tenants of his method is to turn the golf swing into a natural and athletic motion without any interference from the brain, just like you would do any other activity.

 

It is something you could incorporate into your practice routine. Once you start to make the transition you will really start to notice other golfers and how much time they take over the ball. You can almost feel the tension in yourself through their freezing over the ball. As you can see from the posted video above, Manny does not linger over the ball at all. 

 

While a huge benefit in the long game, the short-game can become almost automatic when the mind is free. 

 

During my 3 lessons we spent probably 75% of time with the wedge.  Something I do all the time  is to simply hit half and 3/4 wedge shots over and over and over again with no particular target.

 

Finally as JustSteve has repeated over and over again, there is no better way to practice than hitting balls with your feet together. Buckets and buckets worth.

[bdcava]

His method seems simple but there’s so much good stuff involved in it. I’ve been an adherent for quite a while and only recently did I realize I wasn’t keeping my weight centered during the backswing. I’ve been focusing on this and am hitting the ball great. Too bad the cold weather is here in NJ!

[Wade Patton]

1 hour ago, bdcava said:

His method seems simple but there’s so much good stuff involved in it. I’ve been an adherent for quite a while and only recently did I realize I wasn’t keeping my weight centered during the backswing. I’ve been focusing on this and am hitting the ball great. Too bad the cold weather is here in NJ!

Simplified my life-all that stuff. Not right at first, but after a few sessions it started clicking. It's only getting better and more consistent now. 

 

19 hours ago, Foxx said:

He had a big inside to inside swing.

A beautiful swing, but not something that is taught today.

Most golfers if they were to go inside that much on the backswing, they'd almost certainly come over the top on the downswing.

 

It's always felt natural for me to swing the club back inside. But lessons had me change it, because of the slight over the top downswing it lead me to do. I did change it but it felt mechanical and forced, not fluent at all. And lead to other things I then had to change, which worked for the inside swing, but not the new one.

 

I looked for videos of inside backswings, and came across a YouTube video of Manuel on the range hitting balls. It was the most beautiful fluent swing I'd ever seen! I had no idea who he was at the time.

 

I now have an inside to inside swing, after examining his swing, then adding the missing piece to mine.

Works great for me now, and I tend to get comments from time to time saying I have a nice swing, which is good to hear.

 

Here is the video:

 

 

I no longer think about anything that happens behind me-inside/outside/broadside or otherwise. When I swat a bad one now I shrug it off and hit another, being a little more mindful of going shoulder to shoulder, or as far as appropriate for the distance necessary. I make sure I'm centered and lined up and rip another.

 

Saturday I did notice on full swings that the clubhead was lightly brushing the outside of my right hip in follow-through. I thought "interesting" and went on hitting those sweet shots.  I guess it's time to make a video so we can see.

 

Also, not directly related, I happened to find a video of Fred Couples hitting balls before a tournament round-a full half hour. There was no chatter, no blather, just one easy free swing after the other. I feel like my swing is looking more that way than ever before, thanks to Manny's instruction, my discarding old ways (the difficult part), and just sticking to the fundamentals Manny teaches. 

 

I've watched every video of MDLT on YT multiple times. That's how I pick up the stuff I've missed.

 

Thanks for the good mention Pearl. Yes I specifically avoid staring at the ball anymore. While Manny does his initial setup a tad away from the ball and then moves in for final address, I'm taking my address position and waving my clubhead over the ball for alignment. Then I confirm my target and pull the trigger. ANY hesitation there lets my brain fill up with unwanted thoughts. Also hitting dozens of quick short shots is an old habit of mine, but now I do it without tension ir swinging at the ball-always through and to the target

 

I realize that he may do some things differently than Manuel, but that this looks like what I feel-free and easy, I'm just not as consistent: Here's the range time with Fred: 

 

[Wade Patton]

Oh and, speaking to the point attributed to Angel, his father, on thinking about a bad swing (Q: What did I do wrong? Angels reply: Why, do you want to repeat it?) I caught one too thin Saturday, but quickly said to self, Don't hit 'em so thin Patton-without thinking one iota about How or Why or What corrective measures might be "needed". I just told me to don't do it like that.  I didn't thereafter. Not once. I've felt myself make other errors, but they go away without doting on them, or making them projects as modern golf trains us to do.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Wade Patton