Manual de la Torre Method

[DaveLeeNC]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

As you say….essentially you were not doing what he taught.   You could warn against any swing idea that way.

I did not say that (the bolded stuff quoted). Maybe you have MDLT specific stuff that I don't have (I was mostly going from his book which I have loaned to a neighbor). But the essence that I took away (re: how I internalized his teaching) was that you learn how the arms work and the rest mostly follows naturally with a few tweaks discussed in his 'faults and fixes' section (although I don't think that is what he called it). In my case I remained very inconsistent and I did not find that section helpful to me. But there is no discussion at all about a detailed evaluation of what is going on at a relatively technical level. It isn't like I didn't turn at all, but I did not have a good pivot. It isn't like I didn't shift my weight, but my sequencing was off. It took some detailed work to fix all this that is (IMHO) the antithesis of what MDLT teaches. It was that simplicity that got my interest and that simplicity is what failed me (an experiment of one, so ....). 

 

dave

[Shilgy]

24 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I did not say that (the bolded stuff quoted). Maybe you have MDLT specific stuff that I don't have (I was mostly going from his book which I have loaned to a neighbor). But the essence that I took away (re: how I internalized his teaching) was that you learn how the arms work and the rest mostly follows naturally with a few tweaks discussed in his 'faults and fixes' section (although I don't think that is what he called it). In my case I remained very inconsistent and I did not find that section helpful to me. But there is no discussion at all about a detailed evaluation of what is going on at a relatively technical level. It isn't like I didn't turn at all, but I did not have a good pivot. It isn't like I didn't shift my weight, but my sequencing was off. It took some detailed work to fix all this that is (IMHO) the antithesis of what MDLT teaches. It was that simplicity that got my interest and that simplicity is what failed me (an experiment of one, so ....). 

 

dave

Maybe I phrased it incorrectly.  You were not doing it correctly if you had the issues stated.  Apparently you did not allow you’re body to react to the swinging of the arms.

 

The golf swing is a funny thing.  Players can choose to feel what they wish is “driving their swing” if all is moving correctly.  You have guys claiming the opposite of MDLT and that they just turn their body back and fro and the arms are along for the ride.  Yet, if they truly did that the arms would be miles behind the pivot and have no chance of hitting a decent shot.

 

It sounds to me like you skipped MLDT’s description comparing the swing to a column of soldiers marching.  The guy in front IS leading but they are all moving together.  He doesn’t take the first step…and the one behind is just a bit behind…and the next a bit later and so on.  It would be a disjointed mess.

The swing is the similar. If you felt your arms swiping weakly across your chest(previous page so I’m not going back but it was along that idea) then you did not allow the body to react/ essentially not doing the teaching.

 

It is a good example of why it’s so difficult for us to self learn a new pattern.

[Nels55]

31 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I did not say that (the bolded stuff quoted). Maybe you have MDLT specific stuff that I don't have (I was mostly going from his book which I have loaned to a neighbor). But the essence that I took away (re: how I internalized his teaching) was that you learn how the arms work and the rest mostly follows naturally with a few tweaks discussed in his 'faults and fixes' section (although I don't think that is what he called it). In my case I remained very inconsistent and I did not find that section helpful to me. But there is no discussion at all about a detailed evaluation of what is going on at a relatively technical level. It isn't like I didn't turn at all, but I did not have a good pivot. It isn't like I didn't shift my weight, but my sequencing was off. It took some detailed work to fix all this that is (IMHO) the antithesis of what MDLT teaches. It was that simplicity that got my interest and that simplicity is what failed me (an experiment of one, so ....). 

 

dave

I had the same experience with MDLT and also Earnest Jones, Frankel Brothers and Ron Sisson's teaching.  I found that no amount of swinging the arms or the clubhead or whatever would fix my mechanical flaws and the longer I tried the worse I got.  LOL unlike you I kept trying over and over again as the years went by.  Never worked for more then a round or two at the most for me. 

[DaveLeeNC]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

If you felt your arms swiping weakly across your chest

Just for clarification I did not "feel my arms swiping weakly across my chest". I was told that by my current instructor. 

 

dave

[OnRails]

On 3/28/2024 at 8:38 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

@OnRails Something to be cautious about here. I gave MDLT a serious pass last year. The results were basically mixed, but it sure was simple. After that  I decided to get serious about the state of my game. My first video review (with a teacher well respected here on WRX) would be summarized as "I had no turn or wrist set and I was just wiping my arms across my chest". That (apparently) is how I internalized MDLT's teaching. 

 

I am not saying that it cannot work. But (in my case) the phrase 'things should be made as simple as possible but not any simpler than that' certainly applied. 

 

dave

 

I think you are right in this respect.

 

My friend who has been playing forever watched a MDLT video with me before we played last week and it totally wrecked his game. He just couldn't get it. Didn't resonate with him at all and he got the wrong intent based on the words used. 

 

Did you ever get any in person instruction with a coach who teaches this way? 

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

8 hours ago, OnRails said:

 

I think you are right in this respect.

 

My friend who has been playing forever watched a MDLT video with me before we played last week and it totally wrecked his game. He just couldn't get it. Didn't resonate with him at all and he got the wrong intent based on the words used. 

 

Did you ever get any in person instruction with a coach who teaches this way? 

 

 

No I did not and that might well have made a huge difference.  dave

[MoneyMan300]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:48 PM, Shilgy said:

Maybe I phrased it incorrectly.  You were not doing it correctly if you had the issues stated.  Apparently you did not allow you’re body to react to the swinging of the arms.

 

The golf swing is a funny thing.  Players can choose to feel what they wish is “driving their swing” if all is moving correctly.  You have guys claiming the opposite of MDLT and that they just turn their body back and fro and the arms are along for the ride.  Yet, if they truly did that the arms would be miles behind the pivot and have no chance of hitting a decent shot.

 

It sounds to me like you skipped MLDT’s description comparing the swing to a column of soldiers marching.  The guy in front IS leading but they are all moving together.  He doesn’t take the first step…and the one behind is just a bit behind…and the next a bit later and so on.  It would be a disjointed mess.

The swing is the similar. If you felt your arms swiping weakly across your chest(previous page so I’m not going back but it was along that idea) then you did not allow the body to react/ essentially not doing the teaching.

 

It is a good example of why it’s so difficult for us to self learn a new pattern.

I think some of the issue with the MDLT method is that it seems all by feel, and everyone feels things differently.  You tell 10 people to "swing the arms" and you are going to get 10 different feels and results.   What attracts people to this method is the perceived simplicity.   The problem is, the golf swing isn't that simple.

Edited March 30, 2024 by MoneyMan300

[mocokid]

On 3/29/2024 at 10:35 PM, OnRails said:

 

I think you are right in this respect.

 

My friend who has been playing forever watched a MDLT video with me before we played last week and it totally wrecked his game. He just couldn't get it. Didn't resonate with him at all and he got the wrong intent based on the words used. 

 

Did you ever get any in person instruction with a coach who teaches this way? 

 

 

One video ain't gonna do it.  John Hayes is a manny pga pro I work with in florida. Freebird is an on line resource.  Have to make the full commitment. Good luck 👍 

[OnRails]

9 hours ago, mocokid said:

One video ain't gonna do it.  John Hayes is a manny pga pro I work with in florida. Freebird is an on line resource.  Have to make the full commitment. Good luck 👍 

Thanks. I'm fully aware of this.  I think people just latch on to swing with the arms and are lead astray. 

 

My impression is this thread is a bit mistitled. It's more of a method of instruction than it is a method of how to swing a golf club. Although the book is a very good description of what happens in a golf swing. 

 

Freebird has been a good resource. Can't see anywhere if he does video lessons. I know John Hayes does. I've also looked into Trish down in Florida. Nobody in my area that I know of. 

 

Might be worth a trip down. A flight from Charlotte to Tampa is only around $80 round trip. 

[OnRails]

Just an update. I'd rather post here than start a new thread as what I have to say is said in the context of the entire thread. 

 

So far this is working very nicely for me. I can actually pick targets and get pretty close to hitting them 8/10 times. The instruction on alignment and set up are money for me. 

 

Hasn't translated to score improvements yet but that is to be expected. Hasn't made it worse either. 

 

I did reach out to Trish Beucher down in Florida as she teaches this way. That was very helpful and I will say she is very approachable and was generous with her time answering my questions even via email. I plan to make a trip down for an in-person lesson. 

 

As with anything, it takes practice and studying. I've found that the words used have very specific meanings and you can't leave any of them out. For example, it's hard  to hear "swing the whole club forward with the arms and let the body respond" and then not think "swing with the arms". There is nuance there that is often missed. You left out the "whole club" part. Not to mention the forward. And the body. It's all there, we just tend to be focused on a part and not the whole.

 

Anyway, long winded way to say I have put some time into it, seen the potential, and will continue to seek guidance and understanding. 

 

One last thing. I don't think I've seen this posted before, but Gary Sowinski was a student of Manuel and teaches in California. This video was interesting to me. The first part is basically selling the method of instruction, but the last bit where he teaches the lady is eye opening. Hope it helps anyone going down this road. 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2024 by OnRails

[BeTheBall_]

On 3/30/2024 at 1:33 PM, MoneyMan300 said:

I think some of the issue with the MDLT method is that it seems all by feel, and everyone feels things differently.  You tell 10 people to "swing the arms" and you are going to get 10 different feels and results.   What attracts people to this method is the perceived simplicity.   The problem is, the golf swing isn't that simple.

 

No-one attempting to follow MDLT's methods should be swinging their arms (this would certainly lead to different/poor results) - they should be swinging the club.

 

 

[tm3]

13 hours ago, OnRails said:

 

As with anything, it takes practice and studying. I've found that the words used have very specific meanings and you can't leave any of them out. For example, it's hard  to hear "swing the whole club forward with the arms and let the body respond" and then not think "swing with the arms". There is nuance there that is often missed. You left out the "whole club" part. Not to mention the forward. And the body. It's all there, we just tend to be focused on a part and not the whole.

 

Nice info, thanks for putting it out.  Please follow up with how the lesson with Trish goes.

 

You are for sure correct about the nuance.

[OnRails]

On 7/30/2014 at 7:06 AM, juststeve said:

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1406728028' post='9816247']
Barry, it's $10 for kindle on amazon: [url="http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Golf-Swing-Manuel-Torre/dp/1886346518/ref=la_B001JP0XBG_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406727868&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co...06727868&sr=1-1[/url]

Decided to re-do those videos...they were worthless. Anyway, I think I'm beginning to understand the feeling of back with the hands, forward with the arms. Finally beginning to feel comfortable hitting off the ground rather than teeing up, and my shots are becoming more consistent. What do you trained eyes see?

[media=]http://youtu.be/Eg8ewTtsQhs[/media]
[media=]http://youtu.be/6bNw590PbHU[/media]
[/quote]

Rondo01

Looking better. You might think about maintaining the radius of your swing better than you are doing. Manny would probably tell you top keep your hands away from your head at the top of the swing. Someone else might focus on keeping your right elbow a bit straighter, no less than a 90 degree angle at the top. If you let the radius get narrow in the back swing you have to restore it before impact and that's just one more complication.

Keep up the good work.

Steve

 

 

Just reading back through the thread, this quote from juststeve helped me today. I work from home and have a net in my backyard so I can experiment often. 

 

It wasn't the same issue or "fix" that Steve eluded to exactly, but here was my observation from today and I started generating a lot more speed and consistency without trying as hard. 

 

"Swing the clubhead back with both hands in the direction of the shoulder so that the CLUB ends up over the shoulder."

 

This does not mean that the clubhead itself will travel over the shoulder.  If it does, especially on longer clubs, I destroy the radius of the swing arc. 

 

The clubhead actually feels like it travels behind and around my shoulder which does result in the club over. 

 

And on the forward swing, the opposite is true.

 

Both things go together. 

 

For me, doing it this way gives me a nice wide arc on the backswing which sets me up nicely for the forward swing.

 

My symptom was topping or thinning the ball too often. I suspect this was a result of having to make adjustments on the forward swing. 

 

Just an idea as I continue to learn and implement. 

Edited April 11, 2024 by OnRails

[mantan]

On 2/21/2019 at 7:55 AM, skajaquada77 said:

Just took a lesson with John Hayes, after spending about a week reading about Manuel. The first day was shank fest. I had to completely let go of any previous thoughts or feelings. Then suddenly the ball started flying beautifully and the swing started to feel effortless. All the grip adjustments he suggests make perfect sense. It was hard for me to place the Vs pointing straight up but once i got used to it the the palms facing each other made sense... and the right PINKIE just resting over my left index finger was an aha moment. Cant go back now. And the best part, whenever my mind gets ahead of me and I start tweaking things, compensating, etc... all I have to do is think of Manuel saying: “take it back with your hands, put it here (above right shoulder) then take it to here (pointing to target toe up). Easy†and the swing gets fixed and back to normal.

The hardest part right now is understanding the concept of “swinging with your arms†and the feel of it.

 

Sorry for the bump on this. This is exactly where I am. I'd been working for a few months with Ellen Larkin's Truswing which is based on Ernest Jones teachings. I had some success, but didn't really like the idea of the pivot driving everything and the hands being 'totally passive'.  I came across MLDT which was a similar 'swing the club' but had the hands controlling the backswing which felt more natural. I devoured the videos and bought/read the book.

 

It felt really natural and easy. The ball flight was straight and powerful.  Then a rare shank would pop in.  Then a few more. It rained for the last two weeks and I cold shafted a round yesterday. The first few holes were just getting grooved again. I settled down on 7 with a par. Got a 3 putt bogey on 8.  Hit my best drive of the day on #9 and shanked an iron from the fairway. I was +3 on the first six holes of the back 9. Golf was fun.  Then I shanked balls from the fairway the last 3 holes.  I went to the range today and shanked over 200 of 250 iron shots. I was just trying to hit simple 9-irons and gap wedges.

 

It was so painful that I pulled out a round with some buddies tomorrow.  I've read the book again and am devouring everything trying to figure out how it went so bad.  None of the fixes in the book for shanking applied. I feel like I'm so close yet so far away.

 

 

[mantan]

I think I found my own answer in the thread in READ THE BOOK multiple times and understand that the language is very precise.

 

The big thing for me was the drill suggested to take the club down from the TOB to where you addressed it with your arms very slowly to start the understand the idea of the arms swinging the club forward.

 

I have always been a pivot downswinger....with my hips opening up triggering my backswing.  It's a different feel to let the body react to the arms coming down.  Lots of slo-mo swings last night to start to understand the feel.

 

Just took a gap wedge the range today to focus on the downswing feel. The plus side is it worked really well. One shank and lots of great centered contact.

[tm3]

12 hours ago, mantan said:

 the language is very precise.

 

 ...... start the understand the idea of the arms swinging the club forward.

 

I have always been a pivot downswinger....with my hips opening up triggering my backswing. 

One thing to keep in mind, if you aren't already, is something that tripped me up as well as others and that is what MDLT means by the "arms."  Arms does not include below the elbow, and I still find myself getting off the rails with that from time to time.  I think it is tricky because the focus is on the hands going back and it can be hard to make the switch for the downswing.

 

Reminded myself (again) of this on my practice swings on a par 5 yesterday, then launched a drive that came within 5 yards of my all time personal best on that hole ...... that I did over 25 years ago.  I'm confident that I would not be nailing the ball like I am at my age without the MDLT method.

[BeTheBall_]

When I started working on the MDLT principles I found I had to switch my intention from 'hands' to 'arms' much earlier than the downswing or even transition. As soon as the club head starts on its way back towards the right shoulder the backswing is essentially done for me, as I know it'll end up in the right place as long as I don't do anything to manipulate or leverage the club.

 

That allows me to focus only on the fact that I need to swing it towards the target with the arms, which cleaned up my transition massively (as someone who's stupid brain just wants to spin the shoulders as hard and early as possible).

 

 

[PChem]

I bought MDLT's book about six years ago and had read Earnest Jone's book about ten years ago.  The MDLT/Jones method improved my game.  Still, there was inconsistency with bad shots happening during rounds.  The downswing was never the issue, it was inconsistencies in the backswing that bedeviled me.  In recent months I've had better results from implementing the following changes:

•  I am now using a golf grip that incorporates how my hands naturally align.  I am also doing this in my putting and seeing better results.  My method for determining how my hands naturally align:  Wthout a club, I bend over as if addressing the ball and let my hands hang down naturally.  My hands turn inward and I can see three knuckles on each hand.  Today I now put my left hand on the club such that I see three knuckles and then snug my right hand palm onto my left hand's thumb (I am right handed).  Straighter and more consistent shots are now experienced.

 

•  I narrowed my stance.  It has helped.  I think this goes under the category of incremental improvement change.  Likely this is helping me have a more fluid swing and an easier shoulder turn.

 

•  I shortened my backswing.  Like most of us, I have experimented on the driving range with long and short backswings.  The point was driven home when my left shoulder started giving me intense pain in the middle of a round.  I remarked to my playing companions the arthritis in my left shoulder was killing me and that I was going to have to shorten my swing to survive to the finish.  Lo and behold!  I shortened my swing and made square contact thereafter during the round.  I was hitting the ball further and my accuracy was quite good.  I've since drilled into my brain how I am 71 years old and it is ok to make a short swing.  Lee Trevino says we older guys try to have the same backswing as when we were younger and now that we no longer have flexible bodies we should be taking shorter backswings.  I think the narrowed stance and shorter backswing all relate to adapting my swing to my current body situation.

 

•  I endeavor to turn my shoulder to where it touches my chin (or nearly touches my chin).  The full shoulder turn combined with a shorter backswing is working well for me these days.  Mentally it feels like my shoulders have turned 90 degrees and my hands are somewhere off to the right and not behind my shoulder.  My friends tell me my swing all looks normal.  Today when my shoulder reaches the chin point, I trigger my downswing as opposed to my former swing where I  tried to stretch around further with my hands/arms after reaching the shoulder to chin point.

 

•  I've always known the ball goes further when my forearms are relaxed.  I consciously make my forearms loose as the last to do item prior to initiating the backswing.

 

 

[slantsflood]

Chipping, pitching, irons, and hybrids have been wonderful. 

 

Driver is flat out unplayable.  I've been in hell with this for a long time.  I don't even play anymore.  I just go to the range to try and figure out driver.  I've tried all sorts of different setups and grips because I haven't gotten it right just to be able to try and play a round.  

  

Edited July 13, 2024 by slantsflood

[ShortGolfer]

11 minutes ago, slantsflood said:

Chipping, pitching, irons, and hybrids have been wonderful. 

 

Driver is flat out unplayable.  I've been in hell with this for a long time.  I don't even play anymore.  I just go to the range to try and figure out driver.  I've tried all sorts of different setups and grips because I haven't gotten it right just to be able to try and play a round.  

  

Go to a reputable fitter and see if they can fit you for driver with the swing you have.

It may be worth spending them money to rule out the club as the source of your problems.

Be up front and tell them what you want and see if they can do that for you.

 

I found it helpful to try a bunch of different clubs to learn what the right club should feel like.

Edited July 13, 2024 by ShortGolfer

[slantsflood]

1 minute ago, ShortGolfer said:

Go to a reputable fitter and see if they can fit you for driver with the swing you have.

Club Champion has sales on fittings.  It may be worth spending them money to rule out the club as the source of your problems.

Be up front and tell them what you want and see if they can do that for you.

What's funny is I can crush my little old 3 wood in the middle of my stance.  But you give me a 460cc driver?  Forget it.  2 way miss.  Maybe 2 balls out of 10 in the fairway 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, slantsflood said:

What's funny is I can crush my little old 3 wood in the middle of my stance.  But you give me a 460cc driver?  Forget it.  2 way miss.  Maybe 2 balls out of 10 in the fairway 

I’ve had the same issue. You’re likely too much UP angle of attack with driver.

[slantsflood]

24 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I’ve had the same issue. You’re likely too much UP angle of attack with driver.

I know I am lol.  And I'm just not good at that.  I'll be staying in my lane hitting a low lofted 3 wood as a driver.  

[Djmc25]

Anyone else watch Ludvig and think that looks like an MDLT swing?

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, Djmc25 said:

Anyone else watch Ludvig and think that looks like an MDLT swing?

Ludvig looks like he stands to close to the ball.

[Djmc25]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Ludvig looks like he stands to close to the ball.

…for what exactly? Hes what, 6th in the world?

[virtuoso]

10 hours ago, Djmc25 said:

…for what exactly? Hes what, 6th in the world?

No, he’s a great player, but I still think we should be able to do an honest swing analysis. Not suggesting he should change it, but rather studying how the pieces fit together with a super close ball position. When I say too close, I mean you shouldn’t teach someone else to set up that way.

[TheDeanAbides]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

No, he’s a great player, but I still think we should be able to do an honest swing analysis. Not suggesting he should change it, but rather studying how the pieces fit together with a super close ball position. When I say too close, I mean you shouldn’t teach someone else to set up that way.

But he's a great player, so it must be fine for me to do that too, right? Right? RIGHT???

[virtuoso]

3 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

But he's a great player, so it must be fine for me to do that too, right? Right? RIGHT???

Absolutely……if you do all the things. He has some really interesting moves that make that ball position highly functional. But you need to include those moves.

[TheDeanAbides]

12 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Absolutely……if you do all the things. He has some really interesting moves that make that ball position highly functional. But you need to include those moves.

Yeah, for sure. I was going with the "I can do this cos the elite outliers do it even though I'm off 15" kinda vibe. ;)