What is the true loft of an adjustable driver?

[Architect]

Take my R1 for instance set at 12° loft and 3° open. Is it really 12° or somewhat less, and if so what exactly? Will a fixed 10.5° play similar to my setup? My apologies if this topic has already been addressed, but it's bothering me!

[DeCuchi]

Only way to know is to have it measured. Manufacturer tolerances allow up to 2 degrees I believe. They are far from perfect, and I imagine adjustable tips can't be any better.

[rigasminho]

Here read this
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/816885-interesting-r1-loftsole-plate-wresulting-face-angle-detail-data-inside/

[Ri_Redneck]

If your head is marked accurately, when you set it to 12*, it is 12* when the face is square. For TM and most other OEMs, the loft setting is supposed to be the loft when the face is square. As many have mentioned, you would have to get yours measured to be sure. And if they don't measure it with the face square, you STILL won't know!.

BT

[Stuart_G]

The problem with answering that question is that there now seems to be more than one way in which the stated loft of the club is measured by the OEMs. So the answer depends on which method you consider to be the 'true loft' and this is generally the source of confusion on the topic.

The standard that's been historically used is to measure the loft in the club's naturally soled resting position with the face in it's naturally open or closed position and not square to the target line. Using this method, the FCT adjustment changes only the face angle but not the loft. The sole plate adjustment of the r1 would then (if I remember correctly) actually change both loft and face angle.

The second method basically ignores the face angle of the head and measures loft with the face always square to the target line (similar to the way loft is measured with irons). For those that measure loft in the first way, this is generally referred to as the "effective loft" instead of just "loft". Measured this way, the FCT does change loft and the sole plate does not.

[quote]Will a fixed 10.5° play similar to my setup?[/quote]

That will depend a lot on the face angle of the fixed 10.5 head as well as how accurate the labelled loft on the head.

When looking at two heads to see if they will play similar or not you have to look at both loft and face angle. As others have mentioned manufacturing tolerances can effect both of those as to how well the labeled loft matches the actual loft of the head.

Without getting accurate measurements on both heads (taken using the same methodology), there is no way to tell for sure without actually hitting the head. And of course that even side-by-side hit testing the two for comparison assumes that the other club aspects (shaft bend profile, shaft weight, head weight, length) are the same or at least do not cause changes in your swing.

[Architect]

You guys are awesome. I appreciate all the information you've provided. My question was both general about adjustable drivers, and specific as I am always working towards finding what setup is best for my swing.

I'll have my actual driver loft checked as suggested.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Architect' timestamp='1399421903' post='9245909']
Take my R1 for instance set at 12° loft and 3° open. Is it really 12° or somewhat less, and if so what exactly? Will a fixed 10.5° play similar to my setup? My apologies if this topic has already been addressed, but it's bothering me!
[/quote]

RI in his post is right. With the adjustable drivers, the industry now has a very confusing situation going in which there really now are two different ways to define and measure loft. So if you play your adj driver by always HOLDING or positioning the clubhead to be square to the target line at address, then you have to measure loft by fixturing the head in a measurement device with the head always rotated into a square face position in the gauge. But if you SOLE the driver at address, then you would have to do the loft measurement with the head positioned in the gauge to be sitting/resting on the major flat portion of the sole.

TOM

[rigasminho]

Actually this is probably the best table I've used to adjust my r1.
http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf

Scroll down to see the settings.
Look at the sole face plate setting

[kloyd0306]

There is probably some algebraic formula that can measure exactly what the loft at impact would be using a driver with 12 degrees of loft which is also 3 degrees open at address.

In somewhat simple terms, if the loft is 12 degrees/3 degrees open at address, the dynamic loft at impact (with the face square/pointing to the target) would be 9 degrees - which of course is the initial 12 degrees minus the 3 degrees of face angle.

Like many things associated with golf, the results appear opposite from what one might think. A closed face angle at address actually adds loft at impact (as long as the face is returned to square to the target) and an open face at address actually reduces loft at impact (again, as long as the face is returned to square to the target).

This merely proves that what is going at address has very little to do with what is going on at impact. It is up to the golfer to square it up to arrive at the 9 degrees/square.

[gunmetal]

Best practice is to get on a flightscope, trackman, or gc2 and dial in best setting. Static loft the way we used to look at drivers isn't as valuable with adjustable drivers given all of the variables that the adjustability offers

[Ri_Redneck]

Loft to FA is not a 1:1 ratio. It is actually around .6:1. This is figured with the typical lie angle of 60*. The Lie Angle would have to be 45* to give a 1:1. Back when the normal Lie was 56*, the industry used 1:1 because it was relatively close and wasn't really figured very often anyway. With today's adjustable woods, it is more common.

BT

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1399597136' post='9260483']
There is probably some algebraic formula that can measure exactly what the loft at impact would be using a driver with 12 degrees of loft which is also 3 degrees open at address.

In somewhat simple terms, if the loft is 12 degrees/3 degrees open at address, the dynamic loft at impact (with the face square/pointing to the target) would be 9 degrees - which of course is the initial 12 degrees minus the 3 degrees of face angle.

Like many things associated with golf, the results appear opposite from what one might think. A closed face angle at address actually adds loft at impact (as long as the face is returned to square to the target) and an open face at address actually reduces loft at impact (again, as long as the face is returned to square to the target).

This merely proves that what is going at address has very little to do with what is going on at impact. It is up to the golfer to square it up to arrive at the 9 degrees/square.
[/quote]

Loft on the face vary, depending on where we measure, so if you vary where you impact the ball, you will be playing "variable loft"
Whats of interest, is to get a average launch that works for your swing and playing conditions.

We cant change loft without changing face angle, its the same subject we talk about here.
Anyone who got a Mitchel Loft and Lie machine who can measure face angle can try this.

Take a random club (iron or wedge) you can mess with
- Measure loft as usual - lets say for the example we started from 50 loft.
Now bend the hosel with a target for 52* loft and keep up until you are there.

Now move the loft reader back to 50* Loft where we started from, and open the fixture bolt who locks the face angle gauge. The reading you would get say 50 loft, face angle 2 closed, because thats the same as 52 loft with a square face.

If we change face angle, we change loft, and if we change loft we change face angle, and that goes for ALL Clubs, we just use the term Loft for wedges and irons, and the term face angle for hybrids and woods.

Loft at impact, the way you impact the ball is what matters, and if you play a draw with a open face at impact, each degree you open the face add 1 loft since they go 1:1

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1399646373' post='9263119']
Loft to FA is not a 1:1 ratio. It is actually around .6:1. This is figured with the typical lie angle of 60*. The Lie Angle would have to be 45* to give a 1:1. Back when the normal Lie was 56*, the industry used 1:1 because it was relatively close and wasn't really figured very often anyway. With today's adjustable woods, it is more common.

BT
[/quote]

Superb to know that you are aware of this changing relationship of loft to face angle as lie changes. Well done. Not many know that unless you have a good background in trig functions!! We just did an article on this in our company's last newsletter with a table to show the change of the ratio as lie changes because there are many who mistakenly think the loft to FA relationship is 1:1.

TOM

[Howard_Jones]

LOL..then im one of them and i get a face angle reading on my Signature thats as close to 1:1 as can be up to about 2

[RogerinNewZealand]

This Question and These Answers get My Vote of the Year for what WRX is all about.

Thanks All, Tom, RL, Stuart, Architect ps its 4.45pm friday in NZ and its Wine Time !