Kelvin Miyahira method...

[ppjn348]

Can anyone simplify his methods? Grip, setup, backswing, downswing? I've read his stuff but have found it difficult to digest at times.

[oikos1]

I think he just dissects golfers swings. Don't know if he really has a method. I appreciate what he does and view it as a "take it or leave it" type scenario, depending on what might fit your needs as a golfer...

[mws92]

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2013-12-essentials-of-the-drivehold-swing.html

This is a good place to start. His methodology is called the drive and hold swing.

[DeadPoets]

He talks about rolling the forearms over... most high handicappers don't release through impact at all (chicken wing)... I'm not sure telling someone to "hold" the finish is good advice. Just let momentum do it's thing.

[mws92]

[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401079744' post='9367261']
He talks about rolling the forearms over... most high handicappers don't release through impact at all (chicken wing)... I'm not sure telling someone to "hold" the finish is good advice. Just let momentum do it's thing.
[/quote]

Completely wrong - he advocates keeping the trail arm externally rotated while the lead arm arm is internally rotated, supinate the lead forearm, and bow the lead wrist. You drive this through impact - it keeps stability of the clubface through impact.

[DeadPoets]

[quote name='mws92' timestamp='1401083801' post='9367379']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401079744' post='9367261']
He talks about rolling the forearms over... most high handicappers don't release through impact at all (chicken wing)... I'm not sure telling someone to "hold" the finish is good advice. Just let momentum do it's thing.
[/quote]

Completely wrong - he advocates keeping the trail arm externally rotated while the lead arm arm is internally rotated, supinate the lead forearm, and bow the lead wrist. You drive this through impact - it keeps stability of the clubface through impact.
[/quote]

[b]10. [u]Hold off[/u] or rolling finish? [u]Tiger’s drive/hold follow through shows how hard one must work to stop the clubface from rolling over.[/u] It’s far easier to just roll the arms and relax to the finish but it does not produce anywhere near the clubface stability at impact.[/b]

[mws92]

[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401087191' post='9367437']
[quote name='mws92' timestamp='1401083801' post='9367379']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401079744' post='9367261']
He talks about rolling the forearms over... most high handicappers don't release through impact at all (chicken wing)... I'm not sure telling someone to "hold" the finish is good advice. Just let momentum do it's thing.
[/quote]

Completely wrong - he advocates keeping the trail arm externally rotated while the lead arm arm is internally rotated, supinate the lead forearm, and bow the lead wrist. You drive this through impact - it keeps stability of the clubface through impact.
[/quote]

[b]10. [u]Hold off[/u] or rolling finish? [u]Tiger’s drive/hold follow through shows how hard one must work to stop the clubface from rolling over.[/u] It’s far easier to just roll the arms and relax to the finish but it does not produce anywhere near the clubface stability at impact.[/b]
[/quote]

It's "hard" in that it requires some forearm strength and practice of the correct moves. That doesn't mean he advocates rolling. Sliding, hip stalling, and flipping is also "easier" but that doesn't mean that's what he teaches.

High handicapers chicken wing as a result of things gone wrong prior in the downswing like moving the upper body forward and coming into impact too steep. Rolling finish creates timing whereas driving/holding creates stability whether you are hitting a knock-down 9 iron or a driver.

[DeadPoets]

[quote name='mws92' timestamp='1401087856' post='9367455']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401087191' post='9367437']
[quote name='mws92' timestamp='1401083801' post='9367379']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401079744' post='9367261']
He talks about rolling the forearms over... most high handicappers don't release through impact at all (chicken wing)... I'm not sure telling someone to "hold" the finish is good advice. Just let momentum do it's thing.
[/quote]

Completely wrong - he advocates keeping the trail arm externally rotated while the lead arm arm is internally rotated, supinate the lead forearm, and bow the lead wrist. You drive this through impact - it keeps stability of the clubface through impact.
[/quote]

[b]10. [u]Hold off[/u] or rolling finish? [u]Tiger’s drive/hold follow through shows how hard one must work to stop the clubface from rolling over.[/u] It’s far easier to just roll the arms and relax to the finish but it does not produce anywhere near the clubface stability at impact.[/b]
[/quote]

It's "hard" in that it requires some forearm strength and practice of the correct moves. That doesn't mean he advocates rolling. Sliding, hip stalling, and flipping is also "easier" but that doesn't mean that's what he teaches.

High handicapers chicken wing as a result of things gone wrong prior in the downswing like moving the upper body forward and coming into impact too steep. Rolling finish creates timing whereas driving/holding creates stability whether you are hitting a knock-down 9 iron or a driver.
[/quote]

I never said he advocated rolling - I said the opposite... that his advice to HOLD any kind of finish would be bad advice for amateurs who by and large don't release the club to begin with.

[mws92]

[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401088140' post='9367465']
[quote name='mws92' timestamp='1401087856' post='9367455']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401087191' post='9367437']
[quote name='mws92' timestamp='1401083801' post='9367379']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401079744' post='9367261']
He talks about rolling the forearms over... most high handicappers don't release through impact at all (chicken wing)... I'm not sure telling someone to "hold" the finish is good advice. Just let momentum do it's thing.
[/quote]

Completely wrong - he advocates keeping the trail arm externally rotated while the lead arm arm is internally rotated, supinate the lead forearm, and bow the lead wrist. You drive this through impact - it keeps stability of the clubface through impact.
[/quote]

[b]10. [u]Hold off[/u] or rolling finish? [u]Tiger’s drive/hold follow through shows how hard one must work to stop the clubface from rolling over.[/u] It’s far easier to just roll the arms and relax to the finish but it does not produce anywhere near the clubface stability at impact.[/b]
[/quote]

It's "hard" in that it requires some forearm strength and practice of the correct moves. That doesn't mean he advocates rolling. Sliding, hip stalling, and flipping is also "easier" but that doesn't mean that's what he teaches.

High handicapers chicken wing as a result of things gone wrong prior in the downswing like moving the upper body forward and coming into impact too steep. Rolling finish creates timing whereas driving/holding creates stability whether you are hitting a knock-down 9 iron or a driver.
[/quote]

I never said he advocated rolling - I said the opposite... that his advice to HOLD any kind of finish would be bad advice for amateurs who by and large don't release the club to begin with.
[/quote]

So would you tell a chicken-winger to roll his forearms or fix the other parts of the swing that cause the chicken-wing first?

[DeadPoets]

Yes - correcting someone's finish can change a lot of what happens in the downswing.

[ppjn348]

Sounds like I need to read some earlier articles to get his terminolohy

[mws92]

[quote name='ppjn348' timestamp='1401114764' post='9368319']
Sounds like I need to read some earlier articles to get his terminolohy
[/quote]

Yes it would definitely help. It can be a lot to digest. It's usually best to fix backswing issues first to see if it clears up everything else. From there work on downswing transition moves and see what happens.

[rok78]

[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401088140' post='9367465']
[quote name='mws92' timestamp='1401087856' post='9367455']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401087191' post='9367437']
[quote name='mws92' timestamp='1401083801' post='9367379']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401079744' post='9367261']
He talks about rolling the forearms over... most high handicappers don't release through impact at all (chicken wing)... I'm not sure telling someone to "hold" the finish is good advice. Just let momentum do it's thing.
[/quote]

Completely wrong - he advocates keeping the trail arm externally rotated while the lead arm arm is internally rotated, supinate the lead forearm, and bow the lead wrist. You drive this through impact - it keeps stability of the clubface through impact.
[/quote]

[b]10. [u]Hold off[/u] or rolling finish? [u]Tiger’s drive/hold follow through shows how hard one must work to stop the clubface from rolling over.[/u] It’s far easier to just roll the arms and relax to the finish but it does not produce anywhere near the clubface stability at impact.[/b]
[/quote]

It's "hard" in that it requires some forearm strength and practice of the correct moves. That doesn't mean he advocates rolling. Sliding, hip stalling, and flipping is also "easier" but that doesn't mean that's what he teaches.

High handicapers chicken wing as a result of things gone wrong prior in the downswing like moving the upper body forward and coming into impact too steep. Rolling finish creates timing whereas driving/holding creates stability whether you are hitting a knock-down 9 iron or a driver.
[/quote]

I never said he advocated rolling - I said the opposite... that his advice to HOLD any kind of finish would be bad advice for amateurs who by and large don't release the club to begin with.
[/quote]

The grip he prefers and before mentioned wrist movements are compatible for any person (even amateurs) who do it correctly to utilize his drive/hold release. You are working off your definitions of release and not Kelvin's when he's saying drive/hold. He also has definitions of rolling, flip, under-flip, etc.

[DeadPoets]

Understandable. Are the details of his grip on that page?

[rok78]

[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401158222' post='9371731']
Understandable. Are the details of his grip on that page?
[/quote]

Yes, it's somewhere in those articles of his. Sorry, I can't remember which. But it's a strong to very strong grip, and fits the swing pattern he prefers.

[limcauco]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1401168509' post='9372367']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401158222' post='9371731']
Understandable. Are the details of his grip on that page?
[/quote]

Yes, it's somewhere in those articles of his. Sorry, I can't remember which. But it's a strong to very strong grip, and fits the swing pattern he prefers.
[/quote]

What's Kelvin's reasons for the drive? The hold? And the strong grip?

[Cicero]

[quote name='limcauco' timestamp='1401179055' post='9372557'][quote name='rok78' timestamp='1401168509' post='9372367']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401158222' post='9371731']
Understandable. Are the details of his grip on that page?
[/quote]

Yes, it's somewhere in those articles of his. Sorry, I can't remember which. But it's a strong to very strong grip, and fits the swing pattern he prefers.
[/quote]

What's Kelvin's reasons for the drive? The hold? And the strong grip?[/quote]

The idea is to create a stable club face through the impact interval. Basically, you're squaring the face early in the downswing and maintaining that alignment through impact through body rotation as opposed to rolling or flipping the face from open to closed, as I understand it. A stronger grip means less work to make that early squaring happen.

[pinhigh27]

Average ams gets too flippy. They don't "struggle to release " it. ( I hate the word release). They hit slices because of their swing path.

[Jobu]

[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1401198781' post='9373465']
[quote name='limcauco' timestamp='1401179055' post='9372557'][quote name='rok78' timestamp='1401168509' post='9372367']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401158222' post='9371731']
Understandable. Are the details of his grip on that page?
[/quote]

Yes, it's somewhere in those articles of his. Sorry, I can't remember which. But it's a strong to very strong grip, and fits the swing pattern he prefers.
[/quote]

What's Kelvin's reasons for the drive? The hold? And the strong grip?[/quote]

The idea is to create a stable club face through the impact interval. Basically, you're squaring the face early in the downswing and maintaining that alignment through impact through body rotation as opposed to rolling or flipping the face from open to closed, as I understand it. A stronger grip means less work to make that early squaring happen.
[/quote]

His method is less stable than a rolling release. I guarantee there is more clubface deceleration at impact with a stable release versus a rolling release.

[kyle75]

Seems very complicated, like golf machine theory. Lot of thoughts to have while making a swing that lasts for about a sec. I got sucked into Stack and Tilt and then Golf Machine via Steve Elkington's site. They both make the swing way to complicated in my opinion.

[Cicero]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1401199530' post='9373537'][quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1401198781' post='9373465']
[quote name='limcauco' timestamp='1401179055' post='9372557'][quote name='rok78' timestamp='1401168509' post='9372367']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401158222' post='9371731']
Understandable. Are the details of his grip on that page?
[/quote]

Yes, it's somewhere in those articles of his. Sorry, I can't remember which. But it's a strong to very strong grip, and fits the swing pattern he prefers.
[/quote]

What's Kelvin's reasons for the drive? The hold? And the strong grip?[/quote]

The idea is to create a stable club face through the impact interval. Basically, you're squaring the face early in the downswing and maintaining that alignment through impact through body rotation as opposed to rolling or flipping the face from open to closed, as I understand it. A stronger grip means less work to make that early squaring happen.
[/quote]

His method is less stable than a rolling release. I guarantee there is more clubface deceleration at impact with a stable release versus a rolling release.[/quote]

Maybe. I don't know one way or the other.

[Cicero]

[quote name='kyle75' timestamp='1401199924' post='9373585']Seems very complicated, like golf machine theory. Lot of thoughts to have while making a swing that lasts for about a sec. I got sucked into Stack and Tilt and then Golf Machine via Steve Elkington's site. They both make the swing way to complicated in my opinion.[/quote]

Yeah. I was heavy into TGM for awhile myself. Figured I could become a better golfer if I knew swing theory inside out. I still enjoy learning about golf theory. But I learned that my head does more harm than good when it comes to the practical application of the golf swing for me. 1 or 2 things, and let's go.

[exgolfpro]

[quote name='ppjn348' timestamp='1401065152' post='9366169']
Can anyone simplify his methods? Grip, setup, backswing, downswing? I've read his stuff but have found it difficult to digest at times.
[/quote]

His system started with a premise that the spine and all of the muscles attached, were actually the driving force of the modern golf swing (Tiger Woods original 2 versions). So he set out to learn the movements of this swing. His early two models were Tiger Woods and Jamie Sadlowski (sp?). From there he started to expand his theory trying to learn what the most powerful drivers of the ball do that the other players (and us) do not do. At this point, he started using very high speed cameras to catch what he calls "micro moves". Small movements that can only be seen by these high speed cameras. He also set out to make some training aides to help teach some of these moves.

I am a big fan of Kelvin and think his analysis is spot on....but I find his ideas extremely hard to incorporate due to the fact that he is not standing in front of me telling me 'yes that is right' or 'no that is wrong'. I can't see those micro moves so I find it hard to know if I'm going down the right path.

[Atrayn]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1401199530' post='9373537']
[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1401198781' post='9373465']
[quote name='limcauco' timestamp='1401179055' post='9372557'][quote name='rok78' timestamp='1401168509' post='9372367']
[quote name='DeadPoets' timestamp='1401158222' post='9371731']
Understandable. Are the details of his grip on that page?
[/quote]

Yes, it's somewhere in those articles of his. Sorry, I can't remember which. But it's a strong to very strong grip, and fits the swing pattern he prefers.
[/quote]

What's Kelvin's reasons for the drive? The hold? And the strong grip?[/quote]

The idea is to create a stable club face through the impact interval. Basically, you're squaring the face early in the downswing and maintaining that alignment through impact through body rotation as opposed to rolling or flipping the face from open to closed, as I understand it. A stronger grip means less work to make that early squaring happen.
[/quote]

His method is less stable than a rolling release. I guarantee there is more clubface deceleration at impact with a stable release versus a rolling release.
[/quote]

Jobu - Do you have any data to back this up?

[eightiron]

You can find info on Jeffy golf forum , warning though , currently they are at war with Manzella site

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='kyle75' timestamp='1401199924' post='9373585']
Seems very complicated, like golf machine theory. Lot of thoughts to have while making a swing that lasts for about a sec. I got sucked into Stack and Tilt and then Golf Machine via Steve Elkington's site. They both make the swing way to complicated in my opinion.
[/quote]

Only as complicated as you make it. It would be complicated for you to read a 747 flight manual, but you're not a pilot(assuming of course, if you are then insert other thing that's outwardly complex). Yet that doesn't stop you from using the plane. A TGM or S&T teacher can help you out, and make what they're saying on a much easier to understand level. You shouldn't discredit a source because you can't understand it. I'd say that if you were a player trying to improve, you wouldn't try to understand it. You'd go to someone that already does, and have them help you. If you want to learn to be a golf instructor, read TGM. IF you want to learn to be a better golfer, go to an instructor, don't attempt to become one.

[Cicero]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1401204854' post='9374121']You can find info on Jeffy golf forum , warning though , currently they are at war with Manzella site[/quote]

Yeah, that thing is ugly. I don't know exactly what happened, but it has very little to do with golf. It's very personal.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1401204986' post='9374141'] [quote name='kyle75' timestamp='1401199924' post='9373585'] Seems very complicated, like golf machine theory. Lot of thoughts to have while making a swing that lasts for about a sec. I got sucked into Stack and Tilt and then Golf Machine via Steve Elkington's site. They both make the swing way to complicated in my opinion. [/quote] Only as complicated as you make it. It would be complicated for you to read a 747 flight manual, but you're not a pilot(assuming of course, if you are then insert other thing that's outwardly complex). Yet that doesn't stop you from using the plane. A TGM or S&T teacher can help you out, and make what they're saying on a much easier to understand level. You shouldn't discredit a source because you can't understand it. I'd say that if you were a player trying to improve, you wouldn't try to understand it. You'd go to someone that already does, and have them help you. If you want to learn to be a golf instructor, read TGM. IF you want to learn to be a better golfer, go to an instructor, don't attempt to become one. [/quote]

One of the best posts I've seen in a long time.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1401204854' post='9374121']
You can find info on Jeffy golf forum , warning though , currently they are at war with Manzella site
[/quote]

They've been at war for years.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1401205224' post='9374167']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1401204854' post='9374121']You can find info on Jeffy golf forum , warning though , currently they are at war with Manzella site[/quote]

Yeah, that thing is ugly. I don't know exactly what happened, but it has very little to do with golf. It's very personal.
[/quote]

For a bonus a visit to Newton Golf Institute ( pretty sure it's a hospital with padded cells) where Jeff Mann posts all by himself bagging Kelvin and Jeffy