OPS and swinging left/pitch right elbow

[MK7Golf21]

been going to a level 3 hardy instructor that lives near me and really got an understanding of swinging left and how to accomplish it. Hardy has a really good understanding of how this is essential for a more rotational one plane swing. My only concern has been their view on the right elbow/ not teaching a pitch right elbow that we see in hogan, even though Kuchar gets his right elbow in front! So I have been combining what they have taught me about how to swing left with the pitch right elbow that I have been studying in hogans swing. Anyone have experience with this?

[bph7]

I mean, you are right that Hogan was pitch and Hardy teaches more of a punch, but I cannot see how it's productive to see an instructor but try to implement something else. If you wanna look more like Hogan, then stop going to the Hardy teacher, because you are gonna be mixing tons of incompatible parts by doing so. FWIW, I think that, while the Hardy method is a viable way to swing, it's nowhere near Hogan, but no one ever said you had to swing like Hogan to play well. Just depends on what you are looking to do.

[TB07]

It would be more advisable, if you want pitch elbow, to keep it more in front going back. Hardy's one plane would have it deeper/more behind the body in backswing.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1402949121' post='9508463']
I mean, you are right that Hogan was pitch and Hardy teaches more of a punch, but I cannot see how it's productive to see an instructor but try to implement something else. If you wanna look more like Hogan, then stop going to the Hardy teacher, because you are gonna be mixing tons of incompatible parts by doing so. FWIW, I think that, while the Hardy method is a viable way to swing, it's nowhere near Hogan, but no one ever said you had to swing like Hogan to play well. Just depends on what you are looking to do.
[/quote]

I know what you mean. The flaw in my swing has always been too much in to out and without this instructor I wouldnt of fixed it. I saw him the other day hadnt been to him in a year or so and forgot about the knowledge they had on swinging left, fixed my ballflight when it finally worked for me. To be clear though I dont agree with some of the stuff they teach on the first part starting down, can get your shaft too steep for me personally. As long as Im swinging left and the path is better, i dont think he is going to be teaching me to keep my elbow back. I mean hes not teaching me the model piece for piece, hes just fixing flaws in my swing. Il explain myself to him as well

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1402949548' post='9508527']
It would be more advisable, if you want pitch elbow, to keep it more in front going back. Hardy's one plane would have it deeper/more behind the body in backswing.
[/quote]

I agree, thanks for the advice. Ive asked him how my backswing is and he said its good, just make sure the clubhead is outside of hands on takeaway. Hes not concerned about me getting my right elbow behind my shirt seam. At that point I would start looking for a different instructor. Like I saw these guys have a great knowledge of a one plane swing. Look at kuchar, his right elbow gets in front

[Lefty_3Jack]

I worked with a OPS instructor 2 times a week for months and found it was really easy to get the elbow up and behind me and it felt natural. The tough part was getting the rotational part right to allow the arms to be that far behind you. I've had to work to try and get more vertical/in front of my body because I struggled with the rotation and didn't have the stomach to give it a year to try and learn.

I understand what Hardy wants to see at impact, but I've only seen a handful of guys anywhere that could get to that impact position and like you I understand that while they are there at impact they are not necessarily doing it with that trail elbow behind them at the top of the swing like prescribed. There are plenty of "one plane" swingers without it as far back as they prescribe.

[jconroy12]

I think the main difference is the posture at address. Hogan had a fairly upright posture with a shallow plane so in order to keep the club on plane he needed to use the pitch elbow. Jim hardy would have students bent over more at address and have the torso as the dominant part of the swing. If you used Hogans pitch elbow on the downswing while bent over more at the hips you would get the club stuck behind you and come into impact with a wide open club face

[MK7Golf21]

speaking of, anyone know a really good hogan inspired teacher in illinois?

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='jconroy12' timestamp='1402950742' post='9508681']
I think the main difference is the posture at address. Hogan had a fairly upright posture with a shallow plane so in order to keep the club on plane he needed to use the pitch elbow. Jim hardy would have students bent over more at address and have the torso as the dominant part of the swing. If you used Hogans pitch elbow on the downswing while bent over more at the hips you would get the club stuck behind you and come into impact with a wide open club face
[/quote]

well hogan did at address but he also lowered big time in the swing which would be the same as bending over more. Hogan swung so much left that the pitch elbow/opening of the face worked well. Many people who try to swing left have too much of a hooky swing, clubface closing and hit pulls and draws.

[JPGolf FL]

Pitch and punch elbow can be very ambiguous terms. Especially pitch. Easy to overdo pitch and get way under plane.

[jconroy12]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1402951027' post='9508727']
[quote name='jconroy12' timestamp='1402950742' post='9508681']
I think the main difference is the posture at address. Hogan had a fairly upright posture with a shallow plane so in order to keep the club on plane he needed to use the pitch elbow. Jim hardy would have students bent over more at address and have the torso as the dominant part of the swing. If you used Hogans pitch elbow on the downswing while bent over more at the hips you would get the club stuck behind you and come into impact with a wide open club face
[/quote]

well hogan did at address but he also lowered big time in the swing which would be the same as bending over more. Hogan swung so much left that the pitch elbow/opening of the face worked well. Many people who try to swing left have too much of a hooky swing, clubface closing and hit pulls and draws.
[/quote]

Because Hogan was more upright at address, his right arm came back on a different path than if a golfer was bent over more at address. This caused hogans left wrist to have a slight cup which needed to be flattened on the downswing. A hardy student should have more of a flat/bowed left wrist at the top and the downswing would feel as if the right palm was going straight down towards the ground instead of facing skywards a Hogan would have it.
Both moves are correct and all depends on the position at the top. My opinion would be the hardys method would be more straight forward and consistent.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1402952544' post='9508887']
Pitch and punch elbow can be very ambiguous terms. Especially pitch. Easy to overdo pitch and get way under plane.
[/quote]

that makes sense, how would you recommend to do pitch without getting underplane?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1402953509' post='9509013']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1402952544' post='9508887']
Pitch and punch elbow can be very ambiguous terms. Especially pitch. Easy to overdo pitch and get way under plane.
[/quote]

that makes sense, how would you recommend to do pitch without getting underplane?
[/quote]
Too many factors.... Without seeing it the only thing to say is that it has to match up with everything else. IOW don't let the "idea" of being in pitch make you want more pitch. If you are steep, maybe.... If you are already under plane, you might need less.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1402949121' post='9508463']
I mean, you are right that Hogan was pitch and Hardy teaches more of a punch, but I cannot see how it's productive to see an instructor but try to implement something else. If you wanna look more like Hogan, then stop going to the Hardy teacher, because you are gonna be mixing tons of incompatible parts by doing so. FWIW, I think that, while the Hardy method is a viable way to swing, it's nowhere near Hogan, but no one ever said you had to swing like Hogan to play well. Just depends on what you are looking to do.
[/quote]

This...

Also really difficult to swing as left as hardy wants with a pitch elbow. Recipe for major wipes and handle dragging.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1402957994' post='9509459']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1402949121' post='9508463']
I mean, you are right that Hogan was pitch and Hardy teaches more of a punch, but I cannot see how it's productive to see an instructor but try to implement something else. If you wanna look more like Hogan, then stop going to the Hardy teacher, because you are gonna be mixing tons of incompatible parts by doing so. FWIW, I think that, while the Hardy method is a viable way to swing, it's nowhere near Hogan, but no one ever said you had to swing like Hogan to play well. Just depends on what you are looking to do.
[/quote]

This...

Also really difficult to swing as left as hardy wants with a pitch elbow. Recipe for major wipes and handle dragging.
[/quote]

Ok, I just don't want the shaft getting steep looking on downswing. Anyone have a video of a model hardy swing?

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1402969570' post='9510889']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1402957994' post='9509459']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1402949121' post='9508463']
I mean, you are right that Hogan was pitch and Hardy teaches more of a punch, but I cannot see how it's productive to see an instructor but try to implement something else. If you wanna look more like Hogan, then stop going to the Hardy teacher, because you are gonna be mixing tons of incompatible parts by doing so. FWIW, I think that, while the Hardy method is a viable way to swing, it's nowhere near Hogan, but no one ever said you had to swing like Hogan to play well. Just depends on what you are looking to do.
[/quote]

This...

Also really difficult to swing as left as hardy wants with a pitch elbow. Recipe for major wipes and handle dragging.
[/quote]

Ok, I just don't want the shaft getting steep looking on downswing. Anyone have a video of a model hardy swing?
[/quote]

Check out any vids of Pernice before 2013.

And you can definitely be punchy and not be steep.

[jconroy12]

This should help explain the motion

[url="http://youtu.be/bBmuEHmGqeM"]http://youtu.be/bBmuEHmGqeM[/url]

[MK7Golf21]

Thanks, that explains some of the stuff he has tried to teach me before, his name is rick sellers, excellent guy and teacher. Why do they want the right elbow at least on shirt seam and never in front, lv?

[TB07]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1403008016' post='9513159']
Thanks, that explains some of the stuff he has tried to teach me before, his name is rick sellers, excellent guy and teacher. Why do they want the right elbow at least on shirt seam and never in front, lv?
[/quote]

Let's see what LV's answer is as well. In simple terms, much like SnT, they want a deep hand path, which requires steeper shoulders. The deeper the hands and steeper the shoulders will normally have more of a bent trail arm.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1403008016' post='9513159']
Thanks, that explains some of the stuff he has tried to teach me before, his name is rick sellers, excellent guy and teacher. Why do they want the right elbow at least on shirt seam and never in front, lv?
[/quote]

Hardy believed (not sure if he still does, I left the camp 4 years ago) that the more the rt elbow goes into punch, the more stable the clubface would be. If the right elbow leads, he felt the the clubface would come in too open which required manipulation of forearms and hands to square. Rt elbow lead = club behind body which resulted in golfers being stuck, clubface opening and closing, high rate of closure. Punch rt elbow = club more in front, clubface square to arc, slower rate of closure, eliminating the high right/low left issue that many good players were facing.

His theory was great for the stuck player like me and honestly helped me a ton. The problem was too many average players became WAY too steep in the downswing trying to get their right elbow behind their body. Also I don't feel like a player should ever force swinging left. A low left finish should be the result from a good backswing and a proper pivot.

Hope this helped.

[TB07]

LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403013909' post='9513861']
LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.
[/quote]
IMO deep, late pitch encourages steeper shoulders, more tilt, less rotation...... Body type does play a role so it's not always a bad thing. Everyone talks about Hogan being so pitch, his upper arm never goes past perpendicular to the ground. I'm not sure of the exact concrete definition of pitch as I think it is a bit ambiguous, but I think some people think of pitch and overdo it getting the elbow way out in front late in the DS which can make the right shoulder drop too much.

[TB07]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1403015785' post='9514153']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403013909' post='9513861']
LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.
[/quote]
IMO deep, late pitch encourages steeper shoulders, more tilt, less rotation...... Body type does play a role so it's not always a bad thing. Everyone talks about Hogan being so pitch, his upper arm never goes past perpendicular to the ground. I'm not sure of the exact concrete definition of pitch as I think it is a bit ambiguous, but I think some people think of pitch and overdo it getting the elbow way out in front late in the DS which can make the right shoulder drop too much.
[/quote]

I agree. The more pitch I get the more I feel the need to stall the rotation. Just me I'm sure, but I can be much more aggressive from punch. The other scenario is the amount of bend in the elbow. The more tilt, the more bend. So there's another scenario where if the elbow is too pitch, trail shoulder too down, elbow bent, could get club/arms away from the golfer too much causing a wipe. Another commonality for those who try and over do pitch.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403013909' post='9513861']
LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.
[/quote]

In order to be as punch as Hardy wants, the left arm will definitely be too far across chest which will force/require shoulders to be open at impact for decent results. Most people don't have the flexibility or athleticism to pull this off. Also like you mentioned, if shoulder stalls then the whole motion falls apart.

The other issue is the punch/club more in front move steepens the shaft which for most ams is a horrible idea.

IMO kuchar(eventhough he's more pitch than O'connell wants, why IMO he fights left' sunder pressure) is a great example of what can be done with this swing. Very accurate, very consistent, but it's not as dynamic as other methods. I was incredibly accurate with the model but lost distance.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1403015785' post='9514153']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403013909' post='9513861']
LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.
[/quote]
IMO deep, late pitch encourages steeper shoulders, more tilt, less rotation...... Body type does play a role so it's not always a bad thing. Everyone talks about Hogan being so pitch, his upper arm never goes past perpendicular to the ground. I'm not sure of the exact concrete definition of pitch as I think it is a bit ambiguous, but I think some people think of pitch and overdo it getting the elbow way out in front late in the DS which can make the right shoulder drop too much.
[/quote]

This.

Talking to a few of the instructors in the hardy camp, a few former tour players. They all talked about how the punch elbow/swinging left stuff changed their lives. They had gone down the TGM super pitch road and were all so underneath they hit it right of right and left of left. Zero clubface control/stability. Hardy had so much success with this with good players, he felt like it was a no brainer to release to the general public. Problem is the general public aren't underneath and flippy. Getting their elbow back more just made them worse.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1403016984' post='9514355']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1403015785' post='9514153']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403013909' post='9513861']
LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.
[/quote]
IMO deep, late pitch encourages steeper shoulders, more tilt, less rotation...... Body type does play a role so it's not always a bad thing. Everyone talks about Hogan being so pitch, his upper arm never goes past perpendicular to the ground. I'm not sure of the exact concrete definition of pitch as I think it is a bit ambiguous, but I think some people think of pitch and overdo it getting the elbow way out in front late in the DS which can make the right shoulder drop too much.
[/quote]

This.

Talking to a few of the instructors in the hardy camp, a few former tour players. They all talked about how the punch elbow/swinging left stuff changed their lives. They had gone down the TGM super pitch road and were all so underneath they hit it right of right and left of left. Zero clubface control/stability. Hardy had so much success with this with good players, he felt like it was a no brainer to release to the general public. Problem is the general public aren't underneath and flippy. Getting their elbow back more just made them worse.
[/quote]

Thanks lv, that is some good info and makes alot of sense. When they were telling me to do that move, it was against everything I had learned. My shaft had always looked more steep and I was trying to go the other way. When they were telling me to throw the clubhead out, it was against what I wanted my swing to look like. It did straighten out the path from being so in to out though.Why did you end of leaving the punch elbow/ops stuff, lv? What do you do now and what differnces have you noticed, pros and cons?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1403016984' post='9514355']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1403015785' post='9514153']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403013909' post='9513861']
LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.
[/quote]
IMO deep, late pitch encourages steeper shoulders, more tilt, less rotation...... Body type does play a role so it's not always a bad thing. Everyone talks about Hogan being so pitch, his upper arm never goes past perpendicular to the ground. I'm not sure of the exact concrete definition of pitch as I think it is a bit ambiguous, but I think some people think of pitch and overdo it getting the elbow way out in front late in the DS which can make the right shoulder drop too much.
[/quote]

This.

Talking to a few of the instructors in the hardy camp, a few former tour players. They all talked about how the punch elbow/swinging left stuff changed their lives. They had gone down the TGM super pitch road and were all so underneath they hit it right of right and left of left. Zero clubface control/stability. Hardy had so much success with this with good players, he felt like it was a no brainer to release to the general public. Problem is the general public aren't underneath and flippy. Getting their elbow back more just made them worse.
[/quote]
Exactly.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1403018616' post='9514653']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1403016984' post='9514355']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1403015785' post='9514153']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403013909' post='9513861']
LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.
[/quote]
IMO deep, late pitch encourages steeper shoulders, more tilt, less rotation...... Body type does play a role so it's not always a bad thing. Everyone talks about Hogan being so pitch, his upper arm never goes past perpendicular to the ground. I'm not sure of the exact concrete definition of pitch as I think it is a bit ambiguous, but I think some people think of pitch and overdo it getting the elbow way out in front late in the DS which can make the right shoulder drop too much.
[/quote]

This.

Talking to a few of the instructors in the hardy camp, a few former tour players. They all talked about how the punch elbow/swinging left stuff changed their lives. They had gone down the TGM super pitch road and were all so underneath they hit it right of right and left of left. Zero clubface control/stability. Hardy had so much success with this with good players, he felt like it was a no brainer to release to the general public. Problem is the general public aren't underneath and flippy. Getting their elbow back more just made them worse.
[/quote]

Thanks lv, that is some good info and makes alot of sense. When they were telling me to do that move, it was against everything I had learned. My shaft had always looked more steep and I was trying to go the other way. When they were telling me to throw the clubhead out, it was against what I wanted my swing to look like. It did straighten out the path from being so in to out though.Why did you end of leaving the punch elbow/ops stuff, lv? What do you do now and what differnces have you noticed, pros and cons?
[/quote]

A bit of boredom, greed, and part to do with my instructor. He was a lvl 3 hardy associate at the time but was always wanting to learn new and better ways to teach. He ended up getting close with the S&T camp and we started mixing and matching some of their stuff. I started fighting hooks, something I never fought with Hardy's model and so I moved on. We just didn't know enough about cause and effect at the time.

IMO Jim Waldron coined it best when he said Hardy's stuff falls into the fallacy of extremes. All the movements aren't necessary. Bits and pieces, yes. But going full punch with deep arms can be really difficult to do.

Without question my best with hardy stuff was my most accurate way to play. But I sacrificed quite a bit of distance. I didn't drive it quite as well due to tendency to get steep but I was a better iron player than I am now.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1403019532' post='9514801']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1403018616' post='9514653']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1403016984' post='9514355']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1403015785' post='9514153']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403013909' post='9513861']
LV,

Are you saying more punch elbow helped you swing left more or just keep from getting stuck?

It's an interesting scenario (and individual) to think that a more punch elbow COULD help the shoulders open more and thus help path left. If the shoulders stalled however this would be an issue from punch and probably why amatuers struggle with it (can't get open enough). Would cause flipping and/or the release going away from body and thus swinging more rightward. What's your thoughts on this? I've always been more punch, steeper shaft, but from the inside. Pitch completely ruins my swing.
[/quote]
IMO deep, late pitch encourages steeper shoulders, more tilt, less rotation...... Body type does play a role so it's not always a bad thing. Everyone talks about Hogan being so pitch, his upper arm never goes past perpendicular to the ground. I'm not sure of the exact concrete definition of pitch as I think it is a bit ambiguous, but I think some people think of pitch and overdo it getting the elbow way out in front late in the DS which can make the right shoulder drop too much.
[/quote]

This.

Talking to a few of the instructors in the hardy camp, a few former tour players. They all talked about how the punch elbow/swinging left stuff changed their lives. They had gone down the TGM super pitch road and were all so underneath they hit it right of right and left of left. Zero clubface control/stability. Hardy had so much success with this with good players, he felt like it was a no brainer to release to the general public. Problem is the general public aren't underneath and flippy. Getting their elbow back more just made them worse.
[/quote]

Thanks lv, that is some good info and makes alot of sense. When they were telling me to do that move, it was against everything I had learned. My shaft had always looked more steep and I was trying to go the other way. When they were telling me to throw the clubhead out, it was against what I wanted my swing to look like. It did straighten out the path from being so in to out though.Why did you end of leaving the punch elbow/ops stuff, lv? What do you do now and what differnces have you noticed, pros and cons?
[/quote]

A bit of boredom, greed, and part to do with my instructor. He was a lvl 3 hardy associate at the time but was always wanting to learn new and better ways to teach. He ended up getting close with the S&T camp and we started mixing and matching some of their stuff. I started fighting hooks, something I never fought with Hardy's model and so I moved on. We just didn't know enough about cause and effect at the time.

IMO Jim Waldron coined it best when he said Hardy's stuff falls into the fallacy of extremes. All the movements aren't necessary. Bits and pieces, yes. But going full punch with deep arms can be really difficult to do.

Without question my best with hardy stuff was my most accurate way to play. But I sacrificed quite a bit of distance. I didn't drive it quite as well due to tendency to get steep but I was a better iron player than I am now.
[/quote]

so you think someone that has too much of a in to out path, push shot as a miss, the ops would be good? The thing that really helped for me was the woodchop drill, when first trying throwing the clubhead out I was hitting double crosses because I was use to being in to out, clubface was too closed and flippy for that move I guess.

[jconroy12]

I agree that hardy goes on a bit with unnecessary stuff and if you where learning his ideas it would sound very complex. But saying that his ideas about the swing are good and worth studying. I play golf with both a OPS and TPS and feel that both swing types are needed to play good golf.
If I want to play a fade I will use a TPS, A draw is a OPS. If the ball is below my feet or on a downhill slope it is a TPS. If the ball is above my feet or uphill slope it is a OPS.
There is no real definite rules and when I play a shot I assess the situation and decide which swing type is best suited to the shot.