What separates extremely good putters from average putters? Mind or mechanics?

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Hoot151' timestamp='1403878064' post='9589687']
I agree that confidence is key, but what do you do when you've missed so many putts that your confidence is gone? I'm talking about constantly burning the edge and lip outs, they just won't fall. [i][b]This is where I have been for a long time and eventually you start to think "I'm cursed".[/b][/i]
[/quote]

Simple.

[b][i]Stop thinking like that....and when thoughts like that pop into your head unbidden, DON'T BELIEVE THEM.[/i][/b]

You get "burning edge" and "lip out" puts in large numbers for one of two reasons.

1. Minor errors in targeting and/or speed. That is, instead of using the center of the cup as your target and visualizing the putt hitting that target you talk to yourself in terms of "left edge" and "right edge" putts. So your mind thinks that the edges of the cup are your intended targets...and that's what your putts actually hit.

2. Law of Averages. Like the hitter in baseball who is "seeing the ball well" at the plate and is going through a patch of hitting the ball hard...but always AT someone, so he's not getting any base hits to show for his efforts. The only way to deal with this is to stay positive and TRUST that it can't go on forever, and the hits---and the putts---will eventually start to drop.

The worst thing to do is start trying to fix your stroke or your swing...or get caught up in negative patterns of thinking. That turns a patch of bad luck into a slump...or the yips.

[Reasonability]

[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1403881574' post='9590173']
Putting is weird.

You need to be able to hit the line and the speed you intend. You need to learn this through practice on a practice green. You need to be able to stroll up to any 3 footer and be pretty sure you're making it. You should be able to roll in a dead-straight 8 footer pretty consistently. If you can't do that, then there's something wrong with your stroke. You need to practice.

But when you get that down, you need to start worrying about reading greens. Ability to read greens just seems experiential. You've been on 1000's of greens in your life. If you're really surprised by something, you need to pay more attention.

But, I don't know if putting is an art or a science. It dawned on me a long time ago that when I thought a putt was "right edge" (for example), I'd roll a putt right over the right edge. Or if I picked a "mark" on the green to roll the ball over on the way to the hole, I'd hit that mark every time. At some point, I just started thinking "make it" on every putt. I pick a place that I think the putt has to enter the hole, but very subconscious things happen. I might hit a putt with a foot of break and just kind of think that I played it straight at the hole because I was just thinking about the hole and all my experience put the foot of break on it. I don't even like to intellectualize it as much as I've done here.

I don't know if I'm good or not, but I NEVER think I putted poorly. I always just think that on some days, you hit 5/7 of your 50-50's and some days you hit 2/7 of your 50-50's and that's the way it goes. Oh, occasionally I make a bad stroke at a putt, but that doesn't really mean anything.

I missed a few short ones in a tournament last weekend, but I made some long ones, and the short ones were sort of difficult short ones. Just one of them would have made a difference in tournament results, but I also had a chip-in from a long way out and a 50 foot putt.

Does it sound like I'm rationalizing away bad putts? That's probably a good thing. You can't dwell on them. Sorry for the train of consciousness.

I'll tell ya one thing, though. I never change putters. I've had 2 putters in the last 30 years (well, 3, but one was stolen and I replaced it with same). I think changing putters is the worst kind of equipment change you can make.
[/quote]

I relate! My years of filling the closet with putters also ended long ago. Dave Stockton talks about putting along similar lines you do. Yes he has "some" defined mechanics for sure -- but his view point is to get into a routine, setup and go trusting your feel system and then let things average out. That's not a stream of consciousness you shared... its the voice of experience.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1403886804' post='9590717']
[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1403881574' post='9590173']
Putting is weird.

You need to be able to hit the line and the speed you intend. You need to learn this through practice on a practice green. You need to be able to stroll up to any 3 footer and be pretty sure you're making it. You should be able to roll in a dead-straight 8 footer pretty consistently. If you can't do that, then there's something wrong with your stroke. You need to practice.

But when you get that down, you need to start worrying about reading greens. Ability to read greens just seems experiential. You've been on 1000's of greens in your life. If you're really surprised by something, you need to pay more attention.

But, I don't know if putting is an art or a science. It dawned on me a long time ago that when I thought a putt was "right edge" (for example), I'd roll a putt right over the right edge. Or if I picked a "mark" on the green to roll the ball over on the way to the hole, I'd hit that mark every time. At some point, I just started thinking "make it" on every putt. I pick a place that I think the putt has to enter the hole, but very subconscious things happen. I might hit a putt with a foot of break and just kind of think that I played it straight at the hole because I was just thinking about the hole and all my experience put the foot of break on it. I don't even like to intellectualize it as much as I've done here.

I don't know if I'm good or not, but I NEVER think I putted poorly. I always just think that on some days, you hit 5/7 of your 50-50's and some days you hit 2/7 of your 50-50's and that's the way it goes. Oh, occasionally I make a bad stroke at a putt, but that doesn't really mean anything.

I missed a few short ones in a tournament last weekend, but I made some long ones, and the short ones were sort of difficult short ones. Just one of them would have made a difference in tournament results, but I also had a chip-in from a long way out and a 50 foot putt.

Does it sound like I'm rationalizing away bad putts? That's probably a good thing. You can't dwell on them. Sorry for the train of consciousness.

I'll tell ya one thing, though. I never change putters. I've had 2 putters in the last 30 years (well, 3, but one was stolen and I replaced it with same). I think changing putters is the worst kind of equipment change you can make.
[/quote]

I relate! My years of filling the closet with putters also ended long ago. Dave Stockton talks about putting along similar lines you do. Yes he has "some" defined mechanics for sure -- but his view point is to get into a routine, setup and go trusting your feel system and then let things average out. That's not a stream of consciousness you shared... its the voice of experience.
[/quote]


...and wisdom.

[bellview17]

Well, I am sorry to say but I am one of the people who can putt lights out.
I don't really practice that much and can't drive long (268 gps avg). Irons are average at best
not much wedge game and stink at sand... I have a 7 hdcp and look like a 15 swinging.
I did practice a lot as a kid, and I enjoy putting.

I just look at the putt from behind, pick a line and one practice stroke and let it go.
I had a round with 12 putts on the front and 10 on the back last year, I track my putting amounts and
only 3 putt every 4 rounds. I have no idea how, I just roll the ball along the line I picked.

[pmcuk]

[quote name='Hoot151' timestamp='1403878064' post='9589687']
I agree that confidence is key, but what do you do when you've missed so many putts that your confidence is gone? I'm talking about constantly burning the edge and lip outs, they just won't fall. This is where I have been for a long time and eventually you start to think "I'm cursed".
[/quote]

If you get really good at mindfulness you simply don't think, so none of this applies. Once you can empty you head completely and breathe slowly and choose the optimum moment to let go you're starting to feel like what it is to be in the Zone. That's where you want to be for putting. Don't think, just use your senses.

[PJ72]

[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1403881574' post='9590173']
Putting is weird.

You need to be able to hit the line and the speed you intend. You need to learn this through practice on a practice green. You need to be able to stroll up to any 3 footer and be pretty sure you're making it. You should be able to roll in a dead-straight 8 footer pretty consistently. If you can't do that, then there's something wrong with your stroke. You need to practice.

But when you get that down, you need to start worrying about reading greens. Ability to read greens just seems experiential. You've been on 1000's of greens in your life. If you're really surprised by something, you need to pay more attention.

But, I don't know if putting is an art or a science. It dawned on me a long time ago that when I thought a putt was "right edge" (for example), I'd roll a putt right over the right edge. Or if I picked a "mark" on the green to roll the ball over on the way to the hole, I'd hit that mark every time. At some point, I just started thinking "make it" on every putt. I pick a place that I think the putt has to enter the hole, but very subconscious things happen. I might hit a putt with a foot of break and just kind of think that I played it straight at the hole because I was just thinking about the hole and all my experience put the foot of break on it. I don't even like to intellectualize it as much as I've done here.

I don't know if I'm good or not, but I NEVER think I putted poorly. I always just think that on some days, you hit 5/7 of your 50-50's and some days you hit 2/7 of your 50-50's and that's the way it goes. Oh, occasionally I make a bad stroke at a putt, but that doesn't really mean anything.

I missed a few short ones in a tournament last weekend, but I made some long ones, and the short ones were sort of difficult short ones. Just one of them would have made a difference in tournament results, but I also had a chip-in from a long way out and a 50 foot putt.

Does it sound like I'm rationalizing away bad putts? That's probably a good thing. You can't dwell on them. Sorry for the train of consciousness.

I'll tell ya one thing, though. I never change putters. I've had 2 putters in the last 30 years (well, 3, but one was stolen and I replaced it with same). I think changing putters is the worst kind of equipment change you can make.
[/quote]

I agree with much of what you've said there.

I think you've got it spot on about the straight, 8 footer. I can set up a 12-15 foot putt on the practice green with anything up to 12" of break and, using a 'string-line', I can hole 7-8 out of ten and lip out the rest. I often hole 4 or 5 straight. Once I get into that 'zone' and I know I'm aiming exactly where I think I am (using the string line above the ball), I feel like I can't miss. And the ones that do miss and shave the hole/lip out, I'm still very happy because 70-80% from 12-15ft is twice as good as the best tour pro (40%). Now THAT gives me confidence, and THAT is what makes me get in the 'zone' and hole putts.

[Bobalu]

[quote name='pmcuk' timestamp='1403900503' post='9592249']
[quote name='Hoot151' timestamp='1403878064' post='9589687']
I agree that confidence is key, but what do you do when you've missed so many putts that your confidence is gone? I'm talking about constantly burning the edge and lip outs, they just won't fall. This is where I have been for a long time and eventually you start to think "I'm cursed".
[/quote]

If you get really good at mindfulness you simply don't think, so none of this applies. Once you can empty you head completely and breathe slowly and choose the optimum moment to let go you're starting to feel like what it is to be in the Zone. That's where you want to be for putting. Don't think, just use your senses.
[/quote]

Can you recommend a good read or resource for mindfulness training as it may be applied to putting?

[Llortamaisey]

Extremely good putters aren't afraid to miss.

[bsb70x7]

"1. Minor errors in targeting and/or speed. That is, instead of using the center of the cup as your target and visualizing the putt hitting that target you talk to yourself in terms of "left edge" and "right edge" putts. So your mind thinks that the edges of the cup are your intended targets...and that's what your putts actually hit."

I am a lipper. Never thought of it this way. This was a wonderful thought. Thanks!!

[saltcity]

I think it was Miller Barber (could be wrong) who said, when asked about great putting/putters - "Great putters make great putts". Meaning, great putters make the 'big ones' - to win a key hole, to save par, to stop or change the momentum of a round/match, really difficult nerve racking putts - they make those. He considered Arnold Palmer one of the all time great putters for that reason. I tend to agree, having played against some decent players who just seem to always make the big putts, I consider them great putters.

[pmcuk]

[quote name='Bobalu' timestamp='1403909814' post='9593119']
[quote name='pmcuk' timestamp='1403900503' post='9592249']
[quote name='Hoot151' timestamp='1403878064' post='9589687']
I agree that confidence is key, but what do you do when you've missed so many putts that your confidence is gone? I'm talking about constantly burning the edge and lip outs, they just won't fall. This is where I have been for a long time and eventually you start to think "I'm cursed".
[/quote]

If you get really good at mindfulness you simply don't think, so none of this applies. Once you can empty you head completely and breathe slowly and choose the optimum moment to let go you're starting to feel like what it is to be in the Zone. That's where you want to be for putting. Don't think, just use your senses.
[/quote]

Can you recommend a good read or resource for mindfulness training as it may be applied to putting?
[/quote]

Just google mindfulness and you should get loads of info. Doesn't have to be for golfers.

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1403886670' post='9590703']

[b][i]Stop thinking like that....and when thoughts like that pop into your head unbidden, DON'T BELIEVE THEM.[/i][/b]


[/quote]

This is among the most important mental skills in every aspect of life.

[oldschoolrocker]

Confidence.

[Ripper212]

[quote name='Bobalu' timestamp='1403814389' post='9585021']
[quote name='Mob' timestamp='1403809929' post='9584513']
I played with a friend of mine last week who is a 6 handicap and seems to "show up" in any tournament play. In tournaments, he typically shoots in the mid 70's. He may be a sand bagger, but that is not the point. We were on a green and he had a 15 foot side hill putt. He missed the putt by an inch or so. He then tried two more times to make the putt, and missed narrowly each time. As he walked off the green he turned to me and said, "that putt is not makeable". The confidence in that statement made me realize why he plays so well. In his mind, he didn't miss the putt at all, it just wasn't a makeable putt.
[/quote]

[color=#333333][size=3][size=4]From Andrew Fogg's website/DVD:[/size][/size][/color]

[color=#333333][size=3][size=4]Jack Nicklaus is arguably the greatest living golfer and a good putter. However in his mind, he remembers that he is an even greater putter… I’m sure that you’ve heard the story of him telling an audience that he has never three putted the last hole of a tournament or missed from inside of three feet. As Jack opens the floor to take questions, a man puts up his hand and says to Nicklaus:[/size][/size][/color]

[color=#333333][size=3][size=4]“Jack you say you have never missed from inside of three feet on the last hole of a tournament, but I was watching you last month in a major tournament and that’s exactly what you did.” Jack looked at the man with those piercing blue eyes and repeated that he had never missed from inside of three feet on the last hole of a tournament. “But Mr Nicklaus”, the man insisted, “I saw it, I have it on film, I can send it to you if you like”. “No need”, Jack replied, “I have never missed from inside of three feet on the last hole of a tournament. Are there any more questions?”[/size][/size][/color]
[/quote]

The follow-up to that story is even better. According to Bob Rotella, a guy came up to him to tell him that story about Jack. Rotella asked the guy what his handicap was and the guy replied 16. Rotella says to him "so you think that Jack Nicklaus, the greatest golfer in history, should think like a 16 handicapper?" Rotella's point was that of course Nicklaus missed putts. He just chose not to remember them! We could all benefit from that. Unfortunately I can remember all of my important misses.

[Bobalu]

Sounds trite, but confidence is always dependent upon repeated success, and this is true with virtually any performance skill, at any age. The more putts you hole, the more you build confidence. Success breeds confidence in all things.

[Juan73]

Here is something you might find interesting. I wondered how much practice do I have to do to be good at putting and how much on-going practice do I need to maintain that level of competence.

While there is no real answer for the first question since we are all so different and start from different places. One of the putting guru's who work with guys on the PGA Tour that I know personally shared that tour players spend on average between 7-10 hours a week practicing putting in a focused manner.

[Free swingr]

Great putting is a state of mind. It's not stroke or mechanics. The common denominator of great putters is they all know they are great putters.