Hole in net inside of course

[RJRJRJ]

Pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but this came up the other day and I want confirmation.

 

There is a net that surrounds about half the green of a par 3 to prevent balls from flying into the adjacent hole and vice-versa.

 

Player tees off on the par 3 and it flies through a large hole in the bottom of the net, onto the other side, pretty much leaving the only possible shot as back through the hole, or impossibly high and over.

 

1. If the course allows relief from inside fences, what would the player's options be?

 

2. Is there anything in particular that would allow a player relief from this, if the course did not allow it locally?

 

3. If it was marked as GUR (it was not), what options would be available?

 

Thank you

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406330120' post='9786623']
Pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but this came up the other day and I want confirmation.

There is a net that surrounds about half the green of a par 3 to prevent balls from flying into the adjacent hole and vice-versa.

Player tees off on the par 3 and it flies through a large hole in the bottom of the net, onto the other side, pretty much leaving the only possible shot as back through the hole, or impossibly high and over.

1. If the course allows relief from inside fences, what would the player's options be?

2. Is there anything in particular that would allow a player relief from this, if the course did not allow it locally?

3. [b]If[/b] it was marked as GUR (it was not), what options would be available?

Thank you
[/quote]

1) if this is not a boundary fence, or otherwise declared an integral part of the course, you would get free relief but only relief from stance/stroke/lie -- not line of play. If the line of play is a problem, play around it or tale an unplayable lie relief option or try to shoot through the hole.

2) not unless this immovable obstruction is temporary, or if they declare it within a GUR area.

3) see 25-1b.

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1406331745' post='9786777']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406330120' post='9786623']
Pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but this came up the other day and I want confirmation.

There is a net that surrounds about half the green of a par 3 to prevent balls from flying into the adjacent hole and vice-versa.

Player tees off on the par 3 and it flies through a large hole in the bottom of the net, onto the other side, pretty much leaving the only possible shot as back through the hole, or impossibly high and over.

1. If the course allows relief from inside fences, what would the player's options be?

2. Is there anything in particular that would allow a player relief from this, if the course did not allow it locally?

3. [b]If[/b] it was marked as GUR (it was not), what options would be available?

Thank you
[/quote]

1) if this is not a boundary fence, or otherwise declared an integral part of the course, you would get free relief but only relief from stance/stroke/lie -- not line of play. If the line of play is a problem, play around it or tale an unplayable lie relief option or try to shoot through the hole.

2) not unless this immovable obstruction is temporary, or if they declare it within a GUR area.

3) see 25-1b.
[/quote]

Thanks, I think I got it. To clarify though, the relief for GUR would only be stance/stroke/lie as well, correct?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406331986' post='9786807']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1406331745' post='9786777']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406330120' post='9786623']
Pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but this came up the other day and I want confirmation.

There is a net that surrounds about half the green of a par 3 to prevent balls from flying into the adjacent hole and vice-versa.

Player tees off on the par 3 and it flies through a large hole in the bottom of the net, onto the other side, pretty much leaving the only possible shot as back through the hole, or impossibly high and over.

1. If the course allows relief from inside fences, what would the player's options be?

2. Is there anything in particular that would allow a player relief from this, if the course did not allow it locally?

3. [b]If[/b] it was marked as GUR (it was not), what options would be available?

Thank you
[/quote]

1) if this is not a boundary fence, or otherwise declared an integral part of the course, you would get free relief but only relief from stance/stroke/lie -- not line of play. If the line of play is a problem, play around it or tale an unplayable lie relief option or try to shoot through the hole.

2) not unless this immovable obstruction is temporary, or if they declare it within a GUR area.

3) see 25-1b.
[/quote]

Thanks, I think I got it. To clarify though, the relief for GUR would only be stance/stroke/lie as well, correct?
[/quote]

Yes, but to alleviate the line of play problem, the GUR area might be large enough to effectively allow for line of play relief.

[Augster]

If you could get them to declare it a Temporary Immovable Obstruction, you could also add line of sight relief to your list of relief options.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1406338283' post='9787431']
If you could get them to declare it a Temporary Immovable Obstruction, you could also add line of sight relief to your list of relief options.
[/quote]

7. Temporary Obstructions
When temporary obstructions are installed on or adjoining the course, the Committee should define the status of such obstructions as movable, immovable or temporary immovable obstructions.

a. Temporary Immovable Obstructions
If the Committee defines such obstructions as temporary immovable obstructions, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“I. Definition
A temporary immovable obstruction (TIO) is a non-permanent artificial object that is often erected in conjunction with a competition and is fixed or not readily movable.

Examples of TIOs include, but are not limited to, tents, scoreboards, grandstands, television towers and lavatories.

Supporting guy wires are part of the TIO, unless the Committee declares that they are to be treated as elevated power lines or cables.




It doesn't sound like the net is, in fact, temporary.

[Cancun]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406330120' post='9786623']
Pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but this came up the other day and I want confirmation.

There is a net that surrounds about half the green of a par 3 to prevent balls from flying into the adjacent hole and vice-versa.

Player tees off on the par 3 and it flies through a large hole in the bottom of the net, onto the other side, pretty much leaving the only possible shot as back through the hole, or impossibly high and over.

1. If the course allows relief from inside fences, what would the player's options be?

2. Is there anything in particular that would allow a player relief from this, if the course did not allow it locally?

3. [b]If[/b] it was marked as GUR (it was not), what options would be available?

Thank you
[/quote]

Hi RJ:

Such net would be, by definition, an obstruction.

The course doesn’t have to allow or grant relief form an obstruction, just remember that you don’t get relief for line of play (unless on the green).

1.- If the course grants relief, the local Rule would determine the authorized relief. It would depend on how they mark it.

2.- I guess that, if the course doesn’t do something locally, you have to endure it and find your way above, around, under or thru the net.

3.- Why would it be marked as GuR? If the ground is such that it should be marked as Gur, so be it. If it’s a TIO they should define it as such… I guess “it depends”. I recommend reading Appendix I, part b, number 8 of the Rules. Here’s something that might be a better option if you don’t find something more specific to your situation:

[quote]
[b] 8. Dropping Zones[/b]

If the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i] considers that it is not feasible or practicable to proceed in accordance with a Rule providing relief, it may establish dropping zones in which balls may or must be dropped when taking relief. Generally, such dropping zones should be provided as an additional relief option to those available under the Rule itself, rather than being mandatory.
[/quote]

I really hope this helps.

Good night!

[Cancun]

I don’t know how I forgot to say this:

An additional option is mending the net!!!

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Cancun' timestamp='1406339565' post='9787581']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406330120' post='9786623']
Pretty sure I know the answer to this one, but this came up the other day and I want confirmation.

There is a net that surrounds about half the green of a par 3 to prevent balls from flying into the adjacent hole and vice-versa.

Player tees off on the par 3 and it flies through a large hole in the bottom of the net, onto the other side, pretty much leaving the only possible shot as back through the hole, or impossibly high and over.

1. If the course allows relief from inside fences, what would the player's options be?

2. Is there anything in particular that would allow a player relief from this, if the course did not allow it locally?

3. [b]If[/b] it was marked as GUR (it was not), what options would be available?

Thank you
[/quote]

Hi RJ:

Such net would be, by definition, an obstruction.

The course doesn’t have to allow or grant relief form an obstruction, just remember that you don’t get relief for line of play (unless on the green).

1.- If the course grants relief, the local Rule would determine the authorized relief. It would depend on how they mark it.

2.- I guess that, if the course doesn’t do something locally, you have to endure it and find your way above, around, under or thru the net.

3.- Why would it be marked as GuR? If the ground is such that it should be marked as Gur, so be it. If it’s a TIO they should define it as such… I guess “it depends”. I recommend reading Appendix I, part b, number 8 of the Rules. Here’s something that might be a better option if you don’t find something more specific to your situation:

[quote]
[b] 8. Dropping Zones[/b]

If the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i] considers that it is not feasible or practicable to proceed in accordance with a Rule providing relief, it may establish dropping zones in which balls may or must be dropped when taking relief. Generally, such dropping zones should be provided as an additional relief option to those available under the Rule itself, rather than being mandatory.
[/quote]

I really hope this helps.

Good night!
[/quote]

Cancun, I believe the reason the course might make the entire area GUR is that it wants to and it would work. The definition states, in part:

“Ground under repair” is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative. All ground and any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing within the ground under repair are part of the ground under repair.

I don't believe your solution of a drop zone, without the addition of a large GUR area, would work because if you only had line of sight interference, you wouldn't have the option to use the drop zone. What would you be taking a drop from? It would only work if you were close to the net in which case you could touch it, which doesn't seem to be the whole problem here.

Edit to add:

25-1b/3
Improving Line of Play When Taking Relief from Abnormal Ground Condition

Q.In certain circumstances, in complying with Rule 25-1b, it is possible for a player incidentally to improve his line of play, e.g., avoid playing over a bunker or a tree. Is this permissible?

A.Yes. If a player's ball is in one of the conditions covered by Rule 25 and if, in taking relief in accordance with the procedure laid down in Rule 25-1b, his line of play is improved, this is his good fortune.

[RJRJRJ]

Thanks, guys. Pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. I won't bother telling you how it was handled because I dont want anybody to have a heart attack, but I made it clear that I thought they were wrong.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406346984' post='9788309']
Thanks, guys. Pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. I won't bother telling you how it was handled because I dont want anybody to have a heart attack, but I made it clear that I thought they were wrong.
[/quote]

Good for you for trying.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406346984' post='9788309']
Thanks, guys. Pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. I won't bother telling you how it was handled because I dont want anybody to have a heart attack, but I made it clear that I thought they were wrong.
[/quote]

RJx3, you must spill the beans!

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1406348296' post='9788411']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406346984' post='9788309']
Thanks, guys. Pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. I won't bother telling you how it was handled because I dont want anybody to have a heart attack, but I made it clear that I thought they were wrong.
[/quote]

RJx3, you must spill the beans!
[/quote]

He put it back on the other side of the net and got up and down for a par lol. My other friend also agreed that this was the proper protocol. I ended up winning the round anyway, but I made it very clear that they had no clue what they were doing. Both claimed that it would never have happened if the course had been kept up properly. Neither had an answer for what would happen if you were to land in bare hard dirt in the fairway, but I just gave up anyway. The following half dozen holes were pretty quiet.

[Augster]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406349789' post='9788471']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1406348296' post='9788411']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406346984' post='9788309']
Thanks, guys. Pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. I won't bother telling you how it was handled because I dont want anybody to have a heart attack, but I made it clear that I thought they were wrong.
[/quote]

RJx3, you must spill the beans!
[/quote]

He put it back on the other side of the net and got up and down for a par lol. My other friend also agreed that this was the proper protocol. I ended up winning the round anyway, but I made it very clear that they had no clue what they were doing. Both claimed that it would never have happened if the course had been kept up properly. Neither had an answer for what would happen if you were to land in bare hard dirt in the fairway, but I just gave up anyway. The following half dozen holes were pretty quiet.
[/quote]

Wow.

So the drop was well closer to the hole without it being a drop area. Ouch. I'm glad you ended up winning despite this.

I know this is a permanent structure, but I'm quite certain I read on this forum that when the PGA tour plays an event at a course with those greenside fans, which are set in cement and aren't exactly temporary or movable, the Tour makes them TIO's for the week. Maybe I'm misremembering, but the idea of those fans being TIO's was so preposterous it's stuck in my head.

This fence, which is supposed to be permanent and is moored in cement I imagine, could be defined the same way.

[Newby]

Try this

[b] 33-8/18[/b]

[b] Local Rule Providing Line-of-Sight Relief from Protective Fence Near Line of Play[/b]
[color=#000000][size=3]
If a wire fence is erected to protect players on the tee of one hole from errant shots played at another hole, and it is relatively close to the line of play of the other hole, it would be permissible to make a Local Rule allowing a player whose ball is in such a position that the fence intervenes on his line of play to drop the ball, without penalty, not nearer the hole in a specified dropping zone.[/size][/color]

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1406363298' post='9788937']
Try this

[b] 33-8/18[/b]

[b] Local Rule Providing Line-of-Sight Relief from Protective Fence Near Line of Play[/b]
[color=#000000][size=3]
If a wire fence is erected to protect players on the tee of one hole from errant shots played at another hole, and it is relatively close to the line of play of the other hole, it would be permissible to make a Local Rule allowing a player whose ball is in such a position that the fence intervenes on his line of play to drop the ball, without penalty, not nearer the hole in a specified dropping zone.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

That fits! Put it in a bag, I'm taking it home.

(And apologies to Cancun for my failing to see how his drop zone could work.)

[Colin L]

33-8/18, as pointed out by Newby is indeed be the answer for a protective fence - as I well know having had to write up the Local Rule for a protective fence at my own club. For information, the R&A would only allow a drop zone (as referred to in the Decision), turning down my request for approval of a drop zone [i]and[/i] nearest point of relief from the intervention on line of play.

But a protective fence with a hole in it isn't being very protective and such a local rule is obviously not the answer considering it would be redundant the moment the hole was repaired.

I can't picture the set-up clearly enough, but you would need to beware of providing relief for a ball that flies over the top of the fence - if that can happen and if that was being considered. The Decision is about a fence [i]relatively close[/i] to the line of play of the hole being played and it could be that this fence if to the side of or behind the green is not.

[Cancun]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1406375944' post='9789245']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1406363298' post='9788937']
Try this

[b] 33-8/18[/b]

[b] Local Rule Providing Line-of-Sight Relief from Protective Fence Near Line of Play[/b]

[color=#000000][size=3]If a wire fence is erected to protect players on the tee of one hole from errant shots played at another hole, and it is relatively close to the line of play of the other hole, it would be permissible to make a Local Rule allowing a player whose ball is in such a position that the fence intervenes on his line of play to drop the ball, without penalty, not nearer the hole in a specified dropping zone.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

That fits! Put it in a bag, I'm taking it home.

(And apologies to Cancun for my failing to see how his drop zone could work.)
[/quote]


Come on Sawgrass: there’s no need to apologize, at all. Maybe I had the concept you were looking for, but I didn’t sell it properly… while Newby presented it in a more convincing way. He’s clearly a better salesman than I am, since I liked his answer better than mine too .

RJ I’m glad you won, despite the fact that they dropped basically where they wanted.Now: I kind of said it as a joke but it would really be good to have the net repaired, mended (or whatever the correct word might be). You told us that the ball went through a large hole in the net, and that should be fixed. Maybe they won’t need the dropping area if they do.

Good day gentlemen!

[bladehunter]

why doesn't the course stipulate that it can be at least replayed from the Tee free of penalty ...It should say it on the local rules sheet...My course has a huge high voltage line that crosses one fairway..if you hit it you are supposed to get a free replay of that shot.... Ive hit it once with a PW going into the green...Its very high and a one in amillio shot of hitting a cable that small but it happens...I replaced the ball and hit it again no problem..I would think you could replay from the Tee if they included this on the local sheet..no?

[Newby]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1406570313' post='9802451']
why doesn't the course stipulate that it can be at least replayed from the Tee free of penalty .
[/quote]

Because the USGA/R&A have not approved it as an authorised Local Rule

[LeoLeo99]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406349789' post='9788471']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1406348296' post='9788411']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406346984' post='9788309']
Thanks, guys. Pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. I won't bother telling you how it was handled because I dont want anybody to have a heart attack, but I made it clear that I thought they were wrong.
[/quote]

RJx3, you must spill the beans!
[/quote]

He put it back on the other side of the net and got up and down for a par lol. My other friend also agreed that this was the proper protocol. I ended up winning the round anyway, but I made it very clear that they had no clue what they were doing. Both claimed that it would never have happened if the course had been kept up properly. Neither had an answer for what would happen if you were to land in bare hard dirt in the fairway, but I just gave up anyway. The following half dozen holes were pretty quiet.
[/quote]


That's how the group I play with would have played it; same as your group. The net should have caught the ball. You shouldn't be penalized for poor course upkeep. Not only did the net not stop the ball, the net is now acting as a barrier to the green. That's just not fair.

Bare hard dirt in the fairway is GUR. Someone get a paint can and mark it such. I've played a wide range of courses and only ever see GUR properly marked when there's a tournament. For regular rounds, you're on your own to define GUR when the Committee or authorized representative are not doing their job.

[bladehunter]

[quote name='LeoLeo99' timestamp='1406587603' post='9804561']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406349789' post='9788471']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1406348296' post='9788411']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1406346984' post='9788309']
Thanks, guys. Pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. I won't bother telling you how it was handled because I dont want anybody to have a heart attack, but I made it clear that I thought they were wrong.
[/quote]

RJx3, you must spill the beans!
[/quote]

He put it back on the other side of the net and got up and down for a par lol. My other friend also agreed that this was the proper protocol. I ended up winning the round anyway, but I made it very clear that they had no clue what they were doing. Both claimed that it would never have happened if the course had been kept up properly. Neither had an answer for what would happen if you were to land in bare hard dirt in the fairway, but I just gave up anyway. The following half dozen holes were pretty quiet.
[/quote]


That's how the group I play with would have played it; same as your group. The net should have caught the ball. You shouldn't be penalized for poor course upkeep. Not only did the net not stop the ball, the net is now acting as a barrier to the green. That's just not fair.

Bare hard dirt in the fairway is GUR. Someone get a paint can and mark it such. I've played a wide range of courses and only ever see GUR properly marked when there's a tournament. For regular rounds, you're on your own to define GUR when the Committee or authorized representative are not doing their job.
[/quote]

absolutely agree... I am a stickler albeit newbie to the rules..but ridiculous is ridiculous .... obvious GUR is played as such...no course marks it unless a tournament is approaching.. this net would be GUR for me..period