IMO why the US loses in the Ryder

[Zach Heusser]

The Nationwide tour is flawed

I have an idea why the US gets killed in the Ryder Cup. We are not developing our young players. The Nationwide tour is supposed to be a developmental tour, but I think it is a second chance tour. I was looking at this weeks field, and it was shocking to me. There are very few young or up and coming players. I think it is time for the PGA Tour to change it's Nationwide Tour policy, and not let past champions, and career money list leaders have a lifetime exemption on that tour.
Here are some of the players in this weeks field
Guy Boros Jeff Brehaut Danny Briggs Tom Byrum Micheal Clark John Cook Jay Delsing Scott Dunlap Jim McGovern Len Mattiace Greg Craft Skip Kendal Steve JOnes Steve Pate Estebon Toledo ALt list for this week Gabe Hjerstead Garret Willis Gary Hallberg Tom Scherrer Willie Wood Scott Gump Joel Edwards Mark Brooks.
I think that tour would serve itself well by having 40 spots in the Monday Qualifing instead of giving these guys a spot every week. What do you guys think??
ZACH

[dtwainright]

That's a pretty good point. To me the reason we suck is because we just don't care. Our hearts are not in it like the European's...we ought to not let the top players in the world be on the Ryder Cup. Give the guys who don't have 30 or 50 tour wins a chance to play their heart out for a victory.

[hammer190290]

I dont think it is a lack of effort that is causing failure in the US camp at the Ryder Cup it is the individualist attitude adopted by the top american players. I will admit that this attitude is what makes the US players superior on the individual stage which is great but it is not so effective for the Ryder Cup. If I was an American I would be proud of my top players if they win or lose the Ryder Cup because they are more dominant onthe individual stage, majors etc. Americans should not worry about Ryder Cup performances as they are the best golfing nation outside that tournament. As a European I am proud of our top players because they will always play as a team and has proved very effective at the Ryder Cup.

 

Its just a case of finding the positives and not the negatives in your top players.

[Jim_0068]

develop, shemelop!

 

If they were good enough they would take their spots, hate to say it but that's how it is.

[WanderDukeCubs]

200 Wins on Tour by Hogan/Nike/Buy.com/Nationwide tour grads

 

 

They aren't all re-treads

[jzatl04]

One nation of 300,000,000 vs. one continent of 700,000,000. The continent of 700,000,000 has realized that together they should be able to comprise a better 12-man team than a country less than half their size, and they've put that realization into action. They're simply not intimidated by the U.S. anymore and play no fear, aggressive match play golf. The Americans don't necessarily play badly in every match, they just approach it like a stroke play tournament, whereas a more successful strategy would be to go for broke more frequently in match play than you would in stroke play. In match play you don't have to worry about "stopping the bleeding" if you hit a bad shot. You just lose a hole and go on to the next. Watching the Ryder Cup, it seems the U.S. players have not realized this. The Euros fire at pins, chip and putt the ball past the cup, and in general go for broke more often. And they've trounced us. Twice.

[sergizmo]

One nation of 300,000,000 vs. one continent of 700,000,000. The continent of 700,000,000 has realized that together they should be able to comprise a better 12-man team than a country less than half their size, and they've put that realization into action. They're simply not intimidated by the U.S. anymore and play no fear, aggressive match play golf. The Americans don't necessarily play badly in every match, they just approach it like a stroke play tournament, whereas a more successful strategy would be to go for broke more frequently in match play than you would in stroke play. In match play you don't have to worry about "stopping the bleeding" if you hit a bad shot. You just lose a hole and go on to the next. Watching the Ryder Cup, it seems the U.S. players have not realized this. The Euros fire at pins, chip and putt the ball past the cup, and in general go for broke more often. And they've trounced us. Twice.

 

That 700,000,000 number is a little misleading. How many people play golf in Poland, Romania, Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general? Virtually none.

 

Golf is popular everywhere in the States.

[ghodges]

One nation of 300,000,000 vs. one continent of 700,000,000. The continent of 700,000,000 has realized that together they should be able to comprise a better 12-man team than a country less than half their size, and they've put that realization into action. They're simply not intimidated by the U.S. anymore and play no fear, aggressive match play golf. The Americans don't necessarily play badly in every match, they just approach it like a stroke play tournament, whereas a more successful strategy would be to go for broke more frequently in match play than you would in stroke play. In match play you don't have to worry about "stopping the bleeding" if you hit a bad shot. You just lose a hole and go on to the next. Watching the Ryder Cup, it seems the U.S. players have not realized this. The Euros fire at pins, chip and putt the ball past the cup, and in general go for broke more often. And they've trounced us. Twice.

 

That 700,000,000 number is a little misleading. How many people play golf in Poland, Romania, Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general? Virtually none.

 

Golf is popular everywhere in the States.

 

Trust me...there are a whole LOT of people in the states that don't care for golf much less play it. A lot of US kids play football, basketball, baseball, etc. Thx to Mr. Woods golf has started to become cool/popular with more and more kids. I see it big time in my area. There has been quite a change. Golf will certainly never compete with the "major" sports in the states, but the difference from a decade ago is very noticable. Just wait a few years... ;)

[leeux]

In a recent article in Golf Digest, Haney said that college golf was the reason for the relatively poor showing and development of young US players. Most of the international stars (Garica, Ogilvy, Scott etc) started as pros at a very young age and somehow I think you need the young guns to be victorious in the Ryder Cup because the blend of experience (Monty, Clarke, Westwood) and younger blood (Donald, Garcia etc) is what is the key of team chemistry.

 

If you take Tiger out of the picture, almost all marketable super stars are not American anymore. Tiger's impact on international golf I think was bigger than on US golf. The US always had the most players of all countries but Tiger's appeal made golf hip in Thailand and other places where it used to be only a game for the rich.

 

Many times European Ryder Cuppers were asked for the secret of their success, I think they just have more fun, do not put that much pressure on the team (sure it is easier to be giddy when you trounce the Americans like the last two times but even in defeat they seem to have more fun).

 

Euros have a party, the American Ryder Cuppers seem to be burdened by the weight of national expectation. Let's not forget that the US still has a considerable edge in Ryder Cup wins in total, it's just, if the current trend continues (not enough elite young players), the Ryder Cup will eventually loose a lot of its charme because it will be lame to see Europe win all the time (like the Americans won it in the 60s, 70s and 80s).

[690MB]

One nation of 300,000,000 vs. one continent of 700,000,000. The continent of 700,000,000 has realized that together they should be able to comprise a better 12-man team than a country less than half their size, and they've put that realization into action. They're simply not intimidated by the U.S. anymore and play no fear, aggressive match play golf. The Americans don't necessarily play badly in every match, they just approach it like a stroke play tournament, whereas a more successful strategy would be to go for broke more frequently in match play than you would in stroke play. In match play you don't have to worry about "stopping the bleeding" if you hit a bad shot. You just lose a hole and go on to the next. Watching the Ryder Cup, it seems the U.S. players have not realized this. The Euros fire at pins, chip and putt the ball past the cup, and in general go for broke more often. And they've trounced us. Twice.

 

That 700,000,000 number is a little misleading. How many people play golf in Poland, Romania, Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general? Virtually none.

 

Golf is popular everywhere in the States.

 

Trust me...there are a whole LOT of people in the states that don't care for golf much less play it. A lot of US kids play football, basketball, baseball, etc. Thx to Mr. Woods golf has started to become cool/popular with more and more kids. I see it big time in my area. There has been quite a change. Golf will certainly never compete with the "major" sports in the states, but the difference from a decade ago is very noticable. Just wait a few years... ;)

 

Google Answers :

 

Hello.

 

Worldwide, are an estimated 50 to 61 million golfers. In the United

States, there are an estimated 26 to 37 million golfers.

 

 

"According to Sports Marketing Surveys, there are 61.1 million golfers

worldwide; 6.9 million in Europe, 13.6 million in Asia, 1.7 million in

Australasia, 1 million in South America and 500 000 in South Africa.

There are 37.1 million in the US alone."

source: Business Report, 9/28/2003

 

_________

 

As far as numbers go Aussies and South Africans are in a league of their own.

[villa]

I agree with the above post apart from one comment. If the Ryder Cup wasn't lame when the U.S were winning it consistently for three decades then why would it become lame if Europe have a long spell of winning it?

 

One of the big things that summed up the Ryder Cup for me was when the captains introduced their teams. Ian Woosnam introduced the Europeans in alphabetical order (Paul Casey first, Lee Westwood last). Tom Lehman introduced the Americans in world ranking order (Tiger first, I think Brett Wetterich last). In my opinion that's not how a team works. Everybody is even and that's how all the Europeans were treated.

 

 

P.S On the point of the 700 million (Europe) versus 300 million (U.S) figure. More people play golf in the U.S than the whole of Europe.

[Polymer]

One nation of 300,000,000 vs. one continent of 700,000,000. The continent of 700,000,000 has realized that together they should be able to comprise a better 12-man team than a country less than half their size, and they've put that realization into action. They're simply not intimidated by the U.S. anymore and play no fear, aggressive match play golf. The Americans don't necessarily play badly in every match, they just approach it like a stroke play tournament, whereas a more successful strategy would be to go for broke more frequently in match play than you would in stroke play. In match play you don't have to worry about "stopping the bleeding" if you hit a bad shot. You just lose a hole and go on to the next. Watching the Ryder Cup, it seems the U.S. players have not realized this. The Euros fire at pins, chip and putt the ball past the cup, and in general go for broke more often. And they've trounced us. Twice.

 

 

I agree w/ the approach portion. I don't know if this is really true but it just seems like the Euros are much more used to being aggressive. Especially in better ball, I'm not sure if the US Squad likes firing at pins and the other person playing it safe in case it didn't work out. Or maybe it's just the Euro style to play more aggressive and get more birdies (and more bogeys). In any case, the Euro squad is very strong player wise. Not to hash up some other worthless argument but that does NOT mean the European Tour is stronger..it obviously is not....I would even argue the better Euros play on the PGA tour primarily and play on the Euro tour strictly to be eligible for Ryder Cup (and that's been stated as well). In any case, right now I feel singles is a toss up...Alternate shot is hard to say but I think the Euros have an advantage..and Better ball they definitely have an advantage...they just approach it better.

[Cal]

The Ryder cup is not about statistics of who has how many players or how many of the world rankings you have.

 

It is a competition between two very close teams.

 

It is about strategy, teamwork and pride.

 

The Europeans have a fourball strategy which is a secret but it obviously works....

They build on that secret by all sharing in that secret and believing in the team.

They build on that team by having pride... because they know history is being changed every time they play and win and that they are the keepers of the secret, the teamwork and the pride.

 

It is a circular thing... until the Americans find it again.... the Europeans will keep winning. Only the team that believes more will win.

[Golfchicago]

I dont think it is a lack of effort that is causing failure in the US camp at the Ryder Cup it is the individualist attitude adopted by the top american players. I will admit that this attitude is what makes the US players superior on the individual stage which is great but it is not so effective for the Ryder Cup. If I was an American I would be proud of my top players if they win or lose the Ryder Cup because they are more dominant onthe individual stage, majors etc. Americans should not worry about Ryder Cup performances as they are the best golfing nation outside that tournament. As a European I am proud of our top players because they will always play as a team and has proved very effective at the Ryder Cup.

 

Its just a case of finding the positives and not the negatives in your top players.

 

 

Hammer, what do you mean specifically when you say our top players have an individualist attitude and how does that behavior translate into a loss for the U.S.?

There is no doubt that the Euros have gotten better over the years and quite frankly we are the underdogs at this time. Let's face it, we have dominanted for years and now you have better match play players and are starting to dominate. I don't know if hanging out as a group more is going to make us better match play players. One thing is for sure I don't question the player's hearts or will to win on either side. I just think at this time the Euros are better at match play.

[Hifade]

One other thing to remember when you look at the US collegiate program is that a large number of Europeans attend US colleges and "develop" within the US collegiate ranks. After turning pro, because they are European, they obviously play for the European team. Case in point.....Luke Donald and Paul Casey are the first two that come to mind.

 

One could argue that the US collegiate program is as good of a training ground as any "developmental tour."

[villa]

One other thing to remember when you look at the US collegiate program is that a large number of Europeans attend US colleges and "develop" within the US collegiate ranks. After turning pro, because they are European, they obviously play for the European team. Case in point.....Luke Donald and Paul Casey are the first two that come to mind.

 

One could argue that the US collegiate program is as good of a training ground as any "developmental tour."

 

You always speak sense Hifade.

 

The collegiate programme is still deemed as the best place place to develop for young European (especially British) golfers. The coaching is (arguably) better, and in most cases golf can be played all year round. On that basis there's no reason why Europe should have better young talent than the U.S.

 

On a side note, golf is still an elitist sport in the U.K. So who knows how many more stars there could be if access was available.

[801]

The one and only reason that the US lost (and has lost) the Ryder Cup is quite simple. The European team took less strokes to finish than we did. Now you can ask why or how that happened, and again, there can only be one possible reason- they are better golfers. period. It has nothing to do with team, pride, effort, money, etc. Europeans are better golfers, better shot makers, don't succomb to pressure as much, and therefore take fewer total strokes. What does that equal - European victory.

[italian71]

This weeks Nationwide event is somewhat misleading. Because the field is limited at Doral, guys don't have a place to play. This has happened to me during events opposite Majors. It definetly hurts the younger guys but the older guys have priority over the conditional ones.

[ajk278s]

I don't believe the Euros are better golfers. Their just better when it comes to team match play. Out of everyone, the Europeans are stats wise the worst when it comes to winning on the PGA Tour and within the few years the majors.

 

The problem is that stroke play has become a way of life in the U.S. when the Euros still play a lot of match play (I'm talk individually, not in tournaments).

 

Why is that the Presidents Cup seems to be more evenly matched? The International Team has much better players than the Euros.

[villa]

I don't believe the Euros are better golfers. Their just better when it comes to team match play. Out of everyone, the Europeans are stats wise the worst when it comes to winning on the PGA Tour and within the few years the majors.

 

The problem is that stroke play has become a way of life in the U.S. when the Euros still play a lot of match play (I'm talk individually, not in tournaments).

 

Why is that the Presidents Cup seems to be more evenly matched? The International Team has much better players than the Euros.

 

I also don't believe that Europeans are better golfers (and i'm one of them) but we don't play any more matchplay than anyone else.

[upndown1]

My 2 cents:

 

American golf is becoming nothing but vertical golf. Shot shaping is of less importance than it use to be - Just watch a tournament at Harbour town - ANYONE can win that one short or long #1 or #150. It requires more shot shaping but in the long courses with less OLD GROWTH trees, the shorter guys are at a disadvantage - until recently, the courses opened up at 290 and were narrower at 270. US Opens require less vertical and more shot shaping and you see some much different results.

 

European golf plays with the wind and in less than pristine conditions. All of those guys seem to be able to work the ball. They seem to play more controlled and take what they get. They also seem to be less Results oriented and more flexible.

 

If Tiger played in the Ryder Cup like he did in the British, I don't think his Ryder cup record would be what it is.

 

When I watch our team perform, they seem to concerned with way to much technically instead of just winning the hole. Call it a heroic shot or whatever, the Euros seem to thrive on making a heroic shot where we seem content to put it in the right place and on the right side etc.

 

Match play isn't about hole play. It is a whole different animal. It is a playoff on every hole essentially. I know that is an exageration but at their level, one hole behind is hard to make up and when you try to sometimes you end up 2 behind.

 

I like the way diMarco plays - He plays to win the hole. He plays with a chip on his shoulder. I think the Euros play with chips on their shoulders too. They have heard how much better the US is for a long time and have something to prove. Most US players play in the Ryder Cup like they have nothing to prove to anyone IMO. I think they do, especially after all the losses.

[DavidR]

The one and only reason that the US lost (and has lost) the Ryder Cup is quite simple. The European team took less strokes to finish than we did. Now you can ask why or how that happened, and again, there can only be one possible reason- they are better golfers. period. It has nothing to do with team, pride, effort, money, etc. Europeans are better golfers, better shot makers, don't succomb to pressure as much, and therefore take fewer total strokes. What does that equal - European victory.

 

 

WOW...I think this is a pretty bold statement. Take a look at the tournaments so far this year. Take the top ten and see where the Americans stand. I think they do a pretty good job of holding there own.

[jzatl04]

P.S On the point of the 700 million (Europe) versus 300 million (U.S) figure. More people play golf in the U.S than the whole of Europe.

 

The point I was trying to make is that it used to seem, in regards to the Ryder Cup, that since the U.S. dominated it was because we are this huge powerhouse and are bigger than all the individual nations in Europe. With such a huge population, Europe definitely has the financial means for top-notch facilities, junior programs, etc. It really doesn't matter the total number of golfers from the U.S. or Europe, we're talking about the top 12 professionals from each. I don't know what changed physically, but mentally it seems the Europeans don't fear the Americans anymore (fear in the competitive sense, obviously). They come to play and, 3 of the last 4 times, they've won.

[jzatl04]

Europeans are better golfers, better shot makers, don't succomb to pressure as much, and therefore take fewer total strokes.

 

This is absolutely true... regarding match play 1 out of every 104 weeks. Combine the teams members from both sides in 2004 and 2006, the years Europe won 18.5-9.5:

 

U.S. Team = 18 major championship victories.

European Team = 2 major championship victories.

 

Take Tiger out of the equation and the Americans still have three times as many majors as the Europeans. How come the Americans are better golfers, better shot makers, don't succumb to pressure as much, and therefore take fewer strokes in stroke play tournaments, especially the majors? Because there's a fundamental difference between match play and stroke play.

[hammer190290]

It really doesn't matter the total number of golfers from the U.S. or Europe, we're talking about the top 12 professionals from each. I don't know what changed physically, but mentally it seems the Europeans don't fear the Americans anymore (fear in the competitive sense, obviously). They come to play and, 3 of the last 4 times, they've won.

 

Yes, but it is a proven fact that the more players you have at all levels the better your best players will be.

Its like a pyramid the bigger the base, the higher the peak.

 

It would not be fair to say that America has better players because this is untrue. they just have different specialities. Europeans are better matchplay players and Americans are better at strokeplay. Its as simple as that.

 

Its the same as parkland and links. if you take two scratch golfers to play on a links one may be superior but then when taken to parkland the other player may be succesfull.

 

Its all about having different styles of playing, not overall skill.

[samm980]

I love how every armchair golfer expert has an opinion on why the U.S. doesn't win The Ryder Cup. It's actually very simple and is golf related, the U.S. doesn't win because when the pressure is on they have not made putts. End of story.

[Extreme Firepower]

Outside Phil and Tiger US players just don't have bottle.

 

The PGA tour rewards players who win one biggie style tournament, a major

and it's exemptions. There's no real requirement for your journeymen to

get out of their comfort zone

 

The Euro Tour, even one or two good seasons can see pros hit skid row and they

need to get back on top to keep paying the bills.

 

You just need to look at past Ryder Cups and some of the Euro boys just pop

out of nowhere play the game of their life, become the stuff of legend whereas

the US lesser players deliver what you expect (ahem, even Davis Love)

 

Also, they don't have the full bag of shots, too much target golf as a result of

playing in sunny clims. When the pressure is on they miss fairways, are in bushes

and they can't produce the goods.

 

The comment about the n/wide is true... it's money and making a living... some

already know they can't cut it on the fulll blown tour but sadly there's no way of

clearing the decks to let the good young talent come through.

 

The challenge tour in europe is catching up... as money increases you can already

see mediocre chuggers just plodding along pciking up a couple of thousand euros

here and there.

[hmx3]

The europians are the better team-more friendship between the players and they are all warriors-they battle for the victory. IMO the only warriors

in US-team are Tiger and esp. DiMarco!!!

[Noonan]

Why is this in the tour equip. forum?

[hammer190290]

Hammer, what do you mean specifically when you say our top players have an individualist attitude and how does that behavior translate into a loss for the U.S.?

There is no doubt that the Euros have gotten better over the years and quite frankly we are the underdogs at this time. Let's face it, we have dominanted for years and now you have better match play players and are starting to dominate. I don't know if hanging out as a group more is going to make us better match play players. One thing is for sure I don't question the player's hearts or will to win on either side. I just think at this time the Euros are better at match play.

 

What i mean by individualist attitude is that they are very single minded and they do not have as a good a perception of the importance of each shot, hole, match etc than Europeans at the Ryder Cup.

 

This culture adopted by the American players is by no means a bad one it is simply not effective in the Ryder Cup, which to be honest is not a huge loss for the country as a whole because they produce better results on the individual stage.

 

I dont think hanging out as a group more will make the team better at matchplay golf and it will certainly not make them less single minded. However, it may help for the players to practice playing matchplay with each other more often in friendlys leading up to the Ryder Cup. This will help the Captain anticipate pairings more easily as past Captains have had difficulty when it comes to pairings. I think the main benefit of playing more team matchplay together is that they will understand the situation better and when it comes to the Ryder Cup they will relax more and enjoy themselves and they will not think of the round as a regular strokeplay round and more like a team game.

 

I think the will to win on each side is equal, it is just that europeans seem to fit the Ryder Cup format better than Americans currently and Americans are becoming more dominant in the strokeplay format.

 

However 5 years down the line this could all change!