Tour Pros vs. "Scratch" Players

[TRoc9892]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1410405974' post='10099309']
[quote name='TRoc9892' timestamp='1410395155' post='10098267']
This 20 foot circle is still assuming you still hit the green, correct? Because missing the green 6 feet from the pin is usually not something to shoot for.
[/quote]Good evening TRoc, I hope all's well

I am by no means posting this to be contradictory however I know that for me, and based on your cap I'm sure that you have seen this, and what I am speaking if is there have many occasions where I have played the shot leaving myself the "out" of exactly this, 6-10' off of the green below or pin high versus landing on the upper tier coming back down with a 20'er.
[/quote]
Great point. And you're absolutely right. When I said miss the green I was more thinking of into rough or water, rather than run off areas or easy greenside bunkers, where getting up and down for par is a preferred outcome. I should've thought that one through more.

[jmvargas]

...superb thread and excellent read for me as it reminded me of the time about 25 years ago when i was
in my 40s(am 68 now)with a 5 hdcp and playing regularly with an Asian and Japan Tour pro(when he was in town) who was 15 years my junior(and a good friend) and is now a leading player in the European Senior Tour..

he was at least 20 yds longer with the driver(250+ yds vs 270+) than me and 1 to 2 clubs longer with the irons but he was still at least 25 yds behind the longer hitting foreign and local pros at the time--he is Canadian.

depending on our previous results he was giving me a low of 3 a side up to the maximum i recall of 7 a side when i had several consecutive losses..was finally able to beat him with 14 strokes!!

all observations of the OP are spot-on..it was all about consistency and quality of their normal shots---and an excellent short game.

at 68 i have lost least 20 yds on my drives and like the OP my longest iron is now an 8-iron in my normal gamer set although i also have the 6 and 7-iron of my forged iron set but prefer my fairway woods and hybrids nowadays specially my 32* 7-hybrid which is my 140-yd club..

i am still a single hdp(8) from the whites(little less than 6000 yds)but a 14 hdcp from the blues at 6500 yds....never play from the tips(7000+ yds) nowadays..

PS:..in our numerous rounds together i believe his low was a 65(several times) with a 30(-6) on the back nine(at least twice) and a high of 77 once on a really difficult championship course when he really played poorly and he even told me that day was the best chance i would have of ever beating him even---i lost by 1 playing really well----his usual bad round was normally a 72 or 73..

he won our national open on the same course about 10 years after that round..

[eightiron]

^^^ sounds like Rick Gibson

[jmvargas]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1410409411' post='10099479']
^^^ sounds like Rick Gibson
[/quote]

...yup!!

[borker]

That was a fun read. Thanks for that! Put's in perspective how small differences in being just a bit better in all facets actually add up to the lower score. Especially in ability this close yet still a tier appart.

I just wonder how it would read if say a top-5 player in world showed up and played with you two. Where would they find their additional scoring? How far apart would they stand out from the Champion's Player (is it all length?)

[Ezgolfer]

Good thread !!

[spider]

What strikes me about Obee's notes on the round is that he knew how many feet each putt was. Obee and all how are you measuring this? Pacing it off just guessing or other? Do you do this each round or special case just for this occasion. I can recall my whole round but not the length of most putts accurately. Perhaps this is an issue and I need to pay closer attention. Heck most times I don't like to add up my score til the end.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='spider' timestamp='1410460008' post='10102471']
What strikes me about Obee's notes on the round is that he knew how many feet each putt was. Obee and all how are you measuring this? Pacing it off just guessing or other? Do you do this each round or special case just for this occasion. I can recall my whole round but not the length of most putts accurately. Perhaps this is an issue and I need to pay closer attention. Heck most times I don't like to add up my score til the end.
[/quote]

I am not answering for Obee. The better a golfer gets, the more guesstimating distances around the green becomes natural. If I think back to my last round, I can detail each shot, chip and putt, including distances for me and my buddy. And, i I think hard enough, the yardages of the guy that played with us.

[cardoustie]

Obee,

I had the same experience playing with a top PGA tour guy a handful of years back

More recently I played with the top Mid-Am in Canada for a practice round for the upcoming CDN Mid-Am. (+3 cap for him) This guy hits lasers with his irons and his driver. I think he shot 1 under, with two birdies and a bogey. He hit 16 greens and didn't make a putt

His proximity to the hole was mind blowing. Always inside 25 feet, even with 7 irons. He is not longer than me but never hit a drive into a hazard or anything really crooked at all. No thin irons or fat irons either. Just solid strikes that drew a little or faded a little. He was glaringly better than me with his fairway wood

There are two guys playing that I hear are a good 60 -70 yards longer than us .. can't wait to check that out. Being late forties vs mid twenties hurts in more way than one

[spider]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1410462677' post='10102747']
[quote name='spider' timestamp='1410460008' post='10102471']
What strikes me about Obee's notes on the round is that he knew how many feet each putt was. Obee and all how are you measuring this? Pacing it off just guessing or other? Do you do this each round or special case just for this occasion. I can recall my whole round but not the length of most putts accurately. Perhaps this is an issue and I need to pay closer attention. Heck most times I don't like to add up my score til the end.
[/quote]

I am not answering for Obee. The better a golfer gets, the more guesstimating distances around the green becomes natural. If I think back to my last round, I can detail each shot, chip and putt, including distances for me and my buddy. And, i I think hard enough, the yardages of the guy that played with us.
[/quote]

Yeah I get that. I also remember all my shots and my partners during rounds. Even when they are hacking it up. They are always surprised how I recall and I think "better" players are able to recall these for some reason. The exactness of 6 or 7ft distance for putts I don't think I would have. Maybe 20 -25 but not as exact as Obee did. I get pretty exact yardages on my pitches just usually play feel for putt distance.

[jim rockford]

OP, great stuff and thank you very much.....

I am very interested in the hierarchy of getting better and this makes sense.

I'm sure a top pro can scramble around and shoot an impressive score, but really to shoot really good scores and win I think you are looking at really high GIR (or magic circle as it were)........

I recently played with a +4 or so. don't think I'd ever played with anyone near that good. anyway, this guy was just all over the flag from about 185 and in. it seemed like every single shot ended up inside the 20 feet you mention. a lot of the shots were even closer (should add I think the guy plays at the course every single day)

wasn't that impressed with the guy's scrambling. certainly was very good but I thought an elite golfer would be better. but it really goes to show that when he put it 5 yards over a green from 240 yards that it was very very tricky shot for him getting it close from there. maybe even at that level the name of the game is the magic circle.

anyway, again OP thank you. had never heard that expression before.... yesterday when I played I really concentrated on GIR's which meant usually taking more club than I usually do. it was encouraging that my GIR went up but unfortunately my 3 putts went up too .... so now improve putting and improve my GIR shots.

[Cfd74]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1410110371' post='10079679']
In IsaacBM's "tournament versus recreation golf" thread, Ron Stelton mentioned the "magic circle," which he talks about being a 20 foot circle around the hole in regulation. He says that the pros hit it in the "magic circle" far more often than good amateurs, and I agree 100%.

The magic circle is truly what it's all about. There are many factors that go into what separates each level of player from the next, but that one is the most important on a long term basis. Over one round (which I will show below), it can be overcome by short game or better putting by the amateur, or mediocre putting by the pro, but there is simply no substitute for "hitting the pocket," to borrow a bowling analogy. Not every ball thrown in the pocket in bowling results in a strike, just like not every ball hit in the "magic circle" results in a birdie. Keep hitting the pocket, though, and you're going to make a lot of strikes. Keep hitting it in the magic circle, and you're going to make a lot of birdies on a regular basis--the key to competing at elite amateur or professional golf.

Just yesterday I played a Saturday round at the club with a top Champions Tour player. I've played dozens of rounds with this guy. After playing with him over and over and over, I can tell you some pretty indisputable things about a below-scratch amateur versus a tour pro.

As many of you on the site already know, I'm a competitive amateur. I'm a +0.8 right now, and my low index is usually in the +2 range. Years ago, I was more like a +2.5 to +3.5 for much of the year, but those days are gone. I'm 47 now, and I just hit the ball too short and am constantly battling lingering back and side issues. I was never "long," but I was always "long enough." Now I'm not even "long enough." I can't take advantage of any par 5's if they are over 510 or so, and I just don't have the club head speed anymore to access truly tough pins in true tournament conditions (firm greens).

I can still play this game at a reasonable competitive level, and if you put me inside 140 yards, there isn't a lot that separates my game from a pro’s when I'm healthy and can release through impact.. When I was longer, I could take advantage of that strength (my solid play from inside 140), and would be hitting wedge into quite a few holes every round. Because of that, I was able to hit the ball into the “magic circle” quite frequently. Now, on a longer course, I'm lucky to be inside 140 on any holes except the shortest par 4’s and the par 5’s, which greatly reduces my ability to put it in that magic circle.

I only mention my game for comparison's sake when I play with a Tour Pro. And by the way, I'm comparing myself to a Champions Tour player, and not a regular tour player because I'm 47. If I were 32, I'd use a regular Tour Pro as an example. So let’s get into it!

Here's yesterday's round at Bear Creek Golf Club (7,157 75.7/146). We played all tees back except for two par 4's that were up one tee due to some tee maintenance. Played about 7,100 yards and longer than that, actually, due to how soft and wet the fairways are in the morning in the Inland Empire due to temperatures reaching 100 degrees-plus and them having to water so heavily over-night and in the morning.

I'm going to give a hole-by-hole breakdown of how our round went so that you can see what it's really like to play a Tour Pro. Greens yesterday were running at 10.5ish, but on the bumpy side due to recent top-dressing/punching. All the holes have been filled in with grass, but they are still soft and not the truest.

One other thing before I get into details: We gamble when we play. Yesterday we were a fivesome, and there were multiple team bets and individual bets, including the Champions Tour player playing a Web.com player for some $$$. This particular Champions Tour pro is a grinder. He plays golf. That's what he does. He grinds over 3-foot putts with us and HATES to lose to any of us!! LOL

[b]1) 421 par 4, Very little wind at this time. Course soaking wet. Very little roll.[/b]

OBEE: Drive down the middle. 174 to a back left pin. Hit 7-hybrid (32 degrees) to 18 feet. 2 putts for par. EVEN PAR

TOUR PRO: Drive down the middle. 155 to back left pin. Hits 9-iron to 8 feet. BIRDIE. 1-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 1/1, Tour Pro 1/1

[b]2) 424 Par 4.[/b]

OBEE: Drive down the middle.168 to tucked left pin just over huge ridge. I hit 7-hybrid to 20 feet. 2 putts for par. EVEN PAR

TOUR PRO: Tour Pro hits 3-wood down on right side of fairway. 160 to pin. Hits 8-iron to 12 feet. 2 putts for par. 1-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 2/2, Tour Pro 2/2

[b]3) 528 par 5 (second shot is uphill and into a breeze. Plays much longer than 528.[/b]

OBEE: Drive down the middle. 4-wood lay-up to left side of fairway. LW from 70 yards to 12 feets. 2 putts for par. EVEN PAR

TOUR PRO: Drive down the middle. 3-wood carries center bunker and is 20 yards short of green. Pitches to a foot. Birdie. 2-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 3/3, Tour Pro 3/3

[b]4) 415 par 4. Very difficult driving hole with multiple options.[/b]

OBEE: Drive down the middle, but heeled a bit and short. 164 to tucked right pin. 7-hybrid to left front with big ridge in between ball and hole. Bad first putt and miss the 4-foot par putt. BOGEY. 1-OVER

TOUR PRO: Drives over right fairway bunker. 140 to pin. Misses green right. Chips 4-feet long and makes the par save. 2-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 3 / 4, Tour pro 3 / 4.

[b]5) 472 par 4. A bit downhill on drive. Considerably downhill on approach.[/b]

OBEE: Drive into right rough. 207 to back pin. 4-hybrid into right long rough. Pitch out to 20 feet and 2-putt for bogey. 2-OVER

TOUR PRO: Drive down middle. 170 to pin. 8-iron just over green in thick rough. Stubs chip a bit and leaves is short. Misses 10 foot par putt. Bogey. 1-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 3 / 5, Tour Pro 3 / 5

[b]6) 152 par 3 (playing 129 today and downwind now). Tiny green. Trouble short and long.[/b]

OBEE: Choke-down, cut PW to six feet. Putt has a lot of break, and I miss it low. Par. 2-OVER.

TOUR PRO: GW onto back fringe. 20 feet. 2-putts for par. 1-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 4 / 6, Tour Pro 4 / 6

[b]7) 400 par 4[/b]

OBEE: Drive barely into left rough. 9-iron from 151 to 25 feet. 2 putts for par. 2-OVER

TOUR PRO: 3-wood down middle. PW to 10 feet. Lips out birdie putt. 1-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 4 / 7, Tour Pro 5 / 7

[b]8) 177 par 3, playing 168 actual. Down-wind.[/b]

OBEE: 8-iron that I pull left into a deep swale. LW pitch to 6 feet. Make the par save: 2-OVER

TOUR PRO: 8-iron to 10 feet. Lips out again. 1-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 4 / 8, Tour Pro 6 / 8

[b]9) 539 par 5:[/b]

OBEE: Drive into left fairway bunker. 7-hybrid lay-up to 141. 9-iron short and in bunker. LW bunker shot to 4 feet. Save par. 2-OVER

TOUR PRO: Drive into left fairway bunker up. 9-iron lay-up to 140. PW to 30 feet. 2 putts for par. 1-UNDER.

Magic Circle: Obee 4 / 9, Tour Pro 6 / 9.

[b]10) 432 par 4[/b]

OBEE: Drive down middle. 8-iron from 165 to 18 feet. 2 putts for par. 2-OVER

TOUR PRO: 3-wood down middle. 8-iron from 170 to 18 feet. 2 putts for par. 1-UNDER

Magic Circle: Obee 5/ 10, Tour Pro 7 / 10

[b]11) 555 par 5.[/b]

OBEE: Horrible drive into left rough. 320 from pin. Downhill lie, ball nestled down. Horrible 6-hybrid lay-up attempt that I only advance 100 yards. 207 to front left pin out of rough. 4-hybrid that I knock on front-right of green 30 feet. 2 putts for par. 2-OVER

TOUR PRO: Drive down right side, which shortens the hole. 3-wood that he blocks right into water hazard. Drops and pitches on to 18 feet and 2 putts for bogey. EVEN PAR

Magic Circle: Obee 5 / 11, Tour Pro 7 / 11

[b]12) 207 par 3. Into wind and uphill with deep bunkers short.[/b]

OBEE: 3-hybrid just a bit short into deep bunker. LW bunker shot to 3 feet. Make the putt to save par. 2-OVER.

TOUR PRO: Hybrid to 8 feet. Misses the putt and settles for par. EVEN PAR

Magic Circle: Obee 5 / 12, Tour Pro 8 / 12

[b]13) 352 par 4. Strong crosswind.[/b]

OBEE: 4-wood down middle. GW from 109 to 12 feet. 2 putts for par. 2-OVER.

TOUR PRO: Driver down middle. LW from 50 yards to 15 feet. 2 putts for par. EVEN PAR

Magic Circle: Obee 6 / 13, Tour Pro 9 / 13

[b]14) 543 par 5 (plays uphill and into a 10 – 15 mph wind).[/b]

OBEE: Drive down middle. 4-wood lay-up to 107 yards. Choke-down, cut PW to 3 feet. Make the birdie. 1-OVER

TOUR PRO: Drive down the middle. 3-wood up near green, but has an awkward stance and ball is in rough. Hits great pitch to 7 feet. Lips out the putt for birdie and settles for par. EVEN PAR

Magic Circle: Obee 7 / 14, Tour Pro 10 / 14

[b]15) 421 par 4. Upill and into 10 – 15 mph wind.[/b]

OBEE: Drive down right-center of fairway, but I miss it a bit. 205 to front pin. 3-hybrid to 18 feet. 2 putts for par. 1-OVER

TOUR PRO: Drive down middle. Comes over the top on his approach and pulls it into left bunker with downhill lie to downhill pin. Hits an amazing shot, but he still has 10 feet for par. Misses the par and makes bogey. 1-OVER

Magic Circle: Obee 8 / 15, Tour Pro 10 / 15

[b]16) 222 par 3 downhill, with strong wind down and left.[/b]

OBEE: 4-hybrid that I whiff and hit in front bunker, 30 yards short. GW to 10 feet. Miss the par save. 2-OVER

TOUR PRO: 5-iron misses green slightly left. Chips up and saves par. 1-OVER

Magic Circle: Obee 8 / 16, Tour Pro 10 / 16

[b]17) 439 par 4. Wind down and across from right.[/b]

OBEE: Pull-hook drive into left rough. Blast 4-wood from 230 into front bunker. Knock bunker shot to 2-feet. Par. 2-OVER.

TOUR PRO: Drive down middle. 9-iron from 150 to 15 feet. 2 putts for par. 1-OVER

Magic Circle: Obee 8 / 17, Tour Pro 11 / 17

[b]18) 432 par 4 downwind.[/b]

OBEE: Drive down middle. PW from 140 to tough front pin to 8 feet. Miss the birdie and tap in for a 2-OVER 74 on a course rated 75.7/146.

TOUR PRO: Drive down middle. GW from 130 to 12 feet. Misses the birdie and taps in for a 1-OVER 73.

Final “Magic Circle” Numbers: Obee 9 / 18, Tour Pro 12 / 18.

So there you have it. Keep in mind that the round was pretty typical in terms of ball-striking. The Tour Pro hit the ball about like he usually does, but yesterday he maximized his score. Hit hit one ball in the water, and he made [i][b]absolutely nothing[/b][/i] in terms of birdie putts. Based upon his ball-striking yesterday, I would expect his scoring to range from 66 to 73. He scored about as poorly as he possibly could have scored. He just made nothing. He’s actually a very, very good putter, but the greens were a bit bumpy, and they weren’t falling for him.

Based upon my ball-striking, I would expect my score to range from a low of 69 to a high of 78 with that round yesterday. I made a couple nice par saves, but I also made [i][b]zero[/b][/i] birdie putts in the 6 to 18 foot range, and I had quite a few of them.

Final stats:

OBEE: 12/18 GIR, 9/14 fairways, 32 putts, 9 / 18 magic circle, 3 / 4 sand saves, 1 / 2 up-and-down.

TOUR PRO: 13 / 18 GIR, 13 / 14 Fairways, 32 putts, 12 / 18 magic circle, 0 / 1 sand saves, 2 / 3 up-and-down.

So make of that what you will. I play with this guy a lot. Our standard bet is that he plays from the back tees (the tees we played yesterday) at 7,157, and I play one set up from the gold tees 6,874. He gives me 2 a side when we play that way, and over the last 2.5 years in which we have played several dozen rounds, I would say that he is slightly (55/45?) ahead in the bet. If we always played the black tees together as we did yesterday, I would ask him for another shot on the front, for a total of 5 shots. I would take that bet as “fair” whether we played stroke play or match play due to my overall “steadiness” as a player and the fact that I don’t “blow-up” very often (I rarely make double-bogey or worse).

So that’s approximately a five shot difference in our games on a regular basis. Where do those five shots come from?

1) He’s both longer and (a bit) straighter than I am off the tee, and even though he’s 55 years old, he’s getting longer. He’s longer today than he was three years ago according to him. He’s fitter, stronger, and in overall amazing shape with a well-tuned driver for his swing. He hits the ball in the 270 to 290 range on a regular basis. I hit the ball 245 to 265. That’s a BIG difference.
2) He’s a much more consistent putter than I am, especially from “where it counts”: 4 – 10 feet. (I can putt well from time-to-time, but I have no consistency from week to week, month to month).
3) He’s a much better and more consistent mid to long-iron/hybrid player than I am
4) He’s a much, much better and more consistent fairway wood player than I am (he can hit the ball much higher than I can, when necessary, for instance)
5) He’s a slightly better short iron (PW GW SW LW) player than I am
6) He has a moderately better “normal” short game than I do (basic bunker shots, basic pitch and chip shots)
7) He’s significantly better at short game “specialty shots” than I am (very difficult bunker shots, very difficult lies to very difficult pins, etc). For an amateur, I am quite skilled in that area—certainly better than most “scratch” golfers. He is, though, one of the best on tour at those types of shots. This isn’t a big deal, though, due to the fact that a good player can sometimes go several rounds without ever encountering a shot that requires any type of special talent. When you do have one of those shots, though, it sure helps (and saves strokes) to be an expert.
8) He has a far more stable “mental game” and routine than I do. He simply does the same thing over and over and over. His routine is a beauty to behold, as is his demeanor and steadiness on the course.

So there you have it. The five(ish) strokes per round come from all of those areas combined. Sometimes he beats me by 7, 8, even 9 strokes. Sometimes he beats me be only one stroke. Sometimes (quite rarely), I beat him straight up. Overall, though, it’s about five strokes.

One last thing: The tougher the conditions get, the more his superior skills and length will increase the separation in our games to six, seven or even eight shots on average. Two factors play the biggest role in that separation: Green firmness and rough length, with the more important of those two being green firmness. When the greens get firm, the pros ability to stick their 7-irons close far exceeds mine (and most competitive amateurs) due to their higher club head speed and superior launch characteristics/consistency that allows them to hold greens from tough lies and attack pins that I have to play away from.

We can learn a lot by comparing ourselves to the pros, but we have to be realistic when doing so. Golf is made up of levels. Figure out what level you are at and figure out a way to get to the next level. If you're a "mid-capper" (10 to 15 handicap), figure out how to get to "low handicap" (4 to 9). If you're a low handicapper, figure out how to get to "around scratch" (1 to 3). If you're "around scratch," figure out how to get to club scratch (+ 1 to 1). If you're a club scratch, figure out how to get your game to local/regional tournament level (+ 1 to +3). If you're a local/regional tournament level guy, figure out how to become a true elite amateur.

At every level, there's something for you to work on. Somewhere for you to shave strokes. And to me, the only measuring stick to ever use that makes sense is the best players in the world. You will, of course, never get from 14 to elite amateur or pro in a short time, but why would you ever use anything other than the pros as your ideal? Watch them, dissect their games, learn from them. Understand what different conditions mean. What tournament pressure means. What true short-game mastery means. What "owning" different golf shots means.

There's nothing like this game. Shoot for the stars. Maybe you'll catch the moon....

Thanks for reading. I look forward to your comments!!
[/quote]

What hybrids are you playing?

[Obee]

I play four hybrids:

Adams V4 tech 7-hybrid 32 degrees (Graffalloy ProLaunch Blue HY x-stiff)

Adams V4 Tech 6-hybrid 28 degrees

Titleist 913H 24 degree (Fujikura Speeder 904H x-flex

Titleist 913H 19 degree

[Obee]

[quote name='spider' timestamp='1410460008' post='10102471']What strikes me about Obee's notes on the round is that he knew how many feet each putt was. Obee and all how are you measuring this? Pacing it off just guessing or other? Do you do this each round or special case just for this occasion. I can recall my whole round but not the length of most putts accurately. Perhaps this is an issue and I need to pay closer attention. Heck most times I don't like to add up my score til the end.[/quote]

I can pretty much do it for any round I play to within a few feet. The putts inside 20 feet I frequently step off. Those outside 20, I usually just estimate.

[Obee]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1410311944' post='10092729']Playing against someone that good can only make your golf better in the long run, eh obee? That fellas game is downright filthy btw[/quote]

I have learned so much from playing with him.

[Obee]

[quote name='aceofclubs' timestamp='1410144135' post='10082259']Nice post. Sounds like your bunker game is Tour Pro quality. Impressive[/quote]

It has been lately. I think I'm like 12 for 15 in my last 6 rounds. LOL!

[Obee]

[quote name='Emthree' timestamp='1410213849' post='10085859']Good read, just out of curiosity, how did the web.com player do?[/quote]

He played okay, but finished with a triple (hit it in the water) to shoot 75. He also had a tough putting day.

He hits it way, way, way longer than I do. Like 290 - 320 long. He outdrove me by 70 yards on some holes.

[Obee]

[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1410291809' post='10090997']Obee - I'm 29, play off a 0.3 handicap (non-plus) and have been trying to overcome the last hurdle to shoot really low consistently. i've made a lot of progress on the 'circle' but my biggest issue is putting. i haven't been able to get consistently lower than 30 putts per round and it's the only thing holding me back from going VERY low. i'm averaging 55-56% of fairways and over 62% of greens. my scrambling could get a little better admittedly (roughly 47%) so as well. my distances are longer than both you and the professional, so i'm trying to figure out where i can get better.

sorry for the ramble - my question is this -

as a tour pro, what would be a good average putts per round stat?[/quote]

Assuming the greens you play are in decent shape, you should be at 27.5 to 29 putts a round when only hitting 62% of greens. You short game almost certainly needs significant work. Tell me where you play most of your golf. Rating/slope, etc....

[jmvargas]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1410492227' post='10105267']
I play four hybrids:

Adams V4 tech 7-hybrid 32 degrees (Graffalloy ProLaunch Blue HY x-stiff)

Adams V4 Tech 6-hybrid 28 degrees

Titleist 913H 24 degree (Fujikura Speeder 904H x-flex




Titleist 913H 19 degree
[/quote]

...ha ha!!..i had a feeling your 32* 7-hybrid was an Adams V4....

i have them from the 3-hybrid up to the 7-hybrid but with with the stock lite(senior) shafts----i currently use only the 6H and 7H as i prefer using my 3/5/7/9/11-wood right now..

BTW that Adams V4 7H has been discontinued IIRC and i have all 3 versions of that club--ie--V3 7-semi-hybrid,V4 forged 7-iron and 7-hybrid..

[isaacbm]

It would be interesting to follow 4-5 rounds just like this one. Hard to really see the differences in such a small sample.

I have a feeling that your tour pro buddy had a average to poor putting day that day. Seems like with only the smallest change, he'd have been 3 or 4 lower.

Seems like that 73 was about as high as he possibly could have shot that day.


Edit: I see that you said as much at the end of your post. Oops!

Just really stood out to me that h made no putts. A good putting day and that's 67 like nothing.

[Obee]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1410504169' post='10105629']It would be interesting to follow 4-5 rounds just like this one. Hard to really see the differences in such a small sample.

I have a feeling that your tour pro buddy had a average to poor putting day that day. Seems like with only the smallest change, he'd have been 3 or 4 lower.

Seems like that 73 was about as high as he possibly could have shot that day.


Edit: I see that you said as much at the end of your post. Oops!

Just really stood out to me that h made no putts. A good putting day and that's 67 like nothing.[/quote]

Yeah, I really try hard not to leave anything out.

I also could have shot lower myself, but not as low as he could have. Bottom line: he hit it closer than I did all day. That kind of difference in proximity to the hole day after day after day is where the true difference lies.

I think I'm going to start posting all of our rounds together. It will be an interesting exercise....

[cardoustie]

Also of note, last winter my +3 buddy played with a mid level senior PGA tour player down in Arizona a few times. The Champions play was 3 and 4 shots better both days. 71-68 and 70-66
The comments about the senior player were
> Better putter
> made more birdies
> took full advantage of the par 5's
> Senior player wilder off the tee, but same length
> slightly better around the greens

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1410492956' post='10105333']
[quote name='aceofclubs' timestamp='1410144135' post='10082259']Nice post. Sounds like your bunker game is Tour Pro quality. Impressive[/quote]

It has been lately. I think I'm like 12 for 15 in my last 6 rounds. LOL!
[/quote]

It helps to have bunkers with pads underneath quality sand at the right depth, don't you agree? Especially in that deep green front bunker on #4. Someone can die in there..

[Swoosh-Thud]

Bottom line is a scratch player gets his best score by playing his best ball.

A tour player (by default) gets his best score by playing his worst ball.

Scratch players are not even close to close to mini tour or junior circuit players. Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as pros.

Also, don't forget the seniors have been doing it for decades.

[Hoot151]

[quote name='Swoosh-Thud' timestamp='1410550515' post='10108073']Scratch players are not even close to close to mini tour or junior circuit players. Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as pros.[/quote]

Seems like this thread just argued to the contrary, that pros are a little bit better at 6-7 different areas, which adds up to several strokes per round.

[Largechris1]

Interesting to hear you using that 7 hybrid so effectively. My grandma loves her 7 hybrid as well.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='Hoot151' timestamp='1410552771' post='10108231']
[quote name='Swoosh-Thud' timestamp='1410550515' post='10108073']Scratch players are not even close to close to mini tour or junior circuit players. Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as pros.[/quote]

Seems like this thread just argued to the contrary, that pros are a little bit better at 6-7 different areas, which adds up to several strokes per round.
[/quote]A "little bit better" is very, very, very, very deceiving.

Every "little" is worth about 2 strokes, lol.

I'm talkin Tour Pro, not a Champions Player.

As I said, many, if they could stand next to an Ultra-Elite Am and play with him, their jaw's would drop at the consistency and shot making ability.

And this is an Ultra-Elite Amateur who could not make it on the Nike/Hogan Tours nor has he made a single cut in the Web.com tourneys that he's gotten a sponsor's exemption into.

Granted, his last Web.com event, he went 76-74(par 71), to miss the cut by 6 strokes(144), however, those 6 strokes are a much greater number than they appear on paper.

It's not tourney pressure or atmosphere, though if any of ya really think that it's a "little bit here, and a little bit there," that separates you from a Pro, grab one of these Pros that ya play with and play him for serious money, and play him scratch.

Yea, scratch.

Strokes are for chops.

You think you can run with the big dogs?

Play by the big dog rules.

You'll see a little bit of his competitive side, and you'll see what you're made of.

A little bit better at 6-7 areas?

Yea, then multiply that by 6, and you'll get the stroke difference between ya in a 72 hole event, LMAO

At least I have these meds as an excuse for occasionally bein delusional

What's yours?!?

And Hoot, my post was not directed at you, your's was just the one closest to mine, lol

I go off on these rants occasionally, then I'll fall asleep and be out of your hair

Have a great week-end Gals & Gents,
Richard

[mdgboxx]

Great thread, quite a relief from the somewhat borish reading of late.

Thank you, Obee.

[Sean2]

A good friend I play a lot of golf with regularly shoots in the 60's. Watching him play golf is a lot of fun. His 16 year old daughter is even better (she has already played in two US Women's Opens).

I mean, low single digits think they are good, but really when push comes to shove, they have no idea...

So, when people ask me if I am any good at golf, I say, "No." Because, as an 11 HI, and seeing what good golf really is, I'm not.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1410561642' post='10108853']
A good friend I play a lot of golf with regularly shoots in the 60's. Watching him play golf is a lot of fun. His 16 year old daughter is even better (she has already played in two US Women's Opens).

I mean, low single digits think they are good, but really when push comes to shove, they have no idea...

So, when people ask me if I am any good at golf, I say, "No." Because, as an 11 HI, and seeing what good golf really is, I'm not.
[/quote]

Sean2, as an 11, me thinks you've taken the 'good' pendulum and swung it too far left, calling anyone regularly scoring in the 60's just good. That's not good golf, but outstanding golf. To my way of thinking, regularly in the 70's or intermittently lower is good golf and 11 is decent golf. If it wasn't good, than amateur tournaments wouldn't allow -5 index, nor would the US Open qualifying allow -1.4