Shotgun scrammble burn!

[Break81]

So a buddy of mine and I played in a charity shotgun tourney and we got paired up with another twosome as our partners. On our 15th hole, there was a closest to the pin and as one of the later groups we were surprised how far away from the pin the marker was stuck in the green.

 

Well in order to be a participant of the closest to the pin you had to buy in to a raffle package which I did not do so I wasn't paying close attention to the rules etc. Anyway one of the guys we paired up with hit his ball and was about 1-1/2 feet OUTSIDE of the marker as we approach the green. Somehow when we get to the green he is a foot CLOSER to the pin than the marker. I didn't say anything but was pretty shocked. As we left the green I look back and he had written his name on the marker and moved it to where he claimed his ball stopped.

 

After the round we have a dinner and prize ceremony and when they announced closest to the pin, the guy gets up and struts up to the front of the room and the tourney director says, "Ummmm, that hole was closest to the pin for the ladies."

 

BAM!!! Embarrassment and Karma !! The guy had a name that could have been for a man or a lady but watching him walk back to his seat was PRICELESS.

 

I seriously don't understand people who would do this and be ok sleeping at night.

[BuckyBadger]

Happens more than you think.

I'm glad he got burned but don't you have a moral responsibility to call him out on the green?

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410716697' post='10115783']
So a buddy of mine and I played in a charity shotgun tourney and we got paired up with another twosome as our partners. On our 15th hole, there was a closest to the pin and as one of the later groups we were surprised how far away from the pin the marker was stuck in the green.

Well in order to be a participant of the closest to the pin you had to buy in to a raffle package which I did not do so I wasn't paying close attention to the rules etc. Anyway one of the guys we paired up with hit his ball and was about 1-1/2 feet OUTSIDE of the marker as we approach the green. Somehow when we get to the green he is a foot CLOSER to the pin than the marker. I didn't say anything but was pretty shocked. As we left the green I look back and he had written his name on the marker and moved it to where he claimed his ball stopped.

After the round we have a dinner and prize ceremony and when they announced closest to the pin, the guy gets up and struts up to the front of the room and the tourney director says, "Ummmm, that hole was closest to the pin for the ladies."

BAM!!! Embarrassment and Karma !! The guy had a name that could have been for a man or a lady but watching him walk back to his seat was PRICELESS.

I seriously don't understand people who would do this and be ok sleeping at night.
[/quote]

Have no fear, he slept better than you did.
His type doesn't count sheeps to get to sleep, they count the ways they can screw someone else the next day.

But, as BuckyBadger pointed out, didn't you have a moral responsibility to call him on it?

I know I would have...Because I am Can-tank-er-ous!

[Medic]

You gained something of enormous value in your tournament.

You now know that you cannot/should not trust that guy.

If someone lies/cheats in golf they will do it elsewhere. I would not leave my wallet laying around where this guy might see it.

[Ballgofarboy]

Absolute BS and you should have called him on it. Part of that responsibility is protecting the field. I have played with less than reputable people in the past and sometimes all it takes is a look to get them back on the straight and narrow.

We played in a payday scramble a long time ago, we told the Pro we wanted to play behind a group that had won the previous two months. I did not think they were cheating but it was bring whoever you wanted to play with and they were all fair players but not great. They were smack talking about a three peat when some other guys came and got me. Between the 4 of us our HCP was sub 8. We asked to be put in right behind these guys so we could keep and eye on them and vice versa.

They watched us birdie the first 9 holes we played. Then we made a couple of pars. We snake in a long birdie and that is when it was on. They stood on the back of a 176 yd par 3 and were heckling us when we hit up. 1st guy was 24 foot from the hole and side hill putt. Next guy missed the green, next guy 18 foot straight up the hill putt, then I two hop one in for an ACE! They walk up look in the hole and signal a TD! We proceeded to finish up eagle eagle eagle birdie birdie eagle.

We shot -20 on the day scratch and lapped the field. Our CG told us we were not going to every be playing again together. That was fine by us we wanted to shut down the smack talk.

[Break81]

Ok to clarify calling him out was not the time or place. Again this was a casual charity round for a good cause. The closest to the pin prize was something not of much value, plus I work with the tournament director and I would have mentioned it to him to make sure the 2nd name on the marker got something. I didn't want to SOUR the round or the dinner by having an issue / argument for a good cause type of day.

To add to this guy and his lack of rules, he had a laser rangefinder with slope, and since he had said he played in the men's club every week, I asked, "So do you put the plug in or not use the rangefinder during tournament rounds?" He looked at me and said, "oh we don't care about stuff like that." Yeah right buddy... I am sure if you win by 1 stroke, someone cares.


Also in a scramble you get 1 club length from the location your group hits from right? Well for him this means if you are on the fringe, 3 feet from the putting surface you can put that ball on the edge of the fringe and the green thus not having the put through the fringe at all.

Again this was a day to raise money and have fun not to call out a cheater and ruin the day. The person who actually got closest to the pin got her prize and I would have made sure she got something if things didn't blow up in his face.

[Hellstorm]

I played in a group for a scramble earlier this summer with two guys like that. As a group, we had 4 mulligans. I thik these guys used mulligans on every hole. Teeing the ball up in the rough, duffing a shot and taking a mulligan, taking practice putts on the same line we were putting....you name it. Finally I called one guy out as he was writing his name on a long drive marker that he had no business winning. I told him he might as well drive it up another 50 yards just so there was no chance somebody could come along and win it. He wasn't happy about it. Anyway, I think he won a box of ReLoaded Top Flights for his troubles. I dont trust any team in scrambles though unless there are two teams playing together.

[BuckyBadger]

With great power comes great responsibility.

Where do you draw the line? Winning the closet to the pin contest might have been a big deal to the lady who hit the shot. By letting the cheater take credit for it and winning, YOU have cheated her. Doesn't matter if you speak up and get her a prize too. It doesn't matter if the prize was only worth a few dollars. You would have been cheating her out of the win.

I realize you didn't want to spoil the round and say something like, "What the hell are you doing?" But I wouldn't feel right by doing nothing when it happened.

[Break81]

[quote name='BuckyBadger' timestamp='1410727345' post='10116411']
With great power comes great responsibility.

Where do you draw the line? Winning the closet to the pin contest might have been a big deal to the lady who hit the shot. By letting the cheater take credit for it and winning, YOU have cheated her. Doesn't matter if you speak up and get her a prize too. It doesn't matter if the prize was only worth a few dollars. You would have been cheating her out of the win.

I realize you didn't want to spoil the round and say something like, "What the hell are you doing?" But I wouldn't feel right by doing nothing when it happened.
[/quote]

Point taken. I just weighed the pro's and con's of the situation and made the decision is was best overall to not disrupt the event. I can't 2nd guess that decision.

[SHIVAN]

We've always played the one club rule as "must be on same surface". So if your ball is in the first cut around the green, it must remain there, but can be moved as close to the green as possible so that the putt starts out off the green, but must only navigate through 0.1" of fringe before it's on the green.

Now, if no one in your scrambles stipulates that as an actual rule, then one club from your chosen ball's position = one club. Even if that means going from the rough to the putting surface using your buddies 51" Adam Scott putter.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410733193' post='10116813']
[quote name='BuckyBadger' timestamp='1410727345' post='10116411']
With great power comes great responsibility.

Where do you draw the line? Winning the closet to the pin contest might have been a big deal to the lady who hit the shot. By letting the cheater take credit for it and winning, YOU have cheated her. Doesn't matter if you speak up and get her a prize too. It doesn't matter if the prize was only worth a few dollars. You would have been cheating her out of the win.

I realize you didn't want to spoil the round and say something like, "What the hell are you doing?" But I wouldn't feel right by doing nothing when it happened.
[/quote]

Point taken. I just weighed the pro's and con's of the situation and made the decision is was best overall to not disrupt the event. I can't 2nd guess that decision.
[/quote]

Had you said something/anything to the Tournament Director as you got off the 18th hole, he probably would have been informed that his "exploit" was not applicable in this case...And your "job" would have been done.

IMHO, it was never your responsibility to weigh the pro's and con's of the situation. That was the Committee's power of decision.

I'm not coming down on you, I'm just "2nd guessing" your decision.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410736767' post='10117115']
We've always played the one club rule as "must be on same surface". So if your ball is in the first cut around the green, it must remain there, but can be moved as close to the green as possible so that the putt starts out off the green, but must only navigate through 0.1" of fringe before it's on the green.

Now, if no one in your scrambles stipulates that as an actual rule, then one club from your chosen ball's position = one club. Even if that means going from the rough to the putting surface using your buddies 51" Adam Scott putter.
[/quote]

Where did the "not closer to the hole" go?

I've never played in a scramble where you could "place" closer to the hole. We mark and don't play ahead of the marker. It's a half a pie kind of thing, not a full circle around the marker.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1410737353' post='10117147']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410736767' post='10117115']
We've always played the one club rule as "must be on same surface". So if your ball is in the first cut around the green, it must remain there, but can be moved as close to the green as possible so that the putt starts out off the green, but must only navigate through 0.1" of fringe before it's on the green.

Now, if no one in your scrambles stipulates that as an actual rule, then one club from your chosen ball's position = one club. Even if that means going from the rough to the putting surface using your buddies 51" Adam Scott putter.
[/quote]

Where did the "not closer to the hole" go?

I've never played in a scramble where you could "place" closer to the hole. We mark and don't play ahead of the marker. It's a half a pie kind of thing, not a full circle around the marker.
[/quote]

That is always assumed, and assuming a circular cut of fringe it's pretty obvious how you move one club over getting on the 0.1" line of the fringe and maintaining the same chord length from the hole - no closer.

[deadsolid...shank]

It's actually a pretty rare situation where you can't move your ball to the very edge of the green and not be closer to the hole. That's pretty standard scramble play, and well within scramble rules m

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410737591' post='10117159']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1410737353' post='10117147']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410736767' post='10117115']
We've always played the one club rule as "must be on same surface". So if your ball is in the first cut around the green, it must remain there, but can be moved as close to the green as possible so that the putt starts out off the green, but must only navigate through 0.1" of fringe before it's on the green.

Now, if no one in your scrambles stipulates that as an actual rule, then one club from your chosen ball's position = one club. Even if that means going from the rough to the putting surface using your buddies 51" Adam Scott putter.
[/quote]

Where did the "not closer to the hole" go?

I've never played in a scramble where you could "place" closer to the hole. We mark and don't play ahead of the marker. It's a half a pie kind of thing, not a full circle around the marker.
[/quote]

That is always assumed, and assuming a circular cut of fringe it's pretty obvious how you move one club over getting on the 0.1" line of the fringe and maintaining the same chord length from the hole - no closer.
[/quote]



Misinterpretation, reading too fast, again!...Nothing new, coming from me...aarrgggg!

[SHIVAN]

Ah, I see now where it could be misinterpreted on how I wrote it. My bad. Yeah, not just move it forward to the edge, closer to the hole, but rather to the side using a driver or long putter to get to the fringe's edge.

[Break81]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410741538' post='10117489']
Ah, I see now where it could be misinterpreted on how I wrote it. My bad. Yeah, not just move it forward to the edge, closer to the hole, but rather to the side using a driver or long putter to get to the fringe's edge.
[/quote]
Well I can tell you that if you are 3-4 feet from the putting surface and you take the 1-club rule to get to the .01" as you mention there is a 99% chance you are moving the ball closer to the hole.

[Break81]

[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1410736937' post='10117129']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410733193' post='10116813']
[quote name='BuckyBadger' timestamp='1410727345' post='10116411']
With great power comes great responsibility.

Where do you draw the line? Winning the closet to the pin contest might have been a big deal to the lady who hit the shot. By letting the cheater take credit for it and winning, YOU have cheated her. Doesn't matter if you speak up and get her a prize too. It doesn't matter if the prize was only worth a few dollars. You would have been cheating her out of the win.

I realize you didn't want to spoil the round and say something like, "What the hell are you doing?" But I wouldn't feel right by doing nothing when it happened.
[/quote]

Point taken. I just weighed the pro's and con's of the situation and made the decision is was best overall to not disrupt the event. I can't 2nd guess that decision.
[/quote]

Had you said something/anything to the Tournament Director as you got off the 18th hole, he probably would have been informed that his "exploit" was not applicable in this case...And your "job" would have been done.

IMHO, it was never your responsibility to weigh the pro's and con's of the situation. That was th
e Committee's power of decision.

I'm not coming down on you, I'm just "2nd guessing" your decision.
[/quote]
Again that is easy to say from an outsider perspective. There is a lot of things happening very quickly and our group only had the room for a short period of time after the event. To have a discussion about possible cheating would have been inappropriate when the purpose of that time was to raise money and as much as possible. The raffle and auctions had to be done as quickly as possible.

Also the protecting the field argument doesn't hold much water on a scramble tournament of this type when the winning team shot 57 (yeah -14). It's well know half the teams in these formats cheat, take extra mulligans, 1 mulligan = a mulligan for the entire team, you name it it happens all on the same day.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410754103' post='10118485']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410741538' post='10117489']
Ah, I see now where it could be misinterpreted on how I wrote it. My bad. Yeah, not just move it forward to the edge, closer to the hole, but rather to the side using a driver or long putter to get to the fringe's edge.
[/quote]
Well I can tell you that if you are 3-4 feet from the putting surface and you take the 1-club rule to get to the .01" as you mention there is a 99% chance you are moving the ball closer to the hole.
[/quote]

The course you play has 3-4 feet of fringe? You know because first cut around a green is usually about 18" or so....

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410754414' post='10118495']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1410736937' post='10117129']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410733193' post='10116813']
[quote name='BuckyBadger' timestamp='1410727345' post='10116411']
With great power comes great responsibility.

Where do you draw the line? Winning the closet to the pin contest might have been a big deal to the lady who hit the shot. By letting the cheater take credit for it and winning, YOU have cheated her. Doesn't matter if you speak up and get her a prize too. It doesn't matter if the prize was only worth a few dollars. You would have been cheating her out of the win.

I realize you didn't want to spoil the round and say something like, "What the hell are you doing?" But I wouldn't feel right by doing nothing when it happened.
[/quote]

Point taken. I just weighed the pro's and con's of the situation and made the decision is was best overall to not disrupt the event. I can't 2nd guess that decision.
[/quote]

Had you said something/anything to the Tournament Director as you got off the 18th hole, he probably would have been informed that his "exploit" was not applicable in this case...And your "job" would have been done.

IMHO, it was never your responsibility to weigh the pro's and con's of the situation. That was th
e Committee's power of decision.

I'm not coming down on you, I'm just "2nd guessing" your decision.
[/quote]
Again that is easy to say from an outsider perspective. There is a lot of things happening very quickly and our group only had the room for a short period of time after the event. To have a discussion about possible cheating would have been inappropriate when the purpose of that time was to raise money and as much as possible. The raffle and auctions had to be done as quickly as possible.

Also the protecting the field argument doesn't hold much water on a scramble tournament of this type when the winning team shot 57 (yeah -14). It's well know half the teams in these formats cheat, take extra mulligans, 1 mulligan = a mulligan for the entire team, you name it it happens all on the same day.
[/quote]

So because everyone else cheats, it's Ok to cheat?

I think we've identified two people who can't be trusted when no one is looking. Sad.

[Fore_Man]

AND if you win the tourney and don't cheat there still seem to be whispers from doubters after the round.

[Break81]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410781504' post='10119061']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410754103' post='10118485']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410741538' post='10117489']
Ah, I see now where it could be misinterpreted on how I wrote it. My bad. Yeah, not just move it forward to the edge, closer to the hole, but rather to the side using a driver or long putter to get to the fringe's edge.
[/quote]
Well I can tell you that if you are 3-4 feet from the putting surface and you take the 1-club rule to get to the .01" as you mention there is a 99% chance you are moving the ball closer to the hole.
[/quote]

The course you play has 3-4 feet of fringe? You know because first cut around a green is usually about 18" or so....
[/quote]
Yes, the 1st cut sometimes has more then 18". Lost of holes allow a "run up" section on the front of the green. You could have 20 feet of "fringe" type condition.

[Break81]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410781625' post='10119065']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410754414' post='10118495']
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1410736937' post='10117129']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410733193' post='10116813']
[quote name='BuckyBadger' timestamp='1410727345' post='10116411']
With great power comes great responsibility.

Where do you draw the line? Winning the closet to the pin contest might have been a big deal to the lady who hit the shot. By letting the cheater take credit for it and winning, YOU have cheated her. Doesn't matter if you speak up and get her a prize too. It doesn't matter if the prize was only worth a few dollars. You would have been cheating her out of the win.

I realize you didn't want to spoil the round and say something like, "What the hell are you doing?" But I wouldn't feel right by doing nothing when it happened.
[/quote]

Point taken. I just weighed the pro's and con's of the situation and made the decision is was best overall to not disrupt the event. I can't 2nd guess that decision.
[/quote]

Had you said something/anything to the Tournament Director as you got off the 18th hole, he probably would have been informed that his "exploit" was not applicable in this case...And your "job" would have been done.

IMHO, it was never your responsibility to weigh the pro's and con's of the situation. That was th
e Committee's power of decision.

I'm not coming down on you, I'm just "2nd guessing" your decision.
[/quote]
Again that is easy to say from an outsider perspective. There is a lot of things happening very quickly and our group only had the room for a short period of time after the event. To have a discussion about possible cheating would have been inappropriate when the purpose of that time was to raise money and as much as possible. The raffle and auctions had to be done as quickly as possible.

Also the protecting the field argument doesn't hold much water on a scramble tournament of this type when the winning team shot 57 (yeah -14). It's well know half the teams in these formats cheat, take extra mulligans, 1 mulligan = a mulligan for the entire team, you name it it happens all on the same day.
[/quote]

So because everyone else cheats, it's Ok to cheat?

I think we've identified two people who can't be trusted when no one is looking. Sad.
[/quote]
Who said it was ok to cheat? Did I cheat? Read my comments...... the purpose of the event was to raise money and a dispute at that point in time would have been a distraction. End of story.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410788133' post='10119487']
You could have 20 feet of "fringe" type condition.[/quote]

So then no club in your bag could give you "one club" and get anywhere near the green then, could it? Thought not.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410788213' post='10119493']
Who said it was ok to cheat? Did I cheat? Read my comments...... the purpose of the event was to raise money and a dispute at that point in time would have been a distraction. End of story.[/quote]

Complicit cheating. Yes, absolutely.

Integrity is the measure of a man who does the right thing, even when it's difficult, when no one is looking.

You keep trying to reason away why you aren't involved. Sounds like a guilty conscience to me.

[Break81]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410788338' post='10119499']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410788133' post='10119487']
You could have 20 feet of "fringe" type condition.[/quote]

So then no club in your bag could give you "one club" and get anywhere near the green then, could it? Thought not.
[/quote]

Well when you are 44" from the putting surface and your driver is 45", and you move the ball 44" closer to the hole, that's a BS move. You are calling me a cheater by association because I didn't call the guy out publically, yet you are defending one of the devious ways people cheat in a scramble. Classic...... your a real treat my man. May I never get paired up with a gentleman such as yourself.

[jnradioactive]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410716697' post='10115783']

Well in order to be a participant of the closest to the pin you had to buy in to a raffle package which I did not do so I wasn't paying close attention to the rules etc. [b]Anyway one of the guys we paired up with hit his ball and was about 1-1/2 feet OUTSIDE of the marker as we approach the green. Somehow when we get to the green he is a foot CLOSER to the pin than the marker[/b]. I didn't say anything but was pretty shocked. As we left the green I look back and he had written his name on the marker and moved it to where he claimed his ball stopped.
[/quote]

Hmmm not getting it... you were paired up with them wouldn't you have seen him move the ball??

[SHIVAN]

You could have 20 feet of "fringe" type condition.

 

So then no club in your bag could give you "one club" and get anywhere near the green then, could it? Thought not.

 

Well when you are 44" from the putting surface and your driver is 45", and you move the ball 44" closer to the hole, that's a BS move. You are calling me a cheater by association because I didn't call the guy out publically, yet you are defending one of the devious ways people cheat in a scramble. Classic...... your a real treat my man. May I never get paired up with a gentleman such as yourself.

 

I see that you do not understand how chord length works in geometry, with a single focal point shared between chord end points -- of equal length away -- for instance the hole. You can have an equilateral triangle formed with one side being the 45" driver. and the other two sides being, you know, equal lengths....

 

Now that being said, the rule we've always been instructed to use is that the lie must remain the same, and it's anywhere up to one club length away from the original ball selection, no closer to the hole. Assuming a non-rectangular green, and a typical fringe of around 18", this is pretty easy to accomplish under those instructions.

 

 

M = hole

B= original location of the selected shot

X = new location

BX = club length

 

MB = MX

 

Wow, geometry.

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410789412' post='10119581']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410788977' post='10119541']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410788338' post='10119499']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410788133' post='10119487']
You could have 20 feet of "fringe" type condition.[/quote]

So then no club in your bag could give you "one club" and get anywhere near the green then, could it? Thought not.
[/quote]

Well when you are 44" from the putting surface and your driver is 45", and you move the ball 44" closer to the hole, that's a BS move. You are calling me a cheater by association because I didn't call the guy out publically, yet you are defending one of the devious ways people cheat in a scramble. Classic...... your a real treat my man. May I never get paired up with a gentleman such as yourself.
[/quote]

I see that you do not understand how chord length works in geometry, with a single focal point shared between chord end points -- of equal length away -- for instance the hole. You can have an equilateral triangle formed with one side being the 45" driver. and the other two sides being, you know, equal lengths....

Now that being said, the rule we've always been instructed to use is that the lie must remain the same, and it's anywhere up to one club length away from the original ball selection, no closer to the hole. Assuming a non-rectangular green, and a typical fringe of around 18", this is pretty easy to accomplish under those instructions.
[/quote]

Thats how we've always played it. But I can see Break81's point, if there is a bigger fringe area (in that 3-4' range), I can see where its going to be difficult to move the ball 3'-4' to get next to the green without it being closer to the hole.

I guess we've never run into that situation with that much fringe.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1410789654' post='10119595']
...if there is a bigger fringe area (in that 3-4' range), I can see where its going to be difficult to move the ball 3'-4' to get next to the green without it being closer to the hole.[/quote]

Just depends on the shape of the cut around the green, I suppose. Again that is not the scenario I was outlining though.