Shotgun scrammble burn!

[Joe Rockhead]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410716697' post='10115783']
So a buddy of mine and I played in a charity shotgun tourney and we got paired up with another twosome as our partners. On our 15th hole, there was a closest to the pin and as one of the later groups we were surprised how far away from the pin the marker was stuck in the green.

Well in order to be a participant of the closest to the pin you had to buy in to a raffle package which I did not do so I wasn't paying close attention to the rules etc. Anyway one of the guys we paired up with hit his ball and was about 1-1/2 feet OUTSIDE of the marker as we approach the green. Somehow when we get to the green he is a foot CLOSER to the pin than the marker. I didn't say anything but was pretty shocked. As we left the green I look back and he had written his name on the marker and moved it to where he claimed his ball stopped.

After the round we have a dinner and prize ceremony and when they announced closest to the pin, the guy gets up and struts up to the front of the room and the tourney director says, "Ummmm, that hole was closest to the pin for the ladies."

BAM!!! Embarrassment and Karma !! The guy had a name that could have been for a man or a lady but watching him walk back to his seat was PRICELESS.

I seriously don't understand people who would do this and be ok sleeping at night.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC75aU47GRk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC75aU47GRk[/url]

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410790074' post='10119621']
[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1410789654' post='10119595']
...if there is a bigger fringe area (in that 3-4' range), I can see where its going to be difficult to move the ball 3'-4' to get next to the green without it being closer to the hole.[/quote]

Just depends on the shape of the cut around the green, I suppose. Again that is not the scenario I was outlining though.
[/quote]

Yeah, the green shape makes all the difference. If it's pretty deep and narrow it's pretty easy to move and not be closer.

But again, it's very normal scramble play, I've never seen anyone have a problem with it. Most times if we feel it's even close to being closer to the hole we'll call the other team over to see what they think.

[larrybud]

I played in a 2-man scramble a month ago where the guys in front of us who were coming up the opposite fairway (we were in their fairway) were about to move the long drive marker.

No way in the world this guy was longer than the marker, and we called him out on it. I said if you don't agree, then let's get a third party. There happened to be a ranger nearby, and the ranger did NOT give him his way.

[markheardjr]

We played a scramble two weeks ago. 18th hole is an elevated tee on a par 5, down into a river valley. My buddy CRUSHED his SLDR, probably 330y in the air, another 20y roll off a huge kick off a dry hump in the fairway. We had 105y into a par 5 (105 straight back up the river valley cliff.) But he grabs the long drive maker, he's clearly 80y passed it. The name was "D Massucci" or something like that. He signed his name, we play up, lip our 3 eagle putts and tap in birdie. Some guys playing the adjacent hole mentioned it was the Ladies long drive, not for men. The marker didn't say that. Apparently it was on the little rules sheet that we never even received. So he ran back down and scratched his name off and put it back. Turns out it was for ladies, D was for DeeDee Massucci or whatever her name was. Embarassment avoided just narrowly.

[Break81]

[quote name='jnradioactive' timestamp='1410789175' post='10119561']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410716697' post='10115783']
Well in order to be a participant of the closest to the pin you had to buy in to a raffle package which I did not do so I wasn't paying close attention to the rules etc. [b]Anyway one of the guys we paired up with hit his ball and was about 1-1/2 feet OUTSIDE of the marker as we approach the green. Somehow when we get to the green he is a foot CLOSER to the pin than the marker[/b]. I didn't say anything but was pretty shocked. As we left the green I look back and he had written his name on the marker and moved it to where he claimed his ball stopped.
[/quote]

Hmmm not getting it... you were paired up with them wouldn't you have seen him move the ball??
[/quote]
No he wasn't in my cart and I had to go behind the green to retrieve my ball as we were going to play his. By the time I got my ball and started waling back he was already at his.

[Kaysquare]

I've played in many scrambles where I'm the "token girl" (they need me for the drives & putting). Most every group I've played with will have at least one guy who is willing to blatantly cheat. In one particular scramble I guy put my name on the "closest to the pin" marker on a par 3. Believe me, my shot was NOT the closest to the pin. When I asked him what the heck he was doing, he said "I want you to win this". He could not understand why I made him take my name off. Because of this, I have to assume there's a cheater in most every group in a scramble, probably more than one.

[Break81]

You could have 20 feet of "fringe" type condition.

 

So then no club in your bag could give you "one club" and get anywhere near the green then, could it? Thought not.

 

Well when you are 44" from the putting surface and your driver is 45", and you move the ball 44" closer to the hole, that's a BS move. You are calling me a cheater by association because I didn't call the guy out publically, yet you are defending one of the devious ways people cheat in a scramble. Classic...... your a real treat my man. May I never get paired up with a gentleman such as yourself.

 

I see that you do not understand how chord length works in geometry, with a single focal point shared between chord end points -- of equal length away -- for instance the hole. You can have an equilateral triangle formed with one side being the 45" driver. and the other two sides being, you know, equal lengths....

 

Now that being said, the rule we've always been instructed to use is that the lie must remain the same, and it's anywhere up to one club length away from the original ball selection, no closer to the hole. Assuming a non-rectangular green, and a typical fringe of around 18", this is pretty easy to accomplish under those instructions.

 

 

M = hole

B= original location of the selected shot

X = new location

BX = club length

 

MB = MX

 

Wow, geometry.

On a perfectly round green with a center pin location you would never be able to improve your line because you would always have the same amount of fringe. However. I never said there wasn't time where you in fact could be further away yet still closer to the putting surface. Just the thought you can do it most of the time and be at the very edge seems only possible if all fringes we as you say 18" wide.

 

You make it appear that it is always possible to do this and it simply isn't. I won't take time to make a chart but say you have 45" left or right of your original ball location, no closer to the hole but equal to the original distance, there would be many times you would not be able to get your ball position to the edge of the putting surface. Maybe you get some of that distance but many times to get to the edge you would be shortening the distance between you and the hole by more than just a few inches.

[Break81]

Sorry I just wanted to share a story and feel like the thread has been hi-jacked a little.

[Bob Cat]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410819170' post='10122261']
Sorry I just wanted to share a story and feel like the thread has been hi-jacked a little.
[/quote]

No worries. I get the point and enjoyed the "burn".

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410716697' post='10115783']
So a buddy of mine and I played in a charity shotgun tourney and we got paired up with another twosome as our partners. On our 15th hole, there was a closest to the pin and as one of the later groups we were surprised how far away from the pin the marker was stuck in the green.

[color=#a52a2a][b]Well in order to be a participant of the closest to the pin you had to buy in to a raffle package[/b][/color] which I did not do so I wasn't paying close attention to the rules etc. Anyway one of the guys we paired up with hit his ball and was about 1-1/2 feet OUTSIDE of the marker as we approach the green. Somehow when we get to the green he is a foot CLOSER to the pin than the marker. I didn't say anything but was pretty shocked. As we left the green I look back and he had written his name on the marker and moved it to where he claimed his ball stopped.

After the round we have a dinner and prize ceremony and when they announced closest to the pin, the guy gets up and struts up to the front of the room and the tourney director says, "Ummmm, that hole was closest to the pin for the ladies."

BAM!!! Embarrassment and Karma !! The guy had a name that could have been for a man or a lady but watching him walk back to his seat was PRICELESS.

I seriously don't understand people who would do this and be ok sleeping at night.
[/quote]

[color=#a52a2a]TH[/color][color=#a52a2a]AT[/color][color=#000000] is the part of this thread that throws me for a loop. Why would they sell a raffle package to a man if it was meant to be a woman's "closest to the pin" contest?[/color]

If your answer is "to make it a bigger pot", there is no way in hell that he wasn't told that it was for Ladies Only. If he was, indeed informed, wouldn't it have brought more money in, if it was opened to everyone?

Since it was a money raising, charity event, why didn't You buy into it?

Is this a troll? Did I just bite?

[larrybud]

Sounds like there was a closest to the pin "packaged" that covered both men and women, with different winners on different holes.

Charity or not the OP isn't obligated to buy into anything he doesn't want to buy into. He probably already dropped at least $100 on the round.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410818899' post='10122241']
Maybe you get some of that distance but many times to get to the edge you would be shortening the distance between you and the hole by more than just a few inches.[/quote]

Yeah man, worry about theoretical possibility of someone in another group cheating 1" closer, still in the fringe, but overlook the guy who moves his ball closer to the hole by 12"+, puts his name on the closest to the pin marker, and you say nothing when it happens right in front of you.

Good one.

[Break81]

[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1410829155' post='10123247']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410716697' post='10115783']
So a buddy of mine and I played in a charity shotgun tourney and we got paired up with another twosome as our partners. On our 15th hole, there was a closest to the pin and as one of the later groups we were surprised how far away from the pin the marker was stuck in the green.

[color=#A52A2A][b]Well in order to be a participant of the closest to the pin you had to buy in to a raffle package[/b][/color] which I did not do so I wasn't paying close attention to the rules etc. Anyway one of the guys we paired up with hit his ball and was about 1-1/2 feet OUTSIDE of the marker as we approach the green. Somehow when we get to the green he is a foot CLOSER to the pin than the marker. I didn't say anything but was pretty shocked. As we left the green I look back and he had written his name on the marker and moved it to where he claimed his ball stopped.

After the round we have a dinner and prize ceremony and when they announced closest to the pin, the guy gets up and struts up to the front of the room and the tourney director says, "Ummmm, that hole was closest to the pin for the ladies."

BAM!!! Embarrassment and Karma !! The guy had a name that could have been for a man or a lady but watching him walk back to his seat was PRICELESS.

I seriously don't understand people who would do this and be ok sleeping at night.
[/quote]

[color=#A52A2A]TH[/color][color=#A52A2A]AT[/color][color=#000000] is the part of this thread that throws me for a loop. Why would they sell a raffle package to a man if it was meant to be a woman's "closest to the pin" contest?[/color]

If your answer is "to make it a bigger pot", there is no way in hell that he wasn't told that it was for Ladies Only. If he was, indeed informed, wouldn't it have brought more money in, if it was opened to everyone?

Since it was a money raising, charity event, why didn't You buy into it?

Is this a troll? Did I just bite?
[/quote]
Uggghhh - There were 2 closest to the pins - one for men on hole #7 I think and one for the women on hole #16 - So the package was $30 and included closest to the pin and longest drive as well as a handful of raffle tickets.

I bought a $40 package that included raffle tickets and a chance to win a stay and play package in Kauai @ the Price Course. I am not a long hitter (250 ish) so I felt my money was better spent on a different package. Since I was not in on the closest to pin, I really didn't pay attention to what hole was men's or women's as I guess neither did the guy who moved his ball (even though he did get in on the deal) If you must know I spent $140 total for the day plus $30 in gas for the cause so hopefully that explain all the things you don't understand.

[Break81]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410830996' post='10123465']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410818899' post='10122241']
Maybe you get some of that distance but many times to get to the edge you would be shortening the distance between you and the hole by more than just a few inches.[/quote]

Yeah man, worry about theoretical possibility of someone in another group cheating 1" closer, still in the fringe, but overlook the guy who moves his ball closer to the hole by 12"+, puts his name on the closest to the pin marker, and you say nothing when it happens right in front of you.

Good one.
[/quote]
Are you done with your soap box? Sounds like you've cheated a few times.

[Break81]

Wow I am getting a lesson with this thread, don't ever share a story on golfwrx unless you are willing to be judged endlessly.

[misplacedtexan83]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410831885' post='10123611']Wow I am getting a lesson with this thread, don't ever share a story on golfwrx unless you are willing to be judged endlessly.[/quote]

Keep sharing....everyone has integrity and a voice on a computer. However, next time tell the dude Bull$hit and to mark his ball correctly.

[Break81]

[quote name='misplacedtexan83' timestamp='1410832519' post='10123733']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410831885' post='10123611']Wow I am getting a lesson with this thread, don't ever share a story on golfwrx unless you are willing to be judged endlessly.[/quote]

Keep sharing....everyone has integrity and a voice on a computer. However, next time tell the dude Bull$hit and to mark his ball correctly.
[/quote]
If you read the thread, I didn't see him move the ball. He moved it before I got to the green and he and his buddy were already lining up the put. It wasn't until after the ball was holed and I was back to the cart did I look back and see him moving the tag.

yes I could of questioned him at that point but again I stand by my decision on why I didn't. If anyone should have called him out it would have been his buddy in his cart who was with him the entire time. So yeah I would have been starting an argument with not 1 golfer but 2.

[misplacedtexan83]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410832941' post='10123781'][quote name='misplacedtexan83' timestamp='1410832519' post='10123733']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410831885' post='10123611']Wow I am getting a lesson with this thread, don't ever share a story on golfwrx unless you are willing to be judged endlessly.[/quote]

Keep sharing....everyone has integrity and a voice on a computer. However, next time tell the dude Bull$hit and to mark his ball correctly.
[/quote]
If you read the thread, I didn't see him move the ball. He moved it before I got to the green and he and his buddy were already lining up the put. It wasn't until after the ball was holed and I was back to the cart did I look back and see him moving the tag.

yes I could of questioned him at that point but again I stand by my decision on why I didn't. If anyone should have called him out it would have been his buddy in his cart who was with him the entire time. So yeah I would have been starting an argument with not 1 golfer but 2.[/quote]

I read some of it and you got defensive about people telling you what they thought you should of done. So, stand by your decision and others will stand by their opinions. It's a wonderful site to be on but we all take lumps one time or not.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410831662' post='10123561']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410830996' post='10123465']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410818899' post='10122241']
Maybe you get some of that distance but many times to get to the edge you would be shortening the distance between you and the hole by more than just a few inches.[/quote]

Yeah man, worry about theoretical possibility of someone in another group cheating 1" closer, still in the fringe, but overlook the guy who moves his ball closer to the hole by 12"+, puts his name on the closest to the pin marker, and you say nothing when it happens right in front of you.

Good one.
[/quote]
Are you done with your soap box? Sounds like you've cheated a few times.
[/quote]

Not in the least. As you can see, I understand the geometric relationship of how to maintain equidistant points using a chord of variable length and two points on that chord.

Now regale us more about how you are worried about some theoretical cheating you wish to ferret out in cyberspace versus saying anything about the cheating you witnessed right in front of you....

[Break81]

[quote name='misplacedtexan83' timestamp='1410833236' post='10123827']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410832941' post='10123781'][quote name='misplacedtexan83' timestamp='1410832519' post='10123733']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410831885' post='10123611']Wow I am getting a lesson with this thread, don't ever share a story on golfwrx unless you are willing to be judged endlessly.[/quote]

Keep sharing....everyone has integrity and a voice on a computer. However, next time tell the dude Bull$hit and to mark his ball correctly.
[/quote]
If you read the thread, I didn't see him move the ball. He moved it before I got to the green and he and his buddy were already lining up the put. It wasn't until after the ball was holed and I was back to the cart did I look back and see him moving the tag.

yes I could of questioned him at that point but again I stand by my decision on why I didn't. If anyone should have called him out it would have been his buddy in his cart who was with him the entire time. So yeah I would have been starting an argument with not 1 golfer but 2.[/quote]

I read some of it and you got defensive about people telling you what they thought you should of done. So, stand by your decision and others will stand by their opinions. It's a wonderful site to be on but we all take lumps one time or not.
[/quote]
That's fine, people are entitled to their opinions. It's always easy to say what you (not you personally) would have done if it was you.

[Break81]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410833597' post='10123879']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410831662' post='10123561']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1410830996' post='10123465']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410818899' post='10122241']
Maybe you get some of that distance but many times to get to the edge you would be shortening the distance between you and the hole by more than just a few inches.[/quote]

Yeah man, worry about theoretical possibility of someone in another group cheating 1" closer, still in the fringe, but overlook the guy who moves his ball closer to the hole by 12"+, puts his name on the closest to the pin marker, and you say nothing when it happens right in front of you.

Good one.
[/quote]
Are you done with your soap box? Sounds like you've cheated a few times.
[/quote]

Not in the least. As you can see, I understand the geometric relationship of how to maintain equidistant points using a chord of variable length and two points on that chord.

Now regale us more about how you are worried about some theoretical cheating you wish to ferret out in cyberspace versus saying anything about the cheating you witnessed right in front of you....
[/quote]
Dude your graph showed a perfect circle and the 2 points that both were on the circumference of the circle. How would either one of those points be on the fringe? They wouldn't, they would both be on the collar. When is a green ever a perfect circle and when is the pin EXACTLY in the middle? You chart doesn't give any variables for anything. FLAWED!

Make your graph into and oval and what happens to your triangle? X to M would now be a shorter distance then B to M correct?

[misplacedtexan83]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410833669' post='10123889'][quote name='misplacedtexan83' timestamp='1410833236' post='10123827']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410832941' post='10123781'][quote name='misplacedtexan83' timestamp='1410832519' post='10123733']
[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410831885' post='10123611']Wow I am getting a lesson with this thread, don't ever share a story on golfwrx unless you are willing to be judged endlessly.[/quote]

Keep sharing....everyone has integrity and a voice on a computer. However, next time tell the dude Bull$hit and to mark his ball correctly.
[/quote]
If you read the thread, I didn't see him move the ball. He moved it before I got to the green and he and his buddy were already lining up the put. It wasn't until after the ball was holed and I was back to the cart did I look back and see him moving the tag.

yes I could of questioned him at that point but again I stand by my decision on why I didn't. If anyone should have called him out it would have been his buddy in his cart who was with him the entire time. So yeah I would have been starting an argument with not 1 golfer but 2.[/quote]

I read some of it and you got defensive about people telling you what they thought you should of done. So, stand by your decision and others will stand by their opinions. It's a wonderful site to be on but we all take lumps one time or not.
[/quote]
That's fine, people are entitled to their opinions. It's always easy to say what you (not you personally) would have done if it was you.[/quote]

Yes it is. However, we don't share unless we are prepared for different opinions.

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410819170' post='10122261']
Sorry I just wanted to share a story and feel like the thread has been hi-jacked a little.
[/quote]

I think it's rare that a thread doesn't take off on a couple of different tangents. Seems quite often there are two or three different discussions going on within the same thread.

[deadsolid...shank]

OP, try not to take it personally. If you're ok with your decision that's all that matters. But if you put it out there you have to be ready for differing thoughts and opinions

And everyone is going to offer up those opinions.

[Imp]

Can someone please show me in the USGA rules the penalty that applies for any given infraction in a scramble? All I see are Match Play and Stroke Play penalties.

Now in the OP's post and the attempted stealing of the CTP, that was funny... but when you're citing rules for scrambles, they have to be in print to enforce them. No printed rules? It's the wild west.

--kC

[fumanchu1]

So much anger raagggghhhhh. Seriously keyboard warriors take a break. Yes he couldv'e called him out but didn't end of story. I am sure everyone hating on him fornot calling the guy out has been in at least 1 situation in their lives where they should've said something but didn't(whether it be golf, violence, disputes, etc.). You guys bring up integrity but that can't only apply to golf you talk sh*t about the op but I'm sure you'd stay silent if we started talking about the times where you stfu instead of speaking up(myself included).

That being said, it's ok to tell him he should've said something but that's where it should end.

And to the op, yes trolls are everywhere in here so better put on your thick skin if you're gonna post(3rd or 4th post I made trying to be nice and help someone) got me a troll trying to bash me for my high handicap, just let them be or if you like do like me and have fun with their idiotic logic.

No shivan I didn't call you a troll but maybe you know ease up a bit on the guy, you made your point of disapproval, he didn't think it was the thing to do at the time then thats the endof this issue.

ok I love b-bye

[rodanst6]

[quote name='Break81' timestamp='1410722245' post='10116067']
Ok to clarify calling him out was not the time or place. Again this was a casual charity round for a good cause. The closest to the pin prize was something not of much value, plus I work with the tournament director and I would have mentioned it to him to make sure the 2nd name on the marker got something. I didn't want to SOUR the round or the dinner by having an issue / argument for a good cause type of day.

To add to this guy and his lack of rules, he had a laser rangefinder with slope, and since he had said he played in the men's club every week, I asked, "So do you put the plug in or not use the rangefinder during tournament rounds?" He looked at me and said, "oh we don't care about stuff like that." Yeah right buddy... I am sure if you win by 1 stroke, someone cares.


Also in a scramble you get 1 club length from the location your group hits from right? Well for him this means if you are on the fringe, 3 feet from the putting surface you can put that ball on the edge of the fringe and the green thus not having the put through the fringe at all.

Again this was a day to raise money and have fun not to call out a cheater and ruin the day. The person who actually got closest to the pin got her prize and I would have made sure she got something if things didn't blow up in his face.
[/quote]

So why call him out here???? I don't like confrontation but I would hope I would have said something, that is cheating and stealing....... Glad he got his though.