Fourball Rules - Stroke Play

[DaveLeeNC]

Is anyone aware of any rules gotcha's if you are running a handicapped/stroke play event that is kind of a fourball event and just apply fourball rules per the RoG?. The kinda is the fact that the teams are four-person teams and your score is the 2 best of four instead of 1 best of 2?

 

Seems like there might be an issue as you don't have a competitor in the group. But nothing comes to mind.

 

Thanks.

 

dave

[edwjmcgrath]

The obvious gotcha is that there is no marker to witness the round and attest to the accuracy of the card. It's all up to the honesty of the groups.

[Sawgrass]

Ha! As Ed suggests you can never pick up your ball to identify it because there is no one to whom you can offer observation. I guess you can get away with the announcement of a provisional ball since there's a decision that allows you to delay the formal announcement until it's practical (I suppose for you guys, the end of the round).

Just make sure you don't hit anyone's equipment, because they're all your partners!

Sounds like a fun game though, with no problems for honest players -- and no handicap posting issues either (as there are no issues when you play as a single).

[mark m]

I have a question that pertains to this situation in a fourball or 2 of 4 best-ball as well. Rule 4. Say a player bends a shaft not in the course of play - but in anger. Say he slams his bag with another club and doesn't realize that he dented/bent his putter. Then he later uses the putter to hole out and notices on the next green the dented or bent shaft and then realizes what happened. (Or we could say he did notice when leaving the green but as his poor high score was not going to be used for the team score - he did not go back but proceeded to the next hole.)

Is he DQ'd?
Is the team DQ'd?

Seems to be the case if you look at the rule(?)
Just curious. Seems a bit harsh if the other player(s) made a legit score on the hole in the question.
Thanks Gents

[b] PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/#4-3a"]4-3a[/url]:[/b]
[color=red][size=3]
See Penalty Statements for Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/#4-4a"]4-4a[/url] or [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/#b"]b[/url], and Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/#4-4c"]4-4c[/url].[/size][/color][color=#000000][size=3]
[b]Note:[/b] A club is unfit for play if it is substantially damaged, e.g., the shaft is dented, significantly bent or breaks into pieces; the clubhead becomes loose, detached or significantly deformed; or the grip becomes loose. A club is not unfit for play solely because the club’s lie or loft has been altered, or the clubhead is scratched.[/size][/color]
[b] b. Damage Other Than in Normal Course of Play[/b]
[color=#000000][size=3]
If, during a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stipulated-Round"]stipulated round[/url][/i], a player’s club is damaged other than in the normal course of play rendering it non-conforming or changing its playing characteristics, the club must not subsequently be used or replaced during the round.[/size][/color]
[b] PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/#4-3b"]4-3b[/url]:[/b]
[color=red][size=3]
Disqualification.[/size][/color]

[b] 31-7. Disqualification Penalties[/b]

[b] a. Breach by One Partner[/b]
[color=#000000][size=3]
[color=red][b]A [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Side"]side[/url][/i] is disqualified from the competition[/b][/color] if either [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Partner"]partner[/url][/i] incurs a penalty of disqualification under any of the following:[/size][/color][list]
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-01/#1-3"]1-3[/url] Agreement to Waive Rules
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-03/#3-4"]3-4[/url] Refusal to Comply with a Rule
[*][b]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-04/#4"]4[/url] Clubs[/b]
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-05/#5-1"]5-1[/url] or [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-05/#5-2"]5-2[/url] The Ball
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-06/#6-2b"]6-2b[/url] Handicap
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-06/#6-4"]6-4[/url] Caddie
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-06/#6-6b"]6-6b[/url] Signing and Returning Score Card
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-06/#6-6d"]6-6d[/url] Wrong Score for Hole
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-06/#6-7"]6-7[/url] Undue Delay; Slow Play
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-07/#7-1"]7-1[/url] Practice Before or Between Rounds
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-10/#10-2c"]10-2c[/url] Sides Agree to Play Out of Turn
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-11/#11-1"]11-1[/url] Teeing
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-14/#14-3"]14-3[/url] Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equipment
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-22/#22-1"]22-1[/url] Ball Assisting Play
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-31/#31-3"]31-3[/url] Gross Scores to Count Not Individually Identifiable
[*]Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-33/#33-7"]33-7[/url] Disqualification Penalty Imposed by Committee
[/list]

[KevCarter]

Nice find Mark!

[DaveLeeNC]

Thanks for all the quality comments.

I do have a question regarding 'the marker'. The marker can be someone 'designated by the committee'. Is there something/somewhere buried in some decision that precludes this being a partner?

Thanks again.

dave

[mark m]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1412166196' post='10216919']
Thanks for all the quality comments.

I do have a question regarding 'the marker'. The marker can be someone 'designated by the committee'. Is there something/somewhere buried in some decision that precludes this being a partner?

Thanks again.

dave
[/quote]

Dave: found this in the definitions:

[b]Marker[/b]

[color=#000000][size=3]A “[/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Marker"]marker[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3]’’ is one who is appointed by the [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] to record a [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitor’s[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] score in stroke play. He may be a [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Fellow-Competitor"]fellow-competitor[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3]. He is not a [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Referee"]referee[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3].[/size][/color]

[size=4][b]Fellow Competitor [/b][/size]
[color=#000000][size=3]See “[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]Competitor[/url].[/i]’’[/size][/color]

[size=4][color=#000000][b]Competitor[/b][/color][/size]

[color=#000000][size=3]A “[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitor[/url][/i]’’ is a player in a stroke-play competition. A “[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Fellow-Competitor"]fellow-competitor[/url][/i]’’ is any person with whom the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitor[/url][/i]plays. Neither is [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Partner"]partner[/url][/i] of the other.[/size][/color]

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1412166992' post='10216979']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1412166196' post='10216919']
Thanks for all the quality comments.

I do have a question regarding 'the marker'. The marker can be someone 'designated by the committee'. Is there something/somewhere buried in some decision that precludes this being a partner?

Thanks again.

dave
[/quote]

Dave: found this in the definitions:

[b]Marker[/b]

[color=#000000][size=3]A “[/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Marker"]marker[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3]’’ is one who is appointed by the [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] to record a [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitor’s[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] score in stroke play. He may be a [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Fellow-Competitor"]fellow-competitor[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3]. He is not a [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Referee"]referee[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3].[/size][/color]

[size=4][b]Fellow Competitor [/b][/size]
[color=#000000][size=3]See “[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]Competitor[/url].[/i]’’[/size][/color]

[size=4][color=#000000][b]Competitor[/b][/color][/size]

[color=#000000][size=3]A “[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitor[/url][/i]’’ is a player in a stroke-play competition. A “[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Fellow-Competitor"]fellow-competitor[/url][/i]’’ is any person with whom the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitor[/url][/i]plays. Neither is [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Partner"]partner[/url][/i] of the other.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Thanks, Mark. I saw that stuff but I believe that all of the team are 'partner's' in this cased. So in my mind the question is still open/ambiguous, although I would think that it would have come up before.

dave

[xxjonesyxx]

We play that format quite often in the UK, it is called an amam.

Neil

[Cancun]

Hi Dave:

When you want to answer questions about the Rules of Golf, one of the basic things to know is the [b]format of play[/b]. With that in mind, we should be able to study any given situation and find the ruling.

You’re asking about a format that is not defined in the Rules of Golf. You mention a four-ball stroke play format, which is not played in teams of four (not according to the definitions). I believe the official answer is that there’s no way to issue an opinion since the format is not within the Rules of Golf.

In other words: the Rules apply to certain specific formats. You’ll be playing a different game, so the Rules simply don’t apply. It’s just like the “scramble” format: you can play with any Rules you want.

I know this would change a little bit your format but I want to make a suggestion, if I may:

Why don’t you adapt your format to the Rules of Golf? If you have teams A and B, for example, you can split the teams and have a regular stroke play between players A1 and A2 playing with B1 and B2, while A3 and A4 play with B3 and B4. Once the round is finished you can determine the best 2 out of 4 scores for each team… If you want to add something to it you could have those groups playing the “real” four-ball format, so the best score of each couple would be the one to count. Those two players would play as partners with all the communication allowed between them…

Anyway, I hope you have fun!

Have a good day

[rogolf]

[quote name='Cancun' timestamp='1412177060' post='10217743']
Hi Dave:

When you want to answer questions about the Rules of Golf, one of the basic things to know is the [b]format of play[/b]. With that in mind, we should be able to study any given situation and find the ruling.

You’re asking about a format that is not defined in the Rules of Golf. You mention a four-ball stroke play format, which is not played in teams of four (not according to the definitions). I believe the official answer is that there’s no way to issue an opinion since the format is not within the Rules of Golf.

In other words: the Rules apply to certain specific formats. You’ll be playing a different game, so the Rules simply don’t apply. It’s just like the “scramble” format: you can play with any Rules you want.

I know this would change a little bit your format but I want to make a suggestion, if I may:

Why don’t you adapt your format to the Rules of Golf? If you have teams A and B, for example, you can split the teams and have a regular stroke play between players A1 and A2 playing with B1 and B2, while A3 and A4 play with B3 and B4. Once the round is finished you can determine the best 2 out of 4 scores for each team… If you want to add something to it you could have those groups playing the “real” four-ball format, so the best score of each couple would be the one to count. Those two players would play as partners with all the communication allowed between them…

Anyway, I hope you have fun!

Have a good day
[/quote]

I agree that the format described doesn't fit into those defined by the Rules of golf. However, that doesn't mean that the Committee can't modify certain Rules to permit the competition to be played. We play it, or a variation, nearly every day we play and everyone who plays is comfortable that the competition is played fairly and within its Rules. We give each other advice freely, and no group has any concern with another group's scoring.

[Cancun]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1412177354' post='10217769']

I agree that the format described doesn't fit into those defined by the Rules of golf. However, that doesn't mean that the Committee can't modify certain Rules to permit the competition to be played. We play it, or a variation, nearly every day we play and everyone who plays is comfortable that the competition is played fairly and within its Rules. We give each other advice freely, and no group has any concern with another group's scoring.
[/quote]

I certainly agree with you Rogolf.

My answer was just a way to say that “there’s no way to give an answer [u]based in the Rules of Golf[/u]”. I’m sure the USGA or the R&A would not answer a question for such a format, just because it’s not an official format. Actually it’s clear that Dave knows the difference between his format and the four-ball format described in the Rules (it’s clear from his question).

On the other hand, I can see that the format seems like a fun round. I know Dave and his Committee can organize that competition with any Rules they consider best, playing “as close to the Rules of Golf” as possible for everything else. Somehow that’s why I finished saying “[b]Anyway[/b], I hope you have fun”. [i]Anyway[/i], meaning exactly that: anyway they choose to set their format.

There was a recent thread where someone said something like “[i]I was just being pedantic[/i]”. In this case I’m just trying to give Dave the answer based in the Rules, knowing that it may sound a little pedantic. That’s not my intention and I apologize for that, but I do believe it’s the correct answer.

Again Dave: I hope you have a great round, regardless of the format you choose to play

Have a good day gentlemen!

[Sawgrass]

One thing I'd miss when playing with four partners is that no one is free to accidentally move your ball while searching. That freedom to help your f/c or opponent is a nicety in the Rules I've always respected and appreciated.

[edwjmcgrath]

This is a fun format and we play it all the time at my club with no problems.

A variant that is even more challenging is to count the best 3 balls on the par 3's, best 2 on the par 4's, and the single best ball on the par 5's. Par is 136.

[mark m]

[quote name='edwjmcgrath' timestamp='1412181689' post='10218219']
This is a fun format and we play it all the time at my club with no problems.

A variant that is even more challenging is to count the best 3 balls on the par 3's, best 2 on the par 4's, and the single best ball on the par 5's. Par is 136.
[/quote]

My club has made the change to this as well. Net scores are used and we draw for teams - ABCD. The previous format was called a "Galveston" (I don't know why) and was more pressure - all 4 balls count on the par 3's, 3 of 4 on the par 4's, and 2 of 4 on the 5's. I think we have used both 90% and 100% handicap allowance over the years. As usual for a net tournament, you need your stroke brothers (high handicaps) to come through to win. I do my best to cheer them on!

[Newby]

I play this format frequently.
Two suggestions.
Be sure everyone understands, the rule re not leaving a ball on the green near the hole, in order to assist a partner who is playing from off the green.
Use stableford scoring.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1412191166' post='10219081']
I play this format frequently.
Two suggestions.
Be sure everyone understands, the rule re not leaving a ball on the green near the hole, in order to assist a partner who is playing from off the green.
Use stableford scoring.
[/quote]

Newby - I learned LONG ago to never ignore what you say. So I have a question.

Why the statement "Use Stableford Scoring"? We do that on a regular basis, but not exclusively.

Thanks.

dave

[Augster]

Okay. As said above, 2 of 4 isn't an "approved" form of play. BUT, we can make it so.

The 4 players on the "team" are not partners. They are 4 dudes that are just out playing their own ball, stroke play style. It is only for the comp, back in the clubhouse, that the 4 players are grouped as a "team". For the on-course stuff, this "team" designation is irrelevant.

The 4 players are out to play a handicapped round, not a tournament round. In a handicapped round, you really can't DQ yourself. So once two players have lower scores than the other two in the "group", the two with the higher scores can pick up if they wish. These will fall under holes not finished, which will be most likely score, or if they play from a wrong place or something else outside the Rules, they will write down par plus handicap. Though if they write down par plus handicap, they shouldn't be considered for the 2 of 4 for that hole as they didn't play by the Rules.

The only sticking point in this scenario is advice. Player's can't give each other advice. BUT, the committee could appoint one player in each group to be the "captain" and he could give advice to everyone on the "team". So if player D is appointed captain, he can give advice to player A and player C, but A can't give advice to C or D.

So you can have a perfectly legitimate best 2 of 4 competition but you have to go easy on the advice, or appoint 1 player to be the "captain" to give all advice. That's my shot at it anyway.

[Newby]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1412197183' post='10219569']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1412191166' post='10219081']
I play this format frequently.
Two suggestions.
Be sure everyone understands, the rule re not leaving a ball on the green near the hole, in order to assist a partner who is playing from off the green.
Use stableford scoring.
[/quote]

Newby - I learned LONG ago to never ignore what you say. So I have a question.

Why the statement "Use Stableford Scoring"? We do that on a regular basis, but not exclusively.

Thanks.

dave
[/quote]

Good question. It helps with the DQ of a player for the hole not the round. eg A lot of holes will not be completed by players who cannot contribute a score.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1412230370' post='10222321']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1412197183' post='10219569']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1412191166' post='10219081']
I play this format frequently.
Two suggestions.
Be sure everyone understands, the rule re not leaving a ball on the green near the hole, in order to assist a partner who is playing from off the green.
Use stableford scoring.
[/quote]

Newby - I learned LONG ago to never ignore what you say. So I have a question.

Why the statement "Use Stableford Scoring"? We do that on a regular basis, but not exclusively.

Thanks.

dave
[/quote]

Good question. It helps with the DQ of a player for the hole not the round. eg A lot of holes will not be completed by players who cannot contribute a score.
[/quote]

Thanks - Newby. Makes perfect sense. And see my response to Augster's response (next) - it is related.

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1412211914' post='10220807']
Okay. As said above, 2 of 4 isn't an "approved" form of play. BUT, we can make it so.

The 4 players on the "team" are not partners. They are 4 dudes that are just out playing their own ball, stroke play style. It is only for the comp, back in the clubhouse, that the 4 players are grouped as a "team". For the on-course stuff, this "team" designation is irrelevant.

The 4 players are out to play a handicapped round, not a tournament round. In a handicapped round, you really can't DQ yourself. So once two players have lower scores than the other two in the "group", the two with the higher scores can pick up if they wish. These will fall under holes not finished, which will be most likely score, or if they play from a wrong place or something else outside the Rules, they will write down par plus handicap. Though if they write down par plus handicap, they shouldn't be considered for the 2 of 4 for that hole as they didn't play by the Rules.

The only sticking point in this scenario is advice. Player's can't give each other advice. BUT, the committee could appoint one player in each group to be the "captain" and he could give advice to everyone on the "team". So if player D is appointed captain, he can give advice to player A and player C, but A can't give advice to C or D.

So you can have a perfectly legitimate best 2 of 4 competition but you have to go easy on the advice, or appoint 1 player to be the "captain" to give all advice. That's my shot at it anyway.
[/quote]

Interesting response. And the way you characterized what we do is 'spot on' (to borrow a Brit term). Regarding this issue (and others related) this is very similar to 'the position' that I ended up taking. My view has been that what we do in 'regular weekly play' is to separate the Rules of Golf from 'outcomes'. The Rules of Golf part (heavily impacted by USGA handicap considerations) is your posted score. 'Outcomes' is who is the winner. And we do not necessarily do 'outcomes' by the Rules of Golf.

A proposal (and it isn't unreasonable or ...) has been made to 'strictly follow fourball rules' for our weekly games. On the surface that seems reasonable and following the rules better than we do is hardly improper. But in my mind there are issues here and the lack of a proper marker is probably #1 in my mind at the moment.

Anyway - thanks to all for the (as usual) helpful input.

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1412248353' post='10222697']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1412230370' post='10222321']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1412197183' post='10219569']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1412191166' post='10219081']
I play this format frequently.
Two suggestions.
Be sure everyone understands, the rule re not leaving a ball on the green near the hole, in order to assist a partner who is playing from off the green.
Use stableford scoring.
[/quote]

Newby - I learned LONG ago to never ignore what you say. So I have a question.

Why the statement "Use Stableford Scoring"? We do that on a regular basis, but not exclusively.

Thanks.

dave
[/quote]

Good question. It helps with the DQ of a player for the hole not the round. eg A lot of holes will not be completed by players who cannot contribute a score.
[/quote]

Thanks - Newby. Makes perfect sense. And see my response to Augster's response (next) - it is related.

dave
[/quote]

Rather than edit my earlier response (which may have already been emailed) I am going to post this separately. It is actually two questions.

1) Is there a requirement somewhere that a 'ball that won't count toward the team score' complete the hole? I don't know where that requirement is and in 'real fourball' I am pretty sure it doesn't exist.

2) Related - 31-3 requires that the score to count be individually indentifiable. Does that mean that it must just simply be recorded or does this require that the team scorecard directly indicate "we are using THIS score"? Interestingly this is a big deal to us, but not the only one in this area.

Thanks.

dave

[mark m]

dave,

How are the teams formed? Is it play with your friends, or random draw of some kind?

Comments:

I think it would be best to have some ground rules and hope for compliance (if players can form there own teams). Something like "try hard on each hole. Do do not pick-up or quit playing until you have reached your ESC maximum (or stableford point max) even if the players score will not be used in the team score competition." If a player does not hole out record an X next to the score. Every player should have a score recorded on each hole for handicap purposes. Spirit of the game and so on. Players should not be allowed to automatically claim a max ESC score when they pick up. Sometimes the "most likely score" is lower. A couple of shots per round can really matter in handicap calculations.

[mark m]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1412255502' post='10223171']
dave,

How are the teams formed? Is it play with your friends, or random draw of some kind?

Comments:

I think it would be best to have some ground rules and hope for compliance (if players can form there own teams). Something like "try hard on each hole. Do do not pick-up or quit playing until you have reached your ESC maximum (or stableford point max) even if the players score will not be used in the team score competition." If a player does not hole out record an X next to the score. Every player should have a score recorded on each hole for handicap purposes. Spirit of the game and so on. Players should not be allowed to automatically claim a max ESC score when they pick up. Sometimes the "most likely score" is lower. A couple of shots per round can really matter in handicap calculations.
[/quote]

BTW: I played in our state fourball in August and the association posted 'T' scores for both rounds. They asked us to record a score for each hole even if we did not finish the hole. I did not finish a few holes and gave our FC's my most likely score. (Obviously the score used on the hole by the team needs to be attributed to the correct player and so on.) We always take our time after to confirm the scores are correct before signing the card.

[xxjonesyxx]

As i said above we play quite a lot of this format in the UK,

I have always, and any team and event I have played in and organizer, taken the view that as you are partners but of 4, advice is fine.

You normally play it of 3/4s handicap.

Its easier to keep track with stableford scores, only the two people hows scores on a particular hole count, have their scores marked on the card. (But as it would be an ineligible for comp for hcping purposes in congu I guess you could mark them all) but it certainly speeds up play if people pick up when the cant better teammates scores.

Neil

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1412255502' post='10223171']
dave,

How are the teams formed? Is it play with your friends, or random draw of some kind?

Comments:

I think it would be best to have some ground rules and hope for compliance (if players can form there own teams). Something like "try hard on each hole. Do do not pick-up or quit playing until you have reached your ESC maximum (or stableford point max) even if the players score will not be used in the team score competition." If a player does not hole out record an X next to the score. Every player should have a score recorded on each hole for handicap purposes. Spirit of the game and so on. Players should not be allowed to automatically claim a max ESC score when they pick up. Sometimes the "most likely score" is lower. A couple of shots per round can really matter in handicap calculations.
[/quote]

Mark, for us in regular/weekly play the teams are a mix. You can sign up as a single, twosome, threesome, or foursome. And this certainly does bring with it 'the honesty risk'. But this format best matches the overall purposes of the organization. 'The Committee' will often combine incomplete groups and/or incomplete groups are encouraged to combine for themselves.

And we do have a trade-off between finishing holes and pace of play. We are a VERY old organization (average age well over 70). Getting folks to understand the difference between 'most likely score' vs. ESC (and when each applies) is a surprisingly regular battle.

dave

[mark m]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1412268163' post='10224447']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1412255502' post='10223171']
dave,

How are the teams formed? Is it play with your friends, or random draw of some kind?

Comments:

I think it would be best to have some ground rules and hope for compliance (if players can form there own teams). Something like "try hard on each hole. Do do not pick-up or quit playing until you have reached your ESC maximum (or stableford point max) even if the players score will not be used in the team score competition." If a player does not hole out record an X next to the score. Every player should have a score recorded on each hole for handicap purposes. Spirit of the game and so on. Players should not be allowed to automatically claim a max ESC score when they pick up. Sometimes the "most likely score" is lower. A couple of shots per round can really matter in handicap calculations.
[/quote]

Mark, for us in regular/weekly play the teams are a mix. You can sign up as a single, twosome, threesome, or foursome. And this certainly does bring with it 'the honesty risk'. But this format best matches the overall purposes of the organization. 'The Committee' will often combine incomplete groups and/or incomplete groups are encouraged to combine for themselves.

And we do have a trade-off between finishing holes and pace of play. We are a VERY old organization (average age well over 70). Getting folks to understand the difference between 'most likely score' vs. ESC (and when each applies) is a surprisingly regular battle.

dave
[/quote]

Hi dave,

I hear you there! I have fought and lost a few of those battles myself. Section 3-5 of the handicap manual is another one which generates strong feelings as many do not understand (or refuse to consider) how it works.

Being able to play with your friends is important when you consider how long a round takes. My club does have a few ABCD draw tournaments which helps to meet the other guys in the club and so on. But you cannot do it all the time or participation would suffer. Two-man partner tournaments can also accomplish this goal.

Anyway - keep trying and best of luck.
Mark

[Newby]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1412249502' post='10222757']
1) Is there a requirement somewhere that a 'ball that won't count toward the team score' complete the hole? I don't know where that requirement is and in 'real fourball' I am pretty sure it doesn't exist.

2) Related - 31-3 requires that the score to count be individually indentifiable. Does that mean that it must just simply be recorded or does this require that the team scorecard directly indicate "we are using THIS score"? Interestingly this is a big deal to us, but not the only one in this area.

Thanks.

dave
[/quote]
Dave

I think the USGA requirement to record all scores as opposed to the CONGU and EGA 'singles competitions only' is confusing the issue.

We only record the gross (and to help the organiser the points) that actually count on the hole against the individual player and then the total points for the hole. Certainly in a 'proper' four ball only the counting score is required but assigned to the relevant player. We do not distinguish between a score which is not good enough to count and an uncompleted hole.

However, a player may want to have a record of his own score, so that will be put on the card but only as a gross score.

PS I'm not sure I have answered your questions

[QEight]

[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1412264416' post='10224077']
As i said above we play quite a lot of this format in the UK,

I have always, and any team and event I have played in and organizer, taken the view that as you are partners but of 4, advice is fine.

You normally play it of 3/4s handicap.

Its easier to keep track with stableford scores, only the two people hows scores on a particular hole count, have their scores marked on the card.
[/quote]

Interesting discussion as we will be playing this weekend a competition as foursome 3/4s handicap but with three scores counting out of four. Never played such before.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1412269761' post='10224581']


However, a player may want to have a record of his own score, so that will be put on the card but only as a gross score.

PS I'm not sure I have answered your questions
[/quote]

I was wondering if there is any requirement for the team to identify the score or scores to be used. That is a possible interpretation of the applicable rule, but is probably not a real requirement.

dave