Calling All Putting Gurus: Rory vs Tiger

[fishstix94]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1412301481' post='10227381'][quote name='fishstix94' timestamp='1412300099' post='10227259']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1412276189' post='10225161'][quote name='fishstix94' timestamp='1412268474' post='10224463']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1412261971' post='10223825']Rory is a pure Triangle/Shoulder Girdle Rock style putter. TIger is a blend of Shoulder Girdle Rock and Arm Flow style putter, except on very short putts, where he keeps upper arms connected to his torso more. (At least Tiger when he was winning everything, I know he changed some elements of his putting stroke under Foley.)

Triangle method is superior for Line Control due to absence of face angle rotation independent of path, ie better for short putts. Arms method with a bit of hinge angle wrist "release" (most of which happens well after impact, not before) is superior for touch/distance control, ie better for long putts.[/quote]
Great explanation! So what method do you recommend?
[/quote]

Triangle is the preferred stroke type, but with a firmer and less flinch-prone grip for super short putts of around 10 feet or less, conventional grip and lighter pressure for medium and long putts.

Adding some Arm Flow is somewhat instinctive when you get really long, outside 65-75 feet and is achieved by softening the Triangle pressure a bit.[/quote]
So can you give me a brief overview of what the triangle method is? This is all new to me.
[/quote]

Triangle is shoulder girdle as base, arms as two sides. In Putting, you set the two elbow angles - either straight or bent to about 30-45 degrees - and then add the sideways arm pressure so that the whole thing becomes "one firm unit". When the shoulder girdle rocks vertically, the arms/elbows are moved as a unit. There is no slack in the system. Hands hold on as clamps at the apex of the Triangle and thus Triangle moves the club. No wrist action except for very long putts, where a tiny amount of wrist hinging on backstroke and un-hinging a bit right before impact, will speed up the clubhead.[/quote]
Interesting stuff. This sounds like Stockton, as far as rocking the shoulders (if I understand what you are saying). I have always been a fan of the utely method which promotes for of a turn around your spine rather than rocking your shoulders. What are your thoughts on this?

[dornstar]

Man, I used Rory's method today and was putting lights out. It puts such a good roll on the ball. I think it might be my new putting stroke.

Slight forward press and minuscule hinge on the way back so I feel as though the shaft is pointing at the left edge of my torso and I just hold it there as a make the forward stroke. Almost a small version of the punisher drill.

[Happyday_J]

love this thread.

I'd like to add that tiger didnt always putt in this manner. He has mentioned how great of a putter he was in college, (I think it was in his book: How I play golf). Anyways here is a video of him in college that shows tiger with a much different release than now, and it looks very similar to rory's.

Couldn't attach the video, so I took screen shots of it.
[attachment=2442947:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #1.png]
[attachment=2442949:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #2.png]
[attachment=2442951:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #3.png]
[attachment=2442953:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #4.png]
[attachment=2442955:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #5.png]

[Dave D]

hard to believe anyone putting better under pressure than tiger in the early 2000s

[Jim Waldron]

The weird thing about putting is that so many different ways of stroking it have been proven to work. The only way to know for sure is to try various methods and see what works for you. What I teach in our Putting Boot Camps is the style that probably 95% of pros and top amateurs use today, since that is one that has a really good track record of success, and that most students are already using.


And that style does not feature chest rotation, except for a tiny bit on very long putts. Not sure if Utley actually teaches chest rotation, but he does teach the "gate" method of putterhead path. That can be from upper arm rotation and/or chest rotation. I teach that if you do the Triangle rock in the vertical plane correctly, then the path is straight line for about 5 inches on the backstroke, and then if the stroke is longer than that, will make a slight arc to the inside. That reverses on the through stroke. So path is straight line for 5 inches on both sides of the ball and and arc on the ends. Which means short putts of around 6 feet or less, there is no arc, and any thing longer there is an arc on the ends. This will only happen if you setup properly, with a putter and lie angle that fits your correct posture and distance from the ball, with slightly arched wrists and hands that are set directly under your shoulder girdle. With this path concept, there is zero path manipulation, you never ever practice path. It is always only a result of proper setup, grip and shoulder rock motion.

My basic putting philosophy is that you putt on a continuum, with Line Control on one end, and Distance Control on the other. Super long putts are mostly about distance control and super shorts are mostly about line control, so you use two different grips, with more slack in the Triangle and lighter pressure for long putts, where you need more touch for distance, and no slack in the Triangle and a firmer grip pressure for short putts, where line control is much more important. Medium putts are in the middle of the continuum.

Face angle control (line control) is a result of proper grip and grip pressure, and a structured Triangle, so that the arm and grip pressure you set at Address is maintained throughout the stroke,k ie no changes. Changing the grip and/or arm pressure is extremely common.

Distance control is a learned behavior that becomes instinctive with practice, mainly achieved through consistent Tempo on all putts, and consistent Rhythm, or adding between 10-20% putterhead speed on the forward stroke (for most putts). Focusing the mind in Feel Channel on the hands is how you sense the length of stroke and especially the speed of forward stroke, which is main factor in distance.

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1412347243' post='10229415']
The weird thing about putting is that so many different ways of stroking it have been proven to work. The only way to know for sure is to try various methods and see what works for you. What I teach in our Putting Boot Camps is the style that probably 95% of pros and top amateurs use today, since that is one that has a really good track record of success, and that most students are already using.


And that style does not feature chest rotation, except for a tiny bit on very long putts. Not sure if Utley actually teaches chest rotation, but he does teach the "gate" method of putterhead path. That can be from upper arm rotation and/or chest rotation. I teach that if you do the Triangle rock in the vertical plane correctly, then the path is straight line for about 5 inches on the backstroke, and then if the stroke is longer than that, will make a slight arc to the inside. That reverses on the through stroke. So path is straight line for 5 inches on both sides of the ball and and arc on the ends. Which means short putts of around 6 feet or less, there is no arc, and any thing longer there is an arc on the ends. This will only happen if you setup properly, with a putter and lie angle that fits your correct posture and distance from the ball, with slightly arched wrists and hands that are set directly under your shoulder girdle. With this path concept, there is zero path manipulation, you never ever practice path. It is always only a result of proper setup, grip and shoulder rock motion.

My basic putting philosophy is that you putt on a continuum, with Line Control on one end, and Distance Control on the other. Super long putts are mostly about distance control and super shorts are mostly about line control, so you use two different grips, with more slack in the Triangle and lighter pressure for long putts, where you need more touch for distance, and no slack in the Triangle and a firmer grip pressure for short putts, where line control is much more important. Medium putts are in the middle of the continuum.

Face angle control (line control) is a result of proper grip and grip pressure, and a structured Triangle, so that the arm and grip pressure you set at Address is maintained throughout the stroke,k ie no changes. Changing the grip and/or arm pressure is extremely common.

Distance control is a learned behavior that becomes instinctive with practice, mainly achieved through consistent Tempo on all putts, and consistent Rhythm, or adding between 10-20% putterhead speed on the forward stroke (for most putts). Focusing the mind in Feel Channel on the hands is how you sense the length of stroke and especially the speed of forward stroke, which is main factor in distance.
[/quote]interesting to hear such an in depth analysis

I believe that 85% of putting is mental with a few basic fundamentals like head still and follow through etc

[pappaf2]

I didn't go through Jim's putting bootcamp so I don't know all the ins and outs but I can say that having inward arm pressure (triangle pressure) was the single best thing to ever happen to my putting. It allows the shoulder girdle and arm triangle to function as one unit making it much easier to return the putter face square to the ball and line.

[Mike_C]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412239702' post='10222501']
I never really noticed Rory's forward press before taking the club away until now...





The fulcrum point seems really far forward. Most pros that I've seen are just slightly forward of their sternum similar to a belly putter. Rory almost looks like he could putt with an alignment rod running up the shaft like the "punisher drill" or sort of a slight hinge and hold stroke. It's definitely different, but it works for him.


Tiger
[/quote]

I used to putt that way, I don't anymore. I used to feel the fulcrum of my putting stroke was my left shoulder. I putted great like that for years, then one day, I just lost the feel for it. I probably am much more traditional now. After watching Rory this past year, I have experimented with my old technique, still feels a bit off, I wish I could putt like that again....

[dornstar]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412303408' post='10227551']
Man, I used Rory's method today and was putting lights out. It puts such a good roll on the ball. I think it might be my new putting stroke.

Slight forward press and minuscule hinge on the way back so I feel as though the shaft is pointing at the left edge of my torso and I just hold it there as a make the forward stroke. Almost a small version of the punisher drill.
[/quote]
Today was day 2 of the "Rory stroke" and it's 2 days in a row that I was lights out with the putter. Using the line on the ball, that thing is rolling perfectly end over end almost every single time. I'm not one to hop from method to method, but at this point, I just can pass up making this change. It feels good and the results are there. I just have to get use to the speed now as the ball has less backswing with this method and seems to roll a little more.

[just win]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412383071' post='10232179']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412303408' post='10227551']
Man, I used Rory's method today and was putting lights out. It puts such a good roll on the ball. I think it might be my new putting stroke.

Slight forward press and minuscule hinge on the way back so I feel as though the shaft is pointing at the left edge of my torso and I just hold it there as a make the forward stroke. Almost a small version of the punisher drill.
[/quote]
Today was day 2 of the "Rory stroke" and it's 2 days in a row that I was lights out with the putter. Using the line on the ball, that thing is rolling perfectly end over end almost every single time. I'm not one to hop from method to method, but at this point, I just can pass up making this change. It feels good and the results are there. I just have to get use to the speed now as the ball has less backswing with this method and seems to roll a little more.
[/quote]

I experienced a little more roll out as well when using this method and believe it is because I am putting a "purer roll" on the ball.

[Hawkeye77]

I don't doubt anything Jim says at all.

Interestingly, I find making sure my grip pressure is on the lighter side helps me a lot with short putts vs. gripping it a little more firmly.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1412388516' post='10232661']
I don't doubt anything Jim says at all.

Interestingly, I find making sure my grip pressure is on the lighter side helps me a lot with short putts vs. gripping it a little more firmly.
[/quote]

This is why you have to find what works for you. In general, light pressure may lead to wrist flip or forearm roll. But super light may actually create the opposite effect to that.

[dornstar]

[quote name='just win' timestamp='1412386913' post='10232535']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412383071' post='10232179']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1412303408' post='10227551']
Man, I used Rory's method today and was putting lights out. It puts such a good roll on the ball. I think it might be my new putting stroke.

Slight forward press and minuscule hinge on the way back so I feel as though the shaft is pointing at the left edge of my torso and I just hold it there as a make the forward stroke. Almost a small version of the punisher drill.
[/quote]
Today was day 2 of the "Rory stroke" and it's 2 days in a row that I was lights out with the putter. Using the line on the ball, that thing is rolling perfectly end over end almost every single time. I'm not one to hop from method to method, but at this point, I just can pass up making this change. It feels good and the results are there. I just have to get use to the speed now as the ball has less backswing with this method and seems to roll a little more.
[/quote]

I experienced a little more roll out as well when using this method and believe it is because I am putting a "purer roll" on the ball.
[/quote]
I agree 100%.

Honestly, I haven't seen the ball roll this pure in a long time and I consider myself a pretty good putter.

[A.G.Blade]

Great topic, can't be argued that players putt better right after a trip to Stockton. Of topic, but what's the punisher Drill?

[dornstar]

This video explains it.

http://youtu.be/QUrOTXGQXbI

The shaft doesn't lean that far forward in the actual putting stroke, but it's a similar feel.

[Hawkeye77]

Rory 6 under through 9 at St. Andrews - been a good morning to see that putting stroke on display.

[fishstix94]

[quote name='Happyday_J' timestamp='1412323009' post='10228415']
love this thread.

I'd like to add that tiger didnt always putt in this manner. He has mentioned how great of a putter he was in college, (I think it was in his book: How I play golf). Anyways here is a video of him in college that shows tiger with a much different release than now, and it looks very similar to rory's.

Couldn't attach the video, so I took screen shots of it.
[attachment=2442947:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #1.png]
[attachment=2442949:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #2.png]
[attachment=2442951:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #3.png]
[attachment=2442953:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #4.png]
[attachment=2442955:Tiger 1995 Putting Stroke #5.png]
[/quote]
Wow great find!!

[fishstix94]

I think my method would be considered a gated method with a firm right wrist.

[mws92]

Very cool thread!

Rory Putting style (Dave Stockton) - hitting putts with mainly the left hand as the controlling feature. To note about this stroke, the grip must travel upward through impact the help square the blade (it's the exact same thing as the Chris Como graph that Andrew Rice retweeted a while ago about how the wedge grip travels through impact -- upward). So it's not a true block stroke as there is still face rotation.

Some people like this stroke as it creates "torque" by the left hand (almost like Kuchar style) which "locks" the lead wrist in place and you don't get twitchy. Practice with lead hand only to get this stroke.

Tiger's Best Putting style (2000s) - hitting "high hooks" by releasing the toe. More pendulum style and can be trained with a belly putter built to the same lie angle as your current putter or putting with your trail hand only and feeling like you are hitting a topspin tennis shot.


I try to putt more like Tiger's style and to be honest I use a super strong left hand grip (RH putter) but forward shaft lean and try to create a cup in my left wrist to create a "locked" feeling. It's not quite as extreme as a Zach Johnson but it has really helped me putt.

[rbhan12]

I'm no putting expert, but i have a thought I think is worth discussing, or at least someone telling me I'm 100% wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about, LOL.

Tiger and Rory clearly have different strokes, as shown on video and in the photos here. That being said, many ways to skin a cat, and putting is about getting the ball to go straight. I would bet that if we were able to have Tiger and Rory both on SAM Putt Lab, and have them hit 100 putts, they would have pretty much identical results. I think we would see Tiger and Rory would both get the ball to leave the face perfectly straight 100 times.

I think the biggest difference in their putting is the line they choose and the speed they roll the ball. In a perfect experiment, if we could get both of these guys to have a sloped putt, and measure how far right or left they start the ball and what speed they roll it, we would see something different.

So, what do you putting experts think of my crazy theory?

[kchase]

'
Z

[GeoffDickson]

[quote name='pappaf2' timestamp='1412358232' post='10230485']
I didn't go through Jim's putting bootcamp so I don't know all the ins and outs but I can say that having inward arm pressure (triangle pressure) was the single best thing to ever happen to my putting. It allows the shoulder girdle and arm triangle to function as one unit making it much easier to return the putter face square to the ball and line.
[/quote]
This inward pressure, kind of like pushing the palms together?

[dornstar]

Well, I played my first round today after practicing the last few days with the "Rory stroke" and it didn't go too well. It was kind of surprising because I felt really good warming up before the round, but on the course, I just couldn't get my distance control dialed in.

[tmcnulty30]

Your golf swing and putting stroke are weirdly enough almost spitting images of each other. Someone who rotates the face a lot in there full swim typically does the same in the putting stroke as well. I think tiger is historically a much better putter mainly based on consistency. Not to take away from Rory but he is known for missing putts inside 7 feet

[Dave D]

[quote name='tmcnulty30' timestamp='1412554545' post='10240643']
Your golf swing and putting stroke are weirdly enough almost spitting images of each other. Someone who rotates the face a lot in there full swim typically does the same in the putting stroke as well. I think tiger is historically a much better putter mainly based on consistency. Not to take away from Rory but he is known for missing putts inside 7 feet
[/quote]
agreed, and generally due to him hitting them too firm for the line from memory

[tembolo1284]

This triangle stuff has me intrigued!

[fishstix94]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1412780062' post='10254923']This triangle stuff has me intrigued![/quote]
That makes two of us! It's intresting stuff!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1412493289' post='10238195']
[quote name='pappaf2' timestamp='1412358232' post='10230485']
I didn't go through Jim's putting bootcamp so I don't know all the ins and outs but I can say that having inward arm pressure (triangle pressure) was the single best thing to ever happen to my putting. It allows the shoulder girdle and arm triangle to function as one unit making it much easier to return the putter face square to the ball and line.
[/quote]
This inward pressure, kind of like pushing the palms together?
[/quote]

Not just the palms - both arms from armpits down to fingers. You can top it off with "wring the flannel" pressure, a very slight and subtle twisting of the hands toward each other, clockwise left hand and counter-clockwise right hand. Doing that really firms up the Triangle and helps a lot with Tempo. Inward pressure on the belly button to spine activates the Core muscles that help with the shoulder girdle rocking motion.

[zwhitworth]

I need to try this!

It seems to me that some of the fatter (SuperStroke) grips often "relax" the triangle. What grip do you find best to use when following this method?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='zwhitworth' timestamp='1412782295' post='10255171']
I need to try this!

It seems to me that some of the fatter (SuperStroke) grips often "relax" the triangle. What grip do you find best to use when following this method?
[/quote]

Thin grips make it hard to get the pressures in the hands right. And so do really think grips, I think the medium and small sized Superstroke grips are better.