Being called out for sandbagging

[Bingo1976]

Well, it appears that I am being called a sandbagger after a recent Ryder Cup style matchplay event.

 

I play infrequently now, maybe 2 times a month, but until October 2013 played weekly at a normal club, and had a proper handicap, with mostly casual rounds and some T scores amongst it. Range was a best of 78 against 75.1, and high was about 88 off the same tees. When I screw up a round, I tend not to put the card in, as I will usually give up and start messing about. This year, I have played 15 rounds give or take, half of which were high 80s and I did not submit the scorecards. ANything below an 85, I put into the online golf handicap that I maintain at one of teh SIngapore golf clubs. I waas as low as 5.4, but am now a 6.2.

 

Back to the weekend in question - the first day, playing off middle tees, I started badly, and was 6 over after 6 holes. I then hit a good shot down a downhill par 5, caught a slope and hit 6 iron to 20 foot for birdie. I still had some other blow-ups, but dovetailed with my fourball partner to make another couple of birdies which were probably offset by bogeys, to win 4 and 3.

 

Day 2 was singles, and in a seeded draw, I pulled a Tom Watson lookalike 2 handicapper. Course handicap for me was 5 shots. I started badly - losing the first hole, pulling back to AS on the second with an up and down from the sand. I continued to play poorly until the 7th where I was 2 down, having used 3 of my shot holes. After I chunked a 9 iron into the water on the 7th, I had a 'chat' with myself, and hit a good 5 iron into the par 3 8th. The 2 handicapper failed to make a simple up and down, and I 2 putted. I 3 putted 9 to leave myself one down at the turn. All the time, Tom was asking me to putt everything unless it was within a grip (this doesn't bother me - it tells me more about the opponents state of mine than my own).

 

10 is a short par 4 - I hit LW to 6" (and probably the first conceded putt) - AS. 11, he hit his second shot on the par 5 onto jungle, and I used my shot to chip the ball down the hole for an easy 6 nett 5. 1 up. The par 3 12th, now playing into a side wind over beach, I hit one of the best 6 irons of my life to 3 feet for burdie. 2 up. I ended up winning 4 and 3 as another couple of bogeys from him sealed his fate. With the bad first few holes I had, I was maybe 7 over, and was level par from 8 to 15, where I won 6 hole unanswered.

 

Fast forward 2 weeks, and I am playing with some of my team mates from that match - apparently Tom was balling me out saying that my handicap was suspiciious and that I was a 'bagger.

 

Question is, am I a 'bagger, or as was suggested by other that weekend, is he a vanity capper with an ego problem?

[shortstop20]

You got hot and he blew up trying to keep pace.

Sounds like he has sour grapes.

[ChipDriver]

The potential problem: you won AND you shot a potentially "lucky score" during the competition. On the other hand, everyone else at the club already knows that "Tom Watson" is a good stick. Nobody looks too hard at the accuser. Therefore you MUST be a great stick...and your handicap is therefore too high.

Here's what will doom you: you don't have enough current/recent scores to justify your handicap at the tournament....based on what you say, your handicap is made up of older scores and a bunch of "blanks".

As an example -
1) they audit your scores...against the Tee-sheet over the past year or so.
2) they will find several times when you were signed up to play and checked in - and then check to computer - and find no score. That's the smoking gun - and they will take negative inferences from a lack of a score. "Bingo musta shot too low a score so he left it blank to keep his handicap high".

They won't look any farther. It would be much better to see that ever time you were listed recently to play that you actually entered a score. Then there will be several RECENT SCORES that justifies the handicap you played that day - and it's at least an iota of evidence that you shot a "lucky score" in the competition.

So technically - you ARE a sandbagger....just the wrong way.

[Bingo1976]

Interesting perspective Chip. One of the reasons I don't submit my bad rounds is that I have quite a good swing (ie you could mistake me for scratch/very low single digits), and if I had put in my 86-90 scores, I would have been playing off 8 or 9 - partly this is vanity on my part, partly to avoid this very accusation. My weakness is a dodgy driver which I have recently straightened out a lot, so it is translating into lower scores

I have enough friends at the tournament who know that I am a streaky player that it is not a major issue, I just wanted to post an alternative to the usual 'this guy is a sandbaggy d'bag' threads you get on here. Somone else (an ex opponent of mine) said to me on the eve of our flight that he wasn't a 2 handicapper, and that I would kick his butt, so it sounds to me that he has the bigger handicap issue. Luckily, he was a guest from Australia, and I am more widely known amongst our peers as being a good stick, who can perform under pressure (my better scores tend to be in scratch strokeplay tournaments and match play where I am usually giving shots to my opponents)

It probably doesn't help that I shot a 4 over 77 last Saturday, but hey ho - it is only the second time I have broken 80 this year, and I do keep my score properly with the exception of back scooping tap ins (ie 6 inchers) to save time.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1413782312' post='10318119']
Interesting perspective Chip. One of the reasons I don't submit my bad rounds is that I have quite a good swing (ie you could mistake me for scratch/very low single digits), and if I had put in my 86-90 scores, I would have been playing off 8 or 9 - partly this is vanity on my part, partly to avoid this very accusation. My weakness is a dodgy driver which I have recently straightened out a lot, so it is translating into lower scores

I have enough friends at the tournament who know that I am a streaky player that it is not a major issue, I just wanted to post an alternative to the usual 'this guy is a sandbaggy d'bag' threads you get on here. Somone else (an ex opponent of mine) said to me on the eve of our flight that he wasn't a 2 handicapper, and that I would kick his butt, so it sounds to me that he has the bigger handicap issue. Luckily, he was a guest from Australia, and I am more widely known amongst our peers as being a good stick, who can perform under pressure (my better scores tend to be in scratch strokeplay tournaments and match play where I am usually giving shots to my opponents)

It probably doesn't help that I shot a 4 over 77 last Saturday, but hey ho - it is only the second time I have broken 80 this year, and I do keep my score properly with the exception of back scooping tap ins (ie 6 inchers) to save time.
[/quote]


LOL maybe it's not just your opponent who likes the "former reputation". Your two posts make it clear that you want everyone to know that you used to be a really good player. Your handicap says (or should say) that presently you're not enjoying the same consistency.

You're either faithfully reporting your scores - or you're not. There's not a lot of middle ground IMO.

[Bingo1976]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1413783229' post='10318135']
[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1413782312' post='10318119']
Interesting perspective Chip. One of the reasons I don't submit my bad rounds is that I have quite a good swing (ie you could mistake me for scratch/very low single digits), and if I had put in my 86-90 scores, I would have been playing off 8 or 9 - partly this is vanity on my part, partly to avoid this very accusation. My weakness is a dodgy driver which I have recently straightened out a lot, so it is translating into lower scores

I have enough friends at the tournament who know that I am a streaky player that it is not a major issue, I just wanted to post an alternative to the usual 'this guy is a sandbaggy d'bag' threads you get on here. Somone else (an ex opponent of mine) said to me on the eve of our flight that he wasn't a 2 handicapper, and that I would kick his butt, so it sounds to me that he has the bigger handicap issue. Luckily, he was a guest from Australia, and I am more widely known amongst our peers as being a good stick, who can perform under pressure (my better scores tend to be in scratch strokeplay tournaments and match play where I am usually giving shots to my opponents)

It probably doesn't help that I shot a 4 over 77 last Saturday, but hey ho - it is only the second time I have broken 80 this year, and I do keep my score properly with the exception of back scooping tap ins (ie 6 inchers) to save time.
[/quote]


LOL maybe it's not just your opponent who likes the "former reputation". Your two posts make it clear that you want everyone to know that you used to be a really good player. Your handicap says (or should say) that presently you're not enjoying the same consistency.

You're either faithfully reporting your scores - or you're not. There's not a lot of middle ground IMO.
[/quote]

And that's the thing - if I put in my 88s (for example), then I am off a higher handicap, and it will look worse. Re the used to be really good - I know my many limitations, and have played with enough good players to know that I am not good in the grand context of the game, but probably look like I am good to the average 18 handicapper. I have never consistently shot in the 70s - at my 'best' (least worse) my median score would be about 81-82 with enough 78-79s to bring my handicap down to 5. Even then I had a few 85s and 88s in there that obviously don't count.

[joeshmo]

So your a 6.2 and you shot 7 over. You played against a 2 that shot mid 80's
for you to win 4 and 3..
Looks like the guy you played didn't do so good. Sandbagger..I think not.

[Bingo1976]

Slightly OT, but when it came to the not giving me 18" putts - I had gone in a bit nervous as I had only played 2 rounds 2 weeks before (shot 39-47 and 42-46), had swapped putters back to my Scotty, and had not practised in the interim. The moment he made me putt a tap in, I knew he was either bothered by my handicap, the number of shots he was giving me, or trying to play mental games - all 3 of which gave me a confidence boost, and knew that mentally he was not focussing on his game, so it didn't take much to throw him when I started executing shots properly.

[Sean2]

If you submitted your higher scores your HI would be even higher. He lost. You won. He did not take defeat graciously.

On a side note. I submit all of my scores. I post some high numbers at times, but since it is best 10 out of 20 it does not affect my HI.

[hammy83]

the fact you had to come on here and ask us if your a sandbagger. No offence but you know the answer.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1413780448' post='10318069']
The potential problem: you won AND you shot a potentially "lucky score" during the competition. On the other hand, everyone else at the club already knows that "Tom Watson" is a good stick. Nobody looks too hard at the accuser. Therefore you MUST be a great stick...and your handicap is therefore too high.

Here's what will doom you: you don't have enough current/recent scores to justify your handicap at the tournament....based on what you say, your handicap is made up of older scores and a bunch of "blanks".

As an example -
1) they audit your scores...against the Tee-sheet over the past year or so.
2) they will find several times when you were signed up to play and checked in - and then check to computer - and find no score. That's the smoking gun - and they will take negative inferences from a lack of a score. "Bingo musta shot too low a score so he left it blank to keep his handicap high".

They won't look any farther. It would be much better to see that ever time you were listed recently to play that you actually entered a score. Then there will be several RECENT SCORES that justifies the handicap you played that day - and it's at least an iota of evidence that you shot a "lucky score" in the competition.

So technically - you ARE a sandbagger....just the wrong way.
[/quote]

This. Funny thing is while we are supposed to post *all* scores I might find myself tempted to not post a blow up. I never seem to have that temptation when I play well for some reason .

While technically a bagger...I agree with the sour grapes theory.

[bazinky]

Just curious, but what's the course rating/slope and what was your course handicap?

A 6.2 shooting 7 over seems perfectly normal on the surface. I would be surprised if the handicap committee would even bother to look at that one, to be honest. I have never heard of someone complaining that someone sandbagged them by shooting about what their handicap says they should. Some people just can't handle losing ...

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1413785698' post='10318185']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1413783229' post='10318135']
[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1413782312' post='10318119']
Interesting perspective Chip. One of the reasons I don't submit my bad rounds is that I have quite a good swing (ie you could mistake me for scratch/very low single digits), and if I had put in my 86-90 scores, I would have been playing off 8 or 9 - partly this is vanity on my part, partly to avoid this very accusation. My weakness is a dodgy driver which I have recently straightened out a lot, so it is translating into lower scores

I have enough friends at the tournament who know that I am a streaky player that it is not a major issue, I just wanted to post an alternative to the usual 'this guy is a sandbaggy d'bag' threads you get on here. Somone else (an ex opponent of mine) said to me on the eve of our flight that he wasn't a 2 handicapper, and that I would kick his butt, so it sounds to me that he has the bigger handicap issue. Luckily, he was a guest from Australia, and I am more widely known amongst our peers as being a good stick, who can perform under pressure (my better scores tend to be in scratch strokeplay tournaments and match play where I am usually giving shots to my opponents)

It probably doesn't help that I shot a 4 over 77 last Saturday, but hey ho - it is only the second time I have broken 80 this year, and I do keep my score properly with the exception of back scooping tap ins (ie 6 inchers) to save time.
[/quote]


LOL maybe it's not just your opponent who likes the "former reputation". Your two posts make it clear that you want everyone to know that you used to be a really good player. Your handicap says (or should say) that presently you're not enjoying the same consistency.

You're either faithfully reporting your scores - or you're not. There's not a lot of middle ground IMO.
[/quote]

And that's the thing - if I put in my 88s (for example), then I am off a higher handicap, and it will look worse. Re the used to be really good - I know my many limitations, and have played with enough good players to know that I am not good in the grand context of the game, but probably look like I am good to the average 18 handicapper. I have never consistently shot in the 70s - at my 'best' (least worse) my median score would be about 81-82 with enough 78-79s to bring my handicap down to 5. Even then I had a few 85s and 88s in there that obviously don't count.
[/quote]

I agree and I hear you. However - when it comes to handicapped matches - if you're being accused of cheating - when they audit and find 1) you played several times and 2) but you did NOT post a score - most people simply aren't going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Why wouldn't you post your bad scores and only your good ones? Vanity is one reason. And "b/c it would make my handicap even worse" is the typical (and your) excuse. But that's exactly what's screwing you now. My suggestion is that if you have a reputation for posting ALL of your scores - then you wouldn't be in this mess you are now. To put it another way - at least with all scores - there is evidence that you are trying to be compliant with the handicap system, not complicit in trying to defraud it.

Overall I wouldn't worry about it - unless they are trying to kick you out of the club or from future matches. Just put the scores in - all of them. It's tough to get a match if your club thinks you're a verified cheater.

Hang in there.

[suprfli6]

[quote name='hammy83' timestamp='1413807912' post='10318539']
the fact you had to come on here and ask us if your a sandbagger. No offence but you know the answer.
[/quote]
Did you actually read his post? If anything, he is the opposite of a bagger.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1413779789' post='10318035']
Well, it appears that I am being called a sandbagger after a recent Ryder Cup style matchplay event.

I play infrequently now, maybe 2 times a month, but until October 2013 played weekly at a normal club, and had a proper handicap, with mostly casual rounds and some T scores amongst it. Range was a best of 78 against 75.1, and high was about 88 off the same tees. When I screw up a round, I tend not to put the card in, as I will usually give up and start messing about. This year, I have played 15 rounds give or take, half of which were high 80s and I did not submit the scorecards. ANything below an 85, I put into the online golf handicap that I maintain at one of teh SIngapore golf clubs. I waas as low as 5.4, but am now a 6.2.

Back to the weekend in question - the first day, playing off middle tees, I started badly, and was 6 over after 6 holes. I then hit a good shot down a downhill par 5, caught a slope and hit 6 iron to 20 foot for birdie. I still had some other blow-ups, but dovetailed with my fourball partner to make another couple of birdies which were probably offset by bogeys, to win 4 and 3.

Day 2 was singles, and in a seeded draw, I pulled a Tom Watson lookalike 2 handicapper. Course handicap for me was 5 shots. I started badly - losing the first hole, pulling back to AS on the second with an up and down from the sand. I continued to play poorly until the 7th where I was 2 down, having used 3 of my shot holes. After I chunked a 9 iron into the water on the 7th, I had a 'chat' with myself, and hit a good 5 iron into the par 3 8th. The 2 handicapper failed to make a simple up and down, and I 2 putted. I 3 putted 9 to leave myself one down at the turn. All the time, Tom was asking me to putt everything unless it was within a grip (this doesn't bother me - it tells me more about the opponents state of mine than my own).

10 is a short par 4 - I hit LW to 6" (and probably the first conceded putt) - AS. 11, he hit his second shot on the par 5 onto jungle, and I used my shot to chip the ball down the hole for an easy 6 nett 5. 1 up. The par 3 12th, now playing into a side wind over beach, I hit one of the best 6 irons of my life to 3 feet for burdie. 2 up. I ended up winning 4 and 3 as another couple of bogeys from him sealed his fate. With the bad first few holes I had, I was maybe 7 over, and was level par from 8 to 15, where I won 6 hole unanswered.

Fast forward 2 weeks, and I am playing with some of my team mates from that match - apparently Tom was balling me out saying that my handicap was suspiciious and that I was a 'bagger.

Question is, am I a 'bagger, or as was suggested by other that weekend, is he a vanity capper with an ego problem?
[/quote]

Two things...and I apologize for the second one. You played well and won, with both good and not so good shots in the mix so sandbagging isn't your style. The comment I apologize for though is not posting all of your scores. You can't have a real index if you only post the good scores. If anything, you're probably cheating yourself out of a stroke or two per round by not posting the not so good ones. Not meant to offend but just trying to be honest.

[DevilDog]

Just my two cents, match play doesn't really indicate well if someone is a bagger or not. It's hole to hole. Overall score really doesn't matter. A good player has a couple of errant shots even a par could beat them on those holes. All I ever think about in match play is that I am playing the same number shot as the opposition in the same approximate location. Meaning if he is on the green in 2, I am on the green in 2.

[glk]

I once was accused of sandbagging in a similar event. I was playing as an 8 against a 16 - nine hole singles match - giving him 4 strokes - matched ended up in a half - he shot 41 I shot 39 - he said I was bagging it and didn't believe I was just an 8! I just shook my head and walked away. Some people don't take losing very well - or in this case not winning.

[bogeypro]

I can understand the OP not posting all scores. Technically, if he is dropping balls, rolling them to better lies, and taking second shots and basically "practicing", then it is not a legal score anyway (the way I understand it). I do that as well. If I go out with the mindset of practicing, I don't post that score because I may be rolling the ball, hitting second shots, etc....

I usually decide before the round if I am going to post this round.... At that point, I play by the rules and post the score.

[hammy83]

[quote name='suprfli6' timestamp='1413813293' post='10318911']
[quote name='hammy83' timestamp='1413807912' post='10318539']
the fact you had to come on here and ask us if your a sandbagger. No offence but you know the answer.
[/quote]
Did you actually read his post? If anything, he is the opposite of a bagger.
[/quote]

yes I did and again he already knows the answer. Like someone else stated, you either are or your not. There is no middle.

[sthomson]

Even if some holes aren't played by the rules of golf, a score needs to be posted.

[url="http://www.usga.org/handicapping/publications/To-Post-Or-Not-To-Post/"]To Post or Not To Post[/url]
[quote][b]To Post:[/b]
...You must play by the principles of the Rules of Golf in order to post your score. For instance, if you use a mulligan, you aren't playing a hole under the Rules of Golf, [i]so treat it as a hole not played and record par plus any handicap strokes you would have received[/i]...

[b]Not to Post:[/b]
...When a [i]majority[/i] of the holes are not played in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf[/quote]

Also don't forget about ESC scores. The USGA handicap system already accounts for blowup holes - on courses where your course handicap is 9 or below, the max postable score is a double bogey.

[Bingo1976]

[quote name='hammy83' timestamp='1413816841' post='10319239']
[quote name='suprfli6' timestamp='1413813293' post='10318911']
[quote name='hammy83' timestamp='1413807912' post='10318539']
the fact you had to come on here and ask us if your a sandbagger. No offence but you know the answer.
[/quote]
Did you actually read his post? If anything, he is the opposite of a bagger.
[/quote]

yes I did and again he already knows the answer. Like someone else stated, you either are or your not. There is no middle.
[/quote]

So by making my handicap lower than it ought to be, i am a sandbagger. That's a new one on me.

In essence, the match boiled down to his vanity cap being worse than mine.

I do use ESC when I do calculate handicap rounds, I just don't put in cards when I give up on the 11th hole and start dicking around. Isn't one of the tenets of submitting a proper card? What starts off as a handicap round becomes a practice round after you blow your 6 handicap strokes in 3 holes?

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1413817793' post='10319307']
[quote name='hammy83' timestamp='1413816841' post='10319239']
[quote name='suprfli6' timestamp='1413813293' post='10318911']
[quote name='hammy83' timestamp='1413807912' post='10318539']
the fact you had to come on here and ask us if your a sandbagger. No offence but you know the answer.
[/quote]
Did you actually read his post? If anything, he is the opposite of a bagger.
[/quote]

yes I did and again he already knows the answer. Like someone else stated, you either are or your not. There is no middle.
[/quote]

So by making my handicap lower than it ought to be, i am a sandbagger. That's a new one on me.

In essence, the match boiled down to his vanity cap being worse than mine.

I do use ESC when I do calculate handicap rounds, I just don't put in cards when I give up on the 11th hole and start dicking around. Isn't one of the tenets of submitting a proper card? What starts off as a handicap round becomes a practice round after you blow your 6 handicap strokes in 3 holes?
[/quote]

Would not call it sandbagging in the least. Last week was playing my best round of the year through 12 and then became stupid. By the 16th hole it became an average round and I didn't really care. Still posted the score. Kind of like marriage...for better for worse.

Of course, with Mrs. Pelz I'm still waiting for the better.

[hammy83]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1413817793' post='10319307']
[quote name='hammy83' timestamp='1413816841' post='10319239']
[quote name='suprfli6' timestamp='1413813293' post='10318911']
[quote name='hammy83' timestamp='1413807912' post='10318539']
the fact you had to come on here and ask us if your a sandbagger. No offence but you know the answer.
[/quote]
Did you actually read his post? If anything, he is the opposite of a bagger.
[/quote]

yes I did and again he already knows the answer. Like someone else stated, you either are or your not. There is no middle.
[/quote]

So by making my handicap lower than it ought to be, i am a sandbagger. That's a new one on me.

In essence, the match boiled down to his vanity cap being worse than mine.

I do use ESC when I do calculate handicap rounds, I just don't put in cards when I give up on the 11th hole and start dicking around. Isn't one of the tenets of submitting a proper card? What starts off as a handicap round becomes a practice round after you blow your 6 handicap strokes in 3 holes?
[/quote]

I wasn't calling you a sandbagger or a reverse sandbagger. You asked the question "[color=#282828]Question is, am I a 'bagger, or as was suggested by other that weekend, is he a vanity capper with an ego problem?" I said you already know the answer. [/color]

[farmer]

Sounds more like a vanity hdcp to me. Sandbagging, no.

[poppyhillsguy]

Classic over-reaction, denial post; you're obviously a sandbagger.

[MidwestGolfBum]

To those saying "just check when you were on the sheet and see if there is a score" I will have to disagree. There are plenty of times that I have gone out to just work on a specific thing, but end up being on the sheet because I went out. There is no way I am going to keep score if I am working on a single thing, probably playing 3 or 4 balls depending on time of day and not necessarily playing all the shots out. I do this probably once a week throughout the year because of something that frustrated me from the day before. There are also plenty of times that I go out with my father and am working on things with him that I don't really play all my shots either, as it isn't about me that day.

To the OP, no, you are not a sandbagger, the guy who lost just wasn't happy with how he played that day and needed to take it out on somebody. Sounds like the people that you play with there on a regular basis know this as well as you knowing this, so you shouldn't even worry at all about it. Let the guy be upset about the fact that he didn't play well, laugh it off, and move on. I have also been called a sandbagger when I was playing to a 1 cap, because apparently when you shoot even par for a day, it's completely out of the realm for a guy who only gets a shot.

[teckneeklyperfect]

we got your back,, your good,

[sthomson]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1413817793' post='10319307']
I do use ESC when I do calculate handicap rounds, I just don't put in cards when I give up on the 11th hole and start dicking around. Isn't one of the tenets of submitting a proper card? What starts off as a handicap round becomes a practice round after you blow your 6 handicap strokes in 3 holes?
[/quote]

My reading of the USGA Handicap guidelines, which I linked to above, is that if you play 10 holes and then don't play by the rules on the next 8, you should absolutely post your score. For the last eight holes you would post par+strokes, because you played the majority of holes by the rules of golf.

An alternate interpretation: you played a regulation 9 - hole round (as you played at least 7 hole by the rules of golf, but not 13).

[llewol007]

Sounds like a lower handicap complaining how a higher handicap beat him.

[golfcarte]

i was accused of sandbagging a couple of times, once during a bantam bowling championship, once during high school golf districts.

i can tell you from my experience, i just seem to get up more and play better when there is more on the line. i have never personally tanked games or matches, i've just been the type of person that seems to do well under pressure.

i haven't played any golf of significance since high school. when i play with friends, i am very relaxed and hence, i play very badly. when i play with people i don't know, i tend to play a little better. maybe its an ego thing, or an acceptance thing, but it's not sandbagging.