Helping a HS golfer - Mental Game/Nerves/Etc

[gioguy21]

WRX -

 

looking for some help here. for reference - i'm NOT a PGA professional, nor do i advertise as such (cough cough jon hon cough)...however - i currently coach a 16 year old who could be considered a younger brother to me. i'm 29...he comes over to our house on weekends, plays golf, talks shop (building clubs, gripping, etc) and plays off a current 3 handicap.

 

i'm a righty, he's a lefty. similar size except he's got a few more lbs on him than i do. he's got a fluid, couples like swing and has a very good short game. his issue is NOT his actual golf...but rather in his head.

 

i play off scratch or slightly better...he tries EVERY time out to beat me and can't. he has aspirations of going forward to D I/II college golf and ultimately pros...(he's been playing for 3 years and played in the final at Augusta in the Drive/Chip/Putt competition---the kid has talent).

 

his biggest hurdle is the mental game and his attitude. he gets wrapped up in what i'm shooting and how to beat ME versus going out and shooting a good score for himself and then (afterwards) seeing if he beat me or not. between that and his loss of focus AFTER i do something (birdie, chip close, approach shot close, etc) is absolutely killing him.

 

I know he can shoot low. i've seen him have 5-6 birdies in a round yet, still shoot 2-5 over par because of the issues above.

 

his performance in tourney's has hurt b/c of this as well, while knowing what he 'has to' shoot to win. how can i get through to him? i'm his caddie as well so, it's tough for me to break the walls down and get to him since he considers me his close friend too.

 

any and all help would be immensely appreciated. i know there's a lot of you guys/girls here who know what i'm goin through.

[Pigems]

What if you just caddy for him instead of playing with him so there is no one for him to "beat", he can just focus on playing.

Also if he is that good, maybe a sports psychologist would help??

[gioguy21]

[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1413828526' post='10320397']
What if you just caddy for him instead of playing with him so there is no one for him to "beat", he can just focus on playing.

Also if he is that good, maybe a sports psychologist would help??
[/quote]

well - i don't caddie for him all the time. and we play together b/c 1) we like to and 2) although not a professional, i know a thing or two about the golf swing and help teach him since he/his family doesn't have that much for lessons - and by much i mean nil. in 2 summers i've gotten him from a 10 to a current 3 and has been as low as 1.

a sports psychologist would absolutely help...see 2) above.

[Pigems]

That sucks, maybe you could find him a sponsor who would be willing to cough up the shrink bill?? Or maybe there is a fellow member who is one?? I wish I could be of more help

[gioguy21]

it's all good pigems, i appreciate it. honestly like i said, any insights/comments are welcomed. as it is, i've bought him a lot of equipment as he's progressed. if he was a righty he'd have 3 bags of clubs by now lol

as for the shrink - was thinking of alternative means to get this stuff out, ie coming here and asking for help before throwin money at a doc.

[Pigems]

I started this thread a while back about falling apart on the back nine, ie: losing focus, looking at scores etc. Maybe it can help him like it helped me. There is lots of good info in there.

Also I'm a lefty, what if any clubs or gear does he need?? I'd love to help the kid out if I could some way or another. I went through the same thing with hockey as a kid, I had the skills but no funding, and a mean temper lol

[Pigems]

Forgot to give you the link to that thread, here you go sir.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/958371-falling-apart-on-the-back-nineupdate-on-page-2/

[gioguy21]

[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1413830522' post='10320587']
I started this thread a while back about falling apart on the back nine, ie: losing focus, looking at scores etc. Maybe it can help him like it helped me. There is lots of good info in there.

Also I'm a lefty, what if any clubs or gear does he need?? I'd love to help the kid out if I could some way or another. I went through the same thing with hockey as a kid, I had the skills but no funding, and a mean temper lol
[/quote]

lol it's not necessarily about what he 'needs'...he's a hoe'r just like myself.

reality - needs a driving iron of some sort to replace his hybrid that he has absolutely no use for (no confidence with it off a tee which is why he got it in the first place), as well as a players cavity back iron set that's not 10+ years old. he plays either CG16's (huge shovels) or a set of DCI's from the late 90s.

his current setup -

D: Razr Xtreme
3w: TM RBZ S2
2H: Wilson FG tour M3
irons: DCI's or CG16's
wedges: nike x3x black ox 52, 56, 60 OR vokeys (he's got a bunch of wedges)
putter: odyssey versa BWB #7, scotty cameron bullseye

[Pigems]

Well I don't have any irons right now that would fit the bill(my only remaining extra set are old spaldings) I do have a brand new Callaway RAZR X HL hybrid in stiff. I got it marked down from?$179 to $25 on day at golf town(my wife bought it as per the wager because I cant) but I'd give it to him for the price of shipping it there if he wants it, I know I won't use it

[Pigems]

I'd give him the same deal on this one too if he wanted. Its a regular wishon shaft but it plays stiff.

[gioguy21]

i'll get back to you on the callaway one.




guys - still lookin for some advice for the mental case i'm dealin with lol

[Pigems]

Cool

[rflores2323]

well I have not been in your situation however I justed posted something similiar that I was looking for my daughter. I wanted a golf mentor for her to be able to talk and learn from. Not a coach but a mentor.

My suggestions would be to stop competing with him and practice with him. Setup some drills for him and start putting some time with him that way. Give him some good books to read about golf and self improvement. Read it and then have some good discussions with him off the golf course. Right now he doesn't see you as support (in his eyes) but more of a competitor so that needs to change. Why not on his next tournament that you cannot caddie go over the holes with him on google maps? Get his game plan together for that tournaments and write down goals for that tournaments and then long term goals that he wants. Everytime you see each other go over the goals and how he is trying to reach them. That way he starts to think of you more on a coach level than someone he wants to beat.

Just my 0.02

[gioguy21]

[quote name='rflores2323' timestamp='1413837918' post='10321267']well I have not been in your situation however I justed posted something similiar that I was looking for my daughter. I wanted a golf mentor for her to be able to talk and learn from. Not a coach but a mentor.

My suggestions would be to stop competing with him and practice with him. Setup some drills for him and start putting some time with him that way. Give him some good books to read about golf and self improvement. Read it and then have some good discussions with him off the golf course. Right now he doesn't see you as support (in his eyes) but more of a competitor so that needs to change. Why not on his next tournament that you cannot caddie go over the holes with him on google maps? Get his game plan together for that tournaments and write down goals for that tournaments and then long term goals that he wants. Everytime you see each other go over the goals and how he is trying to reach them. That way he starts to think of you more on a coach level than someone he wants to beat.

Just my 0.02[/quote] we do the planning thing as well pre-tournament. I will definitely be getting him some books to read. Thanks for the tips.

What can or have you done ON course to get him/her out of a funk or a mood? Ive tried a lot of things but nothing sinks in for longer than a shot.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1413834763' post='10320975']
i'll get back to you on the callaway one.




guys - still lookin for some advice for the mental case i'm dealin with lol
[/quote]

Two lines of reasoning - select the one that fits:

1) Target one day to play two 18 hole rounds (or two 9 as time permits). Have him play one round without you first and then one with. If the problem is as you say, then he should do better by himself than playing against his "competitor." He needs to see that he can do better when focusing on his own game.

2) Let him keep doing what he is doing. It might take him getting used to playing against someone better than he is. In time, he will figure out how to beat you and progress to the point you two are on more even footing.

Everyone does things in their own way. Neither is an incorrect perspective. The fact that he wants to beat you so badly is because he enjoys his time playing with you. That is what will keep him going, regardless of the outcome of your matches. He might just be playing this way against you - only. Does he do the same thing when playing against others?

[drewtaylor21]

My first 2 thoughts:

1) Does he have a pre-shot routine solidified? If so, what does it consist of?

2) How often do you actually discuss the mental side with him? Have you ever had him do any mental drills when playing that you two go over after the round? Something simple like keeping "mental score" instead of keeping track of strokes for some of his rounds might be a good idea. Thinking of something like the following:

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2014-08/dr-michael-lardon-mental-game"]http://www.golfdiges...don-mental-game[/url]

[Sling]

My son is 14 and is in a very similar situation, plays off scratch (actually slightly better) can throw in 4 or 5 birdies in a tournament round yet his best is still only a 74 playing from the back tees.

The most frustrating thing for me is that particularly when things aren't going well he is far too concerned with his score rather than focusing on the next shot. Play with him without actually keeping score, play match play, play for money!

[gioguy21]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1413858495' post='10323303']
[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1413834763' post='10320975']
i'll get back to you on the callaway one.




guys - still lookin for some advice for the mental case i'm dealin with lol
[/quote]

Two lines of reasoning - select the one that fits:

1) Target one day to play two 18 hole rounds (or two 9 as time permits). Have him play one round without you first and then one with. If the problem is as you say, then he should do better by himself than playing against his "competitor." He needs to see that he can do better when focusing on his own game.

2) Let him keep doing what he is doing. It might take him getting used to playing against someone better than he is. In time, he will figure out how to beat you and progress to the point you two are on more even footing.

Everyone does things in their own way. Neither is an incorrect perspective. The fact that he wants to beat you so badly is because he enjoys his time playing with you. That is what will keep him going, regardless of the outcome of your matches. He might just be playing this way against you - only. Does he do the same thing when playing against others?
[/quote]

1) when he's not with me, he shoots better. i've seen his cards...i KNOW it's b/c of me and the fact that i'm a lower handicapper than anyone he plays against or with in hs or for fun. He's UBER competitive when it comes to things against me (again, big brother scenario)...

2) he will keep doing what he's doing, no doubt about that. i was just hoping to get to him without making it seem like a lesson or, somethin like that.

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1413861415' post='10323617']
My first 2 thoughts:

1) Does he have a pre-shot routine solidified? If so, what does it consist of?

2) How often do you actually discuss the mental side with him? Have you ever had him do any mental drills when playing that you two go over after the round? Something simple like keeping "mental score" instead of keeping track of strokes for some of his rounds might be a good idea. Thinking of something like the following:

[url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2014-08/dr-michael-lardon-mental-game"]http://www.golfdiges...don-mental-game[/url]
[/quote]

1) yes, he does.

on stroke shots that aren't putting - stands perpendicular to target and takes a practice swing, looks up, 'sees' the shot he wants to hit, walks into the ball/address, looks up, down, up, down, pull the trigger

for putting he does similar - stands perpendicular to his line and takes a practice swing, walks into the ball behind it, takes another practice swing while lookin down the line, addresses the ball, look up, down, up, down, pull the trigger

2) he needs, NEEDS more mental practice with the game. on his christmas list (he doesn't know about) he has some books lined up for winter to study

[gioguy21]

just wanted to say - thanks again fellas. i appreciate any/all of your insights.

[blaird]

I dont think I understand.

When he plays with you, all he thinks about is beating you, trying too hard, etc..??

But when he plays in tournaments he plays fine and his scores are better?? Or just when he plays a normal round not with you he plays better??

If this is all correct, it doesnt sound like he needs a mental coach. Just sounds like he wants to beat you which there is nothing wrong with. I would say its actually a good thing. He eventually will and then it will start happeneing more frequently as he gets better which he then can apply that experience to tournament golf.

You said he wants to go to college for golf. What are his tournament scores like??

[gioguy21]

[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1413898277' post='10324997']
I dont think I understand.

When he plays with you, all he thinks about is beating you, trying too hard, etc..??

But when he plays in tournaments he plays fine and his scores are better?? Or just when he plays a normal round not with you he plays better??

If this is all correct, it doesnt sound like he needs a mental coach. Just sounds like he wants to beat you which there is nothing wrong with. I would say its actually a good thing. He eventually will and then it will start happeneing more frequently as he gets better which he then can apply that experience to tournament golf.

You said he wants to go to college for golf. What are his tournament scores like??
[/quote]

when he plays against me or golfers of his age that are of my caliber...he struggles b/c he's focusing on them versus himself. he lost his regional qualifier after carding an 8 (quad) on the last hole b/c he admittedly was thinking about the fact he only had to shoot a 6 to win.

in our area where he plays, tournament scores are generally a lot higher for some reason for these kids b/c the courses go apesh!t on setups vs. normal hs level rounds. NE PA. his scoring average for the season is 75.3 and his tourney average is 79.somethin

when he plays with me...he barely shoots under 80's...BUT when i struggle a little (ie mid 70's) he will shoot lower than 80.

i know for a fact his issues are mental. i've watched him self-destruct on saturday. i carded a 68 shooting 37, 31 with 6 birdies on the back. after i got 2 birds thru 3 holes on the back he started visibly getting more and more frustrated/angry with the fact i was holin putts and putting shots close and he wasn't. he carded an 82. i know for a fact he could've shot 70's at this course with his eyes closed.

[ultra45]

It sounds like he has a routine.. but his mind still isn't in the right place

"think box/play box" might be something to put into practice... or a book like "every shot must have a purpose" ... another way of hopefully staying in the moment

[rflores2323]

[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1413857588' post='10323213']
[quote name='rflores2323' timestamp='1413837918' post='10321267']well I have not been in your situation however I justed posted something similiar that I was looking for my daughter. I wanted a golf mentor for her to be able to talk and learn from. Not a coach but a mentor.

My suggestions would be to stop competing with him and practice with him. Setup some drills for him and start putting some time with him that way. Give him some good books to read about golf and self improvement. Read it and then have some good discussions with him off the golf course. Right now he doesn't see you as support (in his eyes) but more of a competitor so that needs to change. Why not on his next tournament that you cannot caddie go over the holes with him on google maps? Get his game plan together for that tournaments and write down goals for that tournaments and then long term goals that he wants. Everytime you see each other go over the goals and how he is trying to reach them. That way he starts to think of you more on a coach level than someone he wants to beat.

Just my 0.02[/quote] we do the planning thing as well pre-tournament. I will definitely be getting him some books to read. Thanks for the tips.

What can or have you done ON course to get him/her out of a funk or a mood? Ive tried a lot of things but nothing sinks in for longer than a shot.
[/quote]

When we practice we dont keep score. We work on a specific thing that day and focus on that. If we play on a course then we try to have 3 main things we are focusing on. I believe its great to be competitve however if its keeping him from getting better then you need to try a new approach.

Stop taking score and making it about that.. Make it about getting better at specific things.

For instance... we play target shots on each hole. Sometimes the targets we pick for the other player are not the ideal target to make a par etc.. but what is does is make you play from different shots and different lies. We dont keep total score of the shots.. we are only looking at the shot we are taking and the following target shot that the other player picked for you to shoot. Get it? This makes you aim and make shots and brings a fun aspect to it.

Another thing we do it ONLY keep score on certain aspects.. like putts if we are playing another game. That way she is concentrating on that.

I believe the whole "score" thing is what makes him lose focus. Take that out the game and have him do individual practice drills on the course. Then when he plays against other people it should all fall together and lower his scores.

[gioguy21]

i'll try the whole - no score thing...if we work on specifically one thing...ie fairways, hitting greens in reg, putting, up and downs, etc. i think he might play better overall. thanks for the tip rflores!

[drewtaylor21]

I'm glad you're getting him some reading material for Christmas! I'm biased towards anything by Bob Rotella and I think that would be a good place to start with him. He talks a lot about getting away from the results and focusing on the process. It's been a huge help for me in competitive situations. The idea being that instead of measuring success by score, measure it by whether or not you were successful at executing your own "process." It is simple, but makes a big difference. Also, I find that when I execute my process, my score is better anyway, even if I'm not focused on it.

Another thing I'd be curious about is the WHY. Why does he want to beat you so bad? Try and get down to the internal motivators for him. Are there self-worth issues at play? A HUGE driving force for a lot of people is fear. Fear of posting a big number, fear of looking stupid in front of significant members of our social sphere. Fear is also crippling in golf and will never result in anything good. If that's the case, see if you can address some of that as well. Good luck to you both! Also, just as a side note, I think it's really cool that you are a kind of golf/life mentor for him. Kids need more of that, so well done and keep it up!

[gioguy21]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1413903397' post='10325505']
I'm glad you're getting him some reading material for Christmas! I'm biased towards anything by Bob Rotella and I think that would be a good place to start with him. He talks a lot about getting away from the results and focusing on the process. It's been a huge help for me in competitive situations. The idea being that instead of measuring success by score, measure it by whether or not you were successful at executing your own "process." It is simple, but makes a big difference. Also, I find that when I execute my process, my score is better anyway, even if I'm not focused on it.

Another thing I'd be curious about is the WHY. Why does he want to beat you so bad? Try and get down to the internal motivators for him. Are there self-worth issues at play? A HUGE driving force for a lot of people is fear. Fear of posting a big number, fear of looking stupid in front of significant members of our social sphere. Fear is also crippling in golf and will never result in anything good. If that's the case, see if you can address some of that as well. Good luck to you both! Also, just as a side note, I think it's really cool that you are a kind of golf/life mentor for him. Kids need more of that, so well done and keep it up!
[/quote]

thank you drew for the kind words. Rotella is definitely on the list lol - as for the why, i think he wants to beat me so bad b/c of the friendly rivalry paired with the fact that he doesn't play guys of my caliber, let alone better. he believes if he can beat me handily - he will be more than ok for going forward to college golf and upward. it's a hurdle if you will. i don't believe he's fearful - in fact he's downright cocky (takes after me in that sense). he went into Augusta in the drive/chip/putt competition fearless. he had one bad drive in the driving portion and it was all mental after that. i guess if he had a fear it would be the biggest one of em all (most of us can relate to) - not making the cut...and by cut i mean all kinds of cases - not making the cut to be on a college team, not making the literal cut in a tournament, etc.

it's easy to be a mentor/big brother to a kid who's as genuinely appreciative and solid morally as he is. his parents are very lucky people and deserve the praise...

[blaird]

[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1413899189' post='10325055']
[quote name='blaird' timestamp='1413898277' post='10324997']
I dont think I understand.

When he plays with you, all he thinks about is beating you, trying too hard, etc..??

But when he plays in tournaments he plays fine and his scores are better?? Or just when he plays a normal round not with you he plays better??

If this is all correct, it doesnt sound like he needs a mental coach. Just sounds like he wants to beat you which there is nothing wrong with. I would say its actually a good thing. He eventually will and then it will start happeneing more frequently as he gets better which he then can apply that experience to tournament golf.

You said he wants to go to college for golf. What are his tournament scores like??
[/quote]

when he plays against me or golfers of his age that are of my caliber...he struggles b/c he's focusing on them versus himself. he lost his regional qualifier after carding an 8 (quad) on the last hole b/c he admittedly was thinking about the fact he only had to shoot a 6 to win.

in our area where he plays, tournament scores are generally a lot higher for some reason for these kids b/c the courses go apesh!t on setups vs. normal hs level rounds. NE PA. his scoring average for the season is 75.3 and his tourney average is 79.somethin

when he plays with me...he barely shoots under 80's...BUT when i struggle a little (ie mid 70's) he will shoot lower than 80.

i know for a fact his issues are mental. i've watched him self-destruct on saturday. i carded a 68 shooting 37, 31 with 6 birdies on the back. after i got 2 birds thru 3 holes on the back he started visibly getting more and more frustrated/angry with the fact i was holin putts and putting shots close and he wasn't. he carded an 82. i know for a fact he could've shot 70's at this course with his eyes closed.
[/quote]

I still dont think I understand. From what I do get I will offer this:

Let him do all the mistakes while playing with you. After the round, have a coke and talk about it and see what changes can be made. What he does with you should have no impact on what he does in a tournament, which to me is way more important if he has a desire to play college golf.

That should be yalls only focus. It should never matter what he has to do to beat you. Let him keep grinding and keep offering advice after the round. Or you could just blow it and shoot 85 one day and let him beat you. You know what they say, once youve done it once its easier to do after. Or let him get close, say have a 1 shot lead with two holes to play. Start putting him in these situations so maybe when a tournament rolls around he can take this with him.

If I were you I wouldnt worry about what he is doing when yall play. If anything, that should be an escape from the grind of tournaments. Just a friendly competition between two buddies. But like I said, I would sit back after each round and find where strokes could have been saved by doing things differently. If he is focusing on the better golfers in his group there isnt much you can do other than reinforce that he sticks to his shots. He wont change until he does it so much that it becomes his normal routine.

[gioguy21]

thanks blaird - i think we need to do more re-capping of shots and round summaries. there might be some knowledge in there we're not working through.

i think the hardest part for me when playing/caddying with him is i can see in his face and his mannerisms when his mind is goin a mile a minute. i keep reminding him to 'get out of [his] head'...b/c i know the longer he goes thinking about stuff the worse his scores are going to be. i've done just about everything i can to get him to talk about other things while playing but i know his mind is thinking about other golf related things- ie swing, score, etc.

i think the mental coaching/reading over the winter will help him alot. besides, i think i'm going to start talking to him hole by hole through his round BEFORE he plays to set him up so he doesn't have to think as much during his rounds.

[drewtaylor21]

Here's another thought:

Obviously the mental side isn't his only issue, or he'd be lower than a 3. Perhaps there are some swing tendencies that exacerbate his somewhat fragile mental state? I would take a good look at his typical misses and the actual ballstriking aspects of his game as well. If he improves ball striking, it's a heck of a lot easier to be more confident and follow through mentally! I know this is a mental help thread, but I strongly believe that the physical side of things has a profound impact on our ability to mentally stay "in it" in a round of golf.

What does he shoot when he plays alone? I'm guessing he does better, but it's not like he's going super low, right? That means there is room for improvement in just the physical/skill/technical side as well.

Even if his mental game stays the same, if he improves his skills his scores will drop, which in the end, is what it's all about anyway. I agree that from the sounds of it, he could use a bit of direction mentally. Some of it sounds like an age/maturity issue, but to me, a lot of it sounds like just plain old skill.

Anyway, hope you guys figure it out!

[Apex93]

Second the advice of reading books on the subject. Read them together, discuss what the main points are (and why they are important), then remind him to put it in practice when you two are playing together. Books are cheaper than a mental coach.
I never thought about the mental game when I was a junior, and wish I had.
Also, treat your practice rounds like "playing lessons with the pros" and talk through strategy on each of your shots - the goal here being focused on the process, as opposed to competition between the two of you.