GUR or Grrrrr?

[Bingo1976]

Quick dilemma here. Was playing a round on Saturday (4ball matchplay). My tee shot finds the edge of a bunker with a worn front edge which then went into marked GUR. It was hard to find an exact edge (hence the GUR, but I would say that 30% of the ball was in the bunker, and the rest was GUR. I ended up playing it as it lied. Was I right?

[Sawgrass]

If a ball touches GUR, it's in GUR. If a ball touches a bunker, it's in the bunker. Your ball touched each, and was therefore in each: that is, in GUR in a bunker.

You can play it as it lies, as you did (unless there was a local rule requiring mandatory GUR relief) or you could take a drop which may or may not have been free according to 25-1B:
[color=#000000][size=3]
(ii)[u]In a Bunker[/u]: If the ball is in a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Bunker"]bunker[/url][/i], the player must lift the ball and drop it either:[/size][/color][color=#000000][size=3]
(a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Nearest-Point-Of-Relief"]nearest point of relief[/url][/i] must be in the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Bunker"]bunker[/url][/i] and the ball must be dropped in the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Bunker"]bunker[/url][/i] or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Hole"]hole[/url][/i], on a part of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i] in the[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Bunker"]bunker[/url][/i] that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or[/size][/color][color=#000000][size=3]
(b) [color=red][b]Under penalty of one stroke[/b][/color], outside the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Bunker"]bunker[/url][/i] keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Hole"]hole[/url][/i] and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Bunker"]bunker[/url][/i] the ball may be dropped.[/size][/color]

I wouldn't be surprised if playing it as it lied was the best choice, though it might not have been.

[Colin L]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418017287' post='10560721']
If a ball touches GUR, it's in GUR. If a ball touches a bunker, it's in the bunker. Your ball touched each, and was therefore in each: that is, in GUR in a bunker.
[/quote]

My first reaction is, "Oh no it isn't!" But I will think more carefully before committing myself.

Bingo, are you saying that the outside of the line marking the GUR was exactly on the margin of the bunker - as best you could tell?

[Stuart_G]

I think the important point is that the determination on 1) whether it is in the bunker and 2) whether it is in GUR are two independent determinations. The ball could be in one or the other but it also can be in both. Even if the intent of whomever marked the GUR was that it was only outside the bunker but if the two boundaries were close enough both conditions could certainly apply.

However, from the OP's description, it's not clear how the GUR was marked. He said it was marked but also said:

[quote]It was hard to find an exact edge[/quote]

Was this referring to the edge of the bunker or the edge of the GUR or both? Almost sounds like the edge of the bunker was damaged and that was the cause for the GUR. If that's the case, then the determination on whether it was in the bunker or not could be tricky. An important thing to remember is that: the margin of a bunker (unlike a water hazard) do not extend vertically upward. Typically, if the ball is touching the sand in the bunker then the ball is in the bunker. If it isn't, it's not.

[Colin L]

A more considered opinion. The ball cannot be 30% in the bunker and the rest in GUR. The margins of neither GUR nor the bunker extend upwards and so we are only concerned with where the ball is touching the ground and that has to be either in the bunker on in the GUR. Perhaps the OP is thinking that the overhanging parts of the ball are what you judge by, but they are not.

I am not a mathematician but I expect that the ball could in theory touch the ground on both sides of a one dimensional line between the two areas. In practical terms, however, you should consider that the ball touches the ground at a point. So, take a close look at the ball and determine that it is touching the ground on one side or the other in the same way as you would determine whether a ball is in GUR on its own or in a bunker on its own, or on or off a putting green.

The application of two different sets of rules to one ball just doesn't work. Take the putting green example. If my ball were considered both on and off the green and I lifted it, I would at one and the same time be sanctioned to do so by Rule 16-1b and penalised for doing so by Rule 18-2. It's just not workable.

[Stuart_G]

Colin, No disagreement with your clarification of the boundary definitions and the importance of where the ball actually touches vs part of the ball being over a boundary. However, just a few minor points.

[quote]The application of two different sets of rules to one ball just doesn't work.[/quote]

It has to be able to work.

1) Unlike the example with the green vs "through the green" - which can not overlap, there is nothing in the rules to say that the boundaries of the Bunker and GUR have to match or sync up, they can certainly overlap. The committee can place a GUR boundary anywhere on the course - independent of other boundaries on the course. Also, a spray paint can is not the most precise way to draw a line so an overlap could easily occur even if it wasn't the intent.

2) even if they did not overlap, the ball could be in the bunker and part of the players stance could be in GUR.

[Newby]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418031599' post='10560967']
[color=#282828]1) The committee can place a GUR boundary anywhere on the course[/quote][/color]

[color=#282828]Pretty pointless to place it in a water hazard [/color]

[quote]2) even if they did not overlap, the ball could be in the bunker and part of the players stance could be in GUR.
[/quote]

There is only one rule involved here 25-1b(ii).

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418044585' post='10561249']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418031599' post='10560967']
2) even if they did not overlap, the ball could be in the bunker and part of the players stance could be in GUR.
[/quote]

There is only one rule involved here 25-1b(ii).
[/quote]

Sorry, just need a little clarification - were you implying anything in my post was actually contrary to that (assuming the ball really is in the bunker)?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418030225' post='10560955']
A more considered opinion. The ball cannot be 30% in the bunker and the rest in GUR. The margins of neither GUR nor the bunker extend upwards and so we are only concerned with where the ball is touching the ground and that has to be either in the bunker on in the GUR. Perhaps the OP is thinking that the overhanging parts of the ball are what you judge by, but they are not.


[/quote]

Not only is Stuart right that your ball could be in a bunker and your stance in GUR, but if you imagine the bottom center of a ball resting on sand and the outside margin of the ball extending across a grass edge of a GUR line and touching that grass (the grass of course being higher than the ground) it would again be in both. (That's how I imagined the OP's 30%/70% statement to work.)

[rogolf]

A ball can be in two different "sections" of the course at the same time - think of a course where a lateral water hazard borders a bunker and the red line is painted in the bunker. A ball can be laying on sand touching the red line.
Same situation here - the OP says the ball is touching the bunker (30%) and the GUR (70%). So it's in the bunker and in GUR (even if it's not in the GUR, the GUR could interfere with his stance or area of intended swing). In any case of interference, he's entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b(ii). If he's a normal player (wants free relief), he must drop it in the bunker.

[Newby]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418044927' post='10561257']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418044585' post='10561249']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418031599' post='10560967']
2) even if they did not overlap, the ball could be in the bunker and part of the players stance could be in GUR.
[/quote]

There is only one rule involved here 25-1b(ii).
[/quote]

Sorry, just need a little clarification - were you implying anything in my post was actually contrary to that (assuming the ball really is in the bunker)?
[/quote]

[size=4]No. I was commenting on your response to Colin where he said "[i][color=#282828][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]The application of two different sets of rules to one ball just doesn't work".[/background][/color][/i][/size]
[size=4][color=#282828]You responded[i] "[/i][/color][i][b][color=#ff0000]It[/color][/b][color=#282828] has to be able to work". (I read [/color][color=#ff0000][b]it [/b][/color][color=#282828]to mean two sets of rules)[/color][/i][/size]
[color=#282828]I was pointing out that in your example there was only one rule (not two sets).[/color]

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418052401' post='10561779']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418044927' post='10561257']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1418044585' post='10561249']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1418031599' post='10560967']
2) even if they did not overlap, the ball could be in the bunker and part of the players stance could be in GUR.
[/quote]

There is only one rule involved here 25-1b(ii).
[/quote]

Sorry, just need a little clarification - were you implying anything in my post was actually contrary to that (assuming the ball really is in the bunker)?
[/quote]

[size=4]No. I was commenting on your response to Colin where he said "[i][color=#282828][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]The application of two different sets of rules to one ball just doesn't work".[/background][/color][/i][/size]
[size=4][color=#282828]You responded[i] "[/i][/color][i][b][color=#ff0000]It[/color][/b][color=#282828] has to be able to work". (I read [/color][color=#ff0000][b]it [/b][/color][color=#282828]to mean two sets of rules)[/color][/i][/size]
[color=#282828]I was pointing out that in your example there was only one rule (not two sets).[/color]
[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification. I was actually referring to "it" as the ROG in general working in the context of two conditions not two separate rules but then I also admit I did miss that detail of Colin's post.

[joey2aces]

in tournament play you can always play 2 balls and check with the committee afterwards.

[Colin L]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1418049301' post='10561535']
A ball can be in two different "sections" of the course at the same time - think of a course where a lateral water hazard borders a bunker and the red line is painted in the bunker. A ball can be laying on sand touching the red line.
Same situation here - the OP says the ball is touching the bunker (30%) and the GUR (70%). So it's in the bunker and in GUR (even if it's not in the GUR, the GUR could interfere with his stance or area of intended swing). In any case of interference, he's entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b(ii). If he's a normal player (wants free relief), he must drop it in the bunker.
[/quote]

I think we are talking about different situations and not really at odds. My contention that the ball had to be in either GUR or the bunker was based on the premise that the margins of the GUR and the bunker were immediately adjacent to each other- side by side with no gap between and no overlap. Perhaps that's not what the OP meant. If the GUR line was in the bunker, that as you say is a different matter. A ball in casual water in GUR comes to mind as another example.

I am reminded of the Edinburgh story of two women at first floor windows on opposite sides of a street having a heated argument. "These two will never agree," observed a passer-by, "They are arguing from different premises."

Sorry - my coat is on already.

[TheFinnster]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1418012917' post='10560475']
Quick dilemma here. Was playing a round on Saturday (4ball matchplay). My tee shot finds the edge of a bunker with a worn front edge which then went into marked GUR. It was hard to find an exact edge (hence the GUR, but I would say that 30% of the ball was in the bunker, and the rest was GUR. I ended up playing it as it lied. Was I right?
[/quote]Play 2 balls, check with committee after. But playing it as it lies is always a "right" decision!

[Colin L]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418048074' post='10561421']
.....if you imagine the bottom center of a ball resting on sand and the outside margin of the ball extending across a grass edge of a GUR line and touching that grass (the grass of course being higher than the ground) it would again be in both.......
[/quote]

Are you saying that the ball in this illustration is not on the green because a bit of it is touching the long grass?

[Newby]

Colin

That's a poor analogy (and you know it}.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418055894' post='10562037']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418048074' post='10561421']
.....if you imagine the bottom center of a ball resting on sand and the outside margin of the ball extending across a grass edge of a GUR line and touching that grass (the grass of course being higher than the ground) it would again be in both.......
[/quote]

Are you saying that the ball in this illustration is not on the green because a bit of it is touching the long grass?
[/quote]

I said nothing about a ball being on a green, the topic of which I view as a distraction at this time.

What I was in fact saying is that your position stated in your post #5 is wrong. Since in that post you were getting down to "mathematics" I'll say that if you measure closely enough, no lie is flat, and the orb of a ball is capable of touching two things at once -- and that's particularly easy to do when Ground Under Repair includes all grass within it (among other things) and grass is far from one dimensional and certainly not likely to be on the same plane as the sand in the bunker.

[Colin L]

[attachment=2527755:surrender.jpeg]

[Sawgrass]

That's pretty darn funny!

[Bingo1976]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418048074' post='10561421']
[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1418030225' post='10560955']
A more considered opinion. The ball cannot be 30% in the bunker and the rest in GUR. The margins of neither GUR nor the bunker extend upwards and so we are only concerned with where the ball is touching the ground and that has to be either in the bunker on in the GUR. Perhaps the OP is thinking that the overhanging parts of the ball are what you judge by, but they are not.


[/quote]

Not only is Stuart right that your ball could be in a bunker and your stance in GUR, but if you imagine the bottom center of a ball resting on sand and the outside margin of the ball extending across a grass edge of a GUR line and touching that grass (the grass of course being higher than the ground) it would again be in both. (That's how I imagined the OP's 30%/70% statement to work.)
[/quote]

Some calrification - the ball was, to my mind, on the edge of the bunker. The GUR was marked outside of the bunker by the usual white line, but the edge of the bunker was a raggedy mess of grass and sand, and that is where the ball was. One foot was in GUR, one was in sand to play any legitimate shot, the ball had sand behind it that was impacting the strike.

Now, this was only a friendly match, so no committee involved other than the other cart. I had 3 options it seems - drop in bunker, drop on the grass outside of the GUR, not nearer the hole, and play it as it lies. I chose the latter, took 7 and lost the hole to a 4, so it was probably a moot point (especially as I jammed a 10 footer in on 18 to win 1 up, but I was sondering what to do in a proper match or strokeplay event.

[Sawgrass]

Bingo, here's the complete definition of a bunker. We don't have a picture of your situation in our heads like you do. If the ball is touching the sand or bare earth that's part of a bunker then it's in the bunker. If it was simply on grass at the edge of the bunker then it was not.

Bunker
A “bunker’’ is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker

All that considered, was it in or out?

Edit: by the way, if it's too hard a call to make as to whether the ball is in or out of the bunker you can either ask an official on the spot, play two balls and ask later if it's stroke play and if you follow the proper procedure, or do what you did and play it as it lies. When it's impractical or impossible to involve an official I'd take the high road and play it as it lies as you did -- whether it's a formal tournament or not.

[rogolf]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418101779' post='10565913']
Bingo, here's the complete definition of a bunker. We don't have a picture of your situation in our heads like you do. If the ball is touching the sand or bare earth that's part of a bunker then it's in the bunker. If it was simply on grass at the edge of the bunker then it was not.

Bunker
A "bunker'' is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker

All that considered, was it in or out?

Edit: by the way, if it's too hard a call to make as to whether the ball is in or out of the bunker you can either ask an official on the spot, [b]play two balls and ask later [/b]if it's stroke play and if you follow the proper procedure, or do what you did and play it as it lies. When it's impractical or impossible to involve an official I'd take the high road and play it as it lies as you did -- whether it's a formal tournament or not.
[/quote]

Original post said match play. There is no option to play two balls in match play. Do what you think is right, and if your opponents don't agree, it's up to them to make a claim (Rule 2-5). A second ball played in match play is a wrong ball - the player loses the hole (since it was 4 ball match play, he is dq'd for the hole).

[Bingo1976]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418101779' post='10565913']
Bingo, here's the complete definition of a bunker. We don't have a picture of your situation in our heads like you do. If the ball is touching the sand or bare earth that's part of a bunker then it's in the bunker. If it was simply on grass at the edge of the bunker then it was not.

Bunker
A “bunker’’ is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker

All that considered, was it in or out?

Edit: by the way, if it's too hard a call to make as to whether the ball is in or out of the bunker you can either ask an official on the spot, play two balls and ask later if it's stroke play and if you follow the proper procedure, or do what you did and play it as it lies. When it's impractical or impossible to involve an official I'd take the high road and play it as it lies as you did -- whether it's a formal tournament or not.
[/quote]

Ok, by that definition, I'd agree it was in the bunker, but only by a couple of dimples. There was no face as such, just a messy meeting of sand and grass.

So even though my stance is in the GUR, the GUR does not count, and I could only proceed by taking an unplayable and dropping in the bunker from an extra shot?

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1418125938' post='10566281']
So even though my stance is in the GUR, the GUR does not count, and I could only proceed by taking an unplayable and dropping in the bunker from an extra shot?
[/quote]

If your stance is in GUR you are still allowed relief under 25-1 (b). It's just that because your ball is in the bunker, your options are different for relief from GUR than they would be if the ball had not been in the bunker. The rule has been quoted a few times so I wont repeat it. The specific options Sawgrass quoted in post #2 are the options you have when the ball is in the bunker.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1418104864' post='10566031']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1418101779' post='10565913']
Bingo, here's the complete definition of a bunker. We don't have a picture of your situation in our heads like you do. If the ball is touching the sand or bare earth that's part of a bunker then it's in the bunker. If it was simply on grass at the edge of the bunker then it was not.

Bunker
A "bunker'' is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker

All that considered, was it in or out?

Edit: by the way, if it's too hard a call to make as to whether the ball is in or out of the bunker you can either ask an official on the spot, [b]play two balls and ask later [/b]if it's stroke play and if you follow the proper procedure, or do what you did and play it as it lies. When it's impractical or impossible to involve an official I'd take the high road and play it as it lies as you did -- whether it's a formal tournament or not.
[/quote]

Original post said match play. There is no option to play two balls in match play. Do what you think is right, and if your opponents don't agree, it's up to them to make a claim (Rule 2-5). A second ball played in match play is a wrong ball - the player loses the hole (since it was 4 ball match play, he is dq'd for the hole).
[/quote]

Yes, the original post did say match, but to be clear in Bingo's post #21 directly preceding mine he asked about stroke play as well: [color="#282828"] " . . . [/color][color=#282828] what to do in a proper match or strokeplay event."[/color]