Green Speed and Putting Poll

[Hstead]

There is a disagreement over the difficulty of putting on greens at the majors, ie Augusta National. One side believes the majors crank the speed up to 13+ to make the greens more difficult to putt. The other side believes the make percentages are higher on faster greens so Augusta is "not difficult to putt well on".

 

So is it harder or easier to putt on major championship greens, in particular Augusta?

 

Have at it, please vote and we will see how the chips fall. Thanks

[Ri_Redneck]

I answered "Easier" to the first and "Harder" to the second mostly due to the wording of the questions. IMHO, faster greens are smoother and putt truer (less affect by grain perhaps?) and are therefore easier to putt. However, most superintendents cut them fast in an attempt to make them harder to putt.

With that being said, ANY supt that approves a flag location where a ball can be dropped straight down beside the cup and it rolls off the green ought to lose his job and be banned from ever having another!!!

BT

[ej002]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1421701209' post='10778125']
I answered "Easier" to the first and "Harder" to the second mostly due to the wording of the questions. IMHO, faster greens are smoother and putt truer (less affect by grain perhaps?) and are therefore easier to putt. However, most superintendents cut them fast in an attempt to make them harder to putt.

With that being said, ANY supt that approves a flag location where a ball can be dropped straight down beside the cup and it rolls off the green ought to lose his job and be banned from ever having another!!!

BT
[/quote]

Would you answer the same way if the super slow greens were as smooth as Augusta?


Put it this way. What would be easier.... August stimping at 13+ or whatever or August stimping at 8?

[Hstead]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1421708333' post='10778897']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1421701209' post='10778125']
I answered "Easier" to the first and "Harder" to the second mostly due to the wording of the questions. IMHO, faster greens are smoother and putt truer (less affect by grain perhaps?) and are therefore easier to putt. However, most superintendents cut them fast in an attempt to make them harder to putt.

With that being said, ANY supt that approves a flag location where a ball can be dropped straight down beside the cup and it rolls off the green ought to lose his job and be banned from ever having another!!!

BT
[/quote]

Would you answer the same way if the super slow greens were as smooth as Augusta?


Put it this way. What would be easier.... August stimping at 13+ or whatever or August stimping at 8?
[/quote]

Oh wait, didn't you hear, the make percentage is .0056% more from 18 feet at Augusta so they are easier to putt? Just ask Richie.

[ksuchris2000]

Questions probably are not worded Correctly.

"Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='ksuchris2000' timestamp='1421709072' post='10778975']
Questions probably are not worded Correctly.

"Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
[/quote]


nope and she deserves every one

[chrisgilly09]

Das sexisss

[FatReed]

As per a post in the thread that prompted this poll. . . the tour players never seem to complain about the greens being too fast to putt on - they do, however, complain about greens too firm to hold approach shots - typical of US Open venues. Conversely, the tour players do complain about greens that are too slow. I do not know if there are statistics to support tour players putting is worse on slow greens compared to fast greens - or vice versa- but they do prefer faster greens. Whatever the perception, it would interesting to see the data comparing tour level putting on faster versus slower greens. I've never heard anyone from the PGA or Augusta say they promote faster greens because it makes putting more difficult? I do know tour players do not like greens that play slow - which is relevant to their tour level course expectations, but irrelevant to what amateurs prefer and/or more routinely experience. As iTeach has stated repeatedly, it's impossible accurately compare tour and amateur skill level players playing courses that Typically demonstrate equally dramatic difference in terms course condition.

[Hstead]

''The average golfer wouldn't have a clue on how to putt these greens,'' said Tom Watson, after shooting 71 in Thursday's opening round of the Masters.

 

http://www.golf.com/ap-news/furyk-byrd-master-memorials-greens

 

DUBLIN, Ohio (AP) The PGA Tour and some of its most prominent players said the rough was too high, the furrowed bunkers too difficult and the greens too fast last year at the Memorial Tournament.

 

Nicklaus vowed earlier in the week that one thing that he wouldn't change - despite entreaties from several pros a year ago - was the marble-floor fast greens at the rolling layout in suburban Columbus. He said that during his incomparable march toward 18 major championships, he liked to play a difficult course two weeks before each major to prepare for the tests ahead.

 

 

 

Evidently Jack believes making his greens fast makes his course more difficult and the year before quite a few pros complained that they were fast.

[Hstead]

Here is another complaining that 13 was too fast and they should be 10 or 11.

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/players-piling-course-setup-pga-championship

[color=#2B3943][size=4]"They only need to be 10 1/2, 11 on the Stimpmeter. They don't need to be 13, and they don't need to be brown." Asked how he played the 17th hole, Flesch said, "I might have hit the best shot of 156 guys there today. I hit 4-iron straight up into the air, landed literally eight yards on the green, eight, ten yards short of the hole, and went right over the green into the back."[/size][/color]

[FatReed]

''The average golfer wouldn't have a clue on how to putt these greens,'' said Tom Watson, after shooting 71 in Thursday's opening round of the Masters.

 

http://www.golf.com/ap-news/furyk-byrd-master-memorials-greens

 

DUBLIN, Ohio (AP) The PGA Tour and some of its most prominent players said the rough was too high, the furrowed bunkers too difficult and the greens too fast last year at the Memorial Tournament.

 

Nicklaus vowed earlier in the week that one thing that he wouldn't change - despite entreaties from several pros a year ago - was the marble-floor fast greens at the rolling layout in suburban Columbus. He said that during his incomparable march toward 18 major championships, he liked to play a difficult course two weeks before each major to prepare for the tests ahead.

 

 

 

Evidently Jack believes making his greens fast makes his course more difficult and the year before quite a few pros complained that they were fast.

 

Hstead, unless I missed it, your reference states greens being 'too fast' - but nothing about too fast for putting. The reporter seems to be suggesting the greens were too firm. As per my prior post, the pros do complain about greens being too firm (to hold approach shots). Even if taken to imply the greens were too fast for putting, what you've presented is an anecdote. I'm not going to clog this thread up with counter references that can be easily obtained. The tour players complain about greens that putt too slow far more often than they ever do about the converse.

[Hstead]

http://nypost.com/2012/08/26/golfers-complain-about-too-fast-greens-at-bethpage-black/

Fat, they complain when they are too slow for sure, never said they didn't, but they have also complained when greens get too fast, like the articles I have linked to. The article said the greens were too fast, not too hard. Read the articles.

[Hstead]

Here is another good article. Jaime Diaz is comparing the British Open to the other majors with greens that are faster. It seems to me Ricky evidently thinks 10.5 at the Open is easier to putt on than 14 at Augusta?

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/2014-07/gwar-jaime-diaz-final-say-0728

[color=#333333]"On 15- and 20-footers, you could use a little more right hand and hit them with good 'make' speed," said Fowler, who one-putted seven straight holes on the final nine. "You're not scared of those like you are at Augusta."[/color]

[demand]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1421717991' post='10780005']
Here is another complaining that 13 was too fast and they should be 10 or 11.

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/players-piling-course-setup-pga-championship

[color=#2B3943][size=4]"They only need to be 10 1/2, 11 on the Stimpmeter. They don't need to be 13, and they don't need to be brown." Asked how he played the 17th hole, Flesch said, "I might have hit the best shot of 156 guys there today. I hit 4-iron straight up into the air, landed literally eight yards on the green, eight, ten yards short of the hole, and went right over the green into the back."[/size][/color]
[/quote]

This would go with what Ritchie is saying that green speed makes courses more difficult because you can't hold greens not because it is more difficult to putt.
Also you worded the questions in the poll to almost guarantee everyone would agree with you.

I've heard more people complain about greens being too slow than too fast ten fold. Why would people complain if it was easier to putt on slow greens?

[Hstead]

I linked to articles where they are specifically talking about the speed, not firmness. The Memorial is a perfect example. It rains dang near every year at the Memorial and the greens are often soft not too firm. In the article I linked to, Boo complained because he hit a wedge that spun off the green and into the creek because the speed of the green, which was soft.

Sure they complain about greens being too slow, but that does not mean that slow greens are more difficult to putt than fast greens either. My entire point was that the majors increase the speed of the greens to make them more difficult, which in my opinion is exactly what they do. They do not slow the greens down to make it play harder or putt harder for that matter. Do you disagree?

How would you have worded the question? I selected the questions because that is what I said on the other thread, "the majors increase the speed to make them harder to putt not easier".

[FatReed]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1421719558' post='10780257']
http://nypost.com/2012/08/26/golfers-complain-about-too-fast-greens-at-bethpage-black/

Fat, they complain when they are too slow for sure, never said they didn't, but they have also complained when greens get too fast, like the articles I have linked to. The article said the greens were too fast, not too hard. Read the articles.
[/quote]

Hstead, I respect your posts and insight. I am confident you are correct that there are tour players who have come across greens they found too fast, even for their liking. I absolutely believe Augusta's greens represent a more formidable challenge to tour players compared to greens seen on the majority of courses throughout the rest of the season. What I do question is whether this is due to the speed of the greens?

[demand]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1421720552' post='10780455']
I linked to articles where they are specifically talking about the speed, not firmness. The Memorial is a perfect example. It rains dang near every year at the Memorial and the greens are often soft not too firm. In the article I linked to, Boo complained because he hit a wedge that spun off the green and into the creek because the speed of the green, which was soft.

Sure they complain about greens being too slow, but that does not mean that slow greens are more difficult to putt than fast greens either. My entire point was that the majors increase the speed of the greens to make them more difficult, which in my opinion is exactly what they do. They do not slow the greens down to make it play harder or putt harder for that matter. Do you disagree?

How would you have worded the question? I selected the questions because that is what I said on the other thread, "the majors increase the speed to make them harder to putt not easier".
[/quote]

Yes I disagree they make them faster so they are more difficult to hold. It's rained at Augusta many times and they always say scores are likely to go lower because guys can fire at pins not jar more long putts because they are slower.

[Hstead]

[quote name='demand' timestamp='1421721977' post='10780659']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1421720552' post='10780455']
I linked to articles where they are specifically talking about the speed, not firmness. The Memorial is a perfect example. It rains dang near every year at the Memorial and the greens are often soft not too firm. In the article I linked to, Boo complained because he hit a wedge that spun off the green and into the creek because the speed of the green, which was soft.

Sure they complain about greens being too slow, but that does not mean that slow greens are more difficult to putt than fast greens either. My entire point was that the majors increase the speed of the greens to make them more difficult, which in my opinion is exactly what they do. They do not slow the greens down to make it play harder or putt harder for that matter. Do you disagree?

How would you have worded the question? I selected the questions because that is what I said on the other thread, "the majors increase the speed to make them harder to putt not easier".
[/quote]

Yes I disagree they make them faster so they are more difficult to hold. It's rained at Augusta many times and they always say scores are likely to go lower because guys can fire at pins not jar more long putts because they are slower.
[/quote]

If the greens are the exact same firmness, let's take Augusta for example, do you think they would be easier or harder to putt if the stimp was 9.5 or 14? Personally, I think the greens would be much more difficult to putt at 14 than 9.5. At 14, everything has to be very precise, both the line and the speed. The margin for error is much smaller when the speed is 14 vs 9.5 IMHO.

[demand]

9.5 but only because that's closer to dumps I play on and what I'm used to. Give me an unlimited membership somewhere with fast greens and I'll be loving some 14s.

[FatReed]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1421722310' post='10780709']
[quote name='demand' timestamp='1421721977' post='10780659']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1421720552' post='10780455']
I linked to articles where they are specifically talking about the speed, not firmness. The Memorial is a perfect example. It rains dang near every year at the Memorial and the greens are often soft not too firm. In the article I linked to, Boo complained because he hit a wedge that spun off the green and into the creek because the speed of the green, which was soft.

Sure they complain about greens being too slow, but that does not mean that slow greens are more difficult to putt than fast greens either. My entire point was that the majors increase the speed of the greens to make them more difficult, which in my opinion is exactly what they do. They do not slow the greens down to make it play harder or putt harder for that matter. Do you disagree?

How would you have worded the question? I selected the questions because that is what I said on the other thread, "the majors increase the speed to make them harder to putt not easier".
[/quote]

Yes I disagree they make them faster so they are more difficult to hold. It's rained at Augusta many times and they always say scores are likely to go lower because guys can fire at pins not jar more long putts because they are slower.
[/quote]

If the greens are the exact same firmness, let's take Augusta for example, do you think they would be easier or harder to putt if the stimp was 9.5 or 14? Personally, I think the greens would be much more difficult to putt at 14 than 9.5. At 14, everything has to be very precise, both the line and the speed. The margin for error is much smaller when the speed is 14 vs 9.5 IMHO.
[/quote]
If I had the data, I would present it - so I am not holding out on this. But, I have no doubt there are rounds at Augusta in the same tournament when the green speed varied relatively significantly from one day to the next, e.g., overnight rainfall. If we had access to that data it might provide some insight. That said, even such data would have inherent downsides. For example, the scenario described is a common occurrence during the course of a season, and the players have difficulty adjusting to the SLOWER pace of the greens that occurs overnight. To be fair, I don't think its so much that the greens become slower, as much as it is the overall change in pace the players need to adjust to. I guess another confounding variable would be pin placements that change overnight.

[Hstead]

I know for myself, I have played some practice rounds at State Am qualifiers, US Am qualifiers, etc. when they are rolling 10-ish, and then when the tournament starts they crank them up to 12-ish+ and look out, much harder. Lag putts become much more difficult when the speed starts reaching 12, you have to be so perfect. Any little mistake and you are facing either a 10 footer too far or a 7 footer too short. Once the speed starts going north of 12, there are fewer straight putts as well, as gravity has more time to work on the ball rolling at a slower speed taking more time to get to the hole when they are super fast.

When I was on our greens committee at our course we had a bonus program for our super. If he could average 9.5 or better each month during the golf season, we paid him a bonus. I was in charge or using our stimp and measuring the greens each month which was random. We have some slope and anything over 10.5 on a few of our greens it gets hard to find pin placements and for higher handicaps to keep from 4 putting every green. I know what 12 is like to putt on. 14 would be ridiculous. It takes the touch of a neuro surgeon on greens that fast.

One stat I found regarding Augusta, there have only been three winners in the history of the tournament that went all week with zero three putts. to me, that says one of the guys if not the guy that was putting best that week still had at least one three putt because they are so difficult to putt. I doubt any other tournament can say they have only had three winners that had 0 three putts for the week.

[demand]

You should give him a bonus if you can measure all 18 greens rolling the same speed.

I've played fast greens once you get used to them I like them better. Caddied for 7 years at a course that would run 11-12. The membership had handicaps all over the board. Don't remember anyone complaining putting was too difficult because of speed.

[Hstead]

[quote name='demand' timestamp='1421728888' post='10781397']
You should give him a bonus if you can measure all 18 greens rolling the same speed.

I've played fast greens once you get used to them I like them better. Caddied for 7 years at a course that would run 11-12. The membership had handicaps all over the board. Don't remember anyone complaining putting was too difficult because of speed.
[/quote]

We had two greens that were always a half foot faster because they were newer. I like putting 11 or so also, but you get above 12 and over 13 is ridiculous. When we got our greens near 10 we had a ton of complaints and had to back them down in the 9's. We do have slopes like I said. You couldn't play four of our greens at 13+, literally the ball would not stay on the green. Our course was built in the 20's with small very sloped greens, not meant for speeds that fast.

[knock it close]

Sweet spot for me is about 11. Alot depends on the slope of the greens too. My home track has relatively flat greens, so 12.5 isn't too bad. To me playing faster greens makes you a smarter player because you have to think about what side of the hole you want to be on and where you can and can't miss. I grew up on quick, flat, pure bent greens so I struggle with slower as I feel I have to hit my putts, vs stroke them.

I also guarantee that a lot of people who think they're putting on 11s are actually much closer to 9

[airjammer]

I voted harder and harder...the only reason I voted harder on the last question is because, I haven't experienced a green that is hard and slow. I'm sure it can be done but green speed and green hardness seem to correlate some. Most of the majors seems to be setup to reward more precise approach shots and harder greens punish shots that land on the wrong slope.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1421708333' post='10778897']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1421701209' post='10778125']
I answered "Easier" to the first and "Harder" to the second mostly due to the wording of the questions. IMHO, faster greens are smoother and putt truer (less affect by grain perhaps?) and are therefore easier to putt. However, most superintendents cut them fast in an attempt to make them harder to putt.

With that being said, ANY supt that approves a flag location where a ball can be dropped straight down beside the cup and it rolls off the green ought to lose his job and be banned from ever having another!!!

BT
[/quote]

Would you answer the same way if the super slow greens were as smooth as Augusta?


Put it this way. What would be easier.... August stimping at 13+ or whatever or August stimping at 8?
[/quote]

If there were a question about super slow greens, I would have answered it as "Harder". I have a big problem getting enough speed on the ball on super slow greens. I leave almost all of them short and not many short putts go in!!

What makes greens hard to putt is the contouring of the green and the surrounding area. Visual trickery abounds with golf course design. That's why I always walk a course if at all possible. It gives me the opportunity to study the green and surrounding area FAR better than I can from the green itself. If I have to ride, I usually walk up to the green after my approach and let the other guy drive up.

BTW, I don't think the make percentage from 18', on ANY green of ANY speed, is very high when you have contouring like Augusta.

BT

[bazinky]

I've always been of the opinion that fast greens (and a fast course in general) merely accentuate how your putting (or playing).

For putting this means, that when you put the ball in the proper spot on the green relative to the hole position, it's much easier to make putts. In contrast, put yourself in the wrong spots (above the hole, too far away, wrong side of a ridge, etc.) and your in for a world of hurt. I switched from public to private this season, and the biggest adjustment for me has been learning to hit my iron approaches to the proper spots. On the publics I used to play, I could usually get away with almost anywhere on the green.

In majors, the use of fast green speeds result in a better separation between those putting well, and those putting poorly.

[jaydro]

If the putt percentages were higher for any of the majors I would think it's more due to stronger fields and the players building their schedules to be peaking that time of year.