Interesting USGA Handicap Posting Question

[Sawgrass]

7-2 uses the phrase "practice stroke." It seems to me that all that's required for a stroke to be a practice stroke is for the player's intention to be to practice. I don't see why some bonehead couldn't decide to practice with his ball in play, but I'll openly admit that we're unlikely to see that happen unless the beer if flowing too quickly.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, I was trying to think of any obscure case where 'claiming a practice stroke' would be an advantage over taking the consequences have having taken a 'real stroke'.

The only one that I could think of was a bunker shot where the ball goes OB (for example). If the player claims a practice stroke I would assume that he would get to re-create his original lie (sounds right). Stroke/distance and you are taking a drop into sand where, in my experience, you always get a partially buried lie.

Are there others?

dave

[Cancun]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1423153596' post='10890265']
FWIW, I was trying to think of any obscure case where 'claiming a practice stroke' would be an advantage over taking the consequences have having taken a 'real stroke'.

The only one that I could think of was a bunker shot where the ball goes OB (for example). If the player claims a practice stroke I would assume that he would get to re-create his original lie (sounds right). Stroke/distance and you are taking a drop into sand where, in my experience, you always get a partially buried lie.

Are there others?

dave
[/quote]

Dave: Here’s D – 13-4/37, which allows a player to rake the bunker when he hit the ball OB and he has to drop in the bunker, so there would be no “obscure advantage”.

[b] 13-4/37[/b]

[b] Ball Played from Bunker Is Out of Bounds or Lost; Player Tests Condition of Bunker or Smoothes Footprints Before Dropping Another Ball in Bunker[/b]

[color=#ff0000]Q[/color]. A player plays from a bunker and his ball comes to rest out of bounds or is lost. He smoothes his footprints in the bunker at the place where he must drop a ball under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/#27-1"]27-1[/url] or, before dropping a ball under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/#27-1"]27-1[/url], he takes a few practice swings touching the sand in the bunker. Is the player in breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-4"]13-4[/url]?

[color=#ff0000]A[/color]. No. The prohibitions in Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-4"]13-4[/url] apply only when the player's ball is in the hazard or when it has been lifted from a hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard. In this case, the player's ball has been played from the hazard rather than lifted.

Furthermore, Exception 2 under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-4"]13-4[/url] allows a player, after playing his ball out of a hazard, to smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction. This right overrides any conflicting provisions in other Rules, including Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-2"]13-2[/url].

I hope that helps.


As for the practice stroke to the ball in play, I just emailed my question to the USGA, so I will let you know what they say. I’ll be happy with any ruling, but personally I believe that a practice stroke could be made at the ball in play in some circumstances.

[Cancun]

Gentlemen:

As said in the post above, I sent a question to the USGA. Here is what I sent:

[quote]
After his first stroke from the teeing ground in a par 4, a player is on the fairway, 130 yards from the hole, waiting for the group ahead to clear the green.

Considering his poor performance in the previous holes, he decides to [u]practice[/u] some pitch shots, so he aims at the 100 yard marker in the middle of the fairway and makes a stroke [u]at his ball in play[/u] towards that marker. He makes 6 practice strokes at his ball in total, ending up near to the place where he was after his tee shot. Then, the group ahead leaves the green, so he lifts his ball and replaces it exactly where it was after his first stroke, reaches the green and 2 putts, claiming that he made a par.

The definition of [i]Ball in Play[/i] suggests that the ball was in play all the time (except for the moment when he lifted it in order to replace it to where it was after the tee stroke), so every stroke counts, not to mention a penalty for moving his ball and playing from the wrong place…

On the other hand, Rule 7-2 talks about a [u]practice stroke. [/u]As I understand it, it would be a stroke (as defined in the Rules), with the [i]intention[/i] or purpose of practicing (clearly not intended as part of the play of a hole). If that is correct, he would be in breach of Rule 7-2 and also in breach of 18-2a. This could be a 2 stroke penalty under 1-4/15 for one action that breaches 2 Rules; the more severe penalty applies… Since the player made several practice strokes, it could be D 1-4/12 (3), where the player breaches Rule 7-2 several times (only one penalty is applied).

Is it possible to practice with the ball in play? In the definition of stroke the intention to hit the ball is key. Would that make any difference in terms of the ruling if the intention is to move the ball as part of the play of a hole or as practice? Decision 18-2a/23 comes to mind, where a player is not considered to have made a stroke, even when he intentionally moved his ball by striking it with his club’s head… the player was angry. In this case the player was practicing.

Lastly (as part of this questions), what is his score for the hole? Why?
[/quote]

Here is the relevant part of the answer (remember I can’t copy it)

She and her colleagues determined that, since the player was intending to practice as he hit his ball in play back and forth, [u]he’s not deemed to have made a stroke and Rule 7-2 is applicable. [/u]

In match play, he lost the hole. In stroke play he breaches R 7-2 (practice) and R 18-2a (ball in play moved). One action breaches 2 Rules, a single penalty applies (2 strokes under 7-2) and the ball must be replaced. If the player had not replaced, he would have incurred in 2 more penalty strokes.

He practiced several times, but as per D 1-4/12 a single penalty is applied.

She didn't answer this directly, but it's clear that the player's score was 6… as explained above.

I hope this helps. The important note here is that the i[u]ntent is important[/u] (as in many Rulings) and a player could practice with his ball in play in some unusual circumstances (like the ones described in my question)

Have a good night gentlemen!

[Augster]

Thanks Cancun. Their ruling is exactly in line with what they've told me in the past about 18-2a/23. Also 18-2a/20. It's only a stroke if you are taking that stroke to score.

It's also the reason I've asked them to revise the definition of "stroke".

Thanks for the follow-up Cancun.

[DaveLeeNC]

Cancun, thanks for the follow-up.

And given all that I don't see the logic that leads the USGA to suggest (as reported earlier in this thread) that a player who 'abandons' (not a USGA term) a hole but continues to hit a few shots for purposes of practice, regardless of how he does it, could possibly be playing 'outside the rules of golf' (thus requiring him to post via Rule 4-2).

BTW, I assume that when you are on 'hole N' and do whatever you do where-ever you do it, it counts against your score on hole N until you have put a ball in play on hole N+1.

dave

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424010718' post='10956777']
Cancun, thanks for the follow-up.

And given all that I don't see the logic that leads the USGA to suggest (as reported earlier in this thread) that a player who 'abandons' (not a USGA term) a hole but continues to hit a few shots for purposes of practice, regardless of how he does it, could possibly be playing 'outside the rules of golf' (thus requiring him to post via Rule 4-2).

BTW, I assume that when you are on 'hole N' and do whatever you do where-ever you do it, it counts against your score on hole N until you have put a ball in play on hole N+1.

dave
[/quote]

IMO deciding to practice during a hole while knowing it is against the Rules is effectively a decision to play outside the Rules of Golf. (Par plus handicap strokes solution.) Deciding to hit a few practice shots while ignorant of the fact that there is a penalty for doing so is making an error which is addressed by penalty. (ESC solution.)

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1424017767' post='10957361']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424010718' post='10956777']
Cancun, thanks for the follow-up.

And given all that I don't see the logic that leads the USGA to suggest (as reported earlier in this thread) that a player who 'abandons' (not a USGA term) a hole but continues to hit a few shots for purposes of practice, regardless of how he does it, could possibly be playing 'outside the rules of golf' (thus requiring him to post via Rule 4-2).

BTW, I assume that when you are on 'hole N' and do whatever you do where-ever you do it, it counts against your score on hole N until you have put a ball in play on hole N+1.

dave
[/quote]

IMO deciding to practice during a hole while knowing it is against the Rules is effectively a decision to play outside the Rules of Golf. (Par plus handicap strokes solution.) Deciding to hit a few practice shots while ignorant of the fact that there is a penalty for doing so is making an error which is addressed by penalty. (ESC solution.)
[/quote]

SG, I admit to pushing some edges here. But the very fact that you picked up a ball without holing out is a gross violation of the Rules of Golf. So in this (somewhat extreme) perspective you can't pick up and apply 4-1 because the very act of picking up does not allow you to invoke 4-1.

Or maybe that act is 'the exception' because it could be viewed as a 'triggering event' (for lack of a better term). The whole thing would be simpler, in my mind, if the USGA Handicap Manual were to directly handle the process of 'abandoning a hole' (when can you do it, how do you do it, what are the post-abandon implications, etc).

dave

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424031600' post='10958575']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1424017767' post='10957361']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424010718' post='10956777']
Cancun, thanks for the follow-up.

And given all that I don't see the logic that leads the USGA to suggest (as reported earlier in this thread) that a player who 'abandons' (not a USGA term) a hole but continues to hit a few shots for purposes of practice, regardless of how he does it, could possibly be playing 'outside the rules of golf' (thus requiring him to post via Rule 4-2).

BTW, I assume that when you are on 'hole N' and do whatever you do where-ever you do it, it counts against your score on hole N until you have put a ball in play on hole N+1.

dave
[/quote]

IMO deciding to practice during a hole while knowing it is against the Rules is effectively a decision to play outside the Rules of Golf. (Par plus handicap strokes solution.) Deciding to hit a few practice shots while ignorant of the fact that there is a penalty for doing so is making an error which is addressed by penalty. (ESC solution.)
[/quote]

SG, I admit to pushing some edges here. But the very fact that you picked up a ball without holing out is a gross violation of the Rules of Golf. So in this (somewhat extreme) perspective you can't pick up and apply 4-1 because the very act of picking up does not allow you to invoke 4-1.

Or maybe that act is 'the exception' because it could be viewed as a 'triggering event' (for lack of a better term). The whole thing would be simpler, in my mind, if the USGA Handicap Manual were to directly handle the process of 'abandoning a hole' (when can you do it, how do you do it, what are the post-abandon implications, etc).

dave
[/quote]

In match play players may pick up without violating the ROG if they simply want to concede a hole. It's not a "gross violation." And in stroke play you can withdraw. In any case, we're talking about posting to your handicap here, right? Even a player who is DQ may have to post a handicap score depending on the circumstances.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1424032798' post='10958647']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424031600' post='10958575']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1424017767' post='10957361']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424010718' post='10956777']
Cancun, thanks for the follow-up.

And given all that I don't see the logic that leads the USGA to suggest (as reported earlier in this thread) that a player who 'abandons' (not a USGA term) a hole but continues to hit a few shots for purposes of practice, regardless of how he does it, could possibly be playing 'outside the rules of golf' (thus requiring him to post via Rule 4-2).

BTW, I assume that when you are on 'hole N' and do whatever you do where-ever you do it, it counts against your score on hole N until you have put a ball in play on hole N+1.

dave
[/quote]

IMO deciding to practice during a hole while knowing it is against the Rules is effectively a decision to play outside the Rules of Golf. (Par plus handicap strokes solution.) Deciding to hit a few practice shots while ignorant of the fact that there is a penalty for doing so is making an error which is addressed by penalty. (ESC solution.)
[/quote]

SG, I admit to pushing some edges here. But the very fact that you picked up a ball without holing out is a gross violation of the Rules of Golf. So in this (somewhat extreme) perspective you can't pick up and apply 4-1 because the very act of picking up does not allow you to invoke 4-1.

Or maybe that act is 'the exception' because it could be viewed as a 'triggering event' (for lack of a better term). The whole thing would be simpler, in my mind, if the USGA Handicap Manual were to directly handle the process of 'abandoning a hole' (when can you do it, how do you do it, what are the post-abandon implications, etc).

dave
[/quote]

In match play players may pick up without violating the ROG if they simply want to concede a hole. It's not a "gross violation." And in stroke play you can withdraw. In any case, we're talking about posting to your handicap here, right? Even a player who is DQ may have to post a handicap score depending on the circumstances.
[/quote]

SG, my error - I forgot that 'gross violation' is a term used by the USGA. I meant 'extreme' (or more completely a 'worse violation' than is practicing).

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

I sent my question regarding the application of 4-1 vs. 4-2 (when 7-2 - practice strokes might be involved). The context (full text of the question is quoted below) is a golfer who hits a tee shot OB, puts a second tee ball in play expecting it to be playable, and finds the 2nd ball also OB. He then 'abandons the hole' (a description - not a term that exists in the USGA Handicap System) and proceeds to hit one or more shots from somewhere on the hole for purposes of practice.

The answer was short and sweet - strokes plus par (as others have clearly stated). I just needed to get that answer for myself.

So in thinking about this I will personally just never hit 'additional shots' after abandoning a hole (not something that I did regularly, but I have done it). That said, I see the following 'applications of this principle' - and the principle seems to me to be that anything that you do after abandoning a hole is NOT a practice stroke, but is playing outside the rules of golf. For example ....

1) 2nd tee shot found OB, for whatever stupid reason you take a practice shot from that area, and you then proceed back to the tee and finish the hole. Here you apply 7-2, add up your strokes, ESC it for posting, accept the ire from your partners, and move on. I assume there is no question about this.

2) 2nd tee shot found OB, same stupid practice shot, go back to the tee and pump yet another ball OB. At that point you decide to abandon the hole. I ASSUME that in this case you apply 7-2 to the practice stroke, and then "most likely score" as the basis for posting. I guess.

3) 2nd tee shot found OB,same stupid practice shot, and go back to the tee to hit your next tee shot. But this time you see that the group behind you is leaving the green headed for your tee. So you don't hit that next tee shot and move on to the next tee. Strokes plus par is, I guess, the right answer in this case.

That is my best understanding and it isn't a crusade that I would choose to take on, even if I think this is flawed.

But I wonder about something. Assume that you start a round with 15 clubs. And you discover this on the 3rd tee and 'take one club out of play' as described in Rule 4-4. This seems like the same thing here - you played two holes 'outside the Rules of Golf' (I used quotes because I don't think that this or practice strokes put you outside the rules of golf). Do you post strokes plus par for holes 1 and 2?

dave

My Question for Reference

A question has come up recently with the golfers that I play with regularly. We all carry 'official' USGA handicaps and that is the basis that we use to level the competition (and we find it most useful, BTW).

The question (as best as we understand how to evaluate these circumstances) revolves around the application of Handicap Rule 4-1 vs. Rule 4-2 plus the Rules of Golf per Rule 7-2 (practice strokes). The context, if it matters, is an informal (call it 'social') competition between multiple foursomes where each foursome is a single team (not a format covered by the Rules of Golf). This is not a competition with a 'formal committee' for the competition and is not the kind of round that should generate (for handicap purposes) a T-score. For purposes of this question the team hole score for the scenario in question (in this informal competition) is the sum of the 2 best scores (after application of handicap strokes) of the four team members.

Assume a scenario where Golfer A hits a ball that is clearly OB (or lost but not in a hazard - there is no issue here). He doesn't even bother to declare a provisional and hits another ball off the tee (now his ball in play). Surprisingly when he gets to where his second ball ended, he finds that it is also OB. He "declares himself out of the hole" (quoted because this is not a recognized USGA term) as, at this point, he cannot help his team score. The question is how to properly post A's score on this hole (for handicap purposes).

If player A simply picks up his ball and proceeds to the next tee, it is abundantly clear that Rule 4-1 is to be applied. There is no question in this case.

But the question revolves around two additional scenarios.

1) After Player A surprisingly finds his second ball OB he still 'declares himself out of the hole' (we realize that this is not a term recognized by the Rules of Golf or the Handicap Manual), and he drops a ball 'somewhere in the vicinity of where his last ball went OB'. He hits that shot for practice and then picks up that ball and proceeds to the next hole ball. For posting purposes ...

- can the fact that he hit another 'practice shot' be ignored (as kind of a 'continuation' of play much like could happen in Match Play when a golfer is conceded a a hole - obviously it is not exactly the same thing). So just apply Handicap Rule 4-1 assuming that he would have returned to the tee to hit a third tee shot

- should this 'additional stroke' be considered a practice stroke and be part of the 4-1 Rule score calculation (applying Rule of Golf 7-2)

- has this golfer now 'played the hole' outside the rules of golf so that Handicap Rule 4-2 is now the rule to be applied for posting purposes

- if this single 'additional' stroke is played from a place bearing little or no resemblance to where his second tee shot ended, does that matter

2) This is exactly the same as #1 except the golfer, after declaring himself out of the hole, hits a second additional stroke (after the first additional stroke described in #1 above and from near where the first additional stroke ended). Or maybe he even holes out (although his results are NOT accepted within this informal competition as 'counting'). Does this change the answer and, if so, how.

Thank you for your help in this matter.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424442968' post='10990921']


But I wonder about something. Assume that you start a round with 15 clubs. And you discover this on the 3rd tee and 'take one club out of play' as described in Rule 4-4. This seems like the same thing here - you played two holes 'outside the Rules of Golf' (I used quotes because I don't think that this or practice strokes put you outside the rules of golf). Do you post strokes plus par for holes 1 and 2?


[/quote]

Dave, what you describe is not playing "outside the Rules of Golf." It is simply unintentionally violating them. There's a penalty proscribed and should be counted in your posting if it doesn't get ESCed away.

If, on the other hand, you had intentionally started the round with 15 clubs because that's what you wanted to do that day that sounds like deciding to play Outside the Rules. But if after two holes you change your mind and finish the round trying to play within the Rules, I'd count par plus strokes for the first two holes and then post away.

I think it gets back to the same principle. Unless your poor play and mistakes lead you to a higher score, you end up posting par plus stokes. Your handicap is pressed lower unless your best efforts cause it to go up. For those of us who desire a lower handicap, this sounds counter-intuitive. But it's better than the alternative where one's handicap goes up because of a conscious decision he's made.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1424444717' post='10991129']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424442968' post='10990921']
But I wonder about something. Assume that you start a round with 15 clubs. And you discover this on the 3rd tee and 'take one club out of play' as described in Rule 4-4. This seems like the same thing here - you played two holes 'outside the Rules of Golf' (I used quotes because I don't think that this or practice strokes put you outside the rules of golf). Do you post strokes plus par for holes 1 and 2?


[/quote]

Dave, what you describe is not playing "outside the Rules of Golf." It is simply unintentionally violating them. There's a penalty proscribed and should be counted in your posting if it doesn't get ESCed away.

If, on the other hand, you had intentionally started the round with 15 clubs because that's what you wanted to do that day that sounds like deciding to play Outside the Rules. But if after two holes you change your mind and finish the round trying to play within the Rules, I'd count par plus strokes for the first two holes and then post away.

I think it gets back to the same principle. Unless your poor play and mistakes lead you to a higher score, you end up posting par plus stokes. Your handicap is pressed lower unless your best efforts cause it to go up. For those of us who desire a lower handicap, this sounds counter-intuitive. But it's better than the alternative where one's handicap goes up because of a conscious decision he's made.
[/quote]

SG, for clarification why is 15 clubs 'not outside the rules of golf' and practice strokes is 'outside the rules of golf'? They are both well-covered INSIDE the rules of golf.

My best guess is that the differentiation is 'intent' and the real purpose here is, as best as the USGA can do, to disallow intentional stuff that could increase your index. Intentional carrying of 15 clubs is treated differently than is unintentional carrying of 15 clubs in the RoG. Practice strokes - clearly intentional. "Incorrect drops" - much tougher to differentiate by rule.

But from the perspective of use of the English language I cannot imagine how an action that is well covered 'inside the rules of golf' including how you can calculate 'real and official golf scores despite these actions' could be defined as 'not inside the rules of golf'. They need another term (IMHO). And the very idea that "what I just did" is different based on 'what I have not yet done and might or might not do later " is just not golf-like in my mind.

If the USGA wants to implement a handicap rule that says "intentional actions that knowingly create penalty strokes" result in strokes plus par, I would be fine with that. But don't tell me that practice strokes are outside the Rules of Golf.

OTOH, assuming the 'precision' of the Rules of Golf to show up in the USGA Handicap System (given how the USGA has chosen to implement this) ... stuff like this might be inevitable.

dave

[Sawgrass]

Practice strokes are not "outside the Rules of Golf." Taken during a round though, in certain circumstances, they are against the Rules of Golf. Intentionally playing with the goal of ignoring the Rules of Golf is playing outside the Rules of Golf.

Your above quote, [color=#282828] "intentional actions that knowingly create penalty strokes result in strokes plus par" is a fine way of thinking about it, and if you do so I don't think you'll ever run afoul of the USGA's handicap posting rules. I believe you'll feel better about this if you simply redefine your understanding of "outside the Rules."[/color]

[Augster]

What you also run into in your previous examples, is the player taking the extra practice stroke to manipulate his handicap? Taking the 7-2 violation, then heading back to the tee to finish out correctly, or taking the 7-2 penalty, then picking up, sounds like handicap manipulation. If you KNOW you can't do that, those holes become par plus handicap and not "most likely score."

This type of thing will really only come into play when you are playing horridly. i.e. bad holes. In casual rounds, it is usually quicker to not go back to the tee when you find your ball OB, or don't find your ball and it's unexpectedly lost. Most folks won't go back to the tee, but will "drop where it went out" or drop where "it was most likely to be". Illegal drops and outside the ROG. Par plus handicap.

BUT, what about when I do it? When I know the rules and the rules of handicap? I know I'm supposed to go back to the tee. I'm vain, so I don't want to just pick up and write down a double. If I drop a ball illegally and play in the rest of the hole, I am only doing it to manipulate my handicap. I'm trying to change the score for posting purposes from a double to a par (non handicapped hole), but because I know I'm manipulating my handicap, lower, do I just post "most likely score"?

Now I just pick up and walk with the group until the hole has been decided (match play) then practice around the green.

[Cancun]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424447094' post='10991417']
If the USGA wants to implement a handicap rule that says "[b]intentional actions that knowingly create penalty strokes"[/b] result in [b]strokes plus par[/b], I would be fine with that. But don't tell me that practice strokes are outside the Rules of Golf.

dave
[/quote]

Hi Dave: After reading the above, I immediately thought that such “handicap Rule” already exists. I remembered the basic premises of the Handicap System found in Section 1 (actually it’s 1-1) of the handicap system, where it reads:

… Two basic premises underlie the USGA Handicap System[i], [/i]namely that [b]each player will[u] try to make the best score[/u] at every hole in every round,[/b] regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for peer review.

I know that the text I quoted above from you and the Handicap System don't say exaclty the same, but look at it this way:

If you take [b]intentional [/b]actions that will [b]knowingly[/b] create penalty strokes (as you said), then you can’t possibly say that [b]you’re trying[/b] to make the best score at that hole… so the system takes you to par + handicap, instead of the most likely score.

Notice the bolded words: "intentional", “knowingly”, “trying”… it does not refer to what you do, but to what you are trying to do. If you score 8 in a hole and you were trying to score your best, that’s your score, but if you did it because you didn’t really try, or because you intentionally and knowingly broke a Rule to increase your score, it’s a very different situation and it has to be scored as par + strokes (in terms of handicap).

I hope that helps!

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1424458459' post='10992807']
Practice strokes are not "outside the Rules of Golf." Taken during a round though, in certain circumstances, they are against the Rules of Golf. Intentionally playing with the goal of ignoring the Rules of Golf is playing outside the Rules of Golf.

Your above quote, [color=#282828] "intentional actions that knowingly create penalty strokes result in strokes plus par" is a fine way of thinking about it, and if you do so I don't think you'll ever run afoul of the USGA's handicap posting rules. I believe you'll feel better about this if you simply redefine your understanding of "outside the Rules."[/color]
[/quote]

SG, that does make sense (particularly considering Cancun's post #106. And interestingly, this perspective would turn "option #1...

[i][color=#282828]1) 2nd tee shot found OB, for whatever stupid reason you take a practice shot from that area, and you then proceed back to the tee and finish the hole. Here you apply 7-2, add up your strokes, ESC it for posting, accept the ire from your partners, and move on. I assume there is no question about this.[/color][/i]

[color="#282828"]...into strokes plus par. [/color]

[color="#282828"]dave[/color]

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1424521239' post='10997169']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1424458459' post='10992807']
Practice strokes are not "outside the Rules of Golf." Taken during a round though, in certain circumstances, they are against the Rules of Golf. Intentionally playing with the goal of ignoring the Rules of Golf is playing outside the Rules of Golf.

Your above quote, [color=#282828] "intentional actions that knowingly create penalty strokes result in strokes plus par" is a fine way of thinking about it, and if you do so I don't think you'll ever run afoul of the USGA's handicap posting rules. I believe you'll feel better about this if you simply redefine your understanding of "outside the Rules."[/color]
[/quote]

SG, that does make sense (particularly considering Cancun's post #106. And interestingly, this perspective would turn "option #1...

[i][color=#282828]1) 2nd tee shot found OB, for whatever stupid reason you take a practice shot from that area, and you then proceed back to the tee and finish the hole. Here you apply 7-2, add up your strokes, ESC it for posting, accept the ire from your partners, and move on. I assume there is no question about this.[/color][/i]

[color=#282828]...into strokes plus par. [/color]

[color=#282828]dave[/color]
[/quote]

I believe that whether the above description deserves "strokes plus par" or not depends on whether the player deliberately or mindlessly made the practice strokes at the OB ball. If it was simply a dumb mistake and he finished the rest of the hole properly, he should count his strokes and penalty strokes and ESC them. If he said, "I don't care about the Rules for now, I feel like taking a practice stroke" then that's playing outside the Rules earning a par plus strokes.

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1424471951' post='10994383']
What you also run into in your previous examples, is the player taking the extra practice stroke to manipulate his handicap? Taking the 7-2 violation, then heading back to the tee to finish out correctly, or taking the 7-2 penalty, then picking up, sounds like handicap manipulation. If you KNOW you can't do that, those holes become par plus handicap and not "most likely score."

This type of thing will really only come into play when you are playing horridly. i.e. bad holes. In casual rounds, it is usually quicker to not go back to the tee when you find your ball OB, or don't find your ball and it's unexpectedly lost. Most folks won't go back to the tee, but will "drop where it went out" or drop where "it was most likely to be". Illegal drops and outside the ROG. Par plus handicap.

BUT, what about when I do it? When I know the rules and the rules of handicap? I know I'm supposed to go back to the tee. I'm vain, so I don't want to just pick up and write down a double. If I drop a ball illegally and play in the rest of the hole, I am only doing it to manipulate my handicap. I'm trying to change the score for posting purposes from a double to a par (non handicapped hole), but because I know I'm manipulating my handicap, lower, do I just post "most likely score"?

Now I just pick up and walk with the group until the hole has been decided (match play) then practice around the green.
[/quote]

This is my issue with it. I think everything would be much simpler if abandoning the hole included ceasing to play by the rules. So for that instance where you hit a drive and don't find your ball, you can play out the hole from up in the fairway and call it most likely score, which would be par + strokes + 2 (for the stroke and distance). I get to play roughly once a week during the summer. On a busy course, going back to the tee is not just not a viable option, it's liable to get you lynched. Missing out on playing the rest of the hole is a pretty good chunk of my golf these days. I don't want to walk the hole. I want to just drop a ball and play it out. I'm fine with taking par+strokes at that point, but I can't shake the feeling that I'm gaming the system and my handicap winds up lower than perhaps it should be.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1424543911' post='10998659']
[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1424471951' post='10994383']
What you also run into in your previous examples, is the player taking the extra practice stroke to manipulate his handicap? Taking the 7-2 violation, then heading back to the tee to finish out correctly, or taking the 7-2 penalty, then picking up, sounds like handicap manipulation. If you KNOW you can't do that, those holes become par plus handicap and not "most likely score."

This type of thing will really only come into play when you are playing horridly. i.e. bad holes. In casual rounds, it is usually quicker to not go back to the tee when you find your ball OB, or don't find your ball and it's unexpectedly lost. Most folks won't go back to the tee, but will "drop where it went out" or drop where "it was most likely to be". Illegal drops and outside the ROG. Par plus handicap.

BUT, what about when I do it? When I know the rules and the rules of handicap? I know I'm supposed to go back to the tee. I'm vain, so I don't want to just pick up and write down a double. If I drop a ball illegally and play in the rest of the hole, I am only doing it to manipulate my handicap. I'm trying to change the score for posting purposes from a double to a par (non handicapped hole), but because I know I'm manipulating my handicap, lower, do I just post "most likely score"?

Now I just pick up and walk with the group until the hole has been decided (match play) then practice around the green.
[/quote]

This is my issue with it. I think everything would be much simpler if abandoning the hole included ceasing to play by the rules. So for that instance where you hit a drive and don't find your ball, you can play out the hole from up in the fairway and call it most likely score, which would be par + strokes + 2 (for the stroke and distance). I get to play roughly once a week during the summer. On a busy course, going back to the tee is not just not a viable option, it's liable to get you lynched. Missing out on playing the rest of the hole is a pretty good chunk of my golf these days. I don't want to walk the hole. I want to just drop a ball and play it out. I'm fine with taking par+strokes at that point, but I can't shake the feeling that I'm gaming the system and my handicap winds up lower than perhaps it should be.
[/quote]

I embrace your frustration on this point. It would be more fair, in my opinion, if once you're over the ESC limit for your potential on a hole, while playing within the Rules, your postable score never could go below ESC irrespective of whatever else you did.

Nevertheless I also have some respect for the actual Rule which lowers your score if you screw around. The Rules don't like you breaking the Rules! I have given up playing the rest of a hole after losing a tee shot if I can't go back to the tee for this very reason. It has, on occasion, resulted in my finding the ball given the extra time I have (though usually after it's too late to play it).

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1424543911' post='10998659']
[quote name='Augster' timestamp='1424471951' post='10994383']
What you also run into in your previous examples, is the player taking the extra practice stroke to manipulate his handicap? Taking the 7-2 violation, then heading back to the tee to finish out correctly, or taking the 7-2 penalty, then picking up, sounds like handicap manipulation. If you KNOW you can't do that, those holes become par plus handicap and not "most likely score."

This type of thing will really only come into play when you are playing horridly. i.e. bad holes. In casual rounds, it is usually quicker to not go back to the tee when you find your ball OB, or don't find your ball and it's unexpectedly lost. Most folks won't go back to the tee, but will "drop where it went out" or drop where "it was most likely to be". Illegal drops and outside the ROG. Par plus handicap.

BUT, what about when I do it? When I know the rules and the rules of handicap? I know I'm supposed to go back to the tee. I'm vain, so I don't want to just pick up and write down a double. If I drop a ball illegally and play in the rest of the hole, I am only doing it to manipulate my handicap. I'm trying to change the score for posting purposes from a double to a par (non handicapped hole), but because I know I'm manipulating my handicap, lower, do I just post "most likely score"?

Now I just pick up and walk with the group until the hole has been decided (match play) then practice around the green.
[/quote]

This is my issue with it. I think everything would be much simpler if abandoning the hole included ceasing to play by the rules. So for that instance where you hit a drive and don't find your ball, you can play out the hole from up in the fairway and call it most likely score, which would be par + strokes + 2 (for the stroke and distance). I get to play roughly once a week during the summer. On a busy course, going back to the tee is not just not a viable option, it's liable to get you lynched. Missing out on playing the rest of the hole is a pretty good chunk of my golf these days. I don't want to walk the hole. I want to just drop a ball and play it out. I'm fine with taking par+strokes at that point, but I can't shake the feeling that I'm gaming the system and my handicap winds up lower than perhaps it should be.
[/quote]

Keep in mind that this post could reasonably be construed as a post that 'argues with myself (based on previous posts)'

But allowing a person to 'abandon a hole' with no consequences from that point until they tee off on the next hole (I assume), would allow said golfer to hit 47 bags of balls for practice on the fairway before proceeding to the next tee.

OK - extreme, but you get the point. Hence my thought about a better definition of (and the consequences of) abandoning a hole.

This is not simple (IMHO).

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1424536336' post='10998099']
I believe that whether the above description deserves "strokes plus par" or not depends on whether the player deliberately or mindlessly made the practice strokes at the OB ball. If it was simply a dumb mistake and he finished the rest of the hole properly, he should count his strokes and penalty strokes and ESC them. If he said, "I don't care about the Rules for now, I feel like taking a practice stroke" then that's playing outside the Rules earning a par plus strokes.
[/quote]



SG, now that I look more carefully at the question that I asked and answer that I received, 'per the USGA there is no such thing as an intentional practice stroke' and application of Rule 4-1 on the same hole (they were most specific about failure to apply stoke/distance). Most unexpected from my perspective, but ...

... I now see the logic, and so be it. I just would not have described it in the manner that the USGA chooses to describe it. But such is life.

Thanks.

dave

ps. For me personally I will ..

1) Never again hit more shots after I abandon a hole (hardly something I did often, but maybe a couple times per year)

2) I am not going to open this up to our golf club at large. I am still not sure that I really understand all this, and I don't feel that current practices (vs. this 'ruling', whatever it is) have any measurable effect on our club's handicap index accuracy (in aggregate)

[robrey85]

If you're going out there to do what "feels right", then why even keep score? Do you keep a score when you go work on your short game/long game? Depending on what drill you're doing, you might, but most of the time you probably don't.

On a side note, your time line, is SCARY close to what I did. Around 10/4/2014, I shot an 84 with weeks prior to that of being sub-90 and almost shot a sub-80. Since then, it wasn't until this past week that I even broke 90 again and it was one of the biggest grinds I've ever had to break 90. 6 straight Pars to shoot 89. In January I decided to search for a PGA Pro that didn't cost me an arm and a leg and take some lessons and now I find myself being able to do the motions he wants me to do but only with half-3/4 swings. When I get up to full swings, I start to lose control, ESPECIALLY with the driver.

Anyway, just thought it was crazy that someone else on a completely different level was going through the same s*** I've been going through. I feel your pain bud, we'll get through it soon enough!

EDIT: Oh, and on a side note, if I'm playing with buddies I always post scores but if I shank a shot, mentally, it's better for me to hit another ball to prove to myself I can do that shot. If I announce to my bud prior to that practice ball that this ball doesn't mean squat, then it's a practice ball to me and I ignore that shot and post up my score as if that shot never happened. Chances are, if I am shanking the first ball, I won't be getting up and down or anything so in that sense, it doesn't matter to me.

[dpb5031]

This type of thing has come up on here a number of times. In my view, the answer is simple; if you're playing but not applying full effort to shoot your best score and/or trying to beat your opponent(s) on every hole,no matter your form or technique, then you probably shouldn't post.

The point is to avoid artificially inflating your handicap, which would give you an obvious advantage if you teed it up in competition and then put full effort into scoring your best, "form be damned." Handicaps are for competition against other players, simple as that.

[DaveLeeNC]

Regarding the initial post and question that was initially brought up, the weather has been so crappy that the issue never really came up. I've posted exactly one round since Jan. 26 and, right now, have no idea regarding the state of my game. Been a crummy late winter here in NC and my scheduled play days vs. playable weather have just never lined up (I admit to tending to wimp out at around 40 degrees).

dave