UK Classic Club Thread - John Letters, Ben Sayers, Slazenger, Dunlop, George Nicoll, Swilken, Petron

[golfmj228]

His pics are showing up fine for me, I'm on an iPhone 7 if that matters. MJ

[elwhippy]

Ah brings back a lot of memories. I had a set of Ray Floyd blades. Lovely shape but when I got them checked out the lofts and lies were all over the place. Great feel but not quality control in North Berwick.

Sad that all the major UK makers are either gone or been reduced to out of the box tat. John Letters made superb forgings, particularly the short irons. Maxfli and Slazenger blades were used by as many low hcp players as Wilson Staff, Hogan, Spalding and Ram combined. And Slazenger balatas were as good as any Titleist ball. Problem was they were all small companies who couldn't spend much on R&D and even less on advertising and sponsorship. And they all favoured making laminated woods which were wrongly seen as inferior to persimmon. Keep posting more memories please.

[Blade Junkie]

They are great. I am really getting into this. Not sure my wife is keen on me collecting though! Interesting to note most irons in this thread are John Letter but I was always a Ben Sayers man (Crown's and Mentors - I would love a set of these). The history of Slazenger/Dunlop/Maxfli always amazes and confuses me in-particular. The quality of so many of these clubs was/is amazing. What I have seen in this thread which seems rare to me are post 1950's UK Persimmons - most Sayers and Letters I remember from 70's onwards were laminates.

 

Just found this Mentor advert in an old golf magazine, laminates to the fore !

 

I have a set of these irons in 1,3-SW and they are really good forged sticks, and it is quite amazing to me that they could be had brand new back in the day for half the cost of the Hogans, Ram and MacGregor blade offerings.

 

 

 

[Chip Out Sideways]

Those are the irons I really want! They were the third set I owned: 1st set Ben Sayers Crown: 2nd set Wilson Staff FG17; 3rd set Ben Sayers Mentor (those in the advert). I got to my lowest handicap with these (with Mizuno Pro Original Persimmon woods and Wilson Staff 8813 putter). If I remember correctly these were replaced with Titleist 981 irons - probably played better with these but the Mentors are what I now hanker after.

[pallap]

Here is a Henry Cotton model putter I recently found in one of my local Op Shops.

 

Russad - if you ever want to part with that one, I would be very interested. I have a set of Nicoll Cotton irons that have the same ferrule, so the putter would be a perfect match !

 

this set turned up in the german small ads (a rare thing indeed and I couldn't resist)

2 - 9 iron, wedge and putter, 2 - 3 - 4 - 6 woods

 

wouldn't it be a shame to seperate the putter from his family, BJ?

 

any ideas on the year and what flex does A represent?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

kind rgds

Andreas

[stixman]

http://www.ebay.co.u...goAAOSwNnRYf7lw

 

Not quite the same model, but is this of interest?

 

Edit,

Not mine and no connection to the seller!

[TimV]

Dunlop GT. Britain (Circle D) Stainless - Peter Thomson signature

I have the 3, 4, 6, 7, and 8 irons. Decent looking blades. True Temper Pro Fit R flex shafts

Any information on these? Store model since they're stainless steel?

[pallap]

not exactly the right colours of the ferrule, I fear, stixman

but I found some suitable balls for the Nicolls

 

the Slazenger +1 in the right upper corner is real egg

 

 

[Jiggered]

this set turned up in the german small ads (a rare thing indeed and I couldn't resist)

2 - 9 iron, wedge and putter, 2 - 3 - 4 - 6 woods

 

wouldn't it be a shame to seperate the putter from his family, BJ?

 

any ideas on the year and what flex does A represent?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

kind rgds

Andreas

 

I really like those, unusual set of woods as well, 2. 3, 4 & 6.

 

Good find!

[pallap]

any ideas on the year and what flex does A represent?

 

these clubs arrived and are really great -

I like especially the clear lines and unobstrusive markings

not even the manufacturer's name mentioned on the clubs

just on the beautiful leather grips in perfect condition

 

 

 

and I like the wordplay PinNicoll

 

THE HELPING HAND OF GOLF - FOR OVER HALF A CENTURY

 

no ideas out there for year and shaft flex???

 

kind regards

Andreas

[Davewn]

any ideas on the year and what flex does A represent?

 

these clubs arrived and are really great -

I like especially the clear lines and unobstrusive markings

not even the manufacturer's name mentioned on the clubs

just on the beautiful leather grips in perfect condition

 

 

 

and I like the wordplay PinNicoll

 

THE HELPING HAND OF GOLF - FOR OVER HALF A CENTURY

 

no ideas out there for year and shaft flex???

 

kind regards

Andreas

 

I have no idea on the year, but A flex is typically "senior" flex, between ladies and regular. I always inferred the "A" stood for "aged." From most flexible to stiffest- L-A-R-S-X

[pallap]

any ideas on the year and what flex does A represent?

 

these clubs arrived and are really great -

I like especially the clear lines and unobstrusive markings

not even the manufacturer's name mentioned on the clubs

just on the beautiful leather grips in perfect condition

 

and I like the wordplay PinNicoll

 

THE HELPING HAND OF GOLF - FOR OVER HALF A CENTURY

 

no ideas out there for year and shaft flex???

 

kind regards

Andreas

 

I have no idea on the year, but A flex is typically "senior" flex, between ladies and regular. I always inferred the "A" stood for "aged." From most flexible to stiffest- L-A-R-S-X

 

thanks, davewn,

just received Henry Cottons book "This game of Golf" with really fantastic pictures from 1920 till 1948 (when the 1st edition came out)

and here is what Sir Henry has to say about his grips

 

...but, to me, treated leather, stamped, punched or slotted, provides the best grip - "King of them all".

It will only be squeezed out of premier place through scarcity.

[stixman]

The clubs were made in 1958/9. I had two sets including the woods. I also had the matching Howitzer sand wedge and rare Pitching wedge.

If you have a copy of Henry's 'My Golfing Album' with a dust jacket along with a smiling Henry resplendant in his Pringle primrose yellow cashmere you will see him modelling a set of these clubs.

To the best of my knowledge this is the only time he made any public acknowledgement of Nicoll's clubs.

 

The heads were among the first made at the Alston works in Cumbria, England, using the Shaw ceramic process. The quality is unsurpassed, the metallurgy superb. However the assembly work at the Nicoll factory was slipshod, with swing weights all over the place and grip cap assemblies working loose and causing rattles. The woods were even worse with paint job that was supposed to mimic Macgregor's aubergine, didn't and disintegrated after a couple of seasons in UK weather.

If you were lucky and got them custom assembled they were as good as anything. The components, shaft, grip, ferrules, raw heads were excellent. Shame about the workforce.

They were lucky to keep going into the 1980, kept afloat by dewey eyed sentimentalism from the overseas market.

[pallap]

The clubs were made in 1958/9. I had two sets including the woods. I also had the matching Howitzer sand wedge and rare Pitching wedge.

If you have a copy of Henry's 'My Golfing Album' with a dust jacket along with a smiling Henry resplendant in his Pringle primrose yellow cashmere you will see him modelling a set of these clubs.

To the best of my knowledge this is the only time he made any public acknowledgement of Nicoll's clubs.

 

The heads were among the first made at the Alston works in Cumbria, England, using the Shaw ceramic process. The quality is unsurpassed, the metallurgy superb. However the assembly work at the Nicoll factory was slipshod, with swing weights all over the place and grip cap assemblies working loose and causing rattles. The woods were even worse with paint job that was supposed to mimic Macgregor's aubergine, didn't and disintegrated after a couple of seasons in UK weather.

If you were lucky and got them custom assembled they were as good as anything. The components, shaft, grip, ferrules, raw heads were excellent. Shame about the workforce.

They were lucky to keep going into the 1980, kept afloat by dewey eyed sentimentalism from the overseas market.

 

thank you, stixman,

unfortunately I don't have his Golfing Album

my grip caps are all tight and the workmanship on my clubs seem excellent, I have no idea about the swingweights however -

you mention the rare Pitching wedge, my set has one just marked "Wedge", were there many different or which one is my "Wedge"?

[Muirfield Willie]

I guess this would be the perfect thread to ask this question rather than starting a whole topic since it seems those in the know would be in here. I found a George Nicoll Centennial blade putter recently and wondered how old it is. Its the "Calamity Jane" style with a Lamkin leather grip. Ive found similar putters on ebay but none seems to tell the age in the description and ive found zero info on google other than my best guess would be 1981

[stixman]

Well, Nicoll started forging clubs in 1881 and they were out of business in 1982 so I'm inclined to think your best guess of 1981 is right on the money. Nice!

[Muirfield Willie]

Cool. Its just in better shape than i figured a 35 year old club would be. The grip was a little crooked so rather than try and take it off and take a better than good chance of ruining it i removed the head and re epoxied getting it square that way. Really good feeling putter that will be played.

[Jiggered]

Just collected a set of clubs after winning them on ebay, I admit right now that I had a nagging doubt about the description and should have asked a question.

 

They may not be a classic name but they are undoubtedly the most beautiful looking irons I've ever seen, only trouble is, when I picked one up it was obviously a lot shorter than I play! The seller, who knew little or nothing about golf then said that they'd belonged to his mother!

 

Anyway, they're still a work of art and are in excellent condition. Made by Sid Warren Green, "PEAKHI", irons are 2 to 10, putter, and 1, 2 and 3 woods.

I'd like to give them a hit but I fear that they're just too short, maybe 1 to 1.5 inches less than my current irons..

The shafts are original black finish True Temper Dynamic L so I don't want to reshaft as it would ruin the look and in any case the heads look like they might be pretty tricky to hit.

 

Maybe I'll just find a way to display them, both as a thing of beauty and as a reminder to ask a question if in doubt when bidding on ebay....

 

On the plus side there were a couple of Gradidge Bobby Lock woods, 1 1/2 and 3 1/2, oil tempered persimmon included in the lot that had belonged to the guy's father, these will be getting an outing.

 

Pictures below.

[stixman]

Pro at High Peak, Buxton. I've seen/owned/sold similar patterned hickories. Contact Richard Atherton (BGCS) he may have more info.

[Jiggered]

Pro at High Peak, Buxton. I've seen/owned/sold similar patterned hickories. Contact Richard Atherton (BGCS) he may have more info.

 

Thanks Chris, I'll give him a try.

[stixman]

Anyone come across Swilken Perfection irons? Any info?

[Chris122]

Couple of recent buys pertinent to this thread.

[stixman]

Anyone come across Swilken Perfection irons? Any info?

Follow up: we haven't seen anything on Swilken so far on this thread. I understand that Swilken came about from the collapse of Spalding in Scotland. Could it be that some of Swilkens offerings were based on Spalding blanks?

Still looking for anything on the 'Perfection' model, particularly playing experiences.

 

Here are some on Ebay.co.uk. I think they look pretty good.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Swilken-Perfection-St-Andrews-RH-Golf-Set-/282420705353?hash=item41c195f849:g:X2cAAOSwax5Y2TEY

[baloo]

I have a set of power thrust heads by Slazenger for sale in the bst.

 

They're really pretty neat, but I've never paired them with a good shaft so they don't see any playing time from me.

[elwhippy]

The Swilken Alta line of woods and irons were very good and very popular. Quality irons at low prices.

[Chris122]

Sir Henry did appear with a red,white and blue Nicoll bag at the '77 Turnberry Open.

My first irons were Swilken Tournament Star,blades which were available on an 'open stock' basis from sports shops so that clubs could be bought individually to make up a set as required or when affordable.

I started with a 5-iron,they had the Stewart pipe cleek mark stamped on the head and I believe were cast not forged,I added a 9 and 7-iron along with a Dunlop Bob Charles 3-wood,putter was an aluminium municipal putting green model with bendy shaft and grip made from green garden hosepipe.

Swilken made plenty of inexpensive stuff notable mainly for its mediocrity,most memorable were the 'QE2' irons made from the bronze propellers of the transatlantic liner 'Queen Elizabeth II' when it was decommissioned,plenty still for sale on the internet.

Forgive me for saying so but Swilken and 'Perfection' somehow don't fit together!

[stixman]

Forgive me for saying so but Swilken and 'Perfection' somehow don't fit together!

 

I can see where you are coming from.

It's this highly speculative 'if', if as part of the deal in taking on the Spalding connection they got hold of Spalding blanks and rebranded them, fitted them with AP shafts, then you've got the basis of a pretty good club.

 

I saw the Perfections and wondered if our friends in the USA could see a connection between them and Spaldings they have known, late '60s / early '70s Elite for example.

There is something of the topline which looks familiar and the 'one size' head, Spalding buffs will know.

 

Ironfinder examples look pretty close to my eye.

[Chris122]

Chris,has 'Perfection' been achieved?

I was interested in your comments about the quality of Nicoll completed products,do you think that was general across the entire British golf industry or are there any standouts as far as quality is concerned.I have a set of Slazenger Plus Jack Nicklaus woods and irons,the irons are good looking clubs and play well,preferable to the Dunlop Bob Charles sets that I have even though they are likely to have come out of the same place.

More or less on the same thread I'm also interested in what clubs British golfers played in major championships,something that was generated by watching Tommy Horton in the '77 Turnberry Open and wondering if he had Dunlop clubs in his Dunlop bag.

There are a number of overseas players also with Dunlop bags on view but reckon that it would have been an advertising deal for their temporary UK residency and that the hardware inside would be their regular non-Dunlop sticks.

Any thoughts?

[stixman]

We had a guy at Grange over Sands called Alan Meadowcroft, an England and Lancashire amateur who was a rep in the industry. he used to visit Nicolls 'factory' which he described as being a few nissan huts. He had his clubs made for him and was therefore quite priviliged. He spotted some persimmon blanks under a bench which looked quite tasty, only to be told 'they're not for the likes of you'.

I hold to my line that Nicoll,Gibson and Sayers in the immediate post war era were producing sub-standard quality as finished goods out of the factory. If they shipped heads and shafts out to Pros to finish, you were going to get a much better finished product. The components were excellent. There was also a fair bit of pilfering, Sayers in particular in North Berwick lost a sizable shrinkage due to this factor. I spoke to two or three people who were engaged at the factory , claiming to be 'clubmakers' and were nothing of the kind, who said quantities of goods were unaccounted for. My understanding is that Trevino's Greentree operation failed because of this.

The collapse of the golf industry in Scotland was self inflicted by weak and incompetent management and a corrupt workforce

.

I do not include the John Letters business in this condemnation, they supplied an excellent product and competed on equal terms with anything made in the USA. Volume and market penetration was their problem, a factor of their size. Donaldsons of Glasgow came under the same assessment.

[Chris122]

That's a great insight Chris but only typical of what became symptomatic of British industry post-war which lead ultimately to the demise of all our world famous manufacturing businesses,I've often wondered if the war was in fact responsible for this with all the go-getters and worthy types being sent off to serve while the lacklustre johnnies stayed at home and got their feet well under the table in anticipation of better things to come.

It's very interesting to compare peoples' perceptions of quality and what is desirable,when Laddie Lucas was in the US to play in the Walker Cup there were those who were desperate to buy his Scottish 'bench forged' irons which Lucas happily sold in order to buy Macgregor Tommy Armour irons and Toney Penna woods!

When American equipment became more easily available it soon became obvious how much better it was than our own stuff,one of my pals had Hogan Apex irons which I thought were the greatest clubs I had ever seen and can vividly remember the 'knockers' who said 'Can't be much good if you have to have a pin to hold the head on' and 'They rust too easily with that chrome finish'!

I have a set of Letters Master Model but stupidly sold an early set of Dai Rees Master Model LEFT HANDED irons to a Dutchman who I've tried to contact several times to see if I can buy them back without success.

Tom Morris 'Summit' irons and Tom Auchterlonie 'Professional Model' are in residence but not used.