Golf isn't fair

[Frostfield]

I can prove its an unfair green....
In your mind, imagine where JB's approach landed and draw a straight line to the hole. With the slope and speed of the greens, that line is effectively the hazard line. Now just erase that portion of the land and replace it with water. How silly would it look then??? No one would accept it as legitimate. NO ONE! But since it effectively plays that silly, what's the difference? I dunno? The second half of the green is too penal.

[Vindog]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425829792' post='11101869']
If Holmes could draw the ball it would have stayed on the green. It rolled off because his shot wasn't the correct shot. The hole is fine the way it is.
[/quote]
I remain skeptical that a draw would have helped. I don't see how anyone can say that it would have definitively

[jons1]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425829792' post='11101869']
If Holmes could draw the ball it would have stayed on the green. It rolled off because his shot wasn't the correct shot. The hole is fine the way it is.
[/quote]

A cut should be higher and with more spin. I don't see the logic here. And yes, he can hit a draw.

[teejaywhy]

Some things I'm not understanding:

- Did everyone's ball roll off into the water?
- Did Homes skip playing this hole in his practice rounds, had he never seen the green and surrounds?

[Pepperturbo]

Holmes hits a cut shot.... cut shots have side spin. How is it some of you can't see how left to right side spin affected his ball on the green. Note the Par 3 over water... yesterday, only a few players that could draw the ball into the middle, could take advantage of the ball hitting with right to left side spin so the ball works its way towards the pin on the left... exactly the opposed of Holmes shot.

What isn't fair is the '6' I took yesterday. My approach shot landed in a deep green side bunker, only to land in some UN-raked lazy azzz foot print, with a mound of deep sand directly behind the ball. Something NO tour player ever faces... uneven depths of sand and un-raked bunkers; and I like bunkers.

[bladehunter]

its a silly green period.... from where his shot landed you could potentially loose a putt into the water if you hit right of the hole...that's too severe...I don't care what anyone says... If this shot was with a 3 wood I would tend to agree risk /reward...but it was a 6 iron... not even a long iron... your gonna tell me a guy standing looking at a huge green a 6 iron away has to layup to a sw????? so what he hits sw sw into the green... that's the dumbest thing I ever heard

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1425919473' post='11108505']
its a silly green period.... from where his shot landed you could potentially loose a putt into the water if you hit right of the hole...that's too severe...I don't care what anyone says... If this shot was with a 3 wood I would tend to agree risk /reward...but it was a 6 iron... not even a long iron... your gonna tell me a guy standing looking at a huge green a 6 iron away has to layup to a sw????? so what he hits sw sw into the green... that's the dumbest thing I ever heard
[/quote]

NO, nobody is saying that. He put his ball in the wrong quadrant.. should have been left of the pin. This weekend I faced an uphill, into the wind 178yd par 3, with water fronting and to the right, similar. I bailed left side, and putted across the green for par.

[PGArox]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1425919473' post='11108505']
It's a silly green period.... from where his shot landed you could potentially loose a putt into the water if you hit right of the hole...that's too severe...I don't care what anyone says.
[/quote]

Exactly. No one who understands golf course architecture can justify that green complex. For all you folks claiming that hole should be played as a three-shotter, OK let's assume a player misses his third shot left and is faced with a pitch to that section of the green. We'd see guys chipping into the water.

And what kind of green is it anyway, if you can not use the front half of it? It's bad architecture. I don't neccessarily mind a green which is severe enough to repel a misplayed shot onto the fringe, or into a chipping area which gives a player the chance to actually [i]play golf[/i], but terminal trouble should be reserved for poorly struck shots.

The essence of great golf course architecture is to allow golfers to have fun, and demonstrate creativity. Architecture which is too penal is not only unenjoyable to play, but it also discourages creativity. The greens complexes at the Blue Monster need urgent attention. The banks which slope down to the water need to be softened or muted. Hopefully they already have plans to do this.

[Pepperturbo]

Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.

[hogans71]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.

[Smith65]

The way you guys are talking about this hole I expected the stats for the hole to show it played way over par, except it didn't. It was actually the 4th easiest hole on the course. Plus, balls will hold on the green if you play the hole correctly.

http://www.worldgolfchampionships.com/content/worldgolfchampionships/cadillac-championship/leaderboard/player.27141.html

http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole


Play the hole correctly and your ball will not be in the water. Play crazy shots like the 250 yard cut shot with a 3 wood and you get the wrong end of the rinse cycle.

[bladehunter]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425923934' post='11109009']The way you guys are talking about this hole I expected the stats for the hole to show it played way over par, except it didn't. It was actually the 4th easiest hole on the course. Plus, balls will hold on the green if you play the hole correctly.

http://www.worldgolfchampionships.com/content/worldgolfchampionships/cadillac-championship/leaderboard/player.27141.html

http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole


Play the hole correctly and your ball will not be in the water. Play crazy shots like the 250 yard cut shot with a 3 wood and you get the wrong end of the rinse cycle.[/quote]


Was an iron. But that's beside the point. Example. is let's say its a green with a false front. We don't place the pin on or even near the false front. As in it has to be on enough that a ball hit to the pin will stay on. Yes? So your telling me a iron shot hit to the center green pin placement should be expected to roll to the water? What's the difference? This argument would have zero legs if this were a par 4 green.

[bunter101]

I didn't see the early coverage but what i did see was it blowing a hoolie.

So this six iron cut shot, was it down wind from the left?

would a baby draw 7 been the better shot

[bladehunter]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.[/quote]


Pepper I am in agreement with you most days. So don't take this as trolling as it's not. But that shot was hit as well as could be hit into that green and it repelled it like scotch guard attacking dog pee on the rug. That's not risk/ reward. It's just punish punish punish anyone long enough to dare conquer one of Donald's masterful holes.

[bunter101]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1425924833' post='11109109']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425923934' post='11109009']The way you guys are talking about this hole I expected the stats for the hole to show it played way over par, except it didn't. It was actually the 4th easiest hole on the course. Plus, balls will hold on the green if you play the hole correctly.

[url="http://www.worldgolfchampionships.com/content/worldgolfchampionships/cadillac-championship/leaderboard/player.27141.html"]http://www.worldgolf...ayer.27141.html[/url]

[url="http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole"]http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole[/url]


Play the hole correctly and your ball will not be in the water. Play crazy shots like the 250 yard cut shot with a 3 wood and you get the wrong end of the rinse cycle.[/quote]


Was an iron. But that's beside the point. Example. is let's say its a green with a false front. We don't place the pin on or even near the false front. As in it has to be on enough that a ball hit to the pin will stay on. Yes? So your telling me a iron shot hit to the center green pin placement should be expected to roll to the water? What's the difference? This argument would have zero legs if this were a par 4 green.
[/quote]

So if a ball hits the centre of the green it should stay on the green no matter what?

[Smith65]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1425924833' post='11109109']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425923934' post='11109009']The way you guys are talking about this hole I expected the stats for the hole to show it played way over par, except it didn't. It was actually the 4th easiest hole on the course. Plus, balls will hold on the green if you play the hole correctly.

[url="http://www.worldgolfchampionships.com/content/worldgolfchampionships/cadillac-championship/leaderboard/player.27141.html"]http://www.worldgolf...ayer.27141.html[/url]

[url="http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole"]http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole[/url]


Play the hole correctly and your ball will not be in the water. Play crazy shots like the 250 yard cut shot with a 3 wood and you get the wrong end of the rinse cycle.[/quote]


Was an iron. But that's beside the point. Example. is let's say its a green with a false front. We don't place the pin on or even near the false front. As in it has to be on enough that a ball hit to the pin will stay on. Yes? So your telling me a iron shot hit to the center green pin placement should be expected to roll to the water? What's the difference? This argument would have zero legs if this were a par 4 green.
[/quote]


If the pin placement was as bad as you guys are claiming, then the hole would have played over par. It didn't play over par for the week, nor did it play over par for the day and pin placement in question. My link above is for the week, but the link I am providing here in this post is for the day and pin placement involved in the J.B. Holmes shot in question. The hole still played under par with that specific pin placement, so how hard and unfair was it again?

[url="http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole/_/round/2"]http://espn.go.com/g.../hole/_/round/2[/url]

Holmes played a shot that does not work on this hole, but quite obviously others played the hole differently and under par as a group. Maybe Holmes should have done what the other players did, because maybe he'd have not bogeyed the hole had he done so.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425923613' post='11108973']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.
[/quote]

Actually it was to the right of the pin. and the number at the bottom of the club doesn't matter. How many times do I have to say he hits a cut... that means with all his clubs/irons his ball has left to right side spin... Again, he hits a cut. I, however, hit a straight ball, or as straight as humanly possible. So, applying that condition to me makes no practical sense; six iron or...

[Smith65]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425925301' post='11109179']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425923613' post='11108973']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.
[/quote]

Actually it was to the right of the pin. and the number at the bottom of the club doesn't matter. How many times do I have to say he hits a cut... that means with all his irons his ball has left to right side spin... Again, he hits a cut. I, however, hit a straight ball, or as straight as humanly possible. So, applying that condition to me makes no practical sense; six iron or...
[/quote]

You have it figured out correctly, Pepperturbo. A left to right shot from 246 on that hole is the wrong shot. Holmes learned the hard way. I hit a straight ball like you do, or a slight draw. We have a hole at my club that when the pin is in the center or left side of the green I do not go for it in two because when I do I stand a great chance of rinsing my ball. So I lay up, which is the correct play for my game on that specific hole when the pin is in those spots. Nothing wrong with the hole or pin placements at all, it just doesn't allow my shot shape to play the hole in 2 and also play it well.

[Smith65]

[quote name='bunter101' timestamp='1425925093' post='11109155']
[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1425924833' post='11109109']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425923934' post='11109009']The way you guys are talking about this hole I expected the stats for the hole to show it played way over par, except it didn't. It was actually the 4th easiest hole on the course. Plus, balls will hold on the green if you play the hole correctly.

[url="http://www.worldgolfchampionships.com/content/worldgolfchampionships/cadillac-championship/leaderboard/player.27141.html"]http://www.worldgolf...ayer.27141.html[/url]

[url="http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole"]http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole[/url]


Play the hole correctly and your ball will not be in the water. Play crazy shots like the 250 yard cut shot with a 3 wood and you get the wrong end of the rinse cycle.[/quote]


Was an iron. But that's beside the point. Example. is let's say its a green with a false front. We don't place the pin on or even near the false front. As in it has to be on enough that a ball hit to the pin will stay on. Yes? So your telling me a iron shot hit to the center green pin placement should be expected to roll to the water? What's the difference? This argument would have zero legs if this were a par 4 green.
[/quote]

So if a ball hits the centre of the green it should stay on the green no matter what?
[/quote]


The 72nd at Turnberry when Tom Watson was trying to win the Open a few years ago is a great example of this. The guy hit the one spot on the green that propels the ball forward, then couldn't get up and down. That is golf.

[Playaway]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425925301' post='11109179']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425923613' post='11108973']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.
[/quote]

Actually it was to the right of the pin. and the number at the bottom of the club doesn't matter. How many times do I have to say he hits a cut... that means with all his irons his ball has left to right side spin... Again, he hits a cut. I, however, hit a straight ball, or[color=#ff0000] as straight as humanly possible[/color]. So, applying that condition to me makes no practical sense; six iron or...
[/quote]

Really . . . . . . . . . . . . Really? LOL

[bladehunter]

[quote name='bunter101' timestamp='1425925093' post='11109155'][quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1425924833' post='11109109']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425923934' post='11109009']The way you guys are talking about this hole I expected the stats for the hole to show it played way over par, except it didn't. It was actually the 4th easiest hole on the course. Plus, balls will hold on the green if you play the hole correctly.

[url="http://www.worldgolfchampionships.com/content/worldgolfchampionships/cadillac-championship/leaderboard/player.27141.html"]http://www.worldgolf...ayer.27141.html[/url]

[url="http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole"]http://espn.go.com/golf/stats/hole[/url]


Play the hole correctly and your ball will not be in the water. Play crazy shots like the 250 yard cut shot with a 3 wood and you get the wrong end of the rinse cycle.[/quote]


Was an iron. But that's beside the point. Example. is let's say its a green with a false front. We don't place the pin on or even near the false front. As in it has to be on enough that a ball hit to the pin will stay on. Yes? So your telling me a iron shot hit to the center green pin placement should be expected to roll to the water? What's the difference? This argument would have zero legs if this were a par 4 green.
[/quote]

So if a ball hits the centre of the green it should stay on the green no matter what?[/quote]


Not on every green. Links courses being the exception mostly. But in this huge green with an iron yes. And the reason it played "easy" is no one else could reach it consistently. Everyone else hit it in 3. I seem to remember talk of halting a U.S. Open once for the same reason. Memory fails me as to when and where but I know I didn't make it up. Anyway it is what it is. And my mind can't be changed. Can't get over the image of that guy with the squirrel on his head laughing to his cronies at how his monster stole the win away. Any other course would at least grow that rough to keep balls from automatically hitting the water.

[bladehunter]

I mean what does the membership play this hole at. Par 7? I really think some just enjoy seeing a longer hitter " put in his place" and side with that for personal reasons.

[hogans71]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425925301' post='11109179']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425923613' post='11108973']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.
[/quote]

Actually it was to the right of the pin. and the number at the bottom of the club doesn't matter. How many times do I have to say he hits a cut... that means with all his irons his ball has left to right side spin... Again, he hits a cut. I, however, hit a straight ball, or as straight as humanly possible. So, applying that condition to me makes no practical sense; six iron or...
[/quote]

I should have known that Peppers ball flight would be "as straight as humanly possible"...

What's disturbing is that you honestly believe that the number on the bottom of the club makes no difference. We're not talking three wood vs. three iron here. It was a towering six iron that while indeed played as a fade, come down like one of your straight as an arrow gap wedges. You make it seem like his "cut" was twenty yards worth of movement, when odds are it was probably about two and a half. Not that you have to worry about such massive side spin yourself...

What was that old saying by Lee Trevino regarding talking to fades?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1425926100' post='11109255']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425925301' post='11109179']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425923613' post='11108973']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.
[/quote]

Actually it was to the right of the pin. and the number at the bottom of the club doesn't matter. How many times do I have to say he hits a cut... that means with all his irons his ball has left to right side spin... Again, he hits a cut. I, however, hit a straight ball, or[color=#ff0000] as straight as humanly possible[/color]. So, applying that condition to me makes no practical sense; six iron or...
[/quote]

Really . . . . . . . . . . . . Really? LOL
[/quote]

Yep, really. Hookers and slicers love it. My ball doesn't move hard right or left at impact.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425928212' post='11109497']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425925301' post='11109179']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425923613' post='11108973']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.
[/quote]

Actually it was to the right of the pin. and the number at the bottom of the club doesn't matter. How many times do I have to say he hits a cut... that means with all his irons his ball has left to right side spin... Again, he hits a cut. I, however, hit a straight ball, or as straight as humanly possible. So, applying that condition to me makes no practical sense; six iron or...
[/quote]

I should have known that Peppers ball flight would be "as straight as humanly possible"...

What's disturbing is that you honestly believe that the number on the bottom of the club makes no difference. We're not talking three wood vs. three iron here. It was a towering six iron that while indeed played as a fade, come down like one of your straight as an arrow gap wedges. You make it seem like his "cut" was twenty yards worth of movement, when odds are it was probably about two and a half. Not that you have to worry about such massive side spin yourself...

What was that old saying by Lee Trevino regarding talking to fades?
[/quote]

I suggest you pay closer attention to his trajectory and ball behavior. Did you notice his 3wd on the drivable Par 4? It hit in the front section and ran to the far back... An angled shot. Announcers talked about his cut.

Yep, trevino was right... far less run out problems in the fairway as opposed to a hook. He never applied that to fast undulated greens though; since during his day he never faced comparable green speeds or undulations, that tour guys face today... thats my opinion. Yours may very.

[playa]

I bet tiger could have made that shot.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425930328' post='11109775']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425928212' post='11109497']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425925301' post='11109179']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425923613' post='11108973']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.
[/quote]

Actually it was to the right of the pin. and the number at the bottom of the club doesn't matter. How many times do I have to say he hits a cut... that means with all his irons his ball has left to right side spin... Again, he hits a cut. I, however, hit a straight ball, or as straight as humanly possible. So, applying that condition to me makes no practical sense; six iron or...
[/quote]

I should have known that Peppers ball flight would be "as straight as humanly possible"...

What's disturbing is that you honestly believe that the number on the bottom of the club makes no difference. We're not talking three wood vs. three iron here. It was a towering six iron that while indeed played as a fade, come down like one of your straight as an arrow gap wedges. You make it seem like his "cut" was twenty yards worth of movement, when odds are it was probably about two and a half. Not that you have to worry about such massive side spin yourself...

What was that old saying by Lee Trevino regarding talking to fades?
[/quote]

I suggest you pay closer attention to his trajectory and ball behavior. Did you notice his 3wd on the driveable Par 3? It hit in the front section and ran to the far back... An angled shot. Announcers talked about his cut.

Yep, trevino was right... far less run out problems in the fairway as opposed to a hook. He never applied that to fast undulated greens though; since during his day he never faced comparable green speeds or undulations, that tour guys face today... thats my opinion. Yours may very.
[/quote]
Drivable par 3?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1425931164' post='11109887']

Drivable par 3?
[/quote]
I meant Par 4... sorry

[Jamboy72]

This joke, that is the 1st green, is one of the reasons players were universally grumbling about the actual course - If it weren't a WGC event, you could say bye-bye to quite a few players - One or two players complain - you can chalk it up to typical responses - But when you get these over-penal results, you get the "unfair" comment quite a bit and it's hard to disagree

[hogans71]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425930328' post='11109775']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425928212' post='11109497']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425925301' post='11109179']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425923613' post='11108973']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425921088' post='11108697']
Like golfers, NOT all courses are created equal or great. Expecting such is ludicrous.
[/quote]


Equal or great? How about fair...

He hit a freaking six iron for God's sake to essentially the front MIDDLE of the green. And you're talking about quadrants?

I'd love to see your reaction if your approaches with six irons were repelled in such a fashion. Keeping in mind that you can't hit it nearly as flush, nor as high, nor as precise as JB demonstrated...

Again, it was a SIX IRON.
[/quote]

Actually it was to the right of the pin. and the number at the bottom of the club doesn't matter. How many times do I have to say he hits a cut... that means with all his irons his ball has left to right side spin... Again, he hits a cut. I, however, hit a straight ball, or as straight as humanly possible. So, applying that condition to me makes no practical sense; six iron or...
[/quote]

I should have known that Peppers ball flight would be "as straight as humanly possible"...

What's disturbing is that you honestly believe that the number on the bottom of the club makes no difference. We're not talking three wood vs. three iron here. It was a towering six iron that while indeed played as a fade, come down like one of your straight as an arrow gap wedges. You make it seem like his "cut" was twenty yards worth of movement, when odds are it was probably about two and a half. Not that you have to worry about such massive side spin yourself...

What was that old saying by Lee Trevino regarding talking to fades?
[/quote]

I suggest you pay closer attention to his trajectory and ball behavior. Did you notice his 3wd on the drivable Par 4? It hit in the front section and ran to the far back... An angled shot. Announcers talked about his cut.

Yep, trevino was right... far less run out problems in the fairway as opposed to a hook. He never applied that to fast undulated greens though; since during his day he never faced comparable green speeds or undulations, that tour guys face today... thats my opinion. Yours may very.
[/quote]

I'm quite certain you know the massive difference in spin rate when comparing three wood approaches and six iron approaches.

At least I hope you do...