Golf isn't fair

[rafal]

Holmes is such a one-dimensional player I just can't worry too much about his tribulations. And his course management is legendary, Jason Day is a fan.

[Smith65]

[quote name='Jamboy72' timestamp='1425949293' post='11111667']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425948369' post='11111549']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

patrick, if you are a 1 index then you should know that not every shot is worth taking. Some holes are designed to see if the player can make birdie, while others are designed to see if the player is too greedy to lay up. This is one of those holes.

The hole played under par that day, so it obviously was designed so that it was possible top be birdied if played a certain way. It just wasn't designed to receive a 246 yard cut shot, regardless of what club was used to hit that shot. I'm certain that his 246 yard shot didn't have a high traj (to use Tiger's word) even if he did hit a 6 iron. It likely was a lower traj shot, and since it was moving left to right it continued to move left to right once it hit the green. Unlike everyone else who laid up as a group, he made a big number.

The mere fact that hole played in under par that day is the proof the hole was OK. He simply played a poor choice of shots.

BTW, wouldn't you want to play against someone who will guarantee you they will go for everything? So long as they try to shoot at every pin and never once lay up, wouldn't you want to play agisnt such a player? Don't you believe you would beat that person? I would. I'd love to play against someone willing to try to pull off 246 cut shots into greens protected by water on the right.
[/quote]

[b]Just b/c it played under par that day, doesn't mean it's a good hole. By that same logic, a hole that plays over par, is a bad hole.[/b] [b] I don't understand how anyone can say going for a par 5 in two, 6 iron in hand....is a bad play - and this is compounded by the fact he hit the shot he was trying to hit...never in a million years did he think he'd pull the shot off and get the result he did -[/b]
[/quote]

One, I never said that a hole that plays over par is a bad hole. Those are your words, not mine. I don't even believe I endorsed #1 as being "good", as opposed to "fair", which even if I failed to use that word I guess I should note that was my point. The discussion was that the hole set up wasn't really fair, and I disagree with that idea.

As to your second point, going for a par 5 in two with a 6 iron isn't a bad play in and of itself, but going for THIS par 5 from 246 yards (regardless of choice of club) with a CUT SHOT with the water on the right is a bad play. If you disagree that this kind of shot was a wrong choice, then please identify the player that hit a similar shot and had it work out well for him.

[Smith65]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1425949928' post='11111745']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425947219' post='11111439']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

I hear your argument, yet, in general, the field didn't have the same problem with that hole. As far as I am concerned, that makes my argument. If, on the other hand most of the field dumped it in the water, then my view might be different.

That said, no one can win the argument. No one posting knows what Holmes was really thinking and what others thought after hitting their clubs into that green, and didn't go in the water. I appreciate your 1 as I am close. Opinions vary.
[/quote]

[b]but dont you see that the reason no one else went at it was that nobody else was looking at 6 iron into it...plenty of other guys would have hit into it if they had a 6 iron in hand. Then what ? would they all be wrong?[/b]
[/quote]


If they all went into the water then yes, they'd all have been wrong. Further, if they all went into the water then it would be even more patently obvious they had chosen the wrong shot. This would be pretty obvious by the scores they'd have been making.

Of course it would never work out this way because as soon as several players straight went into the water, the other players - not being plain foolish - would realize there was a better way to play the hole.

[Smith65]

[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425951389' post='11111907']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425948369' post='11111549']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

patrick, if you are a 1 index then you should know that not every shot is worth taking. Some holes are designed to see if the player can make birdie, while others are designed to see if the player is too greedy to lay up. This is one of those holes.

The hole played under par that day, so it obviously was designed so that it was possible top be birdied if played a certain way. It just wasn't designed to receive a 246 yard cut shot, regardless of what club was used to hit that shot. I'm certain that his 246 yard shot didn't have a high traj (to use Tiger's word) even if he did hit a 6 iron. It likely was a lower traj shot, and since it was moving left to right it continued to move left to right once it hit the green. Unlike everyone else who laid up as a group, he made a big number.

The mere fact that hole played in under par that day is the proof the hole was OK. He simply played a poor choice of shots.

BTW, wouldn't you want to play against someone who will guarantee you they will go for everything? So long as they try to shoot at every pin and never once lay up, wouldn't you want to play agisnt such a player? Don't you believe you would beat that person? I would. I'd love to play against someone willing to try to pull off 246 cut shots into greens protected by water on the right.
[/quote]

[b]My opinion is that green should be able to hold a 6 iron with the spin that a club of that loft generates. [/b] I play this course 4-5 times a year and that green is questionable at best. The wind factor is another story I'm not sure what the wind was doing at the time he hit the shot I'm just basing my opinion on the green alone. And no I wouldn't want to play against someone who can hit 245 six irons.
[/quote]


That green can hold a 6 iron if the shot is a draw shot, a straight shot, and perhaps even a baby fade shot placed to the far left of the green. It just can't hold the big cuit shot that JB Holmes hit. The green isn't the issue any more than #11 or #15 at Augusta is an issue. The issue was that Holmes did not hit a good enough shot - he basically played the hole in risky fashion, then complained about it afterwards.

[imakaveli]

Golf is one of the fairest sports out there imho

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425989695' post='11113695']
[quote name='Jamboy72' timestamp='1425949293' post='11111667']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1425948369' post='11111549']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

patrick, if you are a 1 index then you should know that not every shot is worth taking. Some holes are designed to see if the player can make birdie, while others are designed to see if the player is too greedy to lay up. This is one of those holes.

The hole played under par that day, so it obviously was designed so that it was possible top be birdied if played a certain way. It just wasn't designed to receive a 246 yard cut shot, regardless of what club was used to hit that shot. I'm certain that his 246 yard shot didn't have a high traj (to use Tiger's word) even if he did hit a 6 iron. It likely was a lower traj shot, and since it was moving left to right it continued to move left to right once it hit the green. Unlike everyone else who laid up as a group, he made a big number.

The mere fact that hole played in under par that day is the proof the hole was OK. He simply played a poor choice of shots.

BTW, wouldn't you want to play against someone who will guarantee you they will go for everything? So long as they try to shoot at every pin and never once lay up, wouldn't you want to play agisnt such a player? Don't you believe you would beat that person? I would. I'd love to play against someone willing to try to pull off 246 cut shots into greens protected by water on the right.
[/quote]

[b]Just b/c it played under par that day, doesn't mean it's a good hole. By that same logic, a hole that plays over par, is a bad hole.[/b] [b] I don't understand how anyone can say going for a par 5 in two, 6 iron in hand....is a bad play - and this is compounded by the fact he hit the shot he was trying to hit...never in a million years did he think he'd pull the shot off and get the result he did -[/b]
[/quote]

One, I never said that a hole that plays over par is a bad hole. Those are your words, not mine. I don't even believe I endorsed #1 as being "good", as opposed to "fair", which even if I failed to use that word I guess I should note that was my point. The discussion was that the hole set up wasn't really fair, and I disagree with that idea.

As to your second point, going for a par 5 in two with a 6 iron isn't a bad play in and of itself, but going for THIS par 5 from 246 yards (regardless of choice of club) with a CUT SHOT with the water on the right is a bad play. If you disagree that this kind of shot was a wrong choice, then please identify the player that hit a similar shot and had it work out well for him.
[/quote]

No, but you said b/c it played under par it was "Okay" - asserting that how the hole played to par was some type of indication as to whether or not it was a good hole - Everyone gets to have their opinion - I guess I'm going to side with the majority of players who actually played the course and have played tournament golf on more courses than I ever will - It's a bad design - Other's may like it and that's fine - I don't.

[stuey01]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425948663' post='11111583']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425948027' post='11111519']
Pepper- it doesn't matter what the rest of the field did as they did not have the luxury of hitting an approach with a mid iron. I would completely agree if they were all coming in with three woods and two irons but again, it was a SIX IRON. And contrary to what you think, he did not go flag hunting- was a good 25 yds short of the pin. At least. As I said, pretty much landed center of the front part of the green...
[/quote]

Got ya... still, I don't have nearly his SS, yet I can spin balls off greens that are fast, and don't have a dramatic slope. I saw the shot, it did not appear to me, to be in the middle of the green. Holmes' own words: He was more irritated by the bogey on No. 1 than the double bogey at the end of his round, and what set him off was a reminder that he thought the old Blue Monster was too easy for a World Golf Championship. ‘‘There’s a difference between easy and hitting two perfect shots and the ball going in the water,’’ [u][b]Holmes said[/b][/u]. ‘‘That’s a joke. I hit a 6-iron straight up in the air, [u][b]it landed 3 feet off the left of the green and 5 feet on it and it goes in the water on the right side of the green[/b][/u]. That’s not hard. That’s stupid. That’s unfair.’’

He seldom hits a straight ball, and everyone, including announcers talked about it.

Its fair to say, some people on this board either didn't watch that shot, error in memory or simply don't know, but want to argue. Holmes own words tell me, it wasn't in the middle of the green or to the left of the pin as some are suggesting in their argument. There's nothing more to say. Have a good evening.

[url="http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/07/golfrdp/lwK0VZflVJRMiIf10X3R9L/story.html?comments=all&sort=OLDEST_CREATE_DT"]http://www.bostonglo...LDEST_CREATE_DT[/url]
[/quote]

3ft off the left of the green IS to the left of where that pin was.
I've just watched the video again a few times and it lands on the front left of the green, and rolls off the right middle to back.

[hogans71]

[quote name='stuey01' timestamp='1426023547' post='11117149']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425948663' post='11111583']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425948027' post='11111519']
Pepper- it doesn't matter what the rest of the field did as they did not have the luxury of hitting an approach with a mid iron. I would completely agree if they were all coming in with three woods and two irons but again, it was a SIX IRON. And contrary to what you think, he did not go flag hunting- was a good 25 yds short of the pin. At least. As I said, pretty much landed center of the front part of the green...
[/quote]

Got ya... still, I don't have nearly his SS, yet I can spin balls off greens that are fast, and don't have a dramatic slope. I saw the shot, it did not appear to me, to be in the middle of the green. Holmes' own words: He was more irritated by the bogey on No. 1 than the double bogey at the end of his round, and what set him off was a reminder that he thought the old Blue Monster was too easy for a World Golf Championship. ‘‘There’s a difference between easy and hitting two perfect shots and the ball going in the water,’’ [u][b]Holmes said[/b][/u]. ‘‘That’s a joke. I hit a 6-iron straight up in the air, [u][b]it landed 3 feet off the left of the green and 5 feet on it and it goes in the water on the right side of the green[/b][/u]. That’s not hard. That’s stupid. That’s unfair.’’

He seldom hits a straight ball, and everyone, including announcers talked about it.

Its fair to say, some people on this board either didn't watch that shot, error in memory or simply don't know, but want to argue. Holmes own words tell me, it wasn't in the middle of the green or to the left of the pin as some are suggesting in their argument. There's nothing more to say. Have a good evening.

[url="http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/07/golfrdp/lwK0VZflVJRMiIf10X3R9L/story.html?comments=all&sort=OLDEST_CREATE_DT"]http://www.bostonglo...LDEST_CREATE_DT[/url]
[/quote]

3ft off the left of the green IS to the left of where that pin was.
I've just watched the video again a few times and it lands on the front left of the green, and rolls off the right middle to back.
[/quote]

I was pretty certain that it was at worst middle, but I couldn't find video...

[stuey01]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426023664' post='11117171']
[quote name='stuey01' timestamp='1426023547' post='11117149']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1425948663' post='11111583']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1425948027' post='11111519']
Pepper- it doesn't matter what the rest of the field did as they did not have the luxury of hitting an approach with a mid iron. I would completely agree if they were all coming in with three woods and two irons but again, it was a SIX IRON. And contrary to what you think, he did not go flag hunting- was a good 25 yds short of the pin. At least. As I said, pretty much landed center of the front part of the green...
[/quote]

Got ya... still, I don't have nearly his SS, yet I can spin balls off greens that are fast, and don't have a dramatic slope. I saw the shot, it did not appear to me, to be in the middle of the green. Holmes' own words: He was more irritated by the bogey on No. 1 than the double bogey at the end of his round, and what set him off was a reminder that he thought the old Blue Monster was too easy for a World Golf Championship. ‘‘There’s a difference between easy and hitting two perfect shots and the ball going in the water,’’ [u][b]Holmes said[/b][/u]. ‘‘That’s a joke. I hit a 6-iron straight up in the air, [u][b]it landed 3 feet off the left of the green and 5 feet on it and it goes in the water on the right side of the green[/b][/u]. That’s not hard. That’s stupid. That’s unfair.’’

He seldom hits a straight ball, and everyone, including announcers talked about it.

Its fair to say, some people on this board either didn't watch that shot, error in memory or simply don't know, but want to argue. Holmes own words tell me, it wasn't in the middle of the green or to the left of the pin as some are suggesting in their argument. There's nothing more to say. Have a good evening.

[url="http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/07/golfrdp/lwK0VZflVJRMiIf10X3R9L/story.html?comments=all&sort=OLDEST_CREATE_DT"]http://www.bostonglo...LDEST_CREATE_DT[/url]
[/quote]

3ft off the left of the green IS to the left of where that pin was.
I've just watched the video again a few times and it lands on the front left of the green, and rolls off the right middle to back.
[/quote]

I was pretty certain that it was at worst middle, but I couldn't find video...
[/quote]
http://www.pgatour.com/video/2015/03/06/j-b--holmes_-unfortunate-bogey-on-no--1-at-cadillac-championship.html
I found it in pgatour.com, here's a link

[DavePelz4]

Before the shot Frank comments that the ball can't be moving left to right when it hits the ground but then calls it "too good of a shot to deserve that fate." And that it "pitched perfectly."

[Pepperturbo]

Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. Least that how I see it.

Thanks for posting the Video.

[hogans71]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026034' post='11117387']
Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. It doesn't matter what we think, its all opinion.

Thanks for posting the Video.
[/quote]

Who gives a flying f how far he attempted to hit his six iron ! He can it hit that far, as accurately as whatever your straight as humanly possible six iron. The idea that you wouldn't be pissed if you had to lay up from six iron distance is pretty laughable..

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426026567' post='11117453']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026034' post='11117387']
Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. It doesn't matter what we think, its all opinion.

Thanks for posting the Video.
[/quote]

Who gives a flying f how far he attempted to hit his six iron ! He can it hit that far, as accurately as whatever your straight as humanly possible six iron. The idea that you wouldn't be pissed if you had to lay up from six iron distance is pretty laughable..
[/quote]

Give me a break, and stop the incessant arguing, as if your opinion is the gospel, and the only one that has merit. Each of us sees holes and plays the game differently. And, no I wouldn't be pissed because I am NOT Holmes, and don't play the game like him, or you.

[hogans71]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026846' post='11117483']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426026567' post='11117453']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026034' post='11117387']
Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. It doesn't matter what we think, its all opinion.

Thanks for posting the Video.
[/quote]

Who gives a flying f how far he attempted to hit his six iron ! He can it hit that far, as accurately as whatever your straight as humanly possible six iron. The idea that you wouldn't be pissed if you had to lay up from six iron distance is pretty laughable..
[/quote]

Give me a break, and stop the incessant arguing, as if your opinion is the gospel, and the only one that has merit. Each of us sees holes and plays the game differently. And, no I wouldn't be pissed because I am NOT Holmes, and don't play the game like him, or you.
[/quote]

Swing and a miss pep. But.. I still love when you regale us with tales of wealth and merriment. Please, don't stop with that..

[lchang]

From that video, my opinion is that it is bad design. The ball almost stops on the green (as the announcer agrees) while still 15 feet from the edge of the green. Then doesn't just trickle to the edge, but dumps in the water.

That fact--whether it was a wedge, 6-iron, fairway wood approach, or even a little chip shot--is what makes me dislike it.

Some may enjoy a design like that I suppose. Not me.

[Smith65]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426026567' post='11117453']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026034' post='11117387']
Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. It doesn't matter what we think, its all opinion.

Thanks for posting the Video.
[/quote]

Who gives a flying f how far he attempted to hit his six iron ! He can it hit that far, as accurately as whatever your straight as humanly possible six iron. The idea that you wouldn't be pissed if you had to lay up from six iron distance is pretty laughable..
[/quote]


At the US Open at Merion almost every player in the field laid up on the two par 5's on the front. At The Open Championship that Phil won a couple years back, almost every player laid up on the last par 5 on the back (16?). Number 16 at Olympic in 2012, nobody made that in 2. Number 18 at Erin Hills in their US Amateur only 1 player made that green in 2. Number 14 at Pebble Beach and number 15 at Harbour town. These are all basically lay up holes for almost everyone.

Look at the par 4 5th hole at Merion. The slope on that green is way worse than #1 at Doral. Scoring on that hole in the recent US Open was correspondingly worse as well. Do you know where most players were playing their approach shots to that #5 green? Short and left. That is on a par 4. Balls routinely roll off a number of greens at Auguista, and they'll roll off those greens next month just as they always do.

Are all these holes unfair? Who made the rule that green slope can't be a defense for a hole? Where is that written?

[rony]

You know........... Playing from the Middle Tee Box, I really can't comment on this thread. I lay up on Par 3 holes or reach them with my Driver. Isn't that what you're supposed to do?

[rpl1971]

[quote name='Loki' timestamp='1425696467' post='11094255']
I understand that. What happened to Holmes on 1 today is an abomination. He hits a 360 yard drive. With an iron from 246 hits it to the right middle of the green. It rolls off the green, not fast mind you, AND INTO THE WATER. The person that set up the course should be ashamed of themselves. That's not golf, that's just the donald being a jack@$$.
[/quote]

OR hit a a fade to the front of the green and take away that "setup issue"....

[hogans71]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1426076916' post='11120415']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426026567' post='11117453']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026034' post='11117387']
Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. It doesn't matter what we think, its all opinion.

Thanks for posting the Video.
[/quote]

Who gives a flying f how far he attempted to hit his six iron ! He can it hit that far, as accurately as whatever your straight as humanly possible six iron. The idea that you wouldn't be pissed if you had to lay up from six iron distance is pretty laughable..
[/quote]


At the US Open at Merion almost every player in the field laid up on the two par 5's on the front. At The Open Championship that Phil won a couple years back, almost every player laid up on the last par 5 on the back (16?). Number 16 at Olympic in 2012, nobody made that in 2. Number 18 at Erin Hills in their US Amateur only 1 player made that green in 2. Number 14 at Pebble Beach and number 15 at Harbour town. These are all basically lay up holes for almost everyone.

Look at the par 4 5th hole at Merion. The slope on that green is way worse than #1 at Doral. Scoring on that hole in the recent US Open was correspondingly worse as well. Do you know where most players were playing their approach shots to that #5 green? Short and left. That is on a par 4. Balls routinely roll off a number of greens at Auguista, and they'll roll off those greens next month just as they always do.

Are all these holes unfair? Who made the rule that green slope can't be a defense for a hole? Where is that written?
[/quote]

I don't believe that any of these holes can be compared to the first at Doral. Having played both Olympic Club and Erin Hills, I feel confident that both greens would be quite capable of holding JB's six iron approach. I've also played Pebble- the 14th has two very distinct green complexes within that one green. Both parts I feel could handle his approach with such a club as well. You listed a few others and noted that almost no one went for the green in two or couldn't reach in two- that's not at all what I'm discussing. Besides, what EXACTLY is the penalty for missing the green of all you list? At worst a greenside bunker or rough- Harbor Town has a pond on that hole- a good twenty yards away. What I'm saying is, I find it a bit of a poor design when one's approach, struck with a six iron, manages to hit middle to middle left of front, and then proceeds to cover another 35 yards of roll out, through both fringe and rough and into the lake. I mean, it's not like he bladed the thing from 145 yards out!

I'd feel entirely different if we were discussing an approach with a fairway wood/utility/long iron. But were not- its a six iron. Perfectly struck six iron at that...

[hogans71]

[url="http://www.pgatour.com/video/2015/03/06/j-b--holmes_-unfortunate-bogey-on-no--1-at-cadillac-championship.html#ooid=U4aWhzczqLzwwLYkdp2zPlMoVC82Bons"]http://www.pgatour.c...p2zPlMoVC82Bons[/url]

Anyone know how to embed video- feel free to change this. Would be much appreciated..



Edit- Listen to the commentary regarding the rough and green conditions...

[Playaway]

[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

You can only comment if you hit it "straight as humanly possible".

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1426094927' post='11122325']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

You can only comment if you hit it "straight as humanly possible".
[/quote]

Really??? Am I the only one on Golfwrx that hits it as straight as humanly possible? I don't think so............ A draw into that green would have played just as well as relatively straight to the right side.

[Playaway]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426091231' post='11121979']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1426076916' post='11120415']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426026567' post='11117453']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026034' post='11117387']
Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. It doesn't matter what we think, its all opinion.

Thanks for posting the Video.
[/quote]

Who gives a flying f how far he attempted to hit his six iron ! He can it hit that far, as accurately as whatever your straight as humanly possible six iron. The idea that you wouldn't be pissed if you had to lay up from six iron distance is pretty laughable..
[/quote]


At the US Open at Merion almost every player in the field laid up on the two par 5's on the front. At The Open Championship that Phil won a couple years back, almost every player laid up on the last par 5 on the back (16?). Number 16 at Olympic in 2012, nobody made that in 2. Number 18 at Erin Hills in their US Amateur only 1 player made that green in 2. Number 14 at Pebble Beach and number 15 at Harbour town. These are all basically lay up holes for almost everyone.

Look at the par 4 5th hole at Merion. The slope on that green is way worse than #1 at Doral. Scoring on that hole in the recent US Open was correspondingly worse as well. Do you know where most players were playing their approach shots to that #5 green? Short and left. That is on a par 4. Balls routinely roll off a number of greens at Auguista, and they'll roll off those greens next month just as they always do.

Are all these holes unfair? Who made the rule that green slope can't be a defense for a hole? Where is that written?
[/quote]

I don't believe that any of these holes can be compared to the first at Doral. Having played both Olympic Club and Erin Hills, I feel confident that both greens would be quite capable of holding JB's six iron approach. I've also played Pebble- the 14th has two very distinct green complexes within that one green. Both parts I feel could handle his approach with such a club as well. You listed a few others and noted that almost no one went for the green in two or couldn't reach in two- that's not at all what I'm discussing. Besides, what EXACTLY is the penalty for missing the green of all you list? At worst a greenside bunker or rough- Harbor Town has a pond on that hole- a good twenty yards away. What I'm saying is, I find it a bit of a poor design when one's approach, struck with a six iron, manages to hit middle to middle left of front, and then proceeds to cover another 35 yards of roll out, through both fringe and rough and into the lake. I mean, it's not like he bladed the thing from 145 yards out!

I'd feel entirely different if we were discussing an approach with a fairway wood/utility/long iron. But were not- its a six iron. Perfectly struck six iron at that...
[/quote]

Give you an example. Go play the upper course at Baltusrol. Greens are very sloped and balls will run off. Don't be above the hole. The thing there is, balls run off into rough or run off areas. You have a shot. They do not run off into water. One of the funnest courses I have ever played, BTW.

[Playaway]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426095148' post='11122357']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1426094927' post='11122325']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

You can only comment if you hit it "straight as humanly possible".
[/quote]

Really??? Am I the only one on Golfwrx that hits it as straight as humanly possible? I don't think so............ A draw into that green would have played just as well as relatively straight to the right side.
[/quote]

[color=#ff0000]Humanly possible[/color]. Really? I can't stop laughing at that. The WRX poster boy! Does that include the best human players in the world?

You'd be easy to shop for at Christmas. Instead of a tie, how about another mirror.?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1426095546' post='11122403']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426095148' post='11122357']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1426094927' post='11122325']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

You can only comment if you hit it "straight as humanly possible".
[/quote]

Really??? Am I the only one on Golfwrx that hits it as straight as humanly possible? I don't think so............ A draw into that green would have played just as well as relatively straight to the right side.
[/quote]

[color=#ff0000]Humanly possible[/color]. Really? I can't stop laughing at that. The WRX poster boy! Does that include the best human players in the world?

You'd be easy to shop for at Christmas. Instead of a tie, how about another mirror.?
[/quote]

I am glad people like you are entertained at my expense... though its a mirror, 2D humanly shallow vision. People like you need so much to feel good.

[Playaway]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426096083' post='11122479']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1426095546' post='11122403']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426095148' post='11122357']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1426094927' post='11122325']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

You can only comment if you hit it "straight as humanly possible".
[/quote]

Really??? Am I the only one on Golfwrx that hits it as straight as humanly possible? I don't think so............ A draw into that green would have played just as well as relatively straight to the right side.
[/quote]

[color=#ff0000]Humanly possible[/color]. Really? I can't stop laughing at that. The WRX poster boy! Does that include the best human players in the world?

You'd be easy to shop for at Christmas. Instead of a tie, how about another mirror.?
[/quote]

I am glad people like you are entertained at my expense... though its a mirror, 2D humanly shallow vision. People like you need so much to feel good.
[/quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtKydtoLucc

[soap1984]

This whole "my opinion is valid, you have your opinion I have mine so you aren't entitled to question it.." stuff is pretty funny. Opinions are made to be ridiculed especially when they are clearly biased and make no sense to anyone. There is no point in arguing with a person like this; you are entitled to your opinion but not entitled to an opinion about peppers opinion lol, makes a ton of sense.

I don't like JB Holmes at all, but I can recognize that this just simply wasn't fair. Everyone wants to see people take risks, Phil is beloved, Tiger was a phenom...they didn't get to that status by laying up on every par 5 especially with a 6 iron in hand. If you think that is a good and fairly designed hole then you either don't like golf, or have no ability to separate your dislike for a certain player from what is a rational opinion.

Once again just my opinion

[hogans71]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426095148' post='11122357']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1426094927' post='11122325']
[quote name='patrick421' timestamp='1425946830' post='11111393']
Pepper, the guy hit the right center of the green and played for roll towards the pin. If you are gonna hit that green with the club Holmes had you couldn't have landed it a better spot. Is it fathomable that the green is slightly too sloped in the specific area where the ball rolled off the green? I'm a 1 index hope that qualifies me to comment.
[/quote]

You can only comment if you hit it "straight as humanly possible".
[/quote]

Really??? Am I the only one on Golfwrx that hits it as straight as humanly possible? I don't think so............ A draw into that green would have played just as well as relatively straight to the right side.
[/quote]

Yes pepper. You are indeed the only one here who hits it as straight as humanly possible...

[Smith65]

[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426091231' post='11121979']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1426076916' post='11120415']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426026567' post='11117453']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026034' post='11117387']
Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. It doesn't matter what we think, its all opinion.

Thanks for posting the Video.
[/quote]

Who gives a flying f how far he attempted to hit his six iron ! He can it hit that far, as accurately as whatever your straight as humanly possible six iron. The idea that you wouldn't be pissed if you had to lay up from six iron distance is pretty laughable..
[/quote]


At the US Open at Merion almost every player in the field laid up on the two par 5's on the front. At The Open Championship that Phil won a couple years back, almost every player laid up on the last par 5 on the back (16?). Number 16 at Olympic in 2012, nobody made that in 2. Number 18 at Erin Hills in their US Amateur only 1 player made that green in 2. Number 14 at Pebble Beach and number 15 at Harbour town. These are all basically lay up holes for almost everyone.

Look at the par 4 5th hole at Merion. The slope on that green is way worse than #1 at Doral. Scoring on that hole in the recent US Open was correspondingly worse as well. Do you know where most players were playing their approach shots to that #5 green? Short and left. That is on a par 4. Balls routinely roll off a number of greens at Auguista, and they'll roll off those greens next month just as they always do.

Are all these holes unfair? Who made the rule that green slope can't be a defense for a hole? Where is that written?
[/quote]

I don't believe that any of these holes can be compared to the first at Doral. Having played both Olympic Club and Erin Hills, I feel confident that both greens would be quite capable of holding JB's six iron approach. I've also played Pebble- the 14th has two very distinct green complexes within that one green. Both parts I feel could handle his approach with such a club as well. You listed a few others and noted that almost no one went for the green in two or couldn't reach in two- that's not at all what I'm discussing. Besides, what EXACTLY is the penalty for missing the green of all you list? At worst a greenside bunker or rough- Harbor Town has a pond on that hole- a good twenty yards away. What I'm saying is, I find it a bit of a poor design when one's approach, struck with a six iron, manages to hit middle to middle left of front, and then proceeds to cover another 35 yards of roll out, through both fringe and rough and into the lake. I mean, it's not like he bladed the thing from 145 yards out!

I'd feel entirely different if we were discussing an approach with a fairway wood/utility/long iron. But were not- its a six iron. Perfectly struck six iron at that...
[/quote]


There are too many greens to name that don't hold side spin shots from 240+ yards, and loads of them where you need to be just as perfect from much shorter distances. Just at Augusta you have the approach at #9 that Greg Norman f'd up when he blew his 6 shot lead to Faldo, the approach at #11 which is totally wicked and that Ben Hogan said about it "If you see me hit onto the green there I missed my shot left", the tee shot at the short 12th hole that has killed so many player's chances, and the second shot into 15 green if you go for it. That shot can end up anywhere.

That 5th hole at Merion has a much harder to hold green than #1 at Doral. The green on the Redan hole #7 at Shinnecock is 2x worse than Doral #1. The 16th at Bethpage Black is sloped very severely from left to right making it nearly impossible to par if you do not miss below the hole. Number 11 at Congressional with the water on the right is ridiculous.

The approach shots to these greens are as tough or tougher, since these are not 5 pars, than #1 at Doral.

[hogans71]

[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1426102416' post='11123147']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426091231' post='11121979']
[quote name='Smith65' timestamp='1426076916' post='11120415']
[quote name='hogans71' timestamp='1426026567' post='11117453']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1426026034' post='11117387']
Hitting a cut (note his finish) with a right quartering breeze; the only reason he's hitting 6i = 246yrds. And notice how the ball behaved when it hit the green. It started immediately running right following the slope on the green. He knew it was a fast green and had a right slope. He would have had a better hole hitting 3wd off the tee, laying up the ole fashion way, using wedge spin into the right of the pin and birdie putt. It doesn't matter what we think, its all opinion.

Thanks for posting the Video.
[/quote]

Who gives a flying f how far he attempted to hit his six iron ! He can it hit that far, as accurately as whatever your straight as humanly possible six iron. The idea that you wouldn't be pissed if you had to lay up from six iron distance is pretty laughable..
[/quote]


At the US Open at Merion almost every player in the field laid up on the two par 5's on the front. At The Open Championship that Phil won a couple years back, almost every player laid up on the last par 5 on the back (16?). Number 16 at Olympic in 2012, nobody made that in 2. Number 18 at Erin Hills in their US Amateur only 1 player made that green in 2. Number 14 at Pebble Beach and number 15 at Harbour town. These are all basically lay up holes for almost everyone.

Look at the par 4 5th hole at Merion. The slope on that green is way worse than #1 at Doral. Scoring on that hole in the recent US Open was correspondingly worse as well. Do you know where most players were playing their approach shots to that #5 green? Short and left. That is on a par 4. Balls routinely roll off a number of greens at Auguista, and they'll roll off those greens next month just as they always do.

Are all these holes unfair? Who made the rule that green slope can't be a defense for a hole? Where is that written?
[/quote]

I don't believe that any of these holes can be compared to the first at Doral. Having played both Olympic Club and Erin Hills, I feel confident that both greens would be quite capable of holding JB's six iron approach. I've also played Pebble- the 14th has two very distinct green complexes within that one green. Both parts I feel could handle his approach with such a club as well. You listed a few others and noted that almost no one went for the green in two or couldn't reach in two- that's not at all what I'm discussing. Besides, what EXACTLY is the penalty for missing the green of all you list? At worst a greenside bunker or rough- Harbor Town has a pond on that hole- a good twenty yards away. What I'm saying is, I find it a bit of a poor design when one's approach, struck with a six iron, manages to hit middle to middle left of front, and then proceeds to cover another 35 yards of roll out, through both fringe and rough and into the lake. I mean, it's not like he bladed the thing from 145 yards out!

I'd feel entirely different if we were discussing an approach with a fairway wood/utility/long iron. But were not- its a six iron. Perfectly struck six iron at that...
[/quote]


There are too many greens to name that don't hold side spin shots from 240+ yards, and loads of them where you need to be just as perfect from much shorter distances. Just at Augusta you have the approach at #9 that Greg Norman f'd up when he blew his 6 shot lead to Faldo, the approach at #11 which is totally wicked and that Ben Hogan said about it "If you see me hit onto the green there I missed my shot left", the tee shot at the short 12th hole that has killed so many player's chances, and the second shot into 15 green if you go for it. That shot can end up anywhere.

That 5th hole at Merion has a much harder to hold green than #1 at Doral. The green on the Redan hole #7 at Shinnecock is 2x worse than Doral #1. The 16th at Bethpage Black is sloped very severely from left to right making it nearly impossible to par if you do not miss below the hole. Number 11 at Congressional with the water on the right is ridiculous.

The approach shots to these greens are as tough or tougher, since these are not 5 pars, than #1 at Doral.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with some of what you are saying but in this instance, the length and par of the hole mean nothing. He hit a six iron, carried it about 210 into the front left part of the green. It then proceeded to roll over thirty yards, then through the fringe, then through rough, into the lake. The ball had zero pace on it- literally damn near stopped.

If you didn't watch the video I linked, check it out. Even the commentators stated that the hole was NOT designed that way. And if a ball was moving at such a pace that it trickles off the green, the fringe/rough would prevent it from going in the water. That was per the designer or superintendent...