Spin Rates of Balata vs Modern Urethane Balls

[Holy Moses]

On PGA Tour Radio, Dennis Paulson has been arguing that today's pros aren't as great of wedge players compared to pros who used balata balls. What are the spin rates of balata vs urethane balls with a wedge? What about proximity from 125 in 2014 compared to the 80s and 90s?

[Cwebb]

If anyone is not as good a wedge player as someone from the past....it's certainly not because of ball technology itself

[knock it close]

Yea not because of ball technology, I think its more due to how the game has changed. It would be cool if someone got on trackman for a comparison between a modern ball and balata, probably one out there

[Cwebb]

[quote name='knock it close' timestamp='1425923583' post='11108963']
Yea not because of ball technology, I think its more due to how the game has changed. It would be cool if someone got on trackman for a comparison between a modern ball and balata, probably one out there
[/quote]

The significant differences in spin, happen with irons and driver in the comparison. The highest spin modern ball designs still spin just as much as balata did, for partial wedge shots

[cristphoto]

The old Balata balls spun much more than todays balls. This Titleist chart from 19 years ago shows Tour Balata spin with 8 iron at 9900 rpm. Full wedge was even more

[cristphoto]

WTF is with the add in the above post? Its cropping out part of the photo. If you click on the photo itself you can see the full version.

[SplashShot]

I don't see any adds.. I love chrome ad blocker plus!

Also loved that picture.. I have a couple Titlist tour balata 100's I've never hit, I might have to test them.

[cristphoto]

[quote name='SplashShot' timestamp='1425953280' post='11112147']
I don't see any adds.. I love chrome ad blocker plus!

Also loved that picture.. I have a couple Titlist tour balata 100's I've never hit, I might have to test them.
[/quote]

Weird. On my desktop I see an add on post #1 and 5.

[Gauchograd99]

There are a couple of factors to be added into those numbers regarding the spin rates:
1) 19 years ago there were grooves that are now illegal which might or might not have added to the spin rate.
2) Today's 9 iron is yesteryear's 8 iron... give or take. (set dependent)

Not 100% certain of my spin rate on the 9 iron, but it is somewhere in the range of 9200 rpm (PW is 10,250-10,600 rpm). The balata would still be higher in theory, but I would also love to see both hit today on a robot and see spins across the board (driver, long/mid/short iron, and wedges).

[Choclab]

[quote name='cristphoto' timestamp='1425930337' post='11109777']
The old Balata balls spun much more than todays balls. This Titleist chart from 19 years ago shows Tour Balata spin with 8 iron at 9900 rpm. Full wedge was even more
[/quote]Agree, I remember when I first started playing at the end of the balata era, you could hit a 3/4 or even less knockdown wedge shot and it would stop like a lawn dart. Today's balls spin plenty and are better overall, but they don't spin *that* much. Of course, they don't have to.

As far as what Paulson means, I'm guessing he means that today's pros don't have to worry about overspinning the ball like they did with a balata ball? Today's pros can use pretty much their normal swing and unless the green is sloped or they're going into a strong wind, they don't have to worry much about the ball spinning off the green. That's all I can think of as far as his statement.

[Holy Moses]

No, Paulson said it's harder to spin urethane balls and you have to be less aggressive with wedges

[cxx]

You really had to be there to believe it. Balata balls came out low off the irons with a sizzling sound and bit into the greens. They were shorter than surlyn covered balls but that was the trade off you made back then. The trouble with trying them now is that the rubber is so old. First off they were wound construction. That is, the core (liquid filled rubber) was wound in a long rubber band several layers deep and covered with the balata. I just don't think an old ball will behave anything like when it was new.

There were other balls that spun like crazy too. Greg Norman used to spin his irons from one end of the green to the other with the tour edition ball. He really wasn't trying to spin it that much and it hurt his scoring, but he did and everyone wanted to spin their wedges off the green. They even made illegal wedges with a saw tooth pattern so anyone could do it.

[ben w]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1426107128' post='11123773']They even made illegal wedges with a saw tooth pattern so anyone could do it.
[/quote]

I found one of those Spin Doctor wedges in the local Goodwill store for something like $3.50, with the plastic reverse grooves (blades) on the face. It was funny watching range balls back up 30 yards on dormant bermuda.

[grochol17]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1426107128' post='11123773']
You really had to be there to believe it. Balata balls came out low off the irons with a sizzling sound and bit into the greens.
[/quote]

The spin was crazy... I remember hitting a 3 iron into a firm green with a Rextar balata and I got the ball to back up a few feet. Of course, with how soft the covers were there was almost no durability to those balls. As a kid the worst thing was catching one thin, even on pitch shots, because you were almost guaranteed of having to replace the ball.

[cxx]

Yes, they would go out of round too. A friend had a go-nogo gage, (a circle cut out of a piece of metal) to ensure that the ball was still round.

[T.Beau]

balata spun like crazy.....the problem was that it spun like crazy on all shots. so get a little bit too much side spin w. the driver (which was very easy to do back then w. persimmon) and you are looking at Oscar Brown and a re tee. the modern urethane ball is designed to spin less on full swings like w. the driver and more on the shorter shots. the best of both worlds and makes the game much easier.

[Par Fore]

It seems to me that Dennis Pausing kind of has the, "the older I get the better I was mentality".

[MadGolfer76]

I played balata for my first ten years of golf. It was no big deal. At least with the persimmon heads (I seem to remember) you could control the amount of spin you got by varying how you struck the ball. You had to be a bit more precise, but there were still guys like Daly, Couples, Love and Norman who were bombing the crap out of them even back in the day.

[cxx]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1426211703' post='11132871']
I played balata for my first ten years of golf. It was no big deal. At least with the persimmon heads (I seem to remember) you could control the amount of spin you got by varying how you struck the ball. You had to be a bit more precise, but there were still guys like Daly, Couples, Love and Norman who were bombing the crap out of them even back in the day.
[/quote]

Oh, I don't know. Most of the players of that generation claim that the old balls spun a lot more on bad driver strikes and resulted in much more right/left movement. When the prov1 came out, Titleist had an educational advertising campaign touting the drop and stop iron play rather than relying on excessive spin, implying higher launch and less spin with the new balls. This was the same time that driver distances soared. I suppose they may have been wrong.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Holy Moses' timestamp='1425919514' post='11108519']
On PGA Tour Radio, Dennis Paulson has been arguing that today's pros aren't as great of wedge players compared to pros who used balata balls. What are the spin rates of balata vs urethane balls with a wedge? What about proximity from 125 in 2014 compared to the 80s and 90s?
[/quote]
One has to remember that the agronomy was very different back then. Fairways and aprons were not as tight or firm. The ball sat up a little more and it was easier for talented pro's to do things. Also the greens in many cases were more receptive (different surfaces and didn't Stimp out at 12-14) so the ball actually had a chance to take the spin or stop like the pro intended. Put yesterday's pro out with today's conditions and they wouldn't fare any better, imo.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1426253365' post='11135037']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1426211703' post='11132871']
I played balata for my first ten years of golf. It was no big deal. At least with the persimmon heads (I seem to remember) you could control the amount of spin you got by varying how you struck the ball. You had to be a bit more precise, but there were still guys like Daly, Couples, Love and Norman who were bombing the crap out of them even back in the day.
[/quote]

Oh, I don't know. Most of the players of that generation claim that the old balls spun a lot more on bad driver strikes and resulted in much more right/left movement. When the prov1 came out, Titleist had an educational advertising campaign touting the drop and stop iron play rather than relying on excessive spin, implying higher launch and less spin with the new balls. This was the same time that driver distances soared. I suppose they may have been wrong.
[/quote]

The players of that generation (which I came in on the tail end of) sucked just as bad with balata as current players do with ProV's. It is all relative. When the ProV1 came out, the "wow" factor for it certainly was the distance, but guys were still raking it back off greens. People learn to make things work depending on the equipment on hand.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1426253365' post='11135037']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1426211703' post='11132871']
I played balata for my first ten years of golf. It was no big deal. At least with the persimmon heads (I seem to remember) you could control the amount of spin you got by varying how you struck the ball. You had to be a bit more precise, but there were still guys like Daly, Couples, Love and Norman who were bombing the crap out of them even back in the day.
[/quote]

Oh, I don't know. Most of the players of that generation claim that the old balls spun a lot more on bad driver strikes and resulted in much more right/left movement. When the prov1 came out, Titleist had an educational advertising campaign touting the drop and stop iron play rather than relying on excessive spin, implying higher launch and less spin with the new balls. This was the same time that driver distances soared. I suppose they may have been wrong.
[/quote]

The difference was big with the driver, because at that point we had the best of all worlds in a premium tour ball. Something that had multiple layers, allowing different spin rates with different clubs. High spin with wedges, but lower relative spin with a driver.

Back in the day, we had to make a sacrifice when making a ball decision. It was basically either high spin with all clubs (balata)....or low spin with everything with a surlyn covered ball. The only semi middle ground, was the Titleist DT, which was a surlyn covered wound ball.

The only guys who could really maximize distance with the driver back then, were naturally high launch players like Nicklaus, Norman, Love, Couples, and then Daly and Woods. They were able to use very low loft driver heads to keep spin down....and then acheive enough launch angle with their natural ability. For example, I believe Davis Love used a 7-8* persimmon head

[drvrwdge]

Ive always hit the ball far. Most certainly farther now with the driver and I assume it has something to do with both ball and club technology but I would argue more so with the driver. I know 20 years ago I hit my 7i the same distance I hit it now and I was using balata's back then. Slazenger, Titleist, Top-Flite Z Balata (probably my favorite). I do know for a fact though that the drives have gotten longer.

[PingEye2]

[quote name='Gauchograd99' timestamp='1425972959' post='11113247']There are a couple of factors to be added into those numbers regarding the spin rates:
1) 19 years ago there were grooves that are now illegal which might or might not have added to the spin rate.
2) Today's 9 iron is yesteryear's 8 iron... give or take. (set dependent)

Not 100% certain of my spin rate on the 9 iron, but it is somewhere in the range of 9200 rpm (PW is 10,250-10,600 rpm). The balata would still be higher in theory, but I would also love to see both hit today on a robot and see spins across the board (driver, long/mid/short iron, and wedges).[/quote]

If you are recalling correctly you're spinning the PW more than the average tour player (see attachment). The issue is more part wedges anyway as far as less spin.

One of the things Paulson was saying is with the balata if he needed to hit a 40 yard wedge one swing and the 45 the next he just swung a bit harder. He said now with the modern ball a bit harder may go 12 yards further rather than 5. I can see that may be valid.

[stratdogg_pro]

Paulson is right on. Balata balls spun more on partial wedge shots than urathane balls do. It took the guess work out of the shot when using balata. All you had to do was fly it near the pin and it would stop after maybe one bounce and a little trickle. Also those tricky short sided lofted pitches with no green to work with were much easier with balata. They just flat out stopped faster so it was much easier to get those close. The urethane ball of today scoots much more and the first bounce almost always seems to be much more jumpy which makes it harder to hit delicate pitches close with consistency.

[Gauchograd99]

[quote name='PingEye2' timestamp='1426685490' post='11165661']
[quote name='Gauchograd99' timestamp='1425972959' post='11113247']There are a couple of factors to be added into those numbers regarding the spin rates:
1) 19 years ago there were grooves that are now illegal which might or might not have added to the spin rate.
2) Today's 9 iron is yesteryear's 8 iron... give or take. (set dependent)

Not 100% certain of my spin rate on the 9 iron, but it is somewhere in the range of 9200 rpm (PW is 10,250-10,600 rpm). The balata would still be higher in theory, but I would also love to see both hit today on a robot and see spins across the board (driver, long/mid/short iron, and wedges).[/quote]

If you are recalling correctly you're spinning the PW more than the average tour player (see attachment). The issue is more part wedges anyway as far as less spin.

One of the things Paulson was saying is with the balata if he needed to hit a 40 yard wedge one swing and the 45 the next he just swung a bit harder. He said now with the modern ball a bit harder may go 12 yards further rather than 5. I can see that may be valid.
[/quote]

I double checked it today with a 46 degree wedge and I was about 9800rpm... it was a 50 degree that was 10,200rpm. My current irons are basically 1000*# (i.e. 6 iron about 6,000) and the PW is close with the gap being on the spot. Explains better yardage. I am afraid to know what it was back in the HT Balata days... just saying.

[sigmapete1]

[quote name='Holy Moses' timestamp='1425919514' post='11108519']
On PGA Tour Radio, Dennis Paulson has been arguing that today's pros aren't as great of wedge players compared to pros who used balata balls. What are the spin rates of balata vs urethane balls with a wedge? What about proximity from 125 in 2014 compared to the 80s and 90s?
[/quote]

So the guy who played back then says players were better back then? Sounds legit.

[Soloman1]

We had to be better back then because all of the golf courses were uphill.

From the time you left the clubhouse until you got back, it was uphill all the way. So much uphill that you never saw the flags on the greens, so we had to be more precise with exactly how much spin we put on those balatas.

I remember putting so much spin on balatas that the ball would just hover in the air like a helicopter. Physics was different then, anyway. Back then, according to the Laws of Physics, you aimed path where you wanted the ball to start and set the face where you wanted it to end up. And we got more spin by hitting down, but the Laws of Physics changed and now you don't get more spin that way.

Ah, those were the good old days...

[puttingmatt]

I remember being able to watch a balata ball spin back on greens with wedges,today the urethane ball just sits on greens with wedges. Spin rates
may be less, and the grooves are different in wedges. Also I was lucky
to get in 18 holes without cutting a
balata ball. Todays ball last much longer.

[Troutfly]

Well now, this doesn't look good for the "how important is the ball" thread.