First Trackman session...

[pkudela]

My club had a Titleist demo day this morning. For the past two seasons I have struggled to come to grips with my driver and my driver swing. I was stuck in the dream of gaining more distance. My handicap has gone up due to errant drives and loss of confidence with hitting my driver. I went to the demo day in hopes of finding a 915 that would solve all of my problems.

 

I am left handed. Currently I am a 2 handicap. I have been as high as a 5 (end of last season).

 

Driver: Titleist 910 D2 Project X 6.0 Stiff in 9.5* loft, B2 setting on the head (more loft, more draw). Typical shot shape is a straight ball flight, with just a smidgen of fall to the left (baby fade). Not too high, but definetly not low. I told the rep my typical driver carried around 240 and ended up between 260-270. Miss is usually a push/fade to the left.

 

After a good warmup, the rep sets me up on our grass range, with typical yellow range balls in front of Trackman and has me hit 5 balls with my current driver. He records the numbers and reaches for a 915 9.5* and two different Diamana shafts. I hit balls with each and he records them. The entire time he is just kind of laughing to himself. He then tells me, "Hit 5 more with your current driver. And hit them like you would during a competitive round. Pre shot routine and all". I hit 5 balls and he then shows me my averages with my current driver..

 

Swing Speed: 99

Ball Speed: 149

Launch: 13.1

AoA: 5.7 up

Spin: 1,670

Carry: 239

Total: 278

Impact Tape showed mostly upper center contact with a slight bias towards the heel.

 

He told me I wasn't even close to those numbers with the other shafts. The ball flight with the Diamana shafts was much lower than my Project X 6.0. He then suggested I try a 915D2 with my current shaft. The result was higher spin of about 300rpm, slightly more carry, but less total distance. The rep loved my ball flight, and told me "I simply cannot sell you a new driver. Not with the numbers and flight you are producing with the 910". He also said he hadn't seen someone with that low of a spin rate without intentionally altering clubs to achieve it.

 

He equated my stats to a tennis player hitting an over hand, top spinning shot. He also asked me if I ever play a draw and my reply to him was, "whenever I try to hit a draw with my driver, its more of a pull hook then a draw".

 

I play the ProV1x as my everyday ball. I asked him if he thought the regular ProV1 would benefit me more and he said he never fits balls for driver, rather he fits balls for the short game. But if I could get used to the regular ProV1 around the greens, then he firmly believes I can gain a little bit more distance with the regular ProV1 due to more spin and a little more carry.

 

I thanked him for not trying to sell me anything that I did not need and for his honesty. I then stayed and hit some more drives with my current setup. It's such a relief to me to know that my issues are more the proverbial "indian and not the arrow".

 

Overall I was impressed with my first Trackman experience. I feel like I can just swing freely now and know that I am "optimized" for my swing.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Did you tell the fitter your HC has gone up due to errant drivers? Having a hard time understanding the thread....you say you're hitting driver poorly but your Tman session showed perfectly optimized set up. Did he show you any of your swing #s?

Your spin rate is WAY too low at your club head speed....that will contribute to shots curving more offline.

[gators78]

Hitting up almost 6 degrees? Yowza...

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='pkudela' timestamp='1432234004' post='11602774']
My club had a Titleist demo day this morning. For the past two seasons I have struggled to come to grips with my driver and my driver swing. I was stuck in the dream of gaining more distance. My handicap has gone up due to errant drives and loss of confidence with hitting my driver. I went to the demo day in hopes of finding a 915 that would solve all of my problems.

I am left handed. Currently I am a 2 handicap. I have been as high as a 5 (end of last season).

Driver: Titleist 910 D2 Project X 6.0 Stiff in 9.5* loft, B2 setting on the head (more loft, more draw). Typical shot shape is a straight ball flight, with just a smidgen of fall to the left (baby fade). Not too high, but definetly not low. I told the rep my typical driver carried around 240 and ended up between 260-270. Miss is usually a push/fade to the left.

After a good warmup, the rep sets me up on our grass range, with typical yellow range balls in front of Trackman and has me hit 5 balls with my current driver. He records the numbers and reaches for a 915 9.5* and two different Diamana shafts. I hit balls with each and he records them. The entire time he is just kind of laughing to himself. He then tells me, "Hit 5 more with your current driver. And hit them like you would during a competitive round. Pre shot routine and all". I hit 5 balls and he then shows me my averages with my current driver..

Swing Speed: 99
Ball Speed: 149
Launch: 13.1
AoA: 5.7 up
Spin: 1,670
Carry: 239
Total: 278
Impact Tape showed mostly upper center contact with a slight bias towards the heel.

He told me I wasn't even close to those numbers with the other shafts. The ball flight with the Diamana shafts was much lower than my Project X 6.0. He then suggested I try a 915D2 with my current shaft. The result was higher spin of about 300rpm, slightly more carry, but less total distance. The rep loved my ball flight, and told me "I simply cannot sell you a new driver. Not with the numbers and flight you are producing with the 910". He also said he hadn't seen someone with that low of a spin rate without intentionally altering clubs to achieve it.

He equated my stats to a tennis player hitting an over hand, top spinning shot. He also asked me if I ever play a draw and my reply to him was, "whenever I try to hit a draw with my driver, its more of a pull hook then a draw".

I play the ProV1x as my everyday ball. I asked him if he thought the regular ProV1 would benefit me more and he said he never fits balls for driver, rather he fits balls for the short game. But if I could get used to the regular ProV1 around the greens, then he firmly believes I can gain a little bit more distance with the regular ProV1 due to more spin and a little more carry.

I thanked him for not trying to sell me anything that I did not need and for his honesty. I then stayed and hit some more drives with my current setup. It's such a relief to me to know that my issues are more the proverbial "indian and not the arrow".

Overall I was impressed with my first Trackman experience. I feel like I can just swing freely now and know that I am "optimized" for my swing.
[/quote]

Spin way too low and likely hitting up too much.

What are your path and face yo path numbers

[Golfrnut]

Two things that put up some flags if you are testing equipment which will heavily skew the results.

-range balls
-impact tape

Neither are good, and can change just about every launch monitor figure out there in terms of ball data.

[pkudela]

Impact tape was NOT used while I was on the unit. I should have stated that before. Tape was used while hitting balls afterwards.

Monte, I dont have the exact numbers on me but i want to say it was something around -0.8 out-to-in and the club path around -1.6ish..I thought the spin number was low myself. I do have the ball forward of my stance (like you told me in our video lesson). I have worked on gradually moving it back closer to the heel of my right foot rather then the outside of my right foot.

[iteachgolf]

You want spin 2700-3000. 2,000 would be too low let alone 1,600

[lastmacuser]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1432238220' post='11603254']
You want spin 2700-3000. 2,000 would be too low let alone 1,600
[/quote]

I've read a lot about what too much spin does. What does too little spin do with the driver?

[airjammer]

The ball falls out of the air.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='airjammer' timestamp='1432239743' post='11603412']
The ball falls out of the air.
[/quote]
or curves like a mofo

[pkudela]

Neither of which are happening to me. Could the range balls be producing that low spin number?

[Golfrnut]

Yes...

Range balls usually produce lower spin numbers than the normal balls that you would play with. Can also give launch angle numbers that are a bit different than what you would see as well.

Also worthy of noting...

The upper center face contact will also tend to lessen the spin amounts because of the gear effect.


You can also take into account that unless you play fairways that are very hard with a lot of run, real world results may not agree with those numbers from TM. TM computes very high roll rates using a "hard" turf, so even though you said the lower spin resulted in more total distance, that may not be the case in the real world where your carry average would be higher with more spin. It could be exactly the opposite.

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432239794' post='11603422']
[quote name='airjammer' timestamp='1432239743' post='11603412']
The ball falls out of the air.
[/quote]
or curves like a mofo
[/quote]

I am missing the relationship here. Are you referencing the overall stability of the flight from the lower spin?

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='pkudela' timestamp='1432241135' post='11603574']
Neither of which are happening to me. Could the range balls be producing that low spin number?
[/quote]

You said the demo was at your club correct? Which I would assume was done outside. Absolutely on the range balls, and the higher face impact as well. You said your driver was causing your HC to go up and you were losing your confidence off the tee. What is happening with your driver that's causing you problems?....because based on your descriptions everything is perfect. Even if the #s on the radar show good launch, ball speed, distance, ect....you stated that you wanted to find a Titleist set up that would fix your issues. What are they?

I also agree that hitting up that much is probably causing issues in face and path control.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1432242288' post='11603716']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432239794' post='11603422']
[quote name='airjammer' timestamp='1432239743' post='11603412']
The ball falls out of the air.
[/quote]
or curves like a mofo
[/quote]

I am missing the relationship here. Are you referencing the overall stability of the flight from the lower spin?
[/quote]
Spin loft. His would be very low, which is why his ball speed is very high given his club speed. Causes more curve at a lower spin loft when face path don't match.

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432243911' post='11603916']
[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1432242288' post='11603716']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432239794' post='11603422']
[quote name='airjammer' timestamp='1432239743' post='11603412']
The ball falls out of the air.
[/quote]
or curves like a mofo
[/quote]

I am missing the relationship here. Are you referencing the overall stability of the flight from the lower spin?
[/quote]
Spin loft. His would be very low, which is why his ball speed is very high given his club speed. Causes more curve at a lower spin loft when face path don't match.
[/quote]

yeah...but...when you are talking say 6* of loft vs 10*, you really aren't creating that much of a difference IMO. You're changing a lot more of the spin rate with that change than you are than the ability to start tilting the axis. Now if we start talking 2-3 clubs worth of loft and start getting into the double-digits...then yeah...sure.

[pkudela]

My issues were with trying to gain more distance. I had a sick feeling that would I was currently playing was not condusive to maximizing distance and that I NEEDED the newest and next best thing out there as far as drivers go. The craving for more distance was also causing overswinging issues and the desire to hit a draw in an attempt to get more roll out. A draw is not my shot shape at all. I went from hitting a little fade down the fairway 260-270, to trying to hit a draw and spraying the ball with a two-way miss.

I know the rep is not a Trackman guru. However, the dudes uses the device every single day. I had to assume he at least kinda knew what he was looking at and could interpret the data. Even just generally.

As far as a Titleist setup that would fix my issues, according to the rep, I already have it in my bag in the 910 with ProjectX 6.0. I guess what I am trying to get at is that I think my issues were more mental, than mechanical. I dont have the best swing by any means. I have my physical limitations just like everyone else. But if I can repeat my mediocore swing and hit fairways with a decent amount of distance in the process, I am fine with that.AKA, have realistic expectations.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Cool. If distance was your main pursuit and not directional issues than it sounds like you worked with an ethical guy. Not many out there believe it or not. Some guys like to get a little tricky with the 'normalize' function on Trackman to move units. It sounded like you were spraying driver based on OP.

[pkudela]

The guy was really cool. Almost seemed like he was the, "yeah I work the Titleist, but I dont get paid commission so use what you want. We make money regardless" type. I feel like knowing the driver im using isnt going to hurt me, it gives me closure knowing that unless I work on my swing speed and some mechanical issues, I wont be gaining much more distance.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1432244158' post='11603946']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432243911' post='11603916']
[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1432242288' post='11603716']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432239794' post='11603422']
[quote name='airjammer' timestamp='1432239743' post='11603412']
The ball falls out of the air.
[/quote]
or curves like a mofo
[/quote]

I am missing the relationship here. Are you referencing the overall stability of the flight from the lower spin?
[/quote]
Spin loft. His would be very low, which is why his ball speed is very high given his club speed. Causes more curve at a lower spin loft when face path don't match.
[/quote]

yeah...but...when you are talking say 6* of loft vs 10*, you really aren't creating that much of a difference IMO. You're changing a lot more of the spin rate with that change than you are than the ability to start tilting the axis. Now if we start talking 2-3 clubs worth of loft and start getting into the double-digits...then yeah...sure.
[/quote]
It's just one factor in explaining it. He'd likely be at like 8 or 9 degrees spin loft which would contribute but it also sounds like he's missing high on the face and using hard range balls. But a ball with 1600 spin is going to curve more than one at 3000 with same face and path #s....just like how a knuckleball 'floats' and doesn't hold it's line well.

[pkudela]

Thank you for your replies, btw.

[Unteachable]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432244892' post='11604018']
Cool. If distance was your main pursuit and not directional issues than it sounds like you worked with an ethical guy. Not many out there believe it or not. Some guys like to get a little tricky with the 'normalize' function on Trackman to move units. It sounded like you were spraying driver based on OP.
[/quote]

Quick question about the normalization- every time I have had a trackman fitting the results say "data normalized for 80 degrees with no wind and a premium ball". Is that bad or misleading? I assume it was adjusting to the typical crosswind at the outdoor area I have done fittings

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432245463' post='11604078']
It's just one factor in explaining it. He'd likely be at like 8 or 9 degrees spin loft which would contribute but it also sounds like he's missing high on the face and using hard range balls. But a ball with 1600 spin is going to curve more than one at 3000 with same face and path #s....just like how a knuckleball 'floats' and doesn't hold it's line well.
[/quote]


Actually...if you listen to the people that created this stuff, it does not.

Spin rates are not in the equation, it only takes into account the axis tilt and the amount of distance in carry. So in this case, where is carry would actually be hurt by the lack of spin, the higher spin rate would curve more because of the increased carry distance. However, when we are talking 10 yards of difference in carry with a different spin, the difference is negligible. Or, if you make the case that the lower spin loft would tilt the axis more for the same amount of face/path, then they would probably virtually cancel one another out, or again...make the differences pretty much negligible.

I can always be convinced...but as of right now, we gotta disagree

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1432254178' post='11604880']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432245463' post='11604078']
It's just one factor in explaining it. He'd likely be at like 8 or 9 degrees spin loft which would contribute but it also sounds like he's missing high on the face and using hard range balls. But a ball with 1600 spin is going to curve more than one at 3000 with same face and path #s....just like how a knuckleball 'floats' and doesn't hold it's line well.
[/quote]


[b]Actually...if you listen to the people that created this stuff, it does not.[/b]

Spin rates are not in the equation, it only takes into account the axis tilt and the amount of distance in carry. So in this case, where is carry would actually be hurt by the lack of spin, the higher spin rate would curve more because of the increased carry distance. However, when we are talking 10 yards of difference in carry with a different spin, the difference is negligible. Or, if you make the case that the lower spin loft would tilt the axis more for the same amount of face/path, then they would probably virtually cancel one another out, or again...make the differences pretty much negligible.

I can always be convinced...but as of right now, we gotta disagree
[/quote]

That's the problem, I don't listen to everything they say. I base off real world experience. A super low spin driver will of course fall out of the air and dive quick but will also dive left or right quick. Think drop kick. Spin keeps the ball in the air and will go further and further left/right I guess, technically, but the quickest way to hit the ball OB is to hit it sideways with no spin. Diving left or right faster.

[PingEye2]

To my knowledge range balls typically[b] spin more[/b] off the driver than a premium ball.

[goatbarn]

I believe you can't just say range balls and then they do this or that.

I think you can say that most suck.

Some spin high some lower, some have imperfections that cause other erratic flights.

They're not premium balls and they're not predictable. This is why we don't play tournament golf with them.

If they were predictable, they'd be great to play golf with because if you didn't lose them you'd need maybe 3-4 balls a year.

[JustTheTips]

[quote name='PingEye2' timestamp='1432308191' post='11608256']
To my knowledge range balls typically[b] spin more[/b] off the driver than a premium ball.
[/quote]

It sort of depends. The real solution is to go to golfsmith (or any indoor place) and hit some shots with your normal balls. You are likley to see+-2 degrees of launch angle and 300-400 RPMs of spin difference. That is enough to matter a bit (call it 10 yards).

The answer here is that you are not getting more than about 275 with a 100mph swing. If you want more distance it isn't coming from the club. You need your swing or your body.

[GeoffDickson]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432239794' post='11603422']
[quote name='airjammer' timestamp='1432239743' post='11603412']
The ball falls out of the air.
[/quote]
or curves like a mofo
[/quote]

I always associated high spin with lots of curve. Why is that low spin driver shots curve more (and not less)?

[Krt22]

The ball only spins on a single axis, so if the spin is at all off axis then you will have two vector components that shape the path, one will elevate the ball ("backspin")and one will curve the ball ("side spin"). The spin of the ball itself creates a pressure gradient around the ball, which is responsible for the forces that shape the ball flight. So if you have very low total spin and there is significant side spin, it will have a greater impact on the flight. That's why clean center hits on low spin drivers can produce great results, but can have very poor results on Mishits. Subsequently they can produce poor results even on clean hits if you don't have the proper swing speed/launch conditions (fall out of the air)

A similar principal applies to rifling of barrels of firearms. Bullets rotate at high speeds to stabilize their flight, if the rifling isn't correct for the projectile size, accuracy suffers

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1432329288' post='11610288']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1432239794' post='11603422']
[quote name='airjammer' timestamp='1432239743' post='11603412']
The ball falls out of the air.
[/quote]
or curves like a mofo
[/quote]

I always associated high spin with lots of curve. Why is that low spin driver shots curve more (and not less)?
[/quote]
There's a couple reasons. The 'textbook' one is because spin is created by spin loft and when you have a low lofted club coming into the ball fairly shallow you get more of a direct hit on the ball. When that happens it creates lower spin and will curve alot more because the silly d plane gets more tilted the closer it gets together. That only explains the difference between driver and say a short iron however. Comparing a low spin drive to a high spin drive, it doesn't really curve 'more' in the textbook sense, it just curves alot faster/earlier. If it can't stay in the air without the drag created by the spin, and it's axis is tilted, it wants to take a nose dive. It may not be more offline than a curving driver with high spin, but it's likely out of play early because it's falling down and sideways much quicker.