How to train your subconscious

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='jbw749' timestamp='1436825953' post='11941950']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436824336' post='11941780']
[quote name='jbw749' timestamp='1436822958' post='11941672']
[quote name='David C' timestamp='1436816701' post='11940938']
Pre-shot routine. Clear your mind, once you step over the line it's non-conscious.

Part of the thing with mechanical changes is a lack of trust or/and a misconception about trust. Your swing will have changed or it won't. If it hasn't you are going to have the 'flaw' whether you apply a swing thought or not. So better not to and pick a target and trust your subconscious to compensate for the flaw in the 1 second of the downswing than stilted and broken conscious decisions. Swing the club, get a feel, rhythm, tempo, cross the line and do it.

Videoed someone who claimed to be employing a swing thought and they were gobsmacked their swing hadn't changed.

No other sport set piece involves a thought about technique.
[/quote]

Great explanation. So swing thoughts actually hurt our chances, because they get in the way of what the subconscious wants to do.
I haven't heard that take thanks.
[/quote]

The subconcious wants to pork the cart girl at the turn. That doesn't necessarily help us throw a wedge in close to a tucked pin.
[/quote]

Another extremely good explanation, but I have had swing thoughts as long as I've golfed (with them changing all the time) the thought of not having them is very intriguing.
It may be why I've been stuck at a 5 handicap for years. I know my putting has drastically improved since using Dave Stocktons stuff. So why not move it into the full swing?
[/quote]

I don't know what Stockton goes into with his approach, but I know the subconscious is an animal that goes where it pleases. If you aren't playing with intent and focusing on...something...you leave yourself open to any particular thought straying into your mind at any time, which (ironically) is the exact opposite of what you are after. Absence creates a mental vacuum, where anything can enter.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Hoot151' timestamp='1436826745' post='11942010']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436824080' post='11941760']
Nnn...I'm not sure there is much difference when everything gets boiled down, but to each their own.
[/quote]

Again, I find this interesting given your earlier post and how thoughts relate to music. [b]Seems there's a huge difference between the guitar player who is thinking "I'm going to play this solo exactly how I practiced it in the minor pentatonic first position" (internal) and a blues great who just plays what they feel as the song progresses (external).[/b]
[/quote]

It would seem that way on the surface, until a person digs deeper. Blues and jazzmen are curiously renowned for their creativity, but if you really boil down their playing to the basic parts, you will see that most have come up with their signature licks and patterns, and have repeated them ad nauseum over the course of decades. For me, it is the drums. One of my favorite players was Max Roach, who I had the opportunity to see play live before his death. Max was the drummer for Charlie Parker back in the 1940's (I saw him play in the late 1990's) and led his own bands afterward. I transcribed his work extensively from 1940(ish) till the 1960's. When I saw him play in the late 90's...he was playing all the same s*** he played in his earlier years. It may have been in a different sequence or ornamented slightly different, but the same licks were still in use. To me, that isn't much different than the classical musician repeating the minor pentatonic. It is just that the blues musician is repeating his own original work vs. the classical musician repeating excerpts of the work of others.

Interesting comparison too, seeing as how the minor pent and blues scale are essentially the same thing.

[jbw749]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436827421' post='11942054']
[quote name='jbw749' timestamp='1436825953' post='11941950']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436824336' post='11941780']
[quote name='jbw749' timestamp='1436822958' post='11941672']
[quote name='David C' timestamp='1436816701' post='11940938']
Pre-shot routine. Clear your mind, once you step over the line it's non-conscious.

Part of the thing with mechanical changes is a lack of trust or/and a misconception about trust. Your swing will have changed or it won't. If it hasn't you are going to have the 'flaw' whether you apply a swing thought or not. So better not to and pick a target and trust your subconscious to compensate for the flaw in the 1 second of the downswing than stilted and broken conscious decisions. Swing the club, get a feel, rhythm, tempo, cross the line and do it.

Videoed someone who claimed to be employing a swing thought and they were gobsmacked their swing hadn't changed.

No other sport set piece involves a thought about technique.
[/quote]

Great explanation. So swing thoughts actually hurt our chances, because they get in the way of what the subconscious wants to do.
I haven't heard that take thanks.
[/quote]

The subconcious wants to pork the cart girl at the turn. That doesn't necessarily help us throw a wedge in close to a tucked pin.
[/quote]

Another extremely good explanation, but I have had swing thoughts as long as I've golfed (with them changing all the time) the thought of not having them is very intriguing.
It may be why I've been stuck at a 5 handicap for years. I know my putting has drastically improved since using Dave Stocktons stuff. So why not move it into the full swing?
[/quote]

I don't know what Stockton goes into with his approach, but I know the subconscious is an animal that goes where it pleases. If you aren't playing with intent and focusing on...something...you leave yourself open to any particular thought straying into your mind at any time, which (ironically) is the exact opposite of what you are after. Absence creates a mental vacuum, where anything can enter.
[/quote]

Both Stockton and Adam Young use the signing your signature analogy. It can't be done consciously the same way you do it subconsciously. I know how my signature looks, but have no clue how I write it.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='jbw749' timestamp='1436829858' post='11942226']

Both Stockton and Adam Young use the signing your signature analogy. It can't be done consciously the same way you do it subconsciously. I know how my signature looks, [b]but have no clue how I write it.[/b]
[/quote]

By feel, which is a conscious response act.

[BenHoganSlam1953]

[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1436797301' post='11938772']
Lots of reps in slow motion. Focus on doing the mechanics right at slow speed. Start at 10% speed with a full swing. Then move to 25% speed once you get the mechanics you want consistently at 10%. Then 50%, 75% and onto 100%.

Then add a golf ball to the equation and start at 10% speed. You might top the ball and hit it 10 yards, but the goal is to do the mechanics you want and avoid doing the mechanics incorrectly.

Then move onto 25% speed with the ball, then 50% and so on.

If you're struggling with getting the mechanics at a certain speed level, move it down a notch until you get them right again.

If you can't get the mechanics right at 75%, go back to 50% and really try to connect the dots between what is going on at 75% (which is wrong) versus 50% (which is right). Close your eyes to help get a better sense of it.

Once you move to 100% speed, hit a ball at 100% speed, then take a practice swing at 50% or 25% speed. Then hit a ball at 100% speed. Rinse and repeat.

The general principle here is that you're better off doing hitting 100 balls with the 'correct' mechanics than you are hitting 1,000 balls and doing 500 of them 'correctly' and the other 500 'incorrectly.' You obviously want to get more reps doing it 'correctly', but you want to avoid doing them incorrectly. You can't just 'rep it out' and hit balls and think you'll get the hang of it. You have to do it right and avoid doing it wrong to get the hang of it.

And the goal is NOT to develop a 'swing feel' or a visual like "[i]ringing the bell with your left arm" [/i]or "[i]pulling the grip up off the shaft."[/i] Those are just swing thoughts and not 'feel.' My sister was an accomplished violinist. For fun, she could listen to a popular song on the radio and then play the song with her violin in a heartbeat without seeing any sheet music. It's because she had developed a true feel and sense for how to play the violin. She could hear a sound and she could sense what movements she needed to make to produce the sound she was hearing. She wasn't thinking about each note and chord as she was playing. That's why those type of 'swing feels' and visuals fail in the end.

It's also wise to pay close attention to the speed of your swing when you practice this way in transition. Transition is where the speed has a quick change of direction. So when you practice in slow motion, be aware of the transition and slow that down a bit more. Still focus on getting the mechanics you want (you can use a mirror).

From there, when you get on the course, the only time you should have swing thoughts, if necessary, is on the practice swing. Don't be afraid to do the practice swing in slow motion. Also, 'call your shot' on every shot. Pick your target and what shot you want to hit such as "[i]I'm aiming at that tree on the left and I'm going to hit a high fade back to the center of the fairway."[/i] When you do that, your focus now becomes on the shot and target instead of the mechanics of your swing.










RH
[/quote]

Awesome post. I saved this to my phone to keep things in perspective.

[jbw749]

Are there any plus handicapers or instuctors reading this that want to chime in here? Do you use swing thoughts? How did you get there if you don't? This might be the first thread dornstar hasn't posted in.

[LaggingBehind]

I know this is going to come off as ridiculous but i'll say it anyway. I've been improving much more since I've [i][u][b]quit[/b][/u][/i] hitting balls on the range. At the end of the range session I always left with a different swing than I started with, so if I practiced hitting balls during the week then my swing was completely different that weekend vs the previous weekend. I'd also gain about a million swing thoughts from each practice session [b][i][u]all of which were purely distractions from my fundamentals.[/u][/i][/b]

Instead I focus on grip, posture, and feeling the release. Also, I practice my preshot routine and visualize the shot i'm trying to hit while recalling a feel of me hitting that shot in a previous round. I can do this at home without ever hitting a ball and get to the course with a very familiar and repeatable swing without a crap ton of swing thoughts.

It works best when done within a day after a round. Pick a shot that you hit great and recall the feel. Set up for it, visualize, and feel.

Alluding to what RH said (Great post by the way, thank you for that), I get my visualization correct 100% of the time. I don't get my release correct 100% of the time though, and thats where my inconsistencies lie at the moment, "Crap, that release felt just like a block" lol. A recent grip adjustment has improved it though, along with the swing thought of getting my left shoulder around (i'm lefty).

I'm not a great golfer but I can strike the ball well for a weekend warrior who doesn't have much time to practice.

[rustyhobo]

I've always wondered why i never see teaching pros taking away the ball and doing slow motion work. Its how i would teach and it only takes a slight understanding in motor learning and motor patterns to understand why it would work.

I hate being next to lessons where ball after ball is being hit at full speed as if the player is going to spontaneously get it right that way.

Makes me want to scream, "Youre wasting your time and money!"

[wmblake2000]

I was wondering if the whole idea of conscious vs unconscious isn't a little off target. I was thinking the key is 'trust' which I am going to define as the degree to which you intuit or foresee a positive outcome, even though you don't consciously manipulate many of the variables, and relinquish using concern (aka control) to try to rectify expectation of a poor outcome.

I can say this. One can cultivate greater trust. I don't know if people can play purely without conscious thought. I thought madgolfer76 made some great points about that - and I also know we do many things (turn on a light switch, for example) with almost no conscious effort. But we do have the intention to get more light. So as things get learned, they require less conscious effort. There is much more in a golf swing that we don't focus on than that we do consciously attend to.

So I am thinking there are two separate things here. One is about how well we've learned a move and, thus, how much conscious intention is required to replicate it.. The more we've learned it (for good or bad), the easier it is to do (and the more difficult to undo!) The second is about trust. The more we've learned to trust the freer we play to our current potential. One may still have a swing thought/feel/image while feeling trust. It is difficult to feel trust if the feedback from the results of your swing is 'my swing sucks.' It is also true that some people are capable of greater trust than others and it is this baseline capability that is worth growing, imo.

[aliikane]

I practice using the subconscious a lot in putting by not looking at the hole and try to guess if the ball is short/long left/right by feel. Most of the time you are right. It has helped my lag putting with distance control.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='jbw749' timestamp='1436799119' post='11938914']
[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1436797301' post='11938772']
Lots of reps in slow motion. Focus on doing the mechanics right at slow speed. Start at 10% speed with a full swing. Then move to 25% speed once you get the mechanics you want consistently at 10%. Then 50%, 75% and onto 100%.

Then add a golf ball to the equation and start at 10% speed. You might top the ball and hit it 10 yards, but the goal is to do the mechanics you want and avoid doing the mechanics incorrectly.

Then move onto 25% speed with the ball, then 50% and so on.

If you're struggling with getting the mechanics at a certain speed level, move it down a notch until you get them right again.

If you can't get the mechanics right at 75%, go back to 50% and really try to connect the dots between what is going on at 75% (which is wrong) versus 50% (which is right). Close your eyes to help get a better sense of it.

Once you move to 100% speed, hit a ball at 100% speed, then take a practice swing at 50% or 25% speed. Then hit a ball at 100% speed. Rinse and repeat.

The general principle here is that you're better off doing hitting 100 balls with the 'correct' mechanics than you are hitting 1,000 balls and doing 500 of them 'correctly' and the other 500 'incorrectly.' You obviously want to get more reps doing it 'correctly', but you want to avoid doing them incorrectly. You can't just 'rep it out' and hit balls and think you'll get the hang of it. You have to do it right and avoid doing it wrong to get the hang of it.

And the goal is NOT to develop a 'swing feel' or a visual like "[i]ringing the bell with your left arm" [/i]or "[i]pulling the grip up off the shaft."[/i] Those are just swing thoughts and not 'feel.' My sister was an accomplished violinist. For fun, she could listen to a popular song on the radio and then play the song with her violin in a heartbeat without seeing any sheet music. It's because she had developed a true feel and sense for how to play the violin. She could hear a sound and she could sense what movements she needed to make to produce the sound she was hearing. She wasn't thinking about each note and chord as she was playing. That's why those type of 'swing feels' and visuals fail in the end.

It's also wise to pay close attention to the speed of your swing when you practice this way in transition. Transition is where the speed has a quick change of direction. So when you practice in slow motion, be aware of the transition and slow that down a bit more. Still focus on getting the mechanics you want (you can use a mirror).

From there, when you get on the course, the only time you should have swing thoughts, if necessary, is on the practice swing. Don't be afraid to do the practice swing in slow motion. Also, 'call your shot' on every shot. Pick your target and what shot you want to hit such as "[i]I'm aiming at that tree on the left and I'm going to hit a high fade back to the center of the fairway."[/i] When you do that, your focus now becomes on the shot and target instead of the mechanics of your swing.










RH
[/quote]

Good post Richie,

What about maddog76 saying you better get used to swinging with swing thoughts? He's been a member here since the beginning of time.
[/quote]hey JB, I hope all's well and you're having a great season

I'm not going to get into a discussion here regarding this subject and my opinion on it because my views and thought are well documented in this area however I will say two things-

1) This is an exceptional post by Richie

2) There are not 3 members on this board that I respect more than Mad, however I would be very reluctant to equate his tenure as a member with the validity of his post, opinions or views-

I do not see how one has anything to do with the other-

And for the record-

I disagree 100% with what is realistically possible to ingrain in one's subconscious mind

As I've also stated previously, and I think that both Mad and I are examples of this, though I haven't been a member here but a little but, and that is that we can state our thoughts, views and opinions and we can be on different sides of the table, yet we handle it like adults and Gentlemen, stating our views and letting the members decide who the agree with.

This is a very complicated area however in 2012, my last in the game, at a +2.7, I did not have swing thoughts in either my conscious or subconscious mind when I pulled a club, went through my PSR and stepped into address-

I would never tell someone else what they had in their minds, and I realize that Jack said that he could have up to 5 swing thoughts in his mind at swing time, and though Jack is my GOAT as a Player, he has said a few things that, not being able to be verified, such as this, have caused me to raise an eye brow.

Well, I wish you the very best with your season

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[MrJones]

On the range I concentrate on setups and different swing thoughts. I have things I work on and certain key things I'm trying to ingrain.

On the course though my swing thought is always something simple: Turn it over. Hold the release. Smash it. Just getting it rolling. I pick any one of these or others and that's my focus.

In the past I was really bad about trying to "fix" my swing halfway through a round after a few bad swings.

These simple thoughts keep me focused on intent through the shot/putt and allow me to play my round without over analyzing every bad swing I make. I happen to play better when I ignore mechanics and just swing the club.

[Biomateur]

[quote name='SixtySomePing' timestamp='1436826942' post='11942028']
I have epilepsy. So I have complex partial seizures. Included with them is automatism. Check out some youtube videos about complex partial seizures with automatism so you can see what it is
[/quote]

Sorry to hear it. However, again, I thought of the notion 'automatism' NOT in this particular medical sense.

[pmcuk]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436793772' post='11938504']

Unless you are in a coma, your mind is not going to be free of swing thoughts. Better to find a way to use them productively rather than attempt to eliminate them completely.

[/quote]

That's pretty true in practice. In theory you can get into the zone through mindfulness, relaxation and slow breathing if you're interested in pursuing this. Zen, no ego stuff.

The problem here is that you are learning proprioception - where your limbs are in space. Not as easy as memorising data.

The theory says that memorising is best:

- When you have no interruptions and can get into deeper levels of immersion
- When you repeat what you learn at regular intervals (distributed practice)
- When you repeat a successful performance several times over before going on to other things ("overlearning")

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='pmcuk' timestamp='1436893045' post='11947164']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436793772' post='11938504']
Unless you are in a coma, your mind is not going to be free of swing thoughts. Better to find a way to use them productively rather than attempt to eliminate them completely.

[/quote]

That's pretty true in practice. In theory you can get into the zone through mindfulness, relaxation and slow breathing if you're interested in pursuing this. Zen, no ego stuff.

The problem here is that you are learning proprioception - where your limbs are in space. Not as easy as memorising data.

The theory says that memorising is best:

- When you have no interruptions and can get into deeper levels of immersion
- When you repeat what you learn at regular intervals (distributed practice)
- When you repeat a successful performance several times over before going on to other things ("overlearning")
[/quote]

I know all about it through engaging in professional music training for nearly twenty years. At no point does the mind go unconscious and the body performs on autopilot. People think that is what happens when someone gets "in the zone," but it doesn't happen that way.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436896155' post='11947576']
[quote name='pmcuk' timestamp='1436893045' post='11947164']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436793772' post='11938504']
Unless you are in a coma, your mind is not going to be free of swing thoughts. Better to find a way to use them productively rather than attempt to eliminate them completely.

[/quote]

That's pretty true in practice. In theory you can get into the zone through mindfulness, relaxation and slow breathing if you're interested in pursuing this. Zen, no ego stuff.

The problem here is that you are learning proprioception - where your limbs are in space. Not as easy as memorising data.

The theory says that memorising is best:

- When you have no interruptions and can get into deeper levels of immersion
- When you repeat what you learn at regular intervals (distributed practice)
- When you repeat a successful performance several times over before going on to other things ("overlearning")
[/quote]

I know all about it through engaging in professional music training for nearly twenty years. At no point does the mind go unconscious and the body performs on autopilot. People think that is what happens when someone gets "in the zone," but it doesn't happen that way.
[/quote]I agree with this 100%

Very Well Stated Bro!!

A little OT(haha, what's new), however do you still play professionally?

Have a great day

My Best,
Richard

[David C]

My thoughts are:

No one EVER dissects a great shot like they do a bad one.

What's more important to performing well, having a great swing but believing yours is flawed or believing you have a great swing? What's more likely to perform under pressure?

If I pointed out all your flaws would you perform better?

Would you now depend on hope and doubt and not trust?

Lots of people believe they made a 'perfect swing' somehow different from their others. As opposed to one where the brain compensated (not just in a negative sense of te word) most effectively.

I think this leads to ball-beating in practise and trying to harness 'auto-correction' but thinking too much and getting in the way of the auto-correction happening. And no ideas for how to practise.

A conscious mechanical swing thought interrupts your innate athleticism and is unlikely to 'correct' a 'flaw'. The brain anticipates memories of the motion in swinging a club, give it the chance to remember.

If you perceive flaws and not 'idiosyncrasies' (that can be improved) and don't believe that your brain can work with you, you will never truly trust your swing because logically it is flawed. Logically you will therefore need a mechanism to correct it - a swing thought. I would like to play this person for money next weekend

Especially when the body is in motion the brain cares about balance.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1436897382' post='11947712']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436896155' post='11947576']
[quote name='pmcuk' timestamp='1436893045' post='11947164']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436793772' post='11938504']
Unless you are in a coma, your mind is not going to be free of swing thoughts. Better to find a way to use them productively rather than attempt to eliminate them completely.

[/quote]

That's pretty true in practice. In theory you can get into the zone through mindfulness, relaxation and slow breathing if you're interested in pursuing this. Zen, no ego stuff.

The problem here is that you are learning proprioception - where your limbs are in space. Not as easy as memorising data.

The theory says that memorising is best:

- When you have no interruptions and can get into deeper levels of immersion
- When you repeat what you learn at regular intervals (distributed practice)
- When you repeat a successful performance several times over before going on to other things ("overlearning")
[/quote]

I know all about it through engaging in professional music training for nearly twenty years. At no point does the mind go unconscious and the body performs on autopilot. People think that is what happens when someone gets "in the zone," but it doesn't happen that way.
[/quote]I agree with this 100%

Very Well Stated Bro!!

A little OT(haha, what's new), however do you still play professionally?

Have a great day

My Best,
Richard
[/quote]

I wish I played more these days Richard, but it doesn't pay the bills anymore and I got girls to feed. I got around the block a few times, so I don't have many regrets about it.

[wmblake2000]

The other thing I was thinking... someone quoted Dave Stockton and his thing about deliberately copying your signature as evidence of unconscious vs conscious performance. But when a child learn to write, the practice over and over how to make letters. The point is, until a motion is learned, it is conscious and only then sinks into 'unconscious.'

So my guess is if you're still learning a motion, it has to be conscious. With putting, a very simple motion, I mainly just see a spot I want to roll it over and have essentially no thinking about how to do this. But I have a clear guiding intention and this is conscious.

But Madgolfer, when you play, there are a ton of things you're doing that you're not attending to consciously. But I agree. I am consciously focused on something when I play. There are some things I do where I am 'consciously unconscious' .. zen kinds of things. But even when I am 'in a zone' I am conscious of my intention and maybe some mechanical parts of a swing. It's just that my trust is sky high and that is the primary controlling perspective. It feels effortless, which describes trust rather than unconscious to me.

[vman]

All golfers play with conscious thoughts and most,if not all,battle with the wrong or negative kind,even Nicklaus or Woods in their prime.Great golfers have played with swing thoughts or keys that have varied day to day or hole to hole.Directing your thoughts with clarity and towards positive intention should be easy but it seems not.
As far as technique building it's a long process and is never finished because golf ball control cannot be mastered.Slow motion work I believe is essential.If there's one trait I've noticed over the years about the best players,taking for granted they're good ball strikers,it's distance control with irons.

[pmcuk]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436896155' post='11947576']
[quote name='pmcuk' timestamp='1436893045' post='11947164']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1436793772' post='11938504']
Unless you are in a coma, your mind is not going to be free of swing thoughts. Better to find a way to use them productively rather than attempt to eliminate them completely.

[/quote]

That's pretty true in practice. In theory you can get into the zone through mindfulness, relaxation and slow breathing if you're interested in pursuing this. Zen, no ego stuff.

The problem here is that you are learning proprioception - where your limbs are in space. Not as easy as memorising data.

The theory says that memorising is best:

- When you have no interruptions and can get into deeper levels of immersion
- When you repeat what you learn at regular intervals (distributed practice)
- When you repeat a successful performance several times over before going on to other things ("overlearning")
[/quote]

I know all about it through engaging in professional music training for nearly twenty years. At no point does the mind go unconscious and the body performs on autopilot. People think that is what happens when someone gets "in the zone," but it doesn't happen that way.
[/quote]

Yeah - I'm a musician too, professional bassist up into my 30s. You can get into the zone for a few minutes, say before going on stage or practising, and this does have a useful effect. I've used this several times. It doesn't last much longer than minutes unless you're very good at meditation, which I'm not.

What is interesting about music, though, is that your brain can be processing music without using words. Some version of that should be possible in golf and other sports where you're not going through the intermediary of words. .

[sonofagunn]

I like thinking about how you climb a ladder. You simply think "go up the ladder" - and if you want to go up faster, you just think "go faster up the ladder."

If you were to start thinking about the angle of your elbows, your grip pressure, and making sure your left foot moved in sync with your right hand, you would fail spectacularly and fall off the ladder - especially as you tried to do it at a faster speed.

I think most golfers are failing spectacularly at swinging a golf club because we are thinking about mechanics. The swing thought has to be "low draw toward the target" or "high and straight" or something like that.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1436935630' post='11951818']
The other thing I was thinking... someone quoted Dave Stockton and his thing about deliberately copying your signature as evidence of unconscious vs conscious performance. But when a child learn to write, the practice over and over how to make letters. The point is, until a motion is learned, it is conscious and only then sinks into 'unconscious.'

So my guess is if you're still learning a motion, it has to be conscious. With putting, a very simple motion, I mainly just see a spot I want to roll it over and have essentially no thinking about how to do this. But I have a clear guiding intention and this is conscious.

But Madgolfer, when you play, [b]there are a ton of things you're doing that you're not attending to consciously.[/b] But I agree. I am consciously focused on something when I play. There are some things I do where I am 'consciously unconscious' .. zen kinds of things. But even when I am 'in a zone' I am conscious of my intention and maybe some mechanical parts of a swing. It's just that my trust is sky high and that is the primary controlling perspective. It feels effortless, which describes trust rather than unconscious to me.
[/quote]

There are things like breathing that are physical survival actions that the body maintains in either a conscious or unconscious state, but actions that carry intent and purpose are conscious acts on their face. Trust me, there is no part of this discussion that I haven't fully considered.

[northgolf]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1437005452' post='11956644']
[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1436935630' post='11951818']
The other thing I was thinking... someone quoted Dave Stockton and his thing about deliberately copying your signature as evidence of unconscious vs conscious performance. But when a child learn to write, the practice over and over how to make letters. The point is, until a motion is learned, it is conscious and only then sinks into 'unconscious.'

So my guess is if you're still learning a motion, it has to be conscious. With putting, a very simple motion, I mainly just see a spot I want to roll it over and have essentially no thinking about how to do this. But I have a clear guiding intention and this is conscious.

But Madgolfer, when you play, [b]there are a ton of things you're doing that you're not attending to consciously.[/b] But I agree. I am consciously focused on something when I play. There are some things I do where I am 'consciously unconscious' .. zen kinds of things. But even when I am 'in a zone' I am conscious of my intention and maybe some mechanical parts of a swing. It's just that my trust is sky high and that is the primary controlling perspective. It feels effortless, which describes trust rather than unconscious to me.
[/quote]

There are things like breathing that are physical survival actions that the body maintains in either a conscious or unconscious state, but actions that carry intent and purpose are conscious acts on their face. Trust me, there is no part of this discussion that I haven't fully considered.
[/quote]

But Sensei, what is the sound of one hand clapping?

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1437005542' post='11956652']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1437005452' post='11956644']
[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1436935630' post='11951818']
The other thing I was thinking... someone quoted Dave Stockton and his thing about deliberately copying your signature as evidence of unconscious vs conscious performance. But when a child learn to write, the practice over and over how to make letters. The point is, until a motion is learned, it is conscious and only then sinks into 'unconscious.'

So my guess is if you're still learning a motion, it has to be conscious. With putting, a very simple motion, I mainly just see a spot I want to roll it over and have essentially no thinking about how to do this. But I have a clear guiding intention and this is conscious.

But Madgolfer, when you play, [b]there are a ton of things you're doing that you're not attending to consciously.[/b] But I agree. I am consciously focused on something when I play. There are some things I do where I am 'consciously unconscious' .. zen kinds of things. But even when I am 'in a zone' I am conscious of my intention and maybe some mechanical parts of a swing. It's just that my trust is sky high and that is the primary controlling perspective. It feels effortless, which describes trust rather than unconscious to me.
[/quote]

There are things like breathing that are physical survival actions that the body maintains in either a conscious or unconscious state, but actions that carry intent and purpose are conscious acts on their face. Trust me, there is no part of this discussion that I haven't fully considered.
[/quote]

But Sensei, what is the sound of one hand clapping?
[/quote]

It is a tone similar to juvenile passive aggressive commentary.

[Tanner25]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1437006890' post='11956796']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1437005542' post='11956652']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1437005452' post='11956644']
[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1436935630' post='11951818']
The other thing I was thinking... someone quoted Dave Stockton and his thing about deliberately copying your signature as evidence of unconscious vs conscious performance. But when a child learn to write, the practice over and over how to make letters. The point is, until a motion is learned, it is conscious and only then sinks into 'unconscious.'

So my guess is if you're still learning a motion, it has to be conscious. With putting, a very simple motion, I mainly just see a spot I want to roll it over and have essentially no thinking about how to do this. But I have a clear guiding intention and this is conscious.

But Madgolfer, when you play, [b]there are a ton of things you're doing that you're not attending to consciously.[/b] But I agree. I am consciously focused on something when I play. There are some things I do where I am 'consciously unconscious' .. zen kinds of things. But even when I am 'in a zone' I am conscious of my intention and maybe some mechanical parts of a swing. It's just that my trust is sky high and that is the primary controlling perspective. It feels effortless, which describes trust rather than unconscious to me.
[/quote]

There are things like breathing that are physical survival actions that the body maintains in either a conscious or unconscious state, but actions that carry intent and purpose are conscious acts on their face. Trust me, there is no part of this discussion that I haven't fully considered.
[/quote]

But Sensei, what is the sound of one hand clapping?
[/quote]

It is a tone similar to juvenile passive aggressive commentary.
[/quote]

Agreed. Folks like Northgolf, BPH7, Pinhigh27 only know how to insult people and take the opposing side. It's too bad they don't actually take their knowledge and help people instead of tear them down.

[northgolf]

[quote name='Tanner25' timestamp='1437007335' post='11956820']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1437006890' post='11956796']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1437005542' post='11956652']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1437005452' post='11956644']
[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1436935630' post='11951818']
The other thing I was thinking... someone quoted Dave Stockton and his thing about deliberately copying your signature as evidence of unconscious vs conscious performance. But when a child learn to write, the practice over and over how to make letters. The point is, until a motion is learned, it is conscious and only then sinks into 'unconscious.'

So my guess is if you're still learning a motion, it has to be conscious. With putting, a very simple motion, I mainly just see a spot I want to roll it over and have essentially no thinking about how to do this. But I have a clear guiding intention and this is conscious.

But Madgolfer, when you play, [b]there are a ton of things you're doing that you're not attending to consciously.[/b] But I agree. I am consciously focused on something when I play. There are some things I do where I am 'consciously unconscious' .. zen kinds of things. But even when I am 'in a zone' I am conscious of my intention and maybe some mechanical parts of a swing. It's just that my trust is sky high and that is the primary controlling perspective. It feels effortless, which describes trust rather than unconscious to me.
[/quote]

There are things like breathing that are physical survival actions that the body maintains in either a conscious or unconscious state, but actions that carry intent and purpose are conscious acts on their face. Trust me, there is no part of this discussion that I haven't fully considered.
[/quote]

But Sensei, what is the sound of one hand clapping?
[/quote]

It is a tone similar to juvenile passive aggressive commentary.
[/quote]

Agreed. Folks like Northgolf, BPH only know how to insult people and take the opposing side. It's too bad they don't actually take their knowledge and help people instead of tear them down.
[/quote]

There was no insult there, and if you understand the question I asked you know it is germane to this topic. The Chan and Zen branches of Buddhism have given millennia of thought to the topic of awareness of what is non-conscious to most, yet you dismiss it lightly.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1437007704' post='11956860']

There was no insult there, and if you understand the question I asked you know it is germane to this topic. The Chan and Zen branches of Buddhism have given millennia of thought to the topic of awareness of what is non-conscious to most, yet you dismiss it lightly.
[/quote]

We dismiss it because discussions of religion and related philosophy aren't allowed on WRX. That is why I have limited my comments to the academic realm of human learning, in which I do have an extensive background. The rest falls into the realm of subjectivity.

[northgolf]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1437008213' post='11956928']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1437007704' post='11956860']
There was no insult there, and if you understand the question I asked you know it is germane to this topic. The Chan and Zen branches of Buddhism have given millennia of thought to the topic of awareness of what is non-conscious to most, yet you dismiss it lightly.
[/quote]

We dismiss it because discussions of religion and related philosophy aren't allowed on WRX. That is why I have limited my comments to the academic realm of human learning, in which I do have an extensive background. The rest falls into the realm of subjectivity.
[/quote]

Religion, or philosophy? Academics certainly end up neck deep in philosophy all the time, especially when the topic is consciousness - that area is almost all subjective. This whole thread is based on a the now displaced concept of Freudian "subconscious" and I have yet to read a post of yours that obviously takes that mistake to task.

I'll be a bit more accepting of your academic understanding of human learning and motion when you can set it in the context of the physical realities our non-conscious has learned to react to without conscious thought.

For example, I can throw a ball to a friend with remarkable accuracy without any consideration of gravity and trajectory. I can kill a rabbit dead with a rock when it makes its first jink and it feels like a reflex to me. How do you translate the intent "kill the rabbit" to the reflexive "throw the rock this way NOW". There is a cross over from conscious intent to non-conscious control that is hidden by your statement "actions that carry intent and purpose are conscious acts on their face". My question was directed at your hint that is only "on their face". So, what is behind "the face"?

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1437009115' post='11957018']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1437008213' post='11956928']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1437007704' post='11956860']
There was no insult there, and if you understand the question I asked you know it is germane to this topic. The Chan and Zen branches of Buddhism have given millennia of thought to the topic of awareness of what is non-conscious to most, yet you dismiss it lightly.
[/quote]

We dismiss it because discussions of religion and related philosophy aren't allowed on WRX. That is why I have limited my comments to the academic realm of human learning, in which I do have an extensive background. The rest falls into the realm of subjectivity.
[/quote]

Religion, or philosophy? Academics certainly end up neck deep in philosophy all the time, especially when the topic is consciousness - that area is almost all subjective. This whole thread is based on a the now displaced concept of Freudian "subconscious" and I have yet to read a post of yours that obviously takes that mistake to task.

I'll be a bit more accepting of your academic understanding of human learning and motion when you can set it in the context of the physical realities our non-conscious has learned to react to without conscious thought.

For example, I can throw a ball to a friend with remarkable accuracy without any consideration of gravity and trajectory. I can kill a rabbit dead with a rock when it makes its first jink and it feels like a reflex to me. [b]How do you translate the intent "kill the rabbit" to the reflexive "throw the rock this way NOW".[/b] There is a cross over from conscious intent to non-conscious control that is hidden by your statement "actions that carry intent and purpose are conscious acts on their face". My question was directed at your hint that is only "on their face". So, what is behind "the face"?
[/quote]

Whether or not you care to accept what I have to say is of no consequence to me whatsoever. Regardless of whether you feel disadvantaged in this discussion, I won't accommodate your insistence that I prove my assertions to you beyond this one response that is more a courtesy than anything else. I will answer you this one time, despite your rather disgusting example.

Regarding the highlighted question, it is because (unless you are some kind of odd psychopath) killing a living thing is not a reflexive or instinctual act unless you are defending yourself, which in this example you are (disappointingly) not. It is a conscious decision, and using an object to do it is a target-based objective that carries awareness. That you imply it seems easy just likely means that you have spent some time practicing killing things using rocks.