Pace of Play - Member/Guest mens club?

[CDM]

So I played this weekend at Riverdale Dunes. Note: this is a public course. Posted in the Colorado section but wondering if I am wrong...

 

Find out there was a men's club member-guest that morning that had the early times, around 24-28 groups (tee times slots) so by 9:00am they were all on the course.

 

We tee'd off around 9:30 and it was moving well. (Considering the first 2 holes are short. If you can rip it a drive on hole two you can get right near the green going over the fescue...risk/reward...so backs up now and then there)

 

Started off great with birdie/birdie. (should have birded 3 as it was the easiest putt of all them) Drive to the 4th hole and we have 3 groups (including us) waiting....! Only 4 holes in...?? 35+ min wait to hit... went to crap after that off the tee. Wedge game was laser though so made me happy. We waited like 5 mins, maybe 10 each hole thanks to the delay, plus another 20 mins or so wait on hole 8 (par 3).

 

It was the MEMBERS playing stupid slow that caused it? I know its the men's club but this is a public course and a very popular one so it gets full. But as a member pace of play should be a concern, Golf is dying because of stupid 5+ hour rounds.

 

What personally p*ssed me off, the staff "catered" to the men's club and ignored the other players, tired to avoid the issue until it was way to late.

 

Staff said they "warned" them but honestly what kind of warning can you give groups that cause a 3+ hr front nine?

 

I voiced my opinion as others did. Noting they should have done something up front.

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy men's club's but you should not cater to them on a public course IMHO(reason I left the last one). if they are causing a significant delay it must be addressed. Golf has a standard etiquette, at a min they should of blocked out times knowing it would be slower.

 

We got no response more so apology. I know a few who quit at 9 and were only offered a rain check for 9 holes. They complained and were given 18 hole rain checks...but honestly they were going to only give 9 holes? Sure they played 9 holes but it took 3+ hours and the staff felt that was acceptable?

 

In the end it took us 5 Hrs - 46 mins we figured to play 18 out there....and we did play the back faster.

 

Am I wrong to think the men's club members should not be given special treatment??

[crazy8golfer]

You are not wrong, but the problem at most clubs is no one has the _alls to do anything about it. Clubs are afraid that they might loose a member or two, but if they did something, they might even gain some new member or two.

[rkristopheranderson]

A 5+ hour round is ridiculous, even for a member's tournament. I feel your pain.

That said, isn't the point of joining a Men's (or Women's) Club preferential treatment--like preferred tee times, tournaments, merchandise deals? Public courses do these things to attract regular play from the members. If I call/play at a course and they say, "yes you can get on at 9AM, but it is right after a tournament/outing" I'm likely to pass and find another course because I know it'll be extra slow.

[crich88848]

You are not wrong, but it is probably the norm for most clubs. I'm in a mens club and our outings are usually 4.5 to 5 hour rounds. It does get a little annoying at times when everyone thinks they are on tour and have to take 10 practice swings, have to think about every shot and have to eye up every putt for 5 minutes. I am relieved when I end up in one of the first tee times. Our tournament director is good about letting people know how slow they are playing and to speed it up a bit. Honestly, it doesn't do much though. People still play slow. We had one outing that went over 5 hour rounds this year. I was in the front of the pack so I didn't experience it, but our tournament director told us afterwards the course kindly asked us to never come back.

[Kuz013]

You are wrong, who in their right mind goes out following a Member/Guest tournament and expects a quick round? I'm not saying a 5.5 hour round is justifiable, but if you've ever played in a Member/guest you'd know that half the teams out their are drinking and having a good time and the other half are out there trying to win, thus both types of people are probably going to take a little extra time than a normal round. IMHO, as soon as you found out you were following a Member/Guest, you should've booked elsewhere, and you cant expect a place to cater more towards a regular player vs. someone who is a member, that's just ridiculous.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Chile Dip Master' timestamp='1436829375' post='11942180']


Am I wrong to think the men's club members should not be given special treatment??
[/quote]

You're 100% wrong. The reason there are "Men's Clubs", is to establish a core of players who will support the club and take some degree of pride in their course.
They pay for the privilege and entitled to some degree of special treatment. The fact that they had THEIR tournament on a day you wanted to play? Tough luck, join a club.

[CDM]

[quote name='Kuz013' timestamp='1436877011' post='11945062']
You are wrong, who in their right mind goes out following a Member/Guest tournament and expects a quick round? I'm not saying a 5.5 hour round is justifiable, but if you've ever played in a Member/guest you'd know that half the teams out their are drinking and having a good time and the other half are out there trying to win, thus both types of people are probably going to take a little extra time than a normal round. IMHO, as soon as you found out you were following a Member/Guest, you should've booked elsewhere, and you cant expect a place to cater more towards a regular player vs. someone who is a member, that's just ridiculous.
[/quote]

Okay I agree with following a M/G, that is stupid. Thing is I did call to see what the deal was. I noticed online they had a lot of single spaced out in morning so indicated something. Either golf is dying because no one can get 4 people together to play, or a ton of singles going out.

When asked they said nothing...! So booked it, otherwise I would have skipped it. I did ask in the pro shop why they do not list the M/G on the web page, no response.

I see the point on "Member" but again this a public course, not a private CC. So joining a men's club for $300-400 a year ([i]think what I paid a MC a for few years[/i]) you feel that "entitles" people to get extra consideration? I can see it on discounts and other items, but pace of play is part of that?

[i]Edit: MC is Murphy Creek I was part of the men's club for years because top players played of it...most have left for a lot of issues[/i]

[knock it close]

Members should be held to a higher standard imo.

[Kuz013]

[quote name='Chile Dip Master' timestamp='1436883046' post='11945736']
[quote name='Kuz013' timestamp='1436877011' post='11945062']
You are wrong, who in their right mind goes out following a Member/Guest tournament and expects a quick round? I'm not saying a 5.5 hour round is justifiable, but if you've ever played in a Member/guest you'd know that half the teams out their are drinking and having a good time and the other half are out there trying to win, thus both types of people are probably going to take a little extra time than a normal round. IMHO, as soon as you found out you were following a Member/Guest, you should've booked elsewhere, and you cant expect a place to cater more towards a regular player vs. someone who is a member, that's just ridiculous.
[/quote]

Okay I agree with following a M/G, that is stupid. Thing is I did call to see what the deal was. I noticed online they had a lot of single spaced out in morning so indicated something. Either golf is dying because no one can get 4 people together to play, or a ton of singles going out.

When asked they said nothing...! So booked it, otherwise I would have skipped it. I did ask in the pro shop why they do not list the M/G on the web page, no response.

I see the point on "Member" but again this a public course, not a private CC. So joining a men's club for $300-400 a year ([i]think what I paid a MC a for few years[/i]) you feel that "entitles" people to get extra consideration? I can see it on discounts and other items, but pace of play is part of that?

[i]Edit: MC is Murphy Creek I was part of the men's club for years because top players played of it...most have left for a lot of issues[/i]
[/quote]

If the club didnt inform you there was an MG going on, then thats sh*tty of them, but even if I didnt find out until I got there, I probably still wouldve gone elsewhere. And it may be a Public course, but they will always side with Members as opposed to paying public, thats just the way it is and should be, or else what would be the point of being a member; and you keep going back to pace of play, its a MG tournament, do you expect the club to force them to skip holes to make up time? not going to happen, like I said, you knowingly (even if you didnt find out until you got there) walked into that situation. Its on you

[CDM]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1436877186' post='11945072']
[quote name='Chile Dip Master' timestamp='1436829375' post='11942180']
Am I wrong to think the men's club members should not be given special treatment??
[/quote]

You're 100% wrong. The reason there are "Men's Clubs", is to establish a core of players who will support the club and take some degree of pride in their course.
They pay for the privilege and entitled to some degree of special treatment. The fact that they had THEIR tournament on a day you wanted to play? Tough luck, join a club.
[/quote]

Hahaha not even sure how to reply to that? So you think I am 100% wrong.... So because people pay $300/400 a year to join a men's club which really is about $50 less because to just carry a GHIN you will pay that either way, they are "entitled" to how they act on the course?? We showing our true colors here my friend??

I will completey agree a lot of people do it to take pride in their course. I did because I liked playing against the best. Question though what type of "pride" are you showing by causing 5.5+ hour rounds? What does that show the other members what you think?

I WAS part of a men's club and left for the "entitled" reason you point out. The amount of cost is soooo limited to think that for 300/400 a year you can ignore others who play the game, well to me that ignorance plan and simple. In a sport we on this forum love, watching it die slow death because of cost, and TIME commitment, your comments make me think you are one of a few I already know that hopes people go away from the sport so you don't have to deal with others.

[i]Edit: Played out of 3 different clubs but ended it at Murphy Creek. I played out of there for few years because locally it has some the best players skill wise. It is a VERY hard track, long ( can be pushed to 7800/7900 if needed). US MID AM was played out there 5-6 years ago. Played around 7700/7800 par 70... ate a lot of the top players.[/i]

[CDM]

[quote name='Kuz013' timestamp='1436884291' post='11945908']
[quote name='Chile Dip Master' timestamp='1436883046' post='11945736']
[quote name='Kuz013' timestamp='1436877011' post='11945062']
You are wrong, who in their right mind goes out following a Member/Guest tournament and expects a quick round? I'm not saying a 5.5 hour round is justifiable, but if you've ever played in a Member/guest you'd know that half the teams out their are drinking and having a good time and the other half are out there trying to win, thus both types of people are probably going to take a little extra time than a normal round. IMHO, as soon as you found out you were following a Member/Guest, you should've booked elsewhere, and you cant expect a place to cater more towards a regular player vs. someone who is a member, that's just ridiculous.
[/quote]

Okay I agree with following a M/G, that is stupid. Thing is I did call to see what the deal was. I noticed online they had a lot of single spaced out in morning so indicated something. Either golf is dying because no one can get 4 people together to play, or a ton of singles going out.

When asked they said nothing...! So booked it, otherwise I would have skipped it. I did ask in the pro shop why they do not list the M/G on the web page, no response.

I see the point on "Member" but again this a public course, not a private CC. So joining a men's club for $300-400 a year ([i]think what I paid a MC a for few years[/i]) you feel that "entitles" people to get extra consideration? I can see it on discounts and other items, but pace of play is part of that?

[i]Edit: MC is Murphy Creek I was part of the men's club for years because top players played of it...most have left for a lot of issues[/i]
[/quote]

If the club didnt inform you there was an MG going on, then thats sh*tty of them, but even if I didnt find out until I got there, I probably still wouldve gone elsewhere. And it may be a Public course, but they will always side with Members as opposed to paying public, thats just the way it is and should be, or else what would be the point of being a member; and you keep going back to pace of play, its a MG tournament, do you expect the club to force them to skip holes to make up time? not going to happen, like I said, you knowingly (even if you didnt find out until you got there) walked into that situation. Its on you
[/quote]

Kuz013 I agree with you, we should have left. Parking lot was full but this place has 2 18 hole courses so we figured it was normal. Not sign in the pro shop indicating any M/G plus calling ahead and being told nothing figured we were good. We would have left and played Green Valley honestly if we knew.

I understand it all and comments having been part of a couple of clubs, Meadow Hills, Aurora Hills (both because friend) and then Murphy Creek again because of a good friend that was Stroke/Match play champion for a number of years (granted + Hdcp so he earned it). I liked MC but there is issues on other aspects so decide last year to not join again. One thing though, no real sandbaggers....ie: reason I left MH and AH most over inflated HDCP I have ever seen in a men's club.

I don't expect the management to do anything honestly, I expect the members to though. To be courteous and follow some the basic rules ([i]though not written[/i]). I have played in many M/G at private clubs in Denver metro ([i]Cherry Hills, Cherry Creek, Bear Creek, National, Denver CC, etc[/i]) because of clients. I agree it slows down a TON...normally it is not because a team wants to win, because of the money in the CALCUTTA is $$$$ for the win...LOL

The sad part is a lot of my clients know I can join from a fiscal aspect, heck they know what they pay me HAHAHA, but not matter how much money I make I would never join those places. First and foremost have to deal with clients more so than on a work basis and two I don't feel I should be entitled to anything just because I pay. Yes the ability to play a great course, easier tee times, etc...but it does not allow me to ignore others just because.

I was raised to be conscious of others... I know it p*sses me of when I see 4 people drive two carts to one ball and wait for each person to hit....so I would NOT do that to others. Maybe I am different.

[CDM]

[quote name='knock it close' timestamp='1436884167' post='11945888']
Members should be held to a higher standard imo.
[/quote]

That really is my point, lead by example.... guess others don't see it that way.

[masamitsu]

I'm part of a MGA. What they do is time-stamp the scorecards after the last person in the group has teed off. They then stamp them again on 18. Over the time limit incurs a penalty - Plain and simple.

[CDM]

Interesting... which MGA does that.

I can tell you MC should do that as part of the reason a lot of the people I played with out there left was for that reason. It took way to long.

I don't blame the members on that, more course set up. MC has issues with the course being really long making it hard. They had all players on the same tees (blue) which at 6900/7000 and typically back tee locations made it very hard for the higher hdcp's. Caused a lot of delays. Wind picks up out there and it will eat people alive LOL.

[Ace Underhill]

Member/guest this past weekend. Wednesday practice round- 4 hours, Thursday 1-net best ball, 5 hours, Friday modified scramble- 5 hours. Saturday stroke play, 6 hours. It was a grind to say the least.

[gr00vetech]

to the OP...you hire a restaurant to cater a private event but they are open to the public also in the other room. They have an unusually busy day from the public crowd and show up with half your food that you paid for. It's ok though because even though you are paying for the service you are ok with half your order because nobody else was inconvenienced.

Why should anyone get 18 hole rain checks? Didn't they already play 9 holes? Do you ask for the afternoon rate at your 11:52 tee time also?

Now if you asked, yes the course should have disclosed the event but i would not expect them to just give that info out and sacrifice dollars on missed tee times.

If you feel they are making mistakes, don't reward them with any more of your dollars. It's that simple.

[CDM]

[quote name='gr00vetech' timestamp='1436931477' post='11951564']
to the OP...you hire a restaurant to cater a private event but they are open to the public also in the other room. They have an unusually busy day from the public crowd and show up with half your food that you paid for. It's ok though because even though you are paying for the service you are ok with half your order because nobody else was inconvenienced.

Why should anyone get 18 hole rain checks? Didn't they already play 9 holes? Do you ask for the afternoon rate at your 11:52 tee time also?

Now if you asked, yes the course should have disclosed the event but i would not expect them to just give that info out and sacrifice dollars on missed tee times.

If you feel they are making mistakes, don't reward them with any more of your dollars. It's that simple.
[/quote]

I am a little lost on the catering thing? I have scheduled many catered event's for my company if the restaurant only provided half the food, hell no I am not paying full price, your paying mainly for food and drinks, yes also for the private room aspect, service, etc. A business has to make money I get that owning one, but I also don't tell my clients we did all the work and only did 2/3's of it. Good way to get fired and sued LOL

In golf we pay for the amenity (course) right? A part of that is the service that is expected of a better venue. From a service stand point, no matter what course, once your on the course staff has no control over your round other then... wait for it.....pace of play. ([i]Unless you drink a lot on the course and the cart lady is not around) [/i]

If people believe that being a member at a course allows to them to play slower... so be it, I disagree.

The 18 hole rain check I can see the point since they already played 9 holes. Yes "technically" they did play 9 holes, sure it took 3+ hours... it comes down to "customer service" IMHO.

I know there are people who will see it for face value and others will see it as something that is "okay" because of being a men's club member... All I know, it ruined a lot of peoples rounds on an excellent track. I would still tell people to play it, just check the schedule before booking =)

I still played decent. 79 with 5 DBL's and a couple of bogey's. Having 5 birdies saved my butt. For the record all DBL's were from crap tee balls......[i]Ie: sitting for 10 - 30+ mins per hole does not help one keep loose/rhythm. [/i]

[xxio]

Any non-serious (serious meaning club championships, etc.) tournaments with a large field should be played at a format different from full stroke play. Our member-guest is modified stableford at 3/4 handicap (3/4 is to eliminate the advantage of having a high handicap).

A guy putting for a NET double bogey will probably not be winning and should be not winning anyway.

[DD4442]

Get out of the cart. Take a few clubs (including the one for your next shot(s)), your bottle of water/beer and a range finder. Walk ahead to your ball. Pay attention, hit. Walk toward the hole again. It's not the Bataan Death March. It's just a couple hundred yards, at most.

[CDM]

[quote name='DD4442' timestamp='1436970036' post='11953250']
Get out of the cart. Take a few clubs (including the one for your next shot(s)), your bottle of water/beer and a range finder. Walk ahead to your ball. Pay attention, hit. Walk toward the hole again. It's not the Bataan Death March. It's just a couple hundred yards, at most.
[/quote]

+1

I always get out of the cart (if[i] using one[/i]) and take the clubs I need (2-3 depending) including putter if it is an approach shot. Since I run Pw/50/54/58 and it covers me from 145 down take my range finder to dial it in the right club. I always try to keep pace of play but more so, because it helps me. Getting out of the cart allows me to focus for the shot more so and think about it with no one around. ie: while the others hit.

Edit:

I should note, I do understand if you have a chance to win people do try to help each other so really slows it down.

A two man -two day "sand bagger invitational" ([i]as I call it[/i]) is a NO HDCP event. Best ball so you just try the best you can take the lowest score from you or partner...well I can tell you on Saturday everyone is playing 4.5 hr rounds or so over. Solid pace but also calculating "do I make this put or not". The last 2-3 holes just BOG down hahaha. Around 7-8 flights and if you shot 7 shots or better the next day your are moved up a flight which means you might start 4-5 shots down.

Amazing how slow Sunday back 9 gets because everyone is calc'n their position coming in. We have won a few times in the top couple of flights but we just go and shot the best we can and go for it. Find to be easier. The lower flights...WOW they play for 5.5+ hours trying to get the score to work if they "sandbag" the day before right LOL...

[Bonneville85308]

It's not a public course but at my club the member-guest 9 hole matches (4 players, 2 men per team) routinely take 2.5 hours each. The usual suspects: people looking at putts from 5 angles, not giving up on a lost ball until a 10 minute search, "honors", free beer everywhere, 18 handicappers trying to figure out if it's 131 yards to the hole or really 132 as if it makes a difference, etc.


I refuse to play in it.

[CDM]

[quote name='cherokee8215' timestamp='1437058209' post='11959642']
It's not a public course but at my club the member-guest 9 hole matches (4 players, 2 men per team) routinely take 2.5 hours each. The usual suspects: people looking at putts from 5 angles, not giving up on a lost ball until a 10 minute search, "honors", free beer everywhere, [b]18 handicappers trying to figure out if it's 131 yards to the hole or really 132 as if it makes a difference, [/b]etc.


I refuse to play in it.
[/quote]