Clarification on "ball moving"

[roundersmitty]

This is a question I think I know the answer to, but just need clarification. Player addresses his ball in fairway and grounds his club with a bit of force 1-2" behind the ball. By doing so, the sod on which the ball is positioned moves up and down the slightest bit (we are talking 1/32nd to 1/16th of an inch, just enough to distinguish it "moved"). The ball after doing this still lies in the exact same position as it started. Penalty?

[wadesworld]

As long as the ball returned to its original position and did not roll, no penalty.

[roundersmitty]

[quote name='wadesworld' timestamp='1440511772' post='12204936']
As long as the ball returned to its original position and did not roll, no penalty.
[/quote]

This is what I thought. But...lets add something new to the equation...say there was a small hump on the fairway 1-2" behind the ball and grounding the club hard behind the ball improves the clubs path to the ball...then a penalty is given?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='roundersmitty' timestamp='1440514239' post='12205286']
[quote name='wadesworld' timestamp='1440511772' post='12204936']
As long as the ball returned to its original position and did not roll, no penalty.
[/quote]

This is what I thought. But...lets add something new to the equation...say there was a small hump on the fairway 1-2" behind the ball and grounding the club hard behind the ball improves the clubs path to the ball...then a penalty is given?
[/quote]

13-2 says you get a 2sp because in your example the club was grounded "hard." There is, however, an exception . . .[color=#474B55]in grounding the club lightly when [/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Addressing-The-Ball"]addressing the ball[/url][/i][color=#474B55],[/color]

[Cancun]

From the Definitions:

[b]Move or Moved[/b]

A ball is deemed to have "[i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Move-Or-Moved"]moved[/url][/i]" if it leaves its position and [color=#ff0000]comes to rest in any other place[/color].



Rule 13-2:
[b] 13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play[/b]


A player must not improve or allow to be improved:[list]
[*][color=#ff0000]the position or lie of his ball,[/color]
[*][color=#ff0000]the area of his intended [/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Stance"][color=#ff0000]stance[/color][/url][/i][color=#ff0000] or swing,[/color]
[*]his [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Line-Of-Play"]line of play[/url][/i] or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Hole"]hole[/url][/i], or
[*]the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
[/list]

by any of the following actions:[list]
[*][color=#ff0000]pressing a club on the ground,[/color]
[*]moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Obstructions"]obstructions[/url][/i] and objects defining [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i]),
[*]creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
[*]removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
[*]removing dew, frost or water.
[/list]

However, [color=#ff0000]the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:[/color][list]
[*]in grounding the club [color=#ff0000]lightly[/color] when [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Addressing-The-Ball"]addressing the ball[/url][/i],
[*]in fairly taking his [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Stance"]stance[/url][/i],
[*]in making a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] or the backward movement of his club for a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] and the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] is made,
[*]in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Teeing-Ground"]teeing ground[/url][/i] or in removing dew, frost or water from the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Teeing-Ground"]teeing ground[/url][/i], or
[*]on the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Putting-Green"]putting green[/url][/i] in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-16,16-1"]16-1[/url]).
[/list]

[b]Exception:[/b] Ball in [i][url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-14253,Hazards"]hazard[/url][/i] - see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#%21rule-13,13-4"]13-4[/url].


I used [color=#ff0000]red [/color]to highlight the relevant parts.

In other words: If the ball moves (according with the definition above), there is a 1 stroke penalty and it must be replaced. Failing to do this causes a 2 stroke penalty (Rule 18-2a)

If you press your club (hard, as you said) and that changes the lie or the area of intended swing, that's a breach of Rule 13-2 (2 strokes penalty). You're allowed to ground your club, not to press anything.

I hope that helps you

[Sawgrass]

With apologies to Roundersmitty whose question I believe has been thoroughly answered, a related question has popped up in my mind, and I'm curious as to what others think.

D 18/3 tells us that a ball in a tree that moves in relation to the ground due to a player's weight being applied to the tree, but does not move in relation to the tree branch itself that's holding it, has not officially moved. I've presumed that this same principle applies when a ball is slightly suspended in the air by some grass, and the player grounds his club in the grass, and the ball stays still in relation to the "web" of grass it's in, but has slightly and permanently moved in relationship to the ground under it.

That sounds like a perfectly parallel situation which should have a parallel (penalty-free) ruling, but I've been a touch surprised that there doesn't seem to be a Decision which specifically address this, to me more common, situation.

Thoughts?


[b] 18/3[/b]

[color=#000000] [/color]
[b] Ball in Fork of Tree Moves in Relation to Ground But Not in Relation to Fork[/b]
[color=#474B55]

[color=#D5213A][b]Q.[/b][/color]A ball rests in the fork of a branch of a tree. The player climbs the tree to play his next stroke. The branch bends under his weight. Although the ball has moved relative to the ground, it has not moved relative to the fork. Is the ball deemed to have moved?[/color][color=#474B55]

[color=#D5213A][b]A.[/b][/color]The ball is deemed not to have moved since it did not move in relation to the fork of the tree in which it was lodged.[/color]

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1440517497' post='12205624']
With apologies to Roundersmitty whose question I believe has been thoroughly answered, a related question has popped up in my mind, and I'm curious as to what others think.

D 18/3 tells us that a ball in a tree that moves in relation to the ground due to a player's weight being applied to the tree, but does not move in relation to the tree branch itself that's holding it, has not officially moved. I've presumed that this same principle applies when a ball is slightly suspended in the air by some grass, and the player grounds his club in the grass, and the ball stays still in relation to the "web" of grass it's in, but has slightly and permanently moved in relationship to the ground under it.

That sounds like a perfectly parallel situation which should have a parallel (penalty-free) ruling, but I've been a touch surprised that there doesn't seem to be a Decision which specifically address this, to me more common, situation.

Thoughts?


[b] 18/3[/b]


[b] Ball in Fork of Tree Moves in Relation to Ground But Not in Relation to Fork[/b]


[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]Q.[/b][/color]A ball rests in the fork of a branch of a tree. The player climbs the tree to play his next stroke. The branch bends under his weight. Although the ball has moved relative to the ground, it has not moved relative to the fork. Is the ball deemed to have moved?[/color]

[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]A.[/b][/color]The ball is deemed not to have moved since it did not move in relation to the fork of the tree in which it was lodged.[/color]
[/quote]

It is all about relation to where the ball is lying on. Take a fairway with water pockets or gas pockets. The ball is lying on the grass but when you step on the pocket the layer of grass and soil with the ball lying on it is waving up and down. From the Rules point of view that ball has not moved as it has not changed its position relative to the spot it is lying on. Same thing with the tree branch.

I tought this was the issue in the OP :'..the [b]sod[/b] on which the ball is positioned [b]moves up and down[/b] the slightest bit..'

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1440518718' post='12205766']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1440517497' post='12205624']
With apologies to Roundersmitty whose question I believe has been thoroughly answered, a related question has popped up in my mind, and I'm curious as to what others think.

D 18/3 tells us that a ball in a tree that moves in relation to the ground due to a player's weight being applied to the tree, but does not move in relation to the tree branch itself that's holding it, has not officially moved. I've presumed that this same principle applies when a ball is slightly suspended in the air by some grass, and the player grounds his club in the grass, and the ball stays still in relation to the "web" of grass it's in, but has slightly and permanently moved in relationship to the ground under it.

That sounds like a perfectly parallel situation which should have a parallel (penalty-free) ruling, but I've been a touch surprised that there doesn't seem to be a Decision which specifically address this, to me more common, situation.

Thoughts?


[b] 18/3[/b]


[b] Ball in Fork of Tree Moves in Relation to Ground But Not in Relation to Fork[/b]


[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]Q.[/b][/color]A ball rests in the fork of a branch of a tree. The player climbs the tree to play his next stroke. The branch bends under his weight. Although the ball has moved relative to the ground, it has not moved relative to the fork. Is the ball deemed to have moved?[/color]

[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]A.[/b][/color]The ball is deemed not to have moved since it did not move in relation to the fork of the tree in which it was lodged.[/color]
[/quote]

It is all about relation to where the ball is lying on. Take a fairway with water pockets or gas pockets. The ball is lying on the grass but when you step on the pocket the layer of grass and soil with the ball lying on it is waving up and down. From the Rules point of view that ball has not moved as it has not changed its position relative to the spot it is lying on. Same thing with the tree branch.

I tought this was the issue in the OP :'..the [b]sod[/b] on which the ball is positioned [b]moves up and down[/b] the slightest bit..'
[/quote]

Yes, I do think that's what he meant. But in his example the ball returned to its original location in relationship to everything. In my diversion here, the ball stays fixed in its same position in the web of grass, but the web of grass itself has moved and stays in its slightly new position (much like the Decision's tree branch stays moved with the player's weight upon it).

[Stuart_G]

Interesting question but grass is just not that strong individually. The ball has to be supported by multiple independent blades. There might be a few blades that have maintained the same relationship with the ball but I would strongly question the actual possibility of the ball not moving with respect to [u]all[/u] the parts supporting it in that case.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1440519122' post='12205808']
Interesting question but grass is just not that strong individually. The ball has to be supported by multiple independent blades. There might be a few blades that have maintained the same relationship with the ball but I would strongly question the actual possibility of the ball not moving with respect to [u]all[/u] the parts supporting it in that case.
[/quote]

Yikes. Then we have the question as to whether the ball moved in relation to "most" of the web of grass, or if instead a few blades of grass were what actually "moved" and not the ball at all since it stayed with the majority of the web.

??? I'm not getting the clarity I craved!

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1440519436' post='12205858']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1440519122' post='12205808']
Interesting question but grass is just not that strong individually. The ball has to be supported by multiple independent blades. There might be a few blades that have maintained the same relationship with the ball but I would strongly question the actual possibility of the ball not moving with respect to [u]all[/u] the parts supporting it in that case.
[/quote]

Yikes. Then we have the question as to whether the ball moved in relation to "most" of the web of grass, or if instead a few blades of grass were what actually "moved" and not the ball at all since it stayed with the majority of the web.

??? I'm not getting the clarity I craved!
[/quote]

I would think dec 18/1 would be sufficient. A tree is one thing but I doubt very much whether the RB would care much for having to create a distinction (and a need to determine the difference in a ruling) between the ball 'slipping' down in the grass vs the grass just being pushed down more or shifting and the ball going with it.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1440520911' post='12205980']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1440519436' post='12205858']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1440519122' post='12205808']
Interesting question but grass is just not that strong individually. The ball has to be supported by multiple independent blades. There might be a few blades that have maintained the same relationship with the ball but I would strongly question the actual possibility of the ball not moving with respect to [u]all[/u] the parts supporting it in that case.
[/quote]

Yikes. Then we have the question as to whether the ball moved in relation to "most" of the web of grass, or if instead a few blades of grass were what actually "moved" and not the ball at all since it stayed with the majority of the web.

??? I'm not getting the clarity I craved!
[/quote]

I would think dec 18/1 would be sufficient. A tree is one thing but I doubt very much whether the RB would care much for having to create a distinction (and a need to determine the difference in a ruling) between the ball 'slipping' down in the grass vs the grass just being pushed down more or shifting and the ball going with it.
[/quote]

You certainly might be right, but I keep thinking that it's also possible that there's a meaningful difference between a ball sliding down (the blades of some grass) and the blades of grass swaying to the side. Supporting this theory (of which I remain unsure) is my observation that there's not much difference between a branch swaying downward/side-ward and thick grass (reeds?) doing the same thing.

I remain staunchly confused.

[Cancun]

I believe the situation in 18/1 is clearly different from the one suggested by Sawgrass. If the ball changes its position in relation to the grass it definitely moved (even if it just went slightly deeper into the grass without rolling.

On the other hand, D 18/3 is a clearly different situation where the whole lie of the ball moves. For me, the branch that moves and the “muddy grass area” moving are just the same. If the ball doesn’t move (at all) in relation to where it lies, the ball hasn’t moved, even if the branch or the piece of ground/grass where it lies moved when the player took his stance.

I’ve found greenkeeper’s equipment tracks in muddy areas. You can’t see any water, but the ground moves under your feet and there is no casual water (it’s basically mud under the grass). I wouldn’t charge a player with a penalty for taking his stance there, even if the whole lie moves under the weight of the player legally taking his stance. Now, if the ball moves in relation to the ground, that is a breach.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Cancun' timestamp='1440527381' post='12206624']
I believe the situation in 18/1 is clearly different from the one suggested by Sawgrass. If the ball changes its position in relation to the grass it definitely moved (even if it just went slightly deeper into the grass without rolling).

[/quote]

I agree. A ball supported by the ground (or a tree branch) is very different from a ball supported by leaves of grass.

[Newby]

I think there is a difference between blades of grass which support the ball above ground and the sort of condition Mr Bean describes as a 'sod' moving up and down. ie where the ball is on the ground (as conventionally understood) but the roots under the turf have separated from the soil below and the grassy part (turf/sod) is 'floating' on a layer of water (or sometimes gas). Standing on such an area feels rather like a water bed.

The latter is definitely analogous to the tree decision.
I have some difficulty in picturing a ball suspended in blades of wafting grass not moving relative the the blades.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1440528984' post='12206798']
[quote name='Cancun' timestamp='1440527381' post='12206624']
I believe the situation in 18/1 is clearly different from the one suggested by Sawgrass. If the ball changes its position in relation to the grass it definitely moved (even if it just went slightly deeper into the grass without rolling).

[/quote]

I agree. A ball supported by the ground (or a tree branch) is very different from a ball supported by leaves of grass.
[/quote]

I agree with that as well, but Sawgrass' question was about a ball supported by leaves of grass.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1440578786' post='12210442']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1440528984' post='12206798']
[quote name='Cancun' timestamp='1440527381' post='12206624']
I believe the situation in 18/1 is clearly different from the one suggested by Sawgrass. If the ball changes its position in relation to the grass it definitely moved (even if it just went slightly deeper into the grass without rolling).

[/quote]

I agree. A ball supported by the ground (or a tree branch) is very different from a ball supported by leaves of grass.
[/quote]

I agree with that as well, but Sawgrass' question was about a ball supported by leaves of grass.
[/quote]

Indeed it was, and it is my firm opinion that a ball has moved if it is supported by leaves of grass and has moved either vertically or horizontally relative to the ground.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1440580895' post='12210484']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1440578786' post='12210442']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1440528984' post='12206798']
[quote name='Cancun' timestamp='1440527381' post='12206624']
I believe the situation in 18/1 is clearly different from the one suggested by Sawgrass. If the ball changes its position in relation to the grass it definitely moved (even if it just went slightly deeper into the grass without rolling).

[/quote]

I agree. A ball supported by the ground (or a tree branch) is very different from a ball supported by leaves of grass.
[/quote]

I agree with that as well, but Sawgrass' question was about a ball supported by leaves of grass.
[/quote]

Indeed it was, and it is my firm opinion that a ball has moved if it is supported by leaves of grass and has moved either vertically or horizontally relative to the ground.
[/quote]

So, in your opinion it's the type of plant life that leads to the ruling.

Which forces me to wonder where the cut-off lies. Heavy branches? Thin branches? Saplings? Bushes? Reeds? Crab grass?

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1440587820' post='12210614']
So, in your opinion it's the type of plant life that leads to the ruling.

Which forces me to wonder where the cut-off lies. Heavy branches? Thin branches? Saplings? Bushes? Reeds? Crab grass?
[/quote]

First you need to picture yourself when a ball has moved. After that you will see that the type of plant is not really the determining factor but how the ball behaves once in or on that plant.

Once a ball is no longer exactly on the same spot in relation to the plant and has left it permanently (i.e. is not oscillating), it has moved. For me it is difficult to envisage a situation where a ball could be lying on leaves of grass in such a way that it permanently changes its position relative to the ground but not relative to any of the leaves of grass.

[Newby]

Ditto.

[Sawgrass]

You guys need tougher grass!

[Newby]

You mean play on a field of straw?