I have a question for everybody

[Sean2]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1440621460' post='12213870']
Honeslty. I'm not sure how one could generalize.

[color=#ff0000][b]I'm not instructor but I'd need to know what the students goals and expectations are first. Then the lesson plan would have to tailor those wants/needs/desires.[/b][/color]

Ex: Wants to go pro - Could be a swing overhaul, start from scratch kinda thing... Would be alot of #1 & #2 , heavy on #3 No rush to #4
Jsut wants to drop a few strokes - Could be light on #1, #2 and #4 and heavy on #3
Wants to gain more competitve focus - Heavy on #4 , light on the others.

Etc...

Plus every student is different. Some pick up mechanicals fast and you can blast right through that stuff and some struggle on the rest....some just the opposite.

I'm not sure the is one 'answer' to this question.
[/quote]

This is what I was going to add. I have never had an instructor ask this. Maybe someone simply wants to find more fairways, while another may want to win his state amateur. A huge difference than in how each lesson would be structured.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1440632474' post='12214772']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1440631695' post='12214718']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1440630858' post='12214642']
Disagree with you there, AirJammer. If students got what they thought they wanted it would be bad for the students and the instructors.
[/quote]

That hasn't been my experience. While true some of the time, it is hardly generalizable.
[/quote]

[b]If instructors listen to a student in terms of what they think needs to be fixed, and how they think they should fix it, the instructor would be a 15 handicap at teaching golf.[/b] I believe in listening to the students concerns, and what they think, but ultimately the instructor makes the decision on what's best. Students are paying for expert advice on how to get better. Obviously what the students have been doing isn't working. ESPECIALLY beginners or higher handicaps.
[/quote]

That is certainly a cozy anecdote, but in reality there is nothing that proves it to be true all the time. If we are talking nuts and bolts mechanics, then I would mostly agree for the average golfer. If we are talking about areas or sequencing, I think that piece is debatable.

[David C]

1. 2%
2. 2%
3. 96%

For me. Once I 'get it' I want to know what to do and a revision video/recap for what to do in between lessons. Some days I enjoy and do need a bit more breakdown. I definitely think you can overkill it. Personally I like a 3 hour lesson, an on course I think you only need a few holes, I like the odd break, mix it up, practice, come back and supervised. I think the aim isn't to 'get it' in the lesson, it's to go away with what to do, how to practice, and have some supervised learning where a lot of good work is done.

It's definitely about expectations. I think it largely depends on the subject. When I'm working with a group in my line of work I've found Honey and Mumford learning styles very helpful and normally have several ways of interacting to get one point across. Also to understand my style. It's not ideal though groups and prefer to do 1:1. With the best will in the world when I've been in a group if you mentally 'check out' you've checked out. There will always be someone that you just struggle to meet their expectations and vice versa IMO.

Some people and some very talented people do view coaching as hands on, full-stop. Eg my girlfriend's BSc in sports science is from our top sports uni where national centres for many of our sports are on campus and contemporaries were Olympians and international athletes. She said most were very 'coachable', but had very, very little tolerance for analysis. Obviously they were effective learners. She's exactly like that herself. I don't think it is at all unusual. She also referred to modern thinking about the ineffectiveness of drills, video replay being a hindrance to learning, many of the things that are pretty ubiquitous in golf teaching. If you find yourself coaching anyone like that I can well imagine that you're going to put a whole load of effort in and they'll feel short-changed. She took a lesson herself a while back on a groupon, her first and probably her last. The pro was fine, she was happy, and she practised the lesson after - lots of people I know expect a lesson to be a 'cure'. But she felt his video camera part of the lesson was a gimmick and he was starting to stray into areas eg biomechanics in quite a assured way when he wasn't an academic. Probably the average punter wouldn't pick up on that I guess but she felt it was strange and I'd tend to agree.

Golf in my mind is perhaps a bit different in terms of coaching technique at how much analysis is possible, especially given the array of teaching devices available and in comparison to other sports where you're not stationary. I do think the student should respect the teacher and that respect should extend to 'maybe I don't know everything about being coached' and 'maybe this guy is an expert in his field and for this particular sport, this is how you get coached'. After all you're paying someone so in addition to it being the best way to learn, you're also a fool not to let them guide the process!

Just sounds to me like you did your best and it didn't work out with that individual tbh.

[TPG1971]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1440616245' post='12213286']
In an hour lesson, number one takes almost no time. Quite literally as little as a minute or two and not more than 5.

Number two, as long as it takes for an understanding to develop between myself and the client.

Number three is the rest of the time.

1. 10% or less
2. Hopefully not more than 20-30%
3. Hopefully 50% or more.


4. In my perfect world, at least every other lesson would be on course. Since that's not feasible....as often as possible. Those who have attended my 3 day clinics, most agree on course is the best of the 3 days.
[/quote]

How much time before the lesson to apply hair product?

[LaggingBehind]

If I were to get the lesson I would like the most time spent on #4 (50+%). I'm way underachieving with my current skill set because of poor course management. When I notice a bad tendency surfacing I'd like to know how to fix it mid-round without become "technically minded". I find maintaining a loose focus that allows myself to play freely difficult. I quickly become fixated on technical issues when things go wrong, even if I think i'm not getting fixated.
5% on #1, I'm know most of my faults and when they occur but I could certainly learn more although it shouldn't take long.
35% on #2, I'd like to know ways to maintain some of the fundamentals I have and how to best practice them. Ideas for managing and improving my pre-shot routine would be nice.
10% on #3, I'm not so interested in learning more technique, I need to learn to apply it consistently.

[Schnee]

[quote name='TPG1971' timestamp='1440633910' post='12214926']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1440616245' post='12213286']
In an hour lesson, number one takes almost no time. Quite literally as little as a minute or two and not more than 5.

Number two, as long as it takes for an understanding to develop between myself and the client.

Number three is the rest of the time.

1. 10% or less
2. Hopefully not more than 20-30%
3. Hopefully 50% or more.


4. In my perfect world, at least every other lesson would be on course. Since that's not feasible....as often as possible. Those who have attended my 3 day clinics, most agree on course is the best of the 3 days.
[/quote]

How much time before the lesson to apply hair product?


[/quote]


BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURN

[thekru]

I'll give a little review of my 3 days with Dan (Feb 3-5, 2015)

Day One: Dan shows up 15 minutes late and the weather is 32 degrees. We basically just talked for the first 45 minutes and I hardly hit any balls. The conversation was not even about golf for the most part, just a bunch of bullshitting. I finally get to hit a few balls and Dan is quick to identify my fault. Great! I continue to hit balls over the next three hours and Dan hardly has anything to say about my swing. If I blocked it I turned my body too quick and if I hooked it my body stalled. Not really any other swing feels or drills for the rest of the day to help the problem. Dan talked so freakin much (mostly about cars) I had a hard time focusing on what I wanted I was trying to accomplish. Zero time on the golf course and zero short game.

Day Two: Hit balls for two hours, hardly any instruction once again. More talk about cars and all of his great junior students. We go out to play the next two hours and during that two hours maybe 15 minutes of instruction.

Day Three: One hour of hitting balls three hours on the golf course. The last 30 minutes were him showing me how great the 17th hole is.

12 hours with Dan and the only thing I know is that I don't extend my right arm. I was dropping my right shoulder and never getting any extension. He gave me two drills. 1) Put my left foot against the wall and swing the butt of club into it, while holding my right shoulder back.
2) Put the ball way forward (like in front of my left foot) and hit balls, this should help you extend into impact.

We spent no more that 30 minutes, out of 12 hours I paid for, on the short game, and one of the things I told him I needed to improve was my sand play.

There are two reasons I am writing this post, and I have been thinking about a while, but up until now have been biting my tongue:
1) I just want everyone to be wary of spending the amount of $$ that I did. For the record I have seen zero return in my golf game.
2) Dan, I know, you know what you are talking about. But maybe you need to sit down and have a better plan of what you are going to do in your golf schools. There have obviously been some unhappy customers. Listening to your students is not a bad idea. There is a big difference between a 30 handicap telling you what is going on and a 1 HDCP. Dan is a great guy, very knowledgeable, good to talk with, but in all honesty I cannot at this time recommend anybody to go see him. One hour with Dan would be great and probably two hours. The 'schools' are just not worth it. And Dan, you need a plan with your students. Taking someone on the course (especially someone from up North who has not been on a golf course for two months) for 50-60% of the time is a waste.

[Hstead]

I have quite a bit of experience with lessons and practicing, so I understand how important it is not not work on too many things at once, and also how dangerous it is too sometimes to want to know too much. The first time I went to iteach, I specifically told him to not tell me anything other than what I needed for my swing. I don't give a rats rear end how Hogan did it, or Moe Norman, or Jack. I wanted to know why I sucked and how to unsuck.

After working with iteach for 3 years, our lessons go something like this:

1 - 0.05%
2 - 20%
3 - 60%
4 - 19.95%

I mostly have the same couple of errors, but he can explain it to me under three minutes and the rest is talking about "feeling like" this or that and him watching me hit shots and saying "that is better" and showing me the last swing I made because he records dang near every one of the three hundred or saying "nope, try this".

After three years, iteach has my swing to the point I don't have to think about hardly anything, I hit my driver with a draw or fade, or sometimes straight with rarely ever a double cross, a one way miss, and my irons are one and a half longer than I used to hit them. Thanks Dan.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Schnee' timestamp='1440634829' post='12215034']
[quote name='TPG1971' timestamp='1440633910' post='12214926']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1440616245' post='12213286']
In an hour lesson, number one takes almost no time. Quite literally as little as a minute or two and not more than 5.

Number two, as long as it takes for an understanding to develop between myself and the client.

Number three is the rest of the time.

1. 10% or less
2. Hopefully not more than 20-30%
3. Hopefully 50% or more.


4. In my perfect world, at least every other lesson would be on course. Since that's not feasible....as often as possible. Those who have attended my 3 day clinics, most agree on course is the best of the 3 days.
[/quote]

How much time before the lesson to apply hair product?


[/quote]


BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURN
[/quote]

At my age, having hair to put product in.....is huge.

Now if I can just lose 20 more pounds, get my scoring game in order, I can reel in all the hot young champions tour groupies.

[Schnee]

[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1440635520' post='12215086']
I'll give a little review of my 3 days with Dan (Feb 3-5, 2015)

Day One: Dan shows up 15 minutes late and the weather is 32 degrees. We basically just talked for the first 45 minutes and I hardly hit any balls. The conversation was not even about golf for the most part, just a bunch of bullshitting. I finally get to hit a few balls and Dan is quick to identify my fault. Great! I continue to hit balls over the next three hours and Dan hardly has anything to say about my swing. If I blocked it I turned my body too quick and if I hooked it my body stalled. Not really any other swing feels or drills for the rest of the day to help the problem. Dan talked so freakin much (mostly about cars) I had a hard time focusing on what I wanted I was trying to accomplish. Zero time on the golf course and zero short game.

Day Two: Hit balls for two hours, hardly any instruction once again. More talk about cars and all of his great junior students. We go out to play the next two hours and during that two hours maybe 15 minutes of instruction.

Day Three: One hour of hitting balls three hours on the golf course. The last 30 minutes were him showing me how great the 17th hole is.

12 hours with Dan and the only thing I know is that I don't extend my right arm. I was dropping my right shoulder and never getting any extension. He gave me two drills. 1) Put my left foot against the wall and swing the butt of club into it, while holding my right shoulder back.
2) Put the ball way forward (like in front of my left foot) and hit balls, this should help you extend into impact.

We spent no more that 30 minutes, out of 12 hours I paid for, on the short game, and one of the things I told him I needed to improve was my sand play.

There are two reasons I am writing this post, and I have been thinking about a while, but up until now have been biting my tongue:
1) I just want everyone to be wary of spending the amount of $$ that I did. For the record I have seen zero return in my golf game.
2) Dan, I know, you know what you are talking about. But maybe you need to sit down and have a better plan of what you are going to do in your golf schools. There have obviously been some unhappy customers. Listening to your students is not a bad idea. There is a big difference between a 30 handicap telling you what is going on and a 1 HDCP. Dan is a great guy, very knowledgeable, good to talk with, but in all honesty I cannot at this time recommend anybody to go see him. One hour with Dan would be great and probably two hours. The 'schools' are just not worth it. And Dan, you need a plan with your students. Taking someone on the course (especially someone from up North who has not been on a golf course for two months) for 50-60% of the time is a waste.
[/quote]

Why wouldn't you speak up after the first day then? Say hey, this isn't going how I expected. Can we work more on xyz?

[iteachgolf]

I'll give a little review of my 3 days with Dan (Feb 3-5, 2015)

 

Day One: Dan shows up 15 minutes late and the weather is 32 degrees. We basically just talked for the first 45 minutes and I hardly hit any balls. The conversation was not even about golf for the most part, just a bunch of bullshitting. I finally get to hit a few balls and Dan is quick to identify my fault. Great! I continue to hit balls over the next three hours and Dan hardly has anything to say about my swing. If I blocked it I turned my body too quick and if I hooked it my body stalled. Not really any other swing feels or drills for the rest of the day to help the problem. Dan talked so freakin much (mostly about cars) I had a hard time focusing on what I wanted I was trying to accomplish. Zero time on the golf course and zero short game.

 

Day Two: Hit balls for two hours, hardly any instruction once again. More talk about cars and all of his great junior students. We go out to play the next two hours and during that two hours maybe 15 minutes of instruction.

 

Day Three: One hour of hitting balls three hours on the golf course. The last 30 minutes were him showing me how great the 17th hole is.

 

12 hours with Dan and the only thing I know is that I don't extend my right arm. I was dropping my right shoulder and never getting any extension. He gave me two drills. 1) Put my left foot against the wall and swing the butt of club into it, while holding my right shoulder back.

2) Put the ball way forward (like in front of my left foot) and hit balls, this should help you extend into impact.

 

We spent no more that 30 minutes, out of 12 hours I paid for, on the short game, and one of the things I told him I needed to improve was my sand play.

 

There are two reasons I am writing this post, and I have been thinking about a while, but up until now have been biting my tongue:

1) I just want everyone to be wary of spending the amount of $$ that I did. For the record I have seen zero return in my golf game.

2) Dan, I know, you know what you are talking about. But maybe you need to sit down and have a better plan of what you are going to do in your golf schools. There have obviously been some unhappy customers. Listening to your students is not a bad idea. There is a big difference between a 30 handicap telling you what is going on and a 1 HDCP. Dan is a great guy, very knowledgeable, good to talk with, but in all honesty I cannot at this time recommend anybody to go see him. One hour with Dan would be great and probably two hours. The 'schools' are just not worth it. And Dan, you need a plan with your students. Taking someone on the course (especially someone from up North who has not been on a golf course for two months) for 50-60% of the time is a waste.

 

Oh I'm sure there have been some that are disappointed. Like I said part of this was seeing people's thoughts and getting opinions. Generate a discussion

 

We talked about more than that as I have your notes you sent me. Worked on setting the club faster with less trail arm bend and getting arms working down and wider while pivot was delayed. Your issues are largely sequence based and the way to fix it is a ton of reps, especially in slow motion. Sequence got good on the range and so we went on the course to see how it changed. Tendencies krept back on the course as you hit it harder. The time on the course with get you comfortable doing the correct sequence there. As you could do it on the range. When the issue isn't the actual mechanics but the order in which you do them there is only so much I can say. When changing the sequence there will be lots of supervised practice.

 

Your a golf pro who's goal was to play better in tournaments. Mechanically swing isn't bad. Sequence was off. Impact got way better over the 3 days as did your shots. And this is the first I'm hearing any of this from you. Like I said nobody is perfect. I'm always learning.

 

I also am very easy to reach with any follow up questions you may have and got nothing asking any more clarity except after the first day. I'd still answer any questions you may have. The short game stuff I teach is very simple and basic. There isn't going to be hours of info and you tend to get it or you don't. The mechanics are pretty close to identical for every short game shot I teach. Which is why it's simple and predictable. Sorry to hear you think you got 0 out of it and felt you didn't improve. I think this look worlds different

 

Before

 

After

 

Before/after with driver

 

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1440635520' post='12215086']
I'll give a little review of my 3 days with Dan (Feb 3-5, 2015)

Day One: Dan shows up 15 minutes late and the weather is 32 degrees. We basically just talked for the first 45 minutes and I hardly hit any balls. The conversation was not even about golf for the most part, just a bunch of bullshitting. I finally get to hit a few balls and Dan is quick to identify my fault. Great! I continue to hit balls over the next three hours and Dan hardly has anything to say about my swing. If I blocked it I turned my body too quick and if I hooked it my body stalled. Not really any other swing feels or drills for the rest of the day to help the problem. Dan talked so freakin much (mostly about cars) I had a hard time focusing on what I wanted I was trying to accomplish. Zero time on the golf course and zero short game.

Day Two: Hit balls for two hours, hardly any instruction once again. More talk about cars and all of his great junior students. We go out to play the next two hours and during that two hours maybe 15 minutes of instruction.

Day Three: One hour of hitting balls three hours on the golf course. The last 30 minutes were him showing me how great the 17th hole is.

12 hours with Dan and the only thing I know is that I don't extend my right arm. I was dropping my right shoulder and never getting any extension. He gave me two drills. 1) Put my left foot against the wall and swing the butt of club into it, while holding my right shoulder back.
2) Put the ball way forward (like in front of my left foot) and hit balls, this should help you extend into impact.

We spent no more that 30 minutes, out of 12 hours I paid for, on the short game, and one of the things I told him I needed to improve was my sand play.

There are two reasons I am writing this post, and I have been thinking about a while, but up until now have been biting my tongue:
1) I just want everyone to be wary of spending the amount of $$ that I did. For the record I have seen zero return in my golf game.
2) Dan, I know, you know what you are talking about. But maybe you need to sit down and have a better plan of what you are going to do in your golf schools. There have obviously been some unhappy customers. Listening to your students is not a bad idea. There is a big difference between a 30 handicap telling you what is going on and a 1 HDCP. Dan is a great guy, very knowledgeable, good to talk with, but in all honesty I cannot at this time recommend anybody to go see him. [b]One hour with Dan would be great and probably two hours.[/b] The 'schools' are just not worth it. And Dan, you need a plan with your students. Taking someone on the course (especially someone from up North who has not been on a golf course for two months) for 50-60% of the time is a waste.
[/quote]

As a 1 cap, not sure why you would've signed up for 12 hours in the first place as opposed to the one or two you mention later. Also, it takes two to talk and if you wanted to get down to biz, you could've spoken up. Why didn't you ask Dan for more time with your sand play if you only got 30 minutes total on the entire short game ? I'm sure the distance you traveled has something to do with it but you could've done 3 hours, played the Stadium Course and come home with the same swing thoughts and some leftover cash.

[Hoganstriker]

I have to say I put more stock in number one than the others have thus far. I don't think anyone can implement a change unless they truly realize why it needs to be made.
In terms of students a change in intent is worth more than anything and I believe it takes some buy in. Change in intent equals swing change.
So unless you are the type who just wants to follow direction and not know what you are doing number one deserves some respect. I mean don't you want to own your swing?
It's one thing if you just want to hit it better immediately without knowing why. That's not owning your swing.

[Grayback1973]

[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1440638124' post='12215334'][quote name='thekru' timestamp='1440635520' post='12215086']
I'll give a little review of my 3 days with Dan (Feb 3-5, 2015)

Day One: Dan shows up 15 minutes late and the weather is 32 degrees. We basically just talked for the first 45 minutes and I hardly hit any balls. The conversation was not even about golf for the most part, just a bunch of bullshitting. I finally get to hit a few balls and Dan is quick to identify my fault. Great! I continue to hit balls over the next three hours and Dan hardly has anything to say about my swing. If I blocked it I turned my body too quick and if I hooked it my body stalled. Not really any other swing feels or drills for the rest of the day to help the problem. Dan talked so freakin much (mostly about cars) I had a hard time focusing on what I wanted I was trying to accomplish. Zero time on the golf course and zero short game.

Day Two: Hit balls for two hours, hardly any instruction once again. More talk about cars and all of his great junior students. We go out to play the next two hours and during that two hours maybe 15 minutes of instruction.

Day Three: One hour of hitting balls three hours on the golf course. The last 30 minutes were him showing me how great the 17th hole is.

12 hours with Dan and the only thing I know is that I don't extend my right arm. I was dropping my right shoulder and never getting any extension. He gave me two drills. 1) Put my left foot against the wall and swing the butt of club into it, while holding my right shoulder back.
2) Put the ball way forward (like in front of my left foot) and hit balls, this should help you extend into impact.

We spent no more that 30 minutes, out of 12 hours I paid for, on the short game, and one of the things I told him I needed to improve was my sand play.

There are two reasons I am writing this post, and I have been thinking about a while, but up until now have been biting my tongue:
1) I just want everyone to be wary of spending the amount of $$ that I did. For the record I have seen zero return in my golf game.
2) Dan, I know, you know what you are talking about. But maybe you need to sit down and have a better plan of what you are going to do in your golf schools. There have obviously been some unhappy customers. Listening to your students is not a bad idea. There is a big difference between a 30 handicap telling you what is going on and a 1 HDCP. Dan is a great guy, very knowledgeable, good to talk with, but in all honesty I cannot at this time recommend anybody to go see him. [b]One hour with Dan would be great and probably two hours.[/b] The 'schools' are just not worth it. And Dan, you need a plan with your students. Taking someone on the course (especially someone from up North who has not been on a golf course for two months) for 50-60% of the time is a waste.
[/quote]

As a 1 cap, not sure why you would've signed up for 12 hours in the first place as opposed to the one or two you mention later. Also, it takes two to talk and if you wanted to get down to biz, you could've spoken up. Why didn't you ask Dan for more time with your sand play if you only got 30 minutes total on the entire short game ? I'm sure the distance you traveled has something to do with it but you could've done 3 hours, played the Stadium Course and come home with the same swing thoughts and some leftover cash.[/quote]Wow,I didn't think of that.If I could do it over again,I would have had an hour with Teach,went to Neptune Beach(cleanest most beautiful beach I have ever seen)and played the stadium course.....hindsight is always 20/20.....

[JW223]

To some extent, this comes down to setting expectations. No instructor should have to compromise their beliefs on how to teach. But on the other hand, clients need to be happy. One size doesn't always fit all. Maybe some sort of pre-lesson information exchange needs to take place to get everyone on the same page.

[Deepfork]

Dan, students don't know what they don't know. As a student, I want and need the instructor to diagnose the problem and guide the instruction, both structure and time. I would never presume that I know what my problem is and how to fix it. All I know is my wayward drives are killing me and my short game is atrocious. I've never had an instructor explain how i need to practice, but I can see how that would be very important and much appreciated.

[Hoganstriker]

True teaching changes the viewpoint of those being instructed thus resulting in change of intention.

[PepsiDuck]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1440630880' post='12214644']
Was 2 people who came together. One had never taken lessons and the other has been playing for 12 months or so and never had lessons. The one individual emailed 2 days after they left to say he was disappointed. I offered him a refund of the value he felt like he didn't receive. Obviously I didn't have to do anything but rather not deal with it. There is no way I'd ever meet his expectations and easier to never have to deal with it. The questions were to gauge what people thought was practical, whether I agreed or not. I have nearly 100 videos I filmed over a day and a half including nearly every full swing during the 9 holes they played but I wasn't "engaged or teaching" except for the 3 hours of actual mechanical info given. None of the course time or supervised practice or discussion how to practice counted as "teaching"
[/quote]

The problem with a lot of students, especially those new to lessons or those who haven't been playing long, is the unwavering desire for instant gratification. If they aren't striking the ball consistently better in a short time, then they will feel like their lessons were a "waste of time." So no matter how many videos you take of them or how much you discuss course management or practice routines, if they aren't striking the ball noticeably better, they will not feel like the lessons were worth it. This will also depend a lot on the maturity of the student(s). Some will be able to understand the second and third order effects of what you're teaching them, while other won't be able to see past the little white ball on the driving range.

And then again, some people are just more mechanically and technically inclined. That's just the way their brains are wired. Instead of feels and intents, they need positions, paths, and checkpoints. Not everyone learns the same...

[triplebogeyblues]

I don't think it is right to come back 6 months after the fact and bash an instructor in a public forum if you never expressed your dissatisfaction to him personally.

To each their own I guess.

[crust]

Every student that comes to you has expectations. Not just as to outcomes, but also as to the process. Some may be realistic, others unreasonable.
Customer dissatisfaction derives from expectations unmet.
When you first chat to the student about handicap, experience, strengths, weaknesses etc., talk about the process. Identify their expectations. Give them a lesson plan. What you're doing and why.
It'll take but a minute or so.
Also, what may be painfully obvious to you may not be to the punter.
It's all about communication.

[golfnff]

^^^ well said Triple. Have to say Dan the before and afters look like solid improvements were made

[Matt J]

To get back to your original question... I don't know that there's a formula.

My suggestion would be to research some learning psychology and try and adapt a model for three or four groups based on experience and expectations. Perhaps + up to 3 index, 4-12, 13-20, and raw beginners.

My intuition is that the less mastery a student has of a subject especially a move like the golf swing then the more supervised practice will work. There's probably some preferred methodology in each of the skill ranges.

Individually as a student I've found that communicating why exactly I need to make a change is very big for me. I've made a lot of changes and some of them weren't for the better so I really try and own my swing and understand what is personal preference and what is structurally incorrect. My last lesson the instructor seemed to have a very special ability to see my worst flaw and focus solely on that. Turned out that led to a couple of other pretty huge breakthroughs on my own. Funny enough, with some other guys I've worked with, some of them just friends who are pros, I will indulge them and try everything they suggest, but if it doesn't make sense or deliver incredible results then it's gone as soon as they turn around.

BTW, I don't consider the above critique as a "bashing." Fella saw an opportunity to deliver some feedback and took advantage. Dan seems to be a big enough guy to take it, you should be too.

A school for a "pro" would be a million ways different than for a rank beginner, so a one size fits all for your breakdown would be impossible. The breakdown would be dependent on skill level IMO.

[wmblake2000]

I don't like to take a lot of lessons because internalizing stuff is important - once, twice a month, then less often. So I want direction so I can ingrain and expand. So I want a good assessment (20-30%) so I get a decent map in my thinking/imagination and recognize resistance to the suggestion and talk it thru, enough time to 'get it' - whatever that takes (hopefully < 30%) but then a lot of time doing it being watched so I get a clue, feel wise, about whether I am doing it better or not.

[ScratchNot]

I think 2 and 3 would be areas I would prefer most time be spent on.

Different people learn differently. I attended a golf school (not Dan's) recently with 12 other students. I did not feel like that format was conducive to the way I learn. Not the instructors fault. If I had to do it again, I would probably just get a 1-2 hour lesson with the instructor (who is great, btw) to get more 1:1 time.

[ej002]

0% x 4

100% getting fitted for blades with x7

[HusseinR]

Like the majority are saying, it depends on the individual. A good way to go about it is having that discussion with the student before the lesson starts, just spend 5 minutes listening to what they want to spend time on. If during the lesson you see that they don't need as much time in a certain area you can recommend moving on to the next portion.

A way to prevent someone being displeased with a lesson whether it's an hour, 2 hour, or 3 day lesson is setting a check point midway and asking the student if they're comfortable with how the lesson is going. It would make your job a lot easier if the student just told you straight up if there are issues, but most people aren't comfortable doing that especially if they're new to lessons. For the 2 or 3 day schools I would just do a recap of the previous lesson at the start of the new one, just go over what you covered and outline what you plan on going over during the lesson ahead. A student just likes to be reassured that they're doing everything correctly and making progress.

[thekru]

[color=#282828]I just wanted to thank you for posting the truth about your Jacksonville trip.I had a very similar experience and really have not been fully honest with the forum members about it.I did say that I haven't improved with Dan at all and that is the truth.[/color]

[color=#282828]When I went the thing that got me was how much time Dan spent talking about stuff not even related to my golf swing! On day 2 when I got there in the morning Dan was hitting balls into his simulator and continued to do so for over 20 minutes.I never got a sense that he cared the least bit about my progress.Quite frankly I don't care for his personality at all.I think he is self bloated and arrogant.He is a terrible listener as well and seriously needs to work on his people skills.As far as I am concerned the trip was a complete waste of time and money.You have my permission to copy and paste this if you want.Just be sure it is anonymous.I wish I would have been more honest about my experience.It is kind of too late now.Take care![/color]

[color=#282828]**This was sent to me by an anonymous member on GolfWRX. I thought I would post his review. I'm not doing this to throw Dan under the bus. He gets plenty of positive reviews on this site, so be your own judge. Hopefully Dan will use these as a way to improve his schools.[/color]

[iteachgolf]

[color=#000000][size=3]I figured I will make a post about exactly what goes on when I do a golf school (not a large group school at a destination but when individuals come to FL and spend a few days with me). I’m also going to explain exactly why I do things the way I do and there is good reasoning behind it. I apologize for the length but I rather be as transparent as possible. I will also be adding this to my website so there is no confusion.[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]
A golf school generally consist of 8-12 hours of instruction in which I will begin by identifying the largest priorities that need to be addressed in the full swing. This usually means 3-5 things. It is certainly not everything that’s wrong or needs improvement but these are the things that will have the largest positive impact on your game. 3-5 things may not sound like a lot but it is a lot to work on. It will realistically take you months to get them where you need to be before you even think about adding any more pieces. The good news is I don’t expect anyone to do them perfectly right away. I expect constant gradual improvement. As long as you are doing them better you will hit better good shots, the bad shots won’t be as bad, and you will have the potential to shoot lower scores. Those 3-5 things will be covered on the first day of the school and primarily in the first 2 hours. [/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]
The rest of the full swing work will be discussing how to implement the changes and actually implementing them. We will discuss how to practice, what to practice, how often to practice and the correct mindset to have while practicing. We will spend a lot of time doing “supervised practice”. [/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]
By that I mean you will be implementing the prescribed changes under my supervision. During this time frame you will make some swing that are very close to/exactly like we want you to make. You will also make swings where you revert back to your old bad habits and some where you create new bad habits (generally due to lack of trust and even if the swing is better it will feel awkward). This in my opinion is the most important part of the school. I will watch and/or film every one of these shots and give feedback on when you did it correctly and when you don’t do it correctly why it was wrong. The point of this is to create awareness. This allows you to gradually be able to tie in what you are feeling while you swing, to a ball flight (whether good or bad), to what you are actually doing in your swing. This is the bulk of the time and the most important part because this is what will allow you to diagnose your bad shots and be able to self correct not only on the range but during the course of a round. You will hit bad shots, you’re human, but you will now why you did it and the direction you need to head to fix it. This is what will allow you to maintain and continue improving the change you make when you leave and don’t have me there to supervise. This is the part that helps tie things together and make them stick. [/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]
Some of the supervised practice will be on the course. The point of going on the course is not to keep score but to practice with some consequences. Your swing will revert under pressure. Part of going on the course is to recognize why it reverts and how you can go about making sure it does it as little as possible. Will also cover some course management and short game while on the course. [/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]
The bulk of the information, especially on the full swing will be done on the first day. The rest of the time will be short game, strategy, and implementation. If you only want the information and want to practice on your own you are better off with only a half day. Can cover 2 hours of full swing mechanics, some short game mechanics, and possibly a little strategy and discussion about practice and continuing improvement. Information given in a half day school as far as purely mechanical is the same thats generally given in a 8-12 hour school. Its the supervised practice and time on the course that is different. [/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]
Obviously some will value that higher than others. My golf schools are not 12 hours of theory and information where you are going to get 25 things to work on. A Morad school would be more up your alley if that’s what you are after. And there are other option out there that can give you that. [/size][/color]

[Soloman1]

In all fairness, it should be noted that some people are bad students.

I find it ironic that Dan has spent a lot of time answering questions with maturity and without emotion. I trust he would have answered questions in person as completely as he has here. I didn't read that Dan didn't or wouldn't answer questions.

Students have a responisbility to ask questions...

[David C]

[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1440706009' post='12219986']
[color=#282828]I just wanted to thank you for posting the truth about your Jacksonville trip.I had a very similar experience and really have not been fully honest with the forum members about it.I did say that I haven't improved with Dan at all and that is the truth.[/color]

[color=#282828]When I went the thing that got me was how much time Dan spent talking about stuff not even related to my golf swing! On day 2 when I got there in the morning Dan was hitting balls into his simulator and continued to do so for over 20 minutes.I never got a sense that he cared the least bit about my progress.Quite frankly I don't care for his personality at all.I think he is self bloated and arrogant.He is a terrible listener as well and seriously needs to work on his people skills.As far as I am concerned the trip was a complete waste of time and money.You have my permission to copy and paste this if you want.Just be sure it is anonymous.I wish I would have been more honest about my experience.It is kind of too late now.Take care![/color]

[color=#282828]**This was sent to me by an anonymous member on GolfWRX. I thought I would post his review. I'm not doing this to throw Dan under the bus. He gets plenty of positive reviews on this site, so be your own judge. Hopefully Dan will use these as a way to improve his schools.[/color]
[/quote]

^^^ this is a disingenuous and crass post. Libellous even. 'Hopefully use these' - What a poor thing to say. These sort of opinions even if honestly held, any issues - you should sort it personally first not impugn someone in a public forum. You can easily leave constructive feedback in a more civil way.