Justin rose, left arm downswing

[TB07]

Don't kill me if I'm not exact on this, but didn't Hardy's one plane swing have a similar move to go left?

[ej002]

Good I am glad you saw it - as that is CLEARLY the drill I was discussing, which happens to be the drill mentioned in the article in Jeep's original post. You know, the drill that Rose called the "opposite".

Your post of Tiger doing something else very similar to Rose is you again shifting the goal posts. Either you are purposefully being difficult or you failed to read the original article posted, Bc this is what I have been discussing the whole time.

To answer your latest question - which is also irrelevant - Gravity would act on the shaft / handle / club head equally - when allow the hands to drop in front while staying closed. Again no steepening will occur without IR of the right shoulder / roll of forearms or pulling the handle - the pulling rose seems to be battling with his early shoulder turn.

[ej002]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441764086' post='12284832']
You are understanding. It's just none of those students would rehearse Rose's move. They are steep early. Rose is flat early. Rose just doesn't always exit left enough. He releases down the line and flips. So his exaggerated move, in my opinion, is to feel left with the body through impact and feel the club go left. Would only be able to do that if you are flat early and/or hands work too much out.

Does that make sense? I might not be explaining it to well, I'm doing 7 things at once including trying to watch Tin Cup!
[/quote]


If he was flat early - he would need to pivot like a hell to square the face and roll the snot out of 3 which would look left release.

Here he is flipping - which you say is trying to stop. If you are correct he should be "flat early"

I give you exhibit A
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OsxFZjkWSyE



As even a novice can see his shoulders move early and he gets arms a bit behind. Consequently he is steep early.

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441766550' post='12285126']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441764086' post='12284832']
You are understanding. It's just none of those students would rehearse Rose's move. They are steep early. Rose is flat early. Rose just doesn't always exit left enough. He releases down the line and flips. So his exaggerated move, in my opinion, is to feel left with the body through impact and feel the club go left. Would only be able to do that if you are flat early and/or hands work too much out.

Does that make sense? I might not be explaining it to well, I'm doing 7 things at once including trying to watch Tin Cup!
[/quote]


If he was flat early - he would need to pivot like a hell to square the face and roll the snot out of 3 which would look left release.

Here he is flipping - which you say is trying to stop. If you are correct he should be "flat early"

I give you exhibit A
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OsxFZjkWSyE



As even a novice can see his shoulders move early and he gets arms a bit behind. Consequently he is steep early.
[/quote]

9:05
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jh6RbcRXLDs

Even mentions what Tiger "should" be doing because what Tiger was doing was bringing hands straight down.

2:15

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1YV48Ix2XQQ

[TB07]

[attachment=2945874:image.jpg]

One more

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441766550' post='12285126']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441764086' post='12284832']
You are understanding. It's just none of those students would rehearse Rose's move. They are steep early. Rose is flat early. Rose just doesn't always exit left enough. He releases down the line and flips. So his exaggerated move, in my opinion, is to feel left with the body through impact and feel the club go left. Would only be able to do that if you are flat early and/or hands work too much out.

Does that make sense? I might not be explaining it to well, I'm doing 7 things at once including trying to watch Tin Cup!
[/quote]


As even a novice can see his shoulders move early and he gets arms a bit behind. Consequently he is steep early.
[/quote]

So your fix would be to feel his left arm so tight to his torso that he jams his right elbow into his side? That's exactly what he says in the article. It's also what you say is similar to getting left arm off the chest.

[golfjoe]

i think it´s not the best advice for a "stuck player"...a lot of people will try to pull the left arm down by dropping the right shoulder or pulling the handle resulting in flips and two way misses..."stuck player" Tiger did exactly the opposite movement under foley...he turned the right shoulder out (unfortunately with way too less secondary tilt) and tried to get a "cut-outside-in-feeling" swing in order not to get under the plane and get his hands in front of him...i think this was a really good drill for him...in my opinion monte´s left arm video is the way to go...get the left arm of the chest and fire, while getting the right shoulder out... it feels fluent and you don´t have to slow down things......

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441764180' post='12284844']
Don't kill me if I'm not exact on this, but didn't Hardy's one plane swing have a similar move to go left?
[/quote]

it was different, they wanted you to throw right hand out from top,

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441766550' post='12285126']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441764086' post='12284832']
You are understanding. It's just none of those students would rehearse Rose's move. They are steep early. Rose is flat early. Rose just doesn't always exit left enough. He releases down the line and flips. So his exaggerated move, in my opinion, is to feel left with the body through impact and feel the club go left. Would only be able to do that if you are flat early and/or hands work too much out.

Does that make sense? I might not be explaining it to well, I'm doing 7 things at once including trying to watch Tin Cup!
[/quote]


If he was flat early - he would need to pivot like a hell to square the face and roll the snot out of 3 which would look left release.

Here he is flipping - which you say is trying to stop. If you are correct he should be "flat early"

I give you exhibit A
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OsxFZjkWSyE



As even a novice can see his shoulders move early and he gets arms a bit behind. Consequently he is steep early.
[/quote]

[attachment=2946196:image.jpg]

This is from your video example of which you say " shoulders move early, consequently he is steep early".
I cross examine you on exhibit A. This is a still frame of his first move in transition. The more vertical yellow line was his backswing plane. You can see he IMMEDIATELY flattens the club. It no longer matches the backswing plane but matches the shaft plane.

[TB07]

[attachment=2946218:image.jpg]

Next frame.

[ej002]

Keep going and you will see how out of sorts he is by 6. The drill done correctly will get him way better alignments and more shallow - those photos look steep to me. If they don't to you, that is fine.

[PepsiDuck]

So assuming the shoulder turn should be perpendicular to the spine, pursuant to an older Monte video from the cargo short days, shouldn't the left arm come off the chest parallel to the ground if one were to stand straight up with their arms extended straight out and turn around their spine? Then when you bend over to address the ball, the left arm comes off the chest in the same path in relation to the spine?

I assume it should be that simple...?

[ej002]

Here is CHIII who straightens that arm very fast - compare his shoulders to Rose. Way straighter right arm, no?

Is the club head "kicking out"? Lmao, no... it not. He is coming way from the inside like I been saying all along. You don't get it. I am done posting because there is nothing to gain in this one except for the inevitable.


[attachment=2946226:image.jpg]

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441807310' post='12287060']
Keep going and you will see how out of sorts he is by 6. The drill done correctly will get him way better alignments and more shallow - those photos look steep to me. If they don't to you, that is fine.
[/quote]

It doesn't. I see him shallowing a good amount early downswing. He's not shallowing crazy like a Sergio but he's definitely shallow. I would give you the drill could get him inside more or deeper early downswing, but not shallower. At best it would maintain the angle of the shaft but it wouldn't shallow. Every time I have seen him do the rehearsal the shaft steepens. At the end of the day it's all designed so he can swing left through it.

[TB07]

If you keep changing topics and goal posts I am about done posting as well. CH3 doesn't work his hands/arms straight down like Rose's drill. For a very brief moment the butt of CH3's club goes straight down, and during that time the shaft does not shallow, then he gets his hands working down AND out very fast. Which shallows the club. Arms definately don't stay pinned very tight to his chest.

[TB07]

[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1441807476' post='12287070']
So assuming the shoulder turn should be perpendicular to the spine, pursuant to an older Monte video from the cargo short days, shouldn't the left arm come off the chest parallel to the ground if one were to stand straight up with their arms extended straight out and turn around their spine? Then when you bend over to address the ball, the left arm comes off the chest in the same path in relation to the spine?

I assume it should be that simple...?
[/quote]

I don't think Rose's DRILL/FEEL is anything like getting the left arm off the chest. Rose has his own reasons for doing what he's doing, and as we all know feels seen real, but IMO it's not the same move at all. Feel free to ask Monte or Dan and if they say it's the same intention and feel I would be shocked.

[ej002]

You can't look at this stuff in a vacuum, it requires a bit of application to connect the dots. The video of Rose discussing his body getting too forward, arms too far behind and running out of room causing him to back out and flip IMO sounds like a sequencing issue. He basically states this in the article Jeep posted, when he discusses his right shoulder coming out too soon. Much of that will clean up if his arms come down and are more in front. Monte makes a nearly identical point in his off the chest move, which move Dan also discusses for certain guys. Monte just approaches it slightly different, which is fine as that is how he teaches it. Regardless, the feel Rose is describing serves the same purpose and is really not much different. The straighter right arm and more in sync will allow Rose to free wheel the pivot without stalling. That is the ultimate goal, not steepening or tipping out to fake the club going left. The club exiting left should be a result of doing it right and not forced.

[TB07]

I never really said getting the club to tip out was the ultimate goal, never even said its a good thing either. Its just what happens when he tries to keep the club in front of him and go left. I said several times the goal was for him to go left with the body. What he feels in the article is not the same as left arm off the chest, IMO.

[ej002]

Oh I know - the goal in your opinion is to exit left and "stabilize the face" - even if it kicks out the club early and creates shaft lean "just like Tiger". How did those 180 yard pitching wedges work out for Tiger?

[Slothead]

those darn goalposts are always moving, isn't that right.

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441817155' post='12288022']
Oh I know - the goal in your opinion is to exit left and "stabilize the face" - even if it kicks out the club early and creates shaft lean "just like Tiger". How did those 180 yard pitching wedges work out for Tiger?
[/quote]

I already said he can afford to exaggerate the down (which gets club head more out) because he's flat enough early in the downswing.

Edit- misinterpret what you said

[TB07]

Just had a little chat with Dan as I thought it would benefit the thread. Basically he said that what Rose does in reality is the same as what Dan describes, but Rose's description is not the same.

[PepsiDuck]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441821343' post='12288418']
Just had a little chat with Dan as I thought it would benefit the thread. Basically he said that what Rose does in reality is the same as what Dan describes, but Rose's description is not the same.
[/quote]

Isn't it pretty well-settled that what a lot of touring professionals who contribute instructional articles describe may not reflect what they are actually doing, i.e., feel is not real?

[TB07]

[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1441821819' post='12288466']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441821343' post='12288418']
Just had a little chat with Dan as I thought it would benefit the thread. Basically he said that what Rose does in reality is the same as what Dan describes, but Rose's description is not the same.
[/quote]

Isn't it pretty well-settled that what a lot of touring professionals who contribute instructional articles describe may not reflect what they are actually doing, i.e., feel is not real?
[/quote]

Yes, I agree. Maybe I wasn't listening, but my disagreement came when the drill he describes both in the article and in the interview about his swing that I posted, is said to be the same as left arm of the chest. If you say the drill he's describing is different, but how it comes together in real life is close, then i'm good with that.

[PepsiDuck]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441824636' post='12288688']
Yes, I agree. Maybe I wasn't listening, but my disagreement came when the drill he describes both in the article and in the interview about his swing that I posted, is said to be the same as left arm of the chest. If you say the drill he's describing is different, but how it comes together in real life is close, then i'm good with that.
[/quote]

I think I was the one to first bring up a comparison to the left arm off the chest intent, as that's been my main focus (and struggle) recently. The extent that Rose goes [i]down[/i], rather than [i]out[/i], as Monte advocates, caused me pause, so I wanted to bring it up. So if I was off the mark in the comparison, then that's my bust.

[chigolfer1]

And the same thing I said 58 posts prior. Are people not seeing that he literally says right in the article that this is my feel, but "in reality" that's not what happens due to the rotational forces of the pivot, which bring my arms out.




[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1441821819' post='12288466']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441821343' post='12288418']
Just had a little chat with Dan as I thought it would benefit the thread. Basically he said that what Rose does in reality is the same as what Dan describes, but Rose's description is not the same.
[/quote]

Isn't it pretty well-settled that what a lot of touring professionals who contribute instructional articles describe may not reflect what they are actually doing, i.e., feel is not real?
[/quote]

[TB07]

[quote name='chigolfer1' timestamp='1441829321' post='12289064']
And the same thing I said 58 posts prior. Are people not seeing that he literally says right in the article that this is my feel, but "in reality" that's not what happens due to the rotational forces of the pivot, which bring my arms out.




[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1441821819' post='12288466']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441821343' post='12288418']
Just had a little chat with Dan as I thought it would benefit the thread. Basically he said that what Rose does in reality is the same as what Dan describes, but Rose's description is not the same.
[/quote]

Isn't it pretty well-settled that what a lot of touring professionals who contribute instructional articles describe may not reflect what they are actually doing, i.e., feel is not real?
[/quote]
[/quote]

I saw it, and was never questioning feel vs real. The problem with feeling the left arm down and pinned to the chest, and allowing rotational forces to bring the arms out, is that I've never read anyone recieve that advice when trying to get the left arm off the chest. I could be wrong, and maybe someone has received that advice, but I've never seen it. There have been countless golfers on here with the problem of rotating too soon, and getting arms behind. Never has anyone said to get the left arm pinned, and moving down into the right side. It's not just the article either. Watch Rose's interview that I posted. He demonstrates that he's trying to get his left arm pinned behind his chest. Again, I've always seen the advice to get arm immediately off the chest. Nothing like what Rose says in the article or the video interview.

[PepsiDuck]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441830727' post='12289170']
I saw it, and was never questioning feel vs real. The problem with feeling the left arm down and pinned to the chest, and allowing rotational forces to bring the arms out, is that I've never read anyone recieve that advice when trying to get the left arm off the chest. I could be wrong, and maybe someone has received that advice, but I've never seen it. There have been countless golfers on here with the problem of rotating too soon, and getting arms behind. Never has anyone said to get the left arm pinned, and moving down into the right side. It's not just the article either. Watch Rose's interview that I posted. He demonstrates that he's trying to get his left arm pinned [B][U]behind[/U[/B] his chest. Again, I've always seen the advice to get arm immediately off the chest. Nothing like what Rose says in the article or the video interview.
[/quote]

Your use of the word [I]behind[/I] jumped out at me. By behind, do you mean that he is trying to get his left arm outside of his left pec, i.e., to the left and "behind" or under the left boob, as opposed to staying on top of the left boob? These are two distinct positions for me, as my pecs are slightly larger than normal, so my pre-shot routine involves me getting my left arm over top of the chest rather than stuck beneath it.

If you are talking about the former, then it's consistent with left arm off the chest, as you're getting the arm off the top of the chest and getting it tight to the side of the body, "behind" the chest.

Apologies for the poor explanation of this...

[TB07]

Not sure I completely understand? In the interview he demonstrates left arm is behind the right pec, because it was moving out (or in front of left pec) too soon.

[TB07]

3:55 in is when he demonstartes it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QLvSkoUBfGM