Justin rose, left arm downswing

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441738281' post='12282174']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441736107' post='12281976']
I'm not confused. [b]The problem with this discussion is that it all depends when each move occurs.[/b] If you don't define when it's occurring almost any scenario can work. I don't really have any goal posts to move. He does say he's doing the opposite of what Tiger did, but I've seen him practice this in person and its not that different. When Rose over does it he hits a pull just like Tiger did. Here is Rose discussing it himself. You can skip to 10:15 and again around 6:15.

[url="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QLvSkoUBfGM"]https://m.youtube.co...h?v=QLvSkoUBfGM[/url]
[/quote]

The timing is not a problem for this particular discussion, at least not for people that actually read the snippet of the article. The article clearly states that the move happens before the right shoulder comes out or down. Rose says he feels it when his "shoulders are closed."

The video you posted is a bit different than what he wrote but further illustrates that difference from the Tiger move. Tiger shifted waaay out and over, forcing him to then come down and around which steepened the club. Rose is going way down first then rotating. The moves couldn't be any different. In fact they are complete opposites resulting in opposite alignments.

Rose could hit pulls from there also, but for different reasons. Like the face being obscenely shut (maybe he was over bowing), he could rolls' #3 too early thus steeping the club, or if he screws up the sequencing and his shoulders rotate first before he tries to come down he could snipe it.
[/quote]

Tiger wanted to go hard left and lean the shaft more just like Rose. They were different early in the downswing I agree. They were different in what they rehearsed only in the early part of the downswing. The end goal was similar but needed different rehearsals based on the moves they were making.

Let's get back to the original goal post though shall we? Rose wants to go more left through impact. He clearly states in the video everything I said in this thread.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441736107' post='12281976']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441732639' post='12281726']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441731798' post='12281644']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441730571' post='12281498']
You do realize realize that exiting left has little to do with the p5 alignment? That is why VJ is CP but still looks flippy, while guys like Mahan who is CF could still have the slicefixer "leveraged" release look. BTW, Mahan doesn't shift out and still shallows.
[/quote]

What I am saying is everything Rose is doing is designed to have more shaft lean, and exit more left to stabilize the club face. He's trying to avoid chasing down the line with a flippy release.
[/quote]

I highly doubt he is interested in more shaft lien, but that is moving goal posts.

I think you are a bit confused here. You basically said that he is shifting out in an effort to swing more left. That is exactly what Tiger was doing with his goofy over the top practice move, which consequently gave him excess shaft lien and made him steep. Justin explains that he is doing the complete opposite. It is obvious from his comments about the shoulder and arm sequencing. I also doubt that the club head would kick out with what Justin is describing. It is possible, but again that is an entirely different piece that he would have to introduce.
[/quote]

I'm not confused. The problem with this discussion is that it all depends when each move occurs. If you don't define when it's occurring almost any scenario can work. I don't really have any goal posts to move. He does say he's doing the opposite of what Tiger did, but I've seen him practice this in person and its not that different. When Rose over does it he hits a pull just like Tiger did. Here is Rose discussing it himself. You can skip to 10:15 and again around 6:15.

[url="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QLvSkoUBfGM"]https://m.youtube.co...h?v=QLvSkoUBfGM[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks for that, yea he really explains it well in that vid. Seems like good stuff

[ej002]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441739207' post='12282260']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441738281' post='12282174']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441736107' post='12281976']
I'm not confused. [b]The problem with this discussion is that it all depends when each move occurs.[/b] If you don't define when it's occurring almost any scenario can work. I don't really have any goal posts to move. He does say he's doing the opposite of what Tiger did, but I've seen him practice this in person and its not that different. When Rose over does it he hits a pull just like Tiger did. Here is Rose discussing it himself. You can skip to 10:15 and again around 6:15.

[url="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QLvSkoUBfGM"]https://m.youtube.co...h?v=QLvSkoUBfGM[/url]
[/quote]

The timing is not a problem for this particular discussion, at least not for people that actually read the snippet of the article. The article clearly states that the move happens before the right shoulder comes out or down. Rose says he feels it when his "shoulders are closed."

The video you posted is a bit different than what he wrote but further illustrates that difference from the Tiger move. Tiger shifted waaay out and over, forcing him to then come down and around which steepened the club. Rose is going way down first then rotating. The moves couldn't be any different. In fact they are complete opposites resulting in opposite alignments.

Rose could hit pulls from there also, but for different reasons. Like the face being obscenely shut (maybe he was over bowing), he could rolls' #3 too early thus steeping the club, or if he screws up the sequencing and his shoulders rotate first before he tries to come down he could snipe it.
[/quote]

Tiger wanted to go hard left and lean the shaft more just like Rose. They were different early in the downswing I agree. They were different in what they rehearsed only in the early part of the downswing. The end goal was similar but needed different rehearsals based on the moves they were making.

Let's get back to the original goal post though shall we? Rose wants to go more left through impact. He clearly states in the video everything I said in this thread.
[/quote]


Rose wanting to go left is fine. I never disagreed with that once. What I take exception to is that you are trying to co-mingle the how. The second you said shift out and that what Rose is doing is the same thing as Tiger, it's obvious to those who understand these things that you really don't understand what was happening. I am happy for you that you can post things that were written or said, but that doesn't make you right about anything if you don't apply it correctly.

The going left has nothing to do with the p5 alignment. Like literally nothing. Going left has more to do with a longer arc coming through and being in sync, which is pretty easy to do if you fire #1 early. Consequently, that is what the article is all about, sequencing.

I still don't know where you get more shaft lean from. Yeah, he said he wanted to bow it a bit to shallow out. He also said he wanted to hang back a hair to give himself more space. What do you suppose happens to shaft lean when you bow a bit but also create more spine tilt?

[TB07]

You like to argue, I get it. From what I understand you have more experience at arguing. You throw out several different arguments, put words in my mouth, use alternate definitions from TGM, and Morad, and then see what sticks.

I never said said Rose and Tiger get there the same way. I never said Rose is doing the same thing as Tiger either. That's your crafty argument skills. I said Rose's practice rehearsal wasn't THAT different from Tiger's.

I also never specified anything about P5. That was again your crafty argument skills. I was discussing the move as a whole and what Rose is doing in order to go hard left.

If you want to bait someone into arguments and put words in my mouth then you can proceed on by yourself.

[ej002]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441745635' post='12282902']
You like to argue, I get it. From what I understand you have more experience at arguing. You throw out several different arguments, put words in my mouth, use alternate definitions from TGM, and Morad, and then see what sticks.

I never said said Rose and Tiger get there the same way. I never said Rose is doing the same thing as Tiger either. That's your crafty argument skills. I said Rose's practice rehearsal wasn't THAT different from Tiger's.

I also never specified anything about P5. That was again your crafty argument skills. I was discussing the move as a whole and what Rose is doing in order to go hard left.

If you want to bait someone into arguments and put words in my mouth then you can proceed on by yourself.
[/quote]


The bottom line remains that the first five guys who posted here were spot on about the move/feel. They all got it right away. There was even a video of Sean O'Hare that showed it. Someone said it's like Monte's left arm off the chest drill, just more down. (BTW, if you watch that video he shows left arm off the chest as the exact opposite of that Tiger shift out practice move.) For for 5 posts this thread was moving perfectly.

Then you started posting about Tiger's move, shift outs, and kicking the club out to get the club to release more left. I am sorry, but I interpreted your statements to be completely backwards from where the thread was going. I am really not being argumentative, but I think the guys on this great forum deserve correct information. You are supposed to be some sort of authority on golf, so I just wanted to make sure the guys were not confused by your posts by just "taking your word for it". I didn't intend to put words into your mouth and I brought up p5 b/c that is where you will see the biggest difference between Tiger's shift out and Rose's arms down feel. Please refrain from making personal comments about me in the future. Thanks.

[TB07]

Again, crafty. I never brought up Tiger until AFTER you did. You also brought up Vijay, Mahan, CP, CF, PA # something, and P5. Then tried to flip my words into saying Tiger and Justin arrive at impact the same way.Among other arguments. Throwing a lot of "stuff" at the wall and seeing what sticks.

I disagree that keeping the left arm pinned is the same as getting left arm off the chest. I would say you are completely wrong! It's the total opposite. Left arm pinned and moving down is going to steepen the shaft, just like it does in the O'Hair drill.

Sorry if I offended you by saying you are skilled in the art of arguing. Not trying to attack, just stating things as I see it. I will refrain from those comments in the future and would ask you to stop putting words in my mouth to try and skew the discussion.

Edit * to add... I never said I was an authority at all. I've stated many times my purpose in these threads is to learn, think, and improve. If someone says I'm wrong and backs it up, I'll be the first to admit it. You have not done that though.

[ej002]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441752214' post='12283490']
Again, crafty. I never brought up Tiger until AFTER you did. You also brought up Vijay, Mahan, CP, CF, PA # something, and P5. Then tried to flip my words into saying Tiger and Justin arrive at impact the same way.Among other arguments. Throwing a lot of "stuff" at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[b]I disagree that keeping the left arm pinned is the same as getting left arm off the chest. I would say you are completely wrong! It's the total opposite. Left arm pinned and moving down is going to steepen the shaft, just like it does in the O'Hair drill.[/b]

Sorry if I offended you by saying you are skilled in the art of arguing. Not trying to attack, just stating things as I see it. I will refrain from those comments in the future and would ask you to stop putting words in my mouth to try and skew the discussion.

Edit * to add... I never said I was an authority at all. I've stated many times my purpose in these threads is to learn, think, and improve. If someone says I'm wrong and backs it up, I'll be the first to admit it. You have not done that though.
[/quote]

My apologies, I must have imagined that Tiger post.

Rose said that the arms actually don't get pinned to his chest. But you can understand why he would feel like that after flipping and now being more connected. When the shoulders are closed and the arms come down, it is very similar to Monte's arms off the chest, just more down. Just like the 2nd or 3rd post states. BTW, there are other statements of yours that I disagree with. For example, the whole tipping out thing to exit more left. Now that would steepen the clubhead, but that is not what he is describing. Especially in his video when he demonstrates the bowed left wrist pushing down the line.

Either way, the point is that he said himself that he was getting too far forward with his body and had to back out to flip it. His solution (unlike Tigers) was to DELAY his shoulders and bring the arms down in front, then rotate. That is very different than coming over it with OTT hand path, or rolling the forearms to steepen it, or whatever it is that you claim is happening.

[ej002]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441711887' post='12279806']
Arms staying tight and dropping straight down is to get the club kicking out, and moving left. It's the opposite of trying to shallow the shaft.
[/quote]

Kickout where or how? The arms coming down won't kick out the club, the rotation does. Unless he rolled it immediately and came way over it like Dan does in the VSP video, your statement is wrong.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441724471' post='12280908']
The move is designed to keep the CLUBHEAD in front of the player and swing hard left. So it's an attempt to be less inside.
[/quote]

This is wrong again. The article states that he had TOO MUCH ROTATION. His shoulders fired way to early and he would have to stop stall and flip. What he is doing, now is to come from more from the INSIDE. Basically, just how Monte frames his arms off the chest video, this video is only for certain guys who rotate too much, the Rose move is or guys who rotate too much. The article flat out states this.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441729471' post='12281390']
Club head out as in not stuck behind, and exiting left. When the hands work out the shaft shallows and club head releases more down down the line versus left.
[/quote]

This was the first goal post move. Again, the move designed for Rose will NOT get the clubhead out too early, clubhead out too early was already happening by spinning shoulders too early.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441736107' post='12281976']
He does say he's doing the opposite of what Tiger did, but I've seen him practice this in person and its not that different.

[/quote]
You just said arms pinned against the chest a few posts back, how can the Rose move look anything like the Tiger move?

[TB07]

Just cause he rotated early doesn't necessarily mean he can't shallow the shaft. He was more upright in backswing, rotated early, and shallowed the shaft out. Chest staying closed, gives the arms time to get down, club can still steepen. When his arms work down, from a flatter backswing, the club is steepening. It's easy to see if you watch his rehearsals. Club is steepening and he is swinging left.

[TB07]

Like this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ay2DdxfzI

[TB07]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441756376' post='12283832']
Like this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ay2DdxfzI
[/quote]

Which one is shallowing the shaft more? The 2nd one where he's rotating sooner, or the third one where hands are working more down with delayed rotation?

[ej002]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441756376' post='12283832']
Like this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ay2DdxfzI
[/quote]

I would bet my life that If you asked somoene to demonstrate the Tigwr woods foley drill - it would be the one in the Wayne D video.

[TB07]

[attachment=2945452:image.jpg]


Early rotation, as EJ said.

[TB07]

[attachment=2945454:image.jpg]

Delayed rotation with arms working down. Which one is steepening the shaft?

[ej002]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441756455' post='12283844']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441756376' post='12283832']
Like this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ay2DdxfzI
[/quote]

Which one is shallowing the shaft more? The 2nd one where he's rotating sooner, or the third one where hands are working more down with delayed rotation?
[/quote]

I know what happens in real life and I explained it ad nauseum. Asking me what happens in a drill would be like someone asking you to give them a lesson based on a practice swing.

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441757394' post='12283936']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441756455' post='12283844']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441756376' post='12283832']
Like this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ay2DdxfzI
[/quote]

Which one is shallowing the shaft more? The 2nd one where he's rotating sooner, or the third one where hands are working more down with delayed rotation?
[/quote]

I know what happens in real life and I explained it ad nauseum. Asking me what happens in a drill would be like someone asking you to give them a lesson based on a practice swing.
[/quote]

Doesn't matter if it's a drill or not. It's showing you exactly what the intention is, and what happens when the arms work straight down. Stop moving the goal posts.

[TB07]

I'll give you a chance here. Is the swing Tiger is rehearsing in that video THAT different from what Rose is rehearsing?

[ej002]

So now you are back talking about Tiger - although you never brought him up. I was clearly describing the move at 1:00:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZLN6KJkHfI&ebc=ANyPxKpZfku3EIYNQJiNaYEwnF2QooU91gmgiJl1aSUrFvQ6M3zR36ThU7FG1XLZZPynGQaTeDN3tzL4UpWm04xQ3_PjsBUjiA


Anyone can see that reading my posts. Hence the reason I mentioned p5 differences. And I am sure you knew that.

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441759335' post='12284202']
So now you are back talking about Tiger - although you never brought him up. I was clearly describing the move at 1:00:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZLN6KJkHfI&ebc=ANyPxKpZfku3EIYNQJiNaYEwnF2QooU91gmgiJl1aSUrFvQ6M3zR36ThU7FG1XLZZPynGQaTeDN3tzL4UpWm04xQ3_PjsBUjiA


Anyone can see that reading my posts. Hence the reason I mentioned p5 differences. And I am sure you knew that.
[/quote]

So now it's ok to talk about rehearsal swings? Lol.. You are too much!

[Ghost of Snead]

See question in post #24 before someone's battleship gets sunk ...

[TB07]

[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1441760090' post='12284316']
See question in post #24 before someone's battleship gets sunk ...
[/quote]

Post # 28, second sentence.

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441760626' post='12284384']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1441760090' post='12284316']
See question in post #24 before someone's battleship gets sunk ...
[/quote]

Post # 28, second sentence.
[/quote]

Got it - I took your first statement as a generic ... so... in the downswing, the sooner the hands move out ( Snead/Hogan ), the more likely the swing will move left after impact.

[TB07]

[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1441761277' post='12284462']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441760626' post='12284384']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1441760090' post='12284316']
See question in post #24 before someone's battleship gets sunk ...
[/quote]

Post # 28, second sentence.
[/quote]

Got it - I took your first statement as a generic ... so... in the downswing, the sooner the hands move out ( Snead/Hogan ), the more likely the swing will move left after impact.
[/quote]

There is a down, out, and forward. Lots of different scenarios, but when the hands work straight down, with little to no out, the arm stays pinned and shaft steepens and club head kicks left. If the hands get too far out without enough down, as Rose was doing, you can't go left.

[ej002]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441759714' post='12284264']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441759335' post='12284202']
So now you are back talking about Tiger - although you never brought him up. I was clearly describing the move at 1:00:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZLN6KJkHfI&ebc=ANyPxKpZfku3EIYNQJiNaYEwnF2QooU91gmgiJl1aSUrFvQ6M3zR36ThU7FG1XLZZPynGQaTeDN3tzL4UpWm04xQ3_PjsBUjiA


Anyone can see that reading my posts. Hence the reason I mentioned p5 differences. And I am sure you knew that.
[/quote]

So now it's ok to talk about rehearsal swings? Lol.. You are too much!
[/quote]

The entire thread was about the Rose drill which you actually compared to Tiger - but the post is missing somwhere in the Bermuda triangle.

Tiger rehearsed that ott move with foley and became steep. I never saw him do the drill you just posted. It is fact that Tiger was steep with foley. Doing the Rose drill would have the opposite effect.

Yes it's relevant.

What's not relevant is asking me a pointed question about what is actually happening to shaft during a slow drill when there are no forces acting on the shaft while implying that is what happens in the actual swing.

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441762112' post='12284572']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441759714' post='12284264']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441759335' post='12284202']
So now you are back talking about Tiger - although you never brought him up. I was clearly describing the move at 1:00:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZLN6KJkHfI&ebc=ANyPxKpZfku3EIYNQJiNaYEwnF2QooU91gmgiJl1aSUrFvQ6M3zR36ThU7FG1XLZZPynGQaTeDN3tzL4UpWm04xQ3_PjsBUjiA


Anyone can see that reading my posts. Hence the reason I mentioned p5 differences. And I am sure you knew that.
[/quote]

So now it's ok to talk about rehearsal swings? Lol.. You are too much!
[/quote]

The entire thread was about the Rose drill which you actually compared to Tiger - but the post is missing somwhere in the Bermuda triangle.

Tiger rehearsed that ott move with foley and became steep. I never saw him do the drill you just posted. It is fact that Tiger was steep with foley. Doing the Rose drill would have the opposite effect.

Yes it's relevant.

What's not relevant is asking me a pointed question about what is actually happening to shaft during a slow drill when there are no forces acting on the shaft while implying that is what happens in the actual swing.
[/quote]

I'm sorry that you never saw Tiger rehearse that swing. Not my fault. I'll ask you again though, is that rehearsal of Tiger's much different from Rose? What force acts on the shaft when you pull the handle straight down?

[TB07]

And I didn't compare the Rose drill to Tiger. You brought up Tiger (among countless other off topic examples) and I responded.

[ej002]

Did you ever see him do the ott drill I posted? Before you say no - I will go through the forum and screenshot the threads where it was discussed. You knew that was what I was talking about the whole time.

The drill you showed and what Rose describes are indeed similar. Anyone would agree.

Don't project your goal posts on me - I been saying the same thing for 2 pages. Again - that rose move will not steepen the shaft without internal rotation of the shoulder. Again i said very early on that steepening in the Rose move would require another component.

[ksgolfcoach]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441761986' post='12284550']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1441761277' post='12284462']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441760626' post='12284384']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1441760090' post='12284316']
See question in post #24 before someone's battleship gets sunk ...
[/quote]

Post # 28, second sentence.
[/quote]

Got it - I took your first statement as a generic ... so... in the downswing, the sooner the hands move out ( Snead/Hogan ), the more likely the swing will move left after impact.
[/quote]

There is a down, out, and forward. Lots of different scenarios, but when the hands work straight down, with little to no out, the arm stays pinned and shaft steepens and CLUB HEAD KICKS LEFT. If the hands get too far out without enough down, as Rose was doing, you can't go left.
[/quote]

I've seen you post this a couple times and I'm confused. You keep saying if the left arm stays pinned the club head kicks left. What does that mean? I have few students who's arm stays pinned and too much shoulder rotation causes the club to kick out (don't know what you mean by left) early. None of them turn left through it. They all stop rotating, unhinge and attempt to not go steep and left. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're trying to say.

[TB07]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1441763020' post='12284706']
Did you ever see him do the ott drill I posted? Before you say no - I will go through the forum and screenshot the threads where it was discussed. You knew that was what I was talking about the whole time.

The drill you showed and what Rose describes are indeed similar. Anyone would agree.

Don't project your goal posts on me - I been saying the same thing for 2 pages. Again - that rose move will not steepen the shaft without internal rotation of the shoulder. Again i said very early on that steepening in the Rose move would require another component.
[/quote]

Of course, I've seen him do both. I've also seen Rose do his in person. As well as O'Hair. You are the one who wants to discuss forces on the shaft now. So answer this question, which you avoided once already, what force acts upon the shaft when you pull the handle straight down?

[TB07]

[quote name='ksgolfcoach' timestamp='1441763064' post='12284716']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441761986' post='12284550']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1441761277' post='12284462']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1441760626' post='12284384']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1441760090' post='12284316']
See question in post #24 before someone's battleship gets sunk ...
[/quote]

Post # 28, second sentence.
[/quote]

Got it - I took your first statement as a generic ... so... in the downswing, the sooner the hands move out ( Snead/Hogan ), the more likely the swing will move left after impact.
[/quote]

There is a down, out, and forward. Lots of different scenarios, but when the hands work straight down, with little to no out, the arm stays pinned and shaft steepens and CLUB HEAD KICKS LEFT. If the hands get too far out without enough down, as Rose was doing, you can't go left.
[/quote]

I've seen you post this a couple times and I'm confused. You keep saying if the left arm stays pinned the club head kicks left. What does that mean? I have few students who's arm stays pinned and too much shoulder rotation causes the club to kick out (don't know what you mean by left) early. None of them turn left through it. They all stop rotating, unhinge and attempt to not go steep and left. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're trying to say.
[/quote]

You are understanding. It's just none of those students would rehearse Rose's move. They are steep early. Rose is flat early. Rose just doesn't always exit left enough. He releases down the line and flips. So his exaggerated move, in my opinion, is to feel left with the body through impact and feel the club go left. Would only be able to do that if you are flat early and/or hands work too much out.

Does that make sense? I might not be explaining it to well, I'm doing 7 things at once including trying to watch Tin Cup!