Is Jordan Spieth the best long distance putter ever over his short career ?

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='Afraid2goLow' timestamp='1443550506' post='12385024']
[quote name='lawsonman' timestamp='1443550177' post='12384990']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1443547110' post='12384666']
So much nonsense in this thread. For the record Spieth was:

[url="http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.34046.jordan-spieth.html/statistics"]http://www.pgatour.c...html/statistics[/url]


4th in stokes gained tee to green.

8th in stokes gained putting at .572. Lee Westwood was actually ranked higher than Spieth at .598.
[/quote]

If you really think Westwood is a better putter than Spieth you need a better TV.
[/quote]

You guys seriously think rlynham was saying Westwood is a better putter? Haha he was trying to show how good Spieth is tee to green which no one gives him any credit for.

Sports fans and the general sports media only thinks this guy can putt and doesnt understand how good he actually is. Kind of shocking to see a people on a golf board like this think the same way because Spieth hits it 310 and not 335.
[/quote]No one is saying that Spieth isn't a quality ball striker, infact he is the best on tour from the rough and around the 200 yard range, but this thread is about his putting. And for the record he averages 290 off the tee, but of course that is average...and stats don't always tell the whole picture as stated before.

He is just a damn good player.

[rlynham]

LOL @ people with their anecdotal arguments.

Spieth ranked 52nd in putting inside 10 feet, 82nd from 10-15 feet.

Sure he putted great from distance. Inside 15 feet he really wasn't that good.

To me the strongest part of his game seems to be chipping/pitching. He ranked 4th in scrambling even though he wasn't that good on short putts.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1443553472' post='12385404']
LOL @ people with their anecdotal arguments.

Spieth ranked 52nd in putting inside 10 feet, 82nd from 10-15 feet.

Sure he putted great from distance. Inside 15 feet he really wasn't that good.

To me the strongest part of his game seems to be chipping/pitching. He ranked 4th in scrambling even though he wasn't that good on short putts.
[/quote]So by this rational having a short game that only gets the ball to 15 feet from the hole is better than 10 feet?

Seriously there are too many unknown factors here. Did the leaders play in majors where the greens and hole placements are tougher? Did Jordan putt better than anyone in 90% of his tournaments but had two or three bad rounds that blew his stats up? When you consider the difference between the number 1 player in this category and 52nd place is 2% it is almost statistically insignificant.

How many putts did Brendon Todd have to keep himself in contention for a major under real pressure?

I am not saying he is the best short putter on tour, he probably isn't, but the title of this thread is in regards to his long putting....so what really is your point to begin with?

[patrick421]

He has IT, whatever IT is he has it in spades. I don't need stats or any nonsense to confirm that. Scoring average and wins are my favorite stats the rest can be thrown out the window. Spieth just knows how to will the ball in the hole and that can't be taught just like other sports. Toews with the blackhawks has IT as well, same could be said for Tom Brady. None of these guys are the best at any one thing but add up all their talents and their "brain" for their respective sports and you get the best of the best and some of the best of all time.

[rlynham]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1443554957' post='12385610']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1443553472' post='12385404']
LOL @ people with their anecdotal arguments.

Spieth ranked 52nd in putting inside 10 feet, 82nd from 10-15 feet.

Sure he putted great from distance. Inside 15 feet he really wasn't that good.

To me the strongest part of his game seems to be chipping/pitching. He ranked 4th in scrambling even though he wasn't that good on short putts.
[/quote]So by this rational having a short game that only gets the ball to 15 feet from the hole is better than 10 feet?

Seriously there are too many unknown factors here. Did the leaders play in majors where the greens and hole placements are tougher? Did Jordan putt better than anyone in 90% of his tournaments but had two or three bad rounds that blew his stats up? When you consider the difference between the number 1 player in this category and 52nd place is 2% it is almost statistically insignificant.

How many putts did Brendon Todd have to keep himself in contention for a major under real pressure?

I am not saying he is the best short putter on tour, he probably isn't, but the title of this thread is in regards to his long putting....so what really is your point to begin with?
[/quote]

The thread is about putting, not the ability to handle pressure. That does remind me of a short putt on the Road Hole that he missed though.

Baddeley has been the best putter on tour this year and the best over the last few years in total. The title of the thread is obviously about long putting but when people are saying Spieth is the best putter on tour that is just wrong.

[TCWhite]

The best golfers are the ones who perform best under pressure. Many with great stats often crumble.

[Guia]

[b]
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/364579-rvausmc/"]RVAUSMC[/url]: This is off subject and of course the argument has been raised many times. I think that Tiger is the best to ever play the game because of the competition in his era is much tougher across the board. I am a Nicklaus fan (he is of my generation) but in his day he did not have to contend with 20 - 30 players who could win at any time. Not at any time in Jack's career were there a top ten like you see today.[/b]

[sheldonjhacker]

I'm switching to Left Hand Low !

[mredd07]

[quote name='nichho' timestamp='1443481539' post='12380774']
The thing is Tiger was an outstanding all round player ([b]best of all time[/b]) and while he was a phenomenal putter he was also phenomenal tee tee to green. Jordan Spieth is not phenomenal tee to green he is just very very good. His putting is beyond phenomenal, just ask Henrik Stenson.
People on here must have played against a really good putter at some time it is unnerving, it wears you down completely. In fact it is unnatural, I know I regularly play against one.
[/quote]


Fixed it for you!!!!

[Guia]

I hate those guys.

[RVAUSMC]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1443556551' post='12385756']

[b] [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/364579-rvausmc/"]RVAUSMC[/url]: This is off subject and of course the argument has been raised many times. I think that Tiger is the best to ever play the game because of the competition in his era is much tougher across the board. I am a Nicklaus fan (he is of my generation) but in his day he did not have to contend with 20 - 30 players who could win at any time. Not at any time in Jack's career were there a top ten like you see today.[/b]
[/quote]

Really...From Tiger: [color=#333333][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"He's the greatest champion that's ever lived," Woods said of Nicklaus after winning the Memorial in 2012.[/background][/color]
[color=#333333][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Not to mention the argument that the competition was stronger with Tiger, maybe in 2015, but not when Tiger was in his prime, he lapped fields, plus Tiger has had the advantage of equipment,etc.[/background][/color]
[color=#333333][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Again the bottom line 18 beats 14 every time, there is no debate. [/background][/color]

[bscinstnct]

RVAUSMC: This is off subject and of course the argument has been raised many times. I think that Tiger is the best to ever play the game because of the competition in his era is much tougher across the board. I am a Nicklaus fan (he is of my generation) but in his day he did not have to contend with 20 - 30 players who could win at any time. Not at any time in Jack's career were there a top ten like you see today.

 

Really...From Tiger: "He's the greatest champion that's ever lived," Woods said of Nicklaus after winning the Memorial in 2012.

Not to mention the argument that the competition was stronger with Tiger, maybe in 2015, but not when Tiger was in his prime, he lapped fields, plus Tiger has had the advantage of equipment,etc.

Again the bottom line 18 beats 14 every time, there is no debate.

 

 

 

 

 

"Tiger's better"-

 

 

[mredd07]

[quote name='RVAUSMC' timestamp='1443558333' post='12385972']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1443556551' post='12385756']
[b] [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/user/364579-rvausmc/"]RVAUSMC[/url]: This is off subject and of course the argument has been raised many times. I think that Tiger is the best to ever play the game because of the competition in his era is much tougher across the board. I am a Nicklaus fan (he is of my generation) but in his day he did not have to contend with 20 - 30 players who could win at any time. Not at any time in Jack's career were there a top ten like you see today.[/b]
[/quote]

Really...From Tiger: [color=#333333][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"He's the greatest champion that's ever lived," Woods said of Nicklaus after winning the Memorial in 2012.[/background][/color]
[color=#333333][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Not to mention the argument that the competition was stronger with Tiger, maybe in 2015, but not when Tiger was in his prime, he lapped fields, plus Tiger has had the advantage of equipment,etc.[/background][/color]
[color=#333333][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Again the bottom line 18 beats 14 every time, there is no debate. [/background][/color]
[/quote]


18 doesnt make jack better than tigers 14. 18 just means he won more against worse competition(IMO). Tiger had way better competition than jack. Tiger was just that much better than everybody. You can honestly make a great case that either one is the GOAT.

[rafal]

Rhetorical question: If 14>18 why then is Tiger still doing reps and traj's?

[nochct1]

And this thread is ruined.

[braincramp52]

Wow ! All of a sudden it's Tiger vs Jack. Didn't see that coming.

[Guia]

Okay, I hijacked this because of what was said about Jack and Tiger.

Back on subject. Yes, Spieth is definitely the best putter on the tour currently not only because he makes a lot of putts, but, because he does it while under pressure. I am also a big fan of Zack, he is a very good putter and may have the best wedge game on tour, he also is a fantastic pressure player.

[Shilgy]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1443554957' post='12385610']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1443553472' post='12385404']
LOL @ people with their anecdotal arguments.

Spieth ranked 52nd in putting inside 10 feet, 82nd from 10-15 feet.

Sure he putted great from distance. Inside 15 feet he really wasn't that good.

To me the strongest part of his game seems to be chipping/pitching. He ranked 4th in scrambling even though he wasn't that good on short putts.
[/quote]So by this rational having a short game that only gets the ball to 15 feet from the hole is better than 10 feet?

Seriously there are too many unknown factors here. Did the leaders play in majors where the greens and hole placements are tougher? Did Jordan putt better than anyone in 90% of his tournaments but had two or three bad rounds that blew his stats up? When you consider the difference between the number 1 player in this category and 52nd place is 2% it is almost statistically insignificant.

How many putts did Brendon Todd have to keep himself in contention for a major under real pressure?

I am not saying he is the best short putter on tour, he probably isn't, but the title of this thread is in regards to his long putting....so what really is your point to begin with?
[/quote]these stats do not mean Spieth is better from 15 feet than he is from 10. It only means compared to his peers he is ranked higher from 15 feet than he is from 10 feet. The stats are reasonable just different from the perception that many have of him. Too many think he is a short knocking, miss the green and get up and downing, great putter. Reality is he is better compared to his peers from tee to green than he is as a putter. However, he is elite in both categories.

[braincramp52]

1st on the tour with one putt greens and 2nd in 15-25 foot putts in a nice combination.

[neilc]

Cant you just count the number of feet that guys hole?

[Shilgy]

[quote name='neilc' timestamp='1443874427' post='12404550']
Cant you just count the number of feet that guys hole?
[/quote]that would be more dependent on ball striking stats.

[ebk]

To quote Bum Phillips when asked if Earl Campbell was in a class by himself (and which I think applies here as well): "I don't know if he's in a class by himself, but whatever class he's in, it sure don't take long to call the roll."

[YoungJedi]

[quote name='nichho' timestamp='1443481539' post='12380774']
The thing is Tiger was an outstanding all round player (2nd best of all time) and while he was a phenomenal putter he was also phenomenal tee tee to green. Jordan Spieth is not phenomenal tee to green he is just very very good. His putting is beyond phenomenal, just ask Henrik Stenson.
People on here must have played against a really good putter at some time it is unnerving, it wears you down completely. In fact it is unnatural, I know I regularly play against one.
[/quote]

Per the PGA tour stats, Spieth is a great All Around player...I would say being ranked in the top 14 of every aspect of Strokes Gained is pretty good...

Stats for the 2015 season.
http://everyshotcounts.com/blog/strokes-gained-at-the-tour-championship-spieth-wins-fifth-of-the-season/#more-919

Total Strokes Gained 2.5 (ranked 4th)
Driving Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 14th)
Approach Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 14th)
Short Game Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 3rd)
Putting Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 9th)

[YoungJedi]

[quote name='tjchamp' timestamp='1445387348' post='12484838']
[quote name='nichho' timestamp='1443481539' post='12380774']
The thing is Tiger was an outstanding all round player (2nd best of all time) and while he was a phenomenal putter he was also phenomenal tee tee to green. Jordan Spieth is not phenomenal tee to green he is just very very good. His putting is beyond phenomenal, just ask Henrik Stenson.
People on here must have played against a really good putter at some time it is unnerving, it wears you down completely. In fact it is unnatural, I know I regularly play against one.
[/quote]

Per the PGA tour stats, Spieth is a great All Around player...I would say being ranked in the top 14 of every aspect of Strokes Gained is pretty good...

Stats for the 2015 season.
[url="http://everyshotcounts.com/blog/strokes-gained-at-the-tour-championship-spieth-wins-fifth-of-the-season/#more-919"]http://everyshotcoun...eason/#more-919[/url]

Total Strokes Gained 2.5 (ranked 4th)
Driving Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 14th)
Approach Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 14th)
Short Game Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 3rd)
Putting Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 9th)
[/quote]

And For those of you who post its not measuring where they rank in fairways, greens, and total putts.....those measure nothing as it relates to how good someone is, or how they relate to their scores. Strokes Gained is the only effective stat to go by.

[YoungJedi]

[quote name='neilc' timestamp='1443874427' post='12404550']
Cant you just count the number of feet that guys hole?
[/quote]

no, because Spieth could miss all 18 greens and chip it to a foot each hole...18 putts. Does that mean he had a good putting day? No...

Strokes Gained Putting is the only effective stat to go by.

[nochct1]

[quote name='tjchamp' timestamp='1445387579' post='12484854']
[quote name='tjchamp' timestamp='1445387348' post='12484838']
[quote name='nichho' timestamp='1443481539' post='12380774']
The thing is Tiger was an outstanding all round player (2nd best of all time) and while he was a phenomenal putter he was also phenomenal tee tee to green. Jordan Spieth is not phenomenal tee to green he is just very very good. His putting is beyond phenomenal, just ask Henrik Stenson.
People on here must have played against a really good putter at some time it is unnerving, it wears you down completely. In fact it is unnatural, I know I regularly play against one.
[/quote]

Per the PGA tour stats, Spieth is a great All Around player...I would say being ranked in the top 14 of every aspect of Strokes Gained is pretty good...

Stats for the 2015 season.
[url="http://everyshotcounts.com/blog/strokes-gained-at-the-tour-championship-spieth-wins-fifth-of-the-season/#more-919"]http://everyshotcoun...eason/#more-919[/url]

Total Strokes Gained 2.5 (ranked 4th)
Driving Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 14th)
Approach Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 14th)
Short Game Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 3rd)
Putting Strokes Gained .6 (ranked 9th)
[/quote]

And For those of you who post its not measuring where they rank in fairways, greens, and total putts.....those measure nothing as it relates to how good someone is, or how they relate to their scores. Strokes Gained is the only effective stat to go by.
[/quote]

But I think it's ok to question whether it's sustainable. He holed out from off the green 16 times this year. He makes a good number of longer putts.
It is very difficult to keep that up. I don't know the stats, but my guess is that 16 hole outs is a lot. Of course he might start making more of the shorter putts.
But it's certainly worth discussing whether he will keep up those stats.

[vleisman]

Hi,
My first post, been lurking for a long time. IMO you can't say the greatest putter or long distance putter of all time. He may be the greatest at the moment, but there's no way he's the best ever. Maybe in 10 years time.
As I'm a South AFrican I'm biased. The greatest putter of all time (any distance) was Bobby Locke. So good he was banned from the US tour.

[url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Locke#Controversy_and_PGA_Tour_ban"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Locke#Controversy_and_PGA_Tour_ban[/url]

[Gautama]

It's almost like the stats can't capture "doing what needs to be done at the moment." It's like some mental ability to find a way to beat you on that day, that hole. There's just an amazing amount of right shot at the right time from him, I don't think it's always putting.

And good call on Locke, by all accounts best putter ever, and one of golf's most truly interesting stories

[CrabDaddy]

Any statistic is an incomplete representation of skill. Each situation is unique, so comparisons between players or eras are tenuous, really only serving as fodder for opinions rather than proving arguments.
The simplest things, like driver vs. 3 wood, affects who the stats say is the longest hitter.
As alluded to previously, each player doesn't play the same set of courses. Aaron Baddelly may be #1 in strokes gained putting, but did he play in any of the majors? If he did, how were his stats in those tournaments? Still #1?
(Looked it up - did not play in a major in '15)
Let's say Player A is deemed to be a so-so iron player, but great at draining 20-25ft putts, while Player B has a better proximity to the hole, but ranks low in 10-15 ft putts made. But, Player A consistently plays his approaches slightly away from the flag, making sure he has an uphill putt without much break, while B fires at the flag, often leaving himself with tricky sidehill putts and fast downhillers. You can see where reputations based on the statistics are, or could be, the opposite of their true skill.
The "eye test", in the case of comparing Tour players, can be just as valid as most statistics. If Baddelly or Westwood or whoever never make the first page of the leaderboard (i.e. - TV coverage), it's irrelevant how many bombs they drop to save par or bogey.
Bottom line: Jordan is an excellent putter and stands out even more at longer distances. If statistics confirm that, well... that's nice.

[Shilgy]

[quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445431643' post='12486650']
Any statistic is an incomplete representation of skill. Each situation is unique, so comparisons between players or eras are tenuous, really only serving as fodder for opinions rather than proving arguments.
The simplest things, like driver vs. 3 wood, affects who the stats say is the longest hitter.
As alluded to previously, each player doesn't play the same set of courses. Aaron Baddelly may be #1 in strokes gained putting, but did he play in any of the majors? If he did, how were his stats in those tournaments? Still #1?
(Looked it up - did not play in a major in '15)
Let's say Player A is deemed to be a so-so iron player, but great at draining 20-25ft putts, while Player B has a better proximity to the hole, but ranks low in 10-15 ft putts made. But, Player A consistently plays his approaches slightly away from the flag, making sure he has an uphill putt without much break, while B fires at the flag, often leaving himself with tricky sidehill putts and fast downhillers. You can see where reputations based on the statistics are, or could be, the opposite of their true skill.
The "eye test", in the case of comparing Tour players, can be just as valid as most statistics. If Baddelly or Westwood or whoever never make the first page of the leaderboard (i.e. - TV coverage), [b]it's irrelevant how many bombs they drop to save par or bogey[/b].
Bottom line: Jordan is an excellent putter and stands out even more at longer distances. If statistics confirm that, well... that's nice.
[/quote]I agree with you that when determining best player your point is valid. But a Baddeley can be the best putter on tour. And has been at or very near the top year after year. The rest of his game is not nearly as good as the other top players but that does not change the fact he is a better putter that Jordan for instance. To the bold it is not irrelevant if the ONLY topic is who is the best at one small skill set on tour.