Is Jordan Spieth the best long distance putter ever over his short career ?

bladehunter · October 21, 2015

I don't know how to properly quantitate who is the best..BUT I can tell you who I would bet money on 1st to make one when its a must... Spieth hands down would be my pick..... He is easily the most clutch putter I remember seeing ... him and Tiger in his prime... either of these guys is a 100% guarantee they will scare the hole to death when in contention from any distance....

CrabDaddy · October 21, 2015

[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445440621' post='12487290'][quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445431643' post='12486650']
Any statistic is an incomplete representation of skill. Each situation is unique, so comparisons between players or eras are tenuous, really only serving as fodder for opinions rather than proving arguments.
The simplest things, like driver vs. 3 wood, affects who the stats say is the longest hitter.
As alluded to previously, each player doesn't play the same set of courses. Aaron Baddelly may be #1 in strokes gained putting, but did he play in any of the majors? If he did, how were his stats in those tournaments? Still #1?
(Looked it up - did not play in a major in '15)
Let's say Player A is deemed to be a so-so iron player, but great at draining 20-25ft putts, while Player B has a better proximity to the hole, but ranks low in 10-15 ft putts made. But, Player A consistently plays his approaches slightly away from the flag, making sure he has an uphill putt without much break, while B fires at the flag, often leaving himself with tricky sidehill putts and fast downhillers. You can see where reputations based on the statistics are, or could be, the opposite of their true skill.
The "eye test", in the case of comparing Tour players, can be just as valid as most statistics. If Baddelly or Westwood or whoever never make the first page of the leaderboard (i.e. - TV coverage), [b]it's irrelevant how many bombs they drop to save par or bogey[/b].
Bottom line: Jordan is an excellent putter and stands out even more at longer distances. If statistics confirm that, well... that's nice.
[/quote]I agree with you that when determining best player your point is valid. But a Baddeley can be the best putter on tour. And has been at or very near the top year after year. The rest of his game is not nearly as good as the other top players but that does not change the fact he is a better putter that Jordan for instance. To the bold it is not irrelevant if the ONLY topic is who is the best at one small skill set on tour.[/quote]
How do you know he's a better putter? How do their performances compare when playing the same tournaments?
I cede your point about the relevance of certain players being good putters when that's all we're talking about. However, my statement was based on two things: 1. A 20' putt for birdie on Thursday morning is different than the same putt for par late on Sunday afternoon, 2. Being the best putter doesn't mean much if you can't put it to good use (i.e. - the rest of your game leaves you scratching for your tour card). Hank Kuehne was easily the longest guy on tour, but only had a brief career because the rest of his game was not solid enough. I wouldn't put him in the argument about who the best drivers were. If you're not in contention, you lose relevance (perhaps not entirely because AB is still on Tour), even if the topic is a narrowly defined skill set.
We could go on and on, but just search for a Moe Norman thread and substitute AB where it says Moe, JS where it says Ben Hogan, and 'putting' where it says 'ball striking', LOL!!! The heavy lifting has already been done, ha!

Gautama · October 21, 2015

Thought this was kind of interesting and relevant, Spieth apparently has a 1,000-putt practice regime. Haven't looked up the stats for Spieth he shows at the beginning yet, interesting though

http://youtu.be/iW1uwosPjDw

Shilgy · October 21, 2015

[quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445458099' post='12488464']
[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445440621' post='12487290'][quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445431643' post='12486650']
Any statistic is an incomplete representation of skill. Each situation is unique, so comparisons between players or eras are tenuous, really only serving as fodder for opinions rather than proving arguments.
The simplest things, like driver vs. 3 wood, affects who the stats say is the longest hitter.
As alluded to previously, each player doesn't play the same set of courses. Aaron Baddelly may be #1 in strokes gained putting, but did he play in any of the majors? If he did, how were his stats in those tournaments? Still #1?
(Looked it up - did not play in a major in '15)
Let's say Player A is deemed to be a so-so iron player, but great at draining 20-25ft putts, while Player B has a better proximity to the hole, but ranks low in 10-15 ft putts made. But, Player A consistently plays his approaches slightly away from the flag, making sure he has an uphill putt without much break, while B fires at the flag, often leaving himself with tricky sidehill putts and fast downhillers. You can see where reputations based on the statistics are, or could be, the opposite of their true skill.
The "eye test", in the case of comparing Tour players, can be just as valid as most statistics. If Baddelly or Westwood or whoever never make the first page of the leaderboard (i.e. - TV coverage), [b]it's irrelevant how many bombs they drop to save par or bogey[/b].
Bottom line: Jordan is an excellent putter and stands out even more at longer distances. If statistics confirm that, well... that's nice.
[/quote]I agree with you that when determining best player your point is valid. But a Baddeley can be the best putter on tour. And has been at or very near the top year after year. The rest of his game is not nearly as good as the other top players but that does not change the fact he is a better putter that Jordan for instance. To the bold it is not irrelevant if the ONLY topic is who is the best at one small skill set on tour.[/quote]
How do you know he's a better putter? How do their performances compare when playing the same tournaments?
I cede your point about the relevance of certain players being good putters when that's all we're talking about. However, my statement was based on two things: 1. A 20' putt for birdie on Thursday morning is different than the same putt for par late on Sunday afternoon, 2. Being the best putter doesn't mean much if you can't put it to good use (i.e. - the rest of your game leaves you scratching for your tour card). Hank Kuehne was easily the longest guy on tour, but only had a brief career because the rest of his game was not solid enough. I wouldn't put him in the argument about who the best drivers were. If you're not in contention, you lose relevance (perhaps not entirely because AB is still on Tour), even if the topic is a narrowly defined skill set.
We could go on and on, but just search for a Moe Norman thread and substitute AB where it says Moe, JS where it says Ben Hogan, and 'putting' where it says 'ball striking', LOL!!! The heavy lifting has already been done, ha!
[/quote]I understand what you are saying but in the end the strokes gained stat is the best measurement we have at the moment. Let's put it this way. If Spieth was just an average putter he would still be a decent player on tour because his ball striking tee to green is so good. Baddeley was over a stroke per round [u]worse [/u] than average last year but still made 13 cuts. No-he was not putting for wins but trying to save your livelihood can be difficult as well. In the past 11 years-yes I got lazy and stopped there- Baddeley was worse than 15th just once in putting.. Seven of eleven years he was in the top 10. Spieth's three years on tour he was 8th-20th-60th. IMO that is solid of Badds.

CrabDaddy · October 21, 2015

[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445466705' post='12489224'][quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445458099' post='12488464']
[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445440621' post='12487290'][quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445431643' post='12486650']
Any statistic is an incomplete representation of skill. Each situation is unique, so comparisons between players or eras are tenuous, really only serving as fodder for opinions rather than proving arguments.
The simplest things, like driver vs. 3 wood, affects who the stats say is the longest hitter.
As alluded to previously, each player doesn't play the same set of courses. Aaron Baddelly may be #1 in strokes gained putting, but did he play in any of the majors? If he did, how were his stats in those tournaments? Still #1?
(Looked it up - did not play in a major in '15)
Let's say Player A is deemed to be a so-so iron player, but great at draining 20-25ft putts, while Player B has a better proximity to the hole, but ranks low in 10-15 ft putts made. But, Player A consistently plays his approaches slightly away from the flag, making sure he has an uphill putt without much break, while B fires at the flag, often leaving himself with tricky sidehill putts and fast downhillers. You can see where reputations based on the statistics are, or could be, the opposite of their true skill.
The "eye test", in the case of comparing Tour players, can be just as valid as most statistics. If Baddelly or Westwood or whoever never make the first page of the leaderboard (i.e. - TV coverage), [b]it's irrelevant how many bombs they drop to save par or bogey[/b].
Bottom line: Jordan is an excellent putter and stands out even more at longer distances. If statistics confirm that, well... that's nice.
[/quote]I agree with you that when determining best player your point is valid. But a Baddeley can be the best putter on tour. And has been at or very near the top year after year. The rest of his game is not nearly as good as the other top players but that does not change the fact he is a better putter that Jordan for instance. To the bold it is not irrelevant if the ONLY topic is who is the best at one small skill set on tour.[/quote]
How do you know he's a better putter? How do their performances compare when playing the same tournaments?
I cede your point about the relevance of certain players being good putters when that's all we're talking about. However, my statement was based on two things: 1. A 20' putt for birdie on Thursday morning is different than the same putt for par late on Sunday afternoon, 2. Being the best putter doesn't mean much if you can't put it to good use (i.e. - the rest of your game leaves you scratching for your tour card). Hank Kuehne was easily the longest guy on tour, but only had a brief career because the rest of his game was not solid enough. I wouldn't put him in the argument about who the best drivers were. If you're not in contention, you lose relevance (perhaps not entirely because AB is still on Tour), even if the topic is a narrowly defined skill set.
We could go on and on, but just search for a Moe Norman thread and substitute AB where it says Moe, JS where it says Ben Hogan, and 'putting' where it says 'ball striking', LOL!!! The heavy lifting has already been done, ha!
[/quote]I understand what you are saying but in the end the strokes gained stat is the best measurement we have at the moment. Let's put it this way. If Spieth was just an average putter he would still be a decent player on tour because his ball striking tee to green is so good. Baddeley was over a stroke per round [u]worse [/u] than average last year but still made 13 cuts. No-he was not putting for wins but trying to save your livelihood can be difficult as well. In the past 11 years-yes I got lazy and stopped there- Baddeley was worse than 15th just once in putting.. Seven of eleven years he was in the top 10. Spieth's three years on tour he was 8th-20th-60th. IMO that is solid of Badds.[/quote]
I have to reference my first post, and say that strokes gained is still a very imperfect comparison. Strokes gained at the Barbasol Championship is not the same as strokes gained at St. Andrews.
I'm not trying to say Baddely isn't a first rate putter, and he could very well be better than Spieth. The consistency you point out is probably the best indicator of how good he is. But, we can't draw a conclusion of who is better based on season-long statistics - they are not direct comparisons. What if Dustin Johnson was ahead of JS in strokes gained putting. Would anybody argue that DJ was a better putter, after the 72nd hole at Chambers Bay? (If I remember correctly, I think he may have been leading in strokes gained putting for the tournament at one point).
And, you make good points about Baddely's putting overcoming other weaknesses in his game and the importance to him of making cuts.

Shilgy · October 22, 2015

[quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445482721' post='12490342']
[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445466705' post='12489224'][quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445458099' post='12488464']
[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445440621' post='12487290'][quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445431643' post='12486650']
Any statistic is an incomplete representation of skill. Each situation is unique, so comparisons between players or eras are tenuous, really only serving as fodder for opinions rather than proving arguments.
The simplest things, like driver vs. 3 wood, affects who the stats say is the longest hitter.
As alluded to previously, each player doesn't play the same set of courses. Aaron Baddelly may be #1 in strokes gained putting, but did he play in any of the majors? If he did, how were his stats in those tournaments? Still #1?
(Looked it up - did not play in a major in '15)
Let's say Player A is deemed to be a so-so iron player, but great at draining 20-25ft putts, while Player B has a better proximity to the hole, but ranks low in 10-15 ft putts made. But, Player A consistently plays his approaches slightly away from the flag, making sure he has an uphill putt without much break, while B fires at the flag, often leaving himself with tricky sidehill putts and fast downhillers. You can see where reputations based on the statistics are, or could be, the opposite of their true skill.
The "eye test", in the case of comparing Tour players, can be just as valid as most statistics. If Baddelly or Westwood or whoever never make the first page of the leaderboard (i.e. - TV coverage), [b]it's irrelevant how many bombs they drop to save par or bogey[/b].
Bottom line: Jordan is an excellent putter and stands out even more at longer distances. If statistics confirm that, well... that's nice.
[/quote]I agree with you that when determining best player your point is valid. But a Baddeley can be the best putter on tour. And has been at or very near the top year after year. The rest of his game is not nearly as good as the other top players but that does not change the fact he is a better putter that Jordan for instance. To the bold it is not irrelevant if the ONLY topic is who is the best at one small skill set on tour.[/quote]
How do you know he's a better putter? How do their performances compare when playing the same tournaments?
I cede your point about the relevance of certain players being good putters when that's all we're talking about. However, my statement was based on two things: 1. A 20' putt for birdie on Thursday morning is different than the same putt for par late on Sunday afternoon, 2. Being the best putter doesn't mean much if you can't put it to good use (i.e. - the rest of your game leaves you scratching for your tour card). Hank Kuehne was easily the longest guy on tour, but only had a brief career because the rest of his game was not solid enough. I wouldn't put him in the argument about who the best drivers were. If you're not in contention, you lose relevance (perhaps not entirely because AB is still on Tour), even if the topic is a narrowly defined skill set.
We could go on and on, but just search for a Moe Norman thread and substitute AB where it says Moe, JS where it says Ben Hogan, and 'putting' where it says 'ball striking', LOL!!! The heavy lifting has already been done, ha!
[/quote]I understand what you are saying but in the end the strokes gained stat is the best measurement we have at the moment. Let's put it this way. If Spieth was just an average putter he would still be a decent player on tour because his ball striking tee to green is so good. Baddeley was over a stroke per round [u]worse [/u] than average last year but still made 13 cuts. No-he was not putting for wins but trying to save your livelihood can be difficult as well. In the past 11 years-yes I got lazy and stopped there- Baddeley was worse than 15th just once in putting.. Seven of eleven years he was in the top 10. Spieth's three years on tour he was 8th-20th-60th. IMO that is solid of Badds.[/quote]
I have to reference my first post, and say that strokes gained is still a very imperfect comparison. Strokes gained at the Barbasol Championship is not the same as strokes gained at St. Andrews.
I'm not trying to say Baddely isn't a first rate putter, and he could very well be better than Spieth. The consistency you point out is probably the best indicator of how good he is. But, we can't draw a conclusion of who is better based on season-long statistics - they are not direct comparisons. What if Dustin Johnson was ahead of JS in strokes gained putting. Would anybody argue that DJ was a better putter, after the 72nd hole at Chambers Bay? (If I remember correctly, I think he may have been leading in strokes gained putting for the tournament at one point).
And, you make good points about Baddely's putting overcoming other weaknesses in his game and the importance to him of making cuts.
[/quote]IF..and it is a big IF anyone argued DJ was a better putter why would one hole destroy that? We all seem to agree, both by the numbers and the visual test, that Spieth is a wonderful ball striker. But did he not royally screw up, was it 16 or 17, at Chambers Bay in the last round? One swing does not undo a season or career.

CrabDaddy · October 22, 2015

[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445528831' post='12492084'][quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445482721' post='12490342']
[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445466705' post='12489224'][quote name='CrabDaddy' timestamp='1445458099' post='12488464']
[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1445440621' post='12487290']I agree with you that when determining best player your point is valid. But a Baddeley can be the best putter on tour. And has been at or very near the top year after year. The rest of his game is not nearly as good as the other top players but that does not change the fact he is a better putter that Jordan for instance. To the bold it is not irrelevant if the ONLY topic is who is the best at one small skill set on tour.[/quote]
How do you know he's a better putter? How do their performances compare when playing the same tournaments?
I cede your point about the relevance of certain players being good putters when that's all we're talking about. However, my statement was based on two things: 1. A 20' putt for birdie on Thursday morning is different than the same putt for par late on Sunday afternoon, 2. Being the best putter doesn't mean much if you can't put it to good use (i.e. - the rest of your game leaves you scratching for your tour card). Hank Kuehne was easily the longest guy on tour, but only had a brief career because the rest of his game was not solid enough. I wouldn't put him in the argument about who the best drivers were. If you're not in contention, you lose relevance (perhaps not entirely because AB is still on Tour), even if the topic is a narrowly defined skill set.
We could go on and on, but just search for a Moe Norman thread and substitute AB where it says Moe, JS where it says Ben Hogan, and 'putting' where it says 'ball striking', LOL!!! The heavy lifting has already been done, ha!
[/quote]I understand what you are saying but in the end the strokes gained stat is the best measurement we have at the moment. Let's put it this way. If Spieth was just an average putter he would still be a decent player on tour because his ball striking tee to green is so good. Baddeley was over a stroke per round [u]worse [/u] than average last year but still made 13 cuts. No-he was not putting for wins but trying to save your livelihood can be difficult as well. In the past 11 years-yes I got lazy and stopped there- Baddeley was worse than 15th just once in putting.. Seven of eleven years he was in the top 10. Spieth's three years on tour he was 8th-20th-60th. IMO that is solid of Badds.[/quote]
I have to reference my first post, and say that strokes gained is still a very imperfect comparison. Strokes gained at the Barbasol Championship is not the same as strokes gained at St. Andrews.
I'm not trying to say Baddely isn't a first rate putter, and he could very well be better than Spieth. The consistency you point out is probably the best indicator of how good he is. But, we can't draw a conclusion of who is better based on season-long statistics - they are not direct comparisons. What if Dustin Johnson was ahead of JS in strokes gained putting. Would anybody argue that DJ was a better putter, after the 72nd hole at Chambers Bay? (If I remember correctly, I think he may have been leading in strokes gained putting for the tournament at one point).
And, you make good points about Baddely's putting overcoming other weaknesses in his game and the importance to him of making cuts.
[/quote]IF..and it is a big IF anyone argued DJ was a better putter why would one hole destroy that? We all seem to agree, both by the numbers and the visual test, that Spieth is a wonderful ball striker. But did he not royally screw up, was it 16 or 17, at Chambers Bay in the last round? One swing does not undo a season or career.[/quote]
LOL - tell that to DJ! I'm not saying anyone took the position that DJ was a better putter. But, if the statistics said he was, would it prove anything?
One swing may not undo what has already been accomplished, but one swing can be the difference between the success or failure of what is at hand.
Yes, JS missed a putt everyone thought he should have made on 17 ...right after making a long birdie putt on 16 (I think that's how it went). The overall point is that Spieth makes a much better than average number of difficult putts in pressure situations, and statistics may or may not capture how good he is.

Shilgy · October 23, 2015

^^

LOL - tell that to DJ! I'm not saying anyone took the position that DJ was a better putter. But, if the statistics said he was, would it prove anything?

One swing may not undo what has already been accomplished, but one swing can be the difference between the success or failure of what is at hand.

Yes, JS missed a putt everyone thought he should have made on 17 ...right after making a long birdie putt on 16 (I think that's how it went). The overall point is that Spieth makes a much better than average number of difficult putts in pressure situations, and statistics may or may not capture how good he is.

Stats don't lie on average. Perception lies. Hogan played so good at Carnoustie he never missed a fairway. What a performance!