Iron forgiveness overrated? Part 2

[braincramp52]

Last week Sean2 started a thread about forgiveness being overrated by manufacturers. There was quite a spirited debate about it. I was on the side that thought there really isn't as big of a difference in the forgiveness of irons as everyone tries to make you think. so over the last 10 days or so I decided to try a little experiment. I recently got a set of Titleist 695MB's from a fellow wrx'er. I have played TM SLDR irons all season. I realize this is a small sampling of golf but it's all I got. By the way, I'm a 63 year old 12 handicap short hitter who doesn't play anything lower than a 6 iron. After 3 nine hole rounds with the blades I had scores of 43, 45 and 41. I put my SLDR's back in the bag and had a 44, 42, and a 45.

 

That's enough proof to me that I can play any damn iron I want to and my golfing world won't crash down all around me. Now, forgiveness factor in Drivers, fairway woods and hybrids is a different story.

 

Just my .02.

[jasonp87]

As I'm in the market for new irons I can agree partially. Having tested a few. Being a 20hcp I've hit SGI GI Player Irons and Blades. I definitely agree forgiveness is overrated to a degree.

Hitting SGI clubs is a waste IMO unless you golf less then once a month this category makes no sense. Almost a detriment

GI/player clubs. I think this is where people get confused as to forgiveness. I think people expect forgiveness to make every shot go wherever they want. I think people forget that forgiveness is basically the brands way to minimize off centre hits (can't stop it going from offline etc) but minimize distance loss. This I do notice a difference. Having tried numerous irons some do not punish you as bad for Mishits (with an avg of 5y lost such as the RSI from TMAG) but you may give up feel. To get that.

Blades are not forgiving at all Mishits punish hard however I instantly new every time I didn't make perfect contact(which is a decent amount to not warrant blades)

So yes forgiveness won't make a good golfer better per say (depends what's holding him/her back) but I think it can help the mid handicapper at a cost tho.

It's my current dilemma debating between three sets of clubs

The RSI2 are definetly the straightest most forgiving Mishits I lose about 4-8yrds Max. And they keep their line well. I can feel Mishits but not as easily. Overall good distance 7i goes 145on Mishits 155+ on flush

Callaway Apex feel best when flushed. Longest when flushed too Tons of feedback lose 10-15yrds on Mishits and sometimes I slice/push em hard. 7i is 155-160 flushed but 135-140mishit

Cobra FlyZ+ somewhere in between the two the shortest even when flushed but when Mishits slightly better then apex but worse then rsi2. However Cobras provide most feedback and are he shortest (partially due to their lofts) 7i is about 135-140 flush and 125-130mishit

Therein lies my dilemma. The obvious choice is the rsi2 and I do like them. However am I hindering myself by getting them? Would the apex or FlyZ+ be better once dialled in? Distance does matter for me cuz I am not a long hitter.

My .02

[Volgolfer]

Couldn't agree more. The "forgiveness factor" scared me to death when considering replacing my 15 year old Ping Eye-2's. At the time, Mizuno had just come out with the MP-60 and MP-32. Loved the way the 32's looked, but feared I couldn't hit them because they were a "blade" - translated as not forgiving. So I bought the MP-60's. Don't get me wrong, they were GREAT, but I still had that smoldering love for the '32's. So two years later I bought the 32's and low and behold, they we just as "forgiving" as the 60's. Haven't looked back since.

[ph00ny]

Honestly the mishits arent that bad on my 681T maybe within 10yard of where im hitting in terms dispersion front to back and same goes for side to side

Just to give you guys some background. Ive had the 681Ts since the day it came out. After college, i just didnt have the time to play golf and didnt play golf for just under 9 years other than once in a blue moon range session with friends. I was a near scratch golfer with a poor game management then and on my first outing after 9 years, I shot 81 from the back tees.

Now during the time away from the game hybrids took over the market. Ive tried to like them but i just cant hit them. Im still hitting 2 iron off the deck and from the tee and it just works for me.

My game just isnt what it used to be but i cant hit anything but blades or very blade like clubs. I know that it's just a mental block but confidence level goes long ways in golf imo. Ive tried handful of clubs that would better suit my game but i just cant hit them. XR pro, AP2, etc.

It could be the thin top line or the swing weight but i dont have the same issue with drivers.

[fairwaysRoverated]

I think the place it makes the biggest difference is launch angle for long irons, thin shots, and toe shots. 6 iron to pw I don't think you'll see much difference.

[Nessism]

[quote name='lawsonman' timestamp='1446733006' post='12556210']
After 3 nine hole rounds with the blades I had scores of 43, 45 and 41. I put my SLDR's back in the bag and had a 44, 42, and a 45.

That's enough proof to me that I can play any damn iron I want to and my golfing world won't crash down all around me. Now, forgiveness factor in Drivers, fairway woods and hybrids is a different story.

Just my .02.
[/quote]

This is a great example of why these discussions are flawed and why that other thread got locked. You played a total of 27 holes and now think you have evidence supporting a reasoned decision as to what irons you should be playing? I'm flummoxed.

Simple reality is that the difficulty factor in properly striking an iron increases as the length of said iron increases and the loft decreases. In other words, the difference is magnified in the long irons. Some people play courses where they hardly ever have to hit long irons, so in that instance their iron selection choice is less critical than someone that does. Does that mean that forgiveness in irons is overrated or not important? Hardly.

[PinonMagnolia]

Forgiveness isn't overrated. I am saved at least a couple of shots per round because I play more forgiving clubs. I know that because I know where I'm hitting the ball and how it'd fly with less forgiving clubs.

[yellolab]

If I recall correctly, years ago Golf(or Digest) did a write up where they tested the distance loss of various clubs- it's forgiveness. Don't exactly remember the results, but I think it was once you got away from blades, the distance loss due to mishits between irons was minimal.

[KYMAR]

It's amazing how the specific and narrow definition of forgiveness is completely lost on so many who spend so much time on a golf forum.

[Ripken08]

Having playing every type of iron possible (Hogan blades to Ping Raptures), I can draw two conclusions:

1) Perimeter weighting DOES make off center hits go farther in a GI vs player CB/pure muscleback. The year to year hype is where people get befuddled. Talking about this years AP1 vs last years etc. Minimal difference from generation to generation of the same iron. But GI vs non-GI, there IS a difference.

2) Bogey golfers and higher won't see any difference in score regardless of the type of iron they play, particularly when they don't play the longer irons (OP fits this). Lack of semi-consistent striking will make all clubs play the same. Now as I have gotten better, I am starting to see the benefits of a GI iron more and more. The slight mishits don't cost me as much as a non-GI club. Sometimes I think GI clubs are marketed to the wrong demographic as better improving players (low 80/high 70) will see more benefit from them. The weekend high HC hacker expects the clubs to work miracles and will shoot the same score with any club.

[DTXgolfer12]

[quote name='lawsonman' timestamp='1446733006' post='12556210']
Last week Sean2 started a thread about forgiveness being overrated by manufacturers. There was quite a spirited debate about it. I was on the side that thought there really isn't as big of a difference in the forgiveness of irons as everyone tries to make you think. so over the last 10 days or so I decided to try a little experiment. I recently got a set of Titleist 695MB's from a fellow wrx'er. I have played TM SLDR irons all season. I realize this is a small sampling of golf but it's all I got. By the way, I'm a 63 year old 12 handicap short hitter who doesn't play anything lower than a 6 iron. After 3 nine hole rounds with the blades I had scores of 43, 45 and 41. I put my SLDR's back in the bag and had a 44, 42, and a 45.

That's enough proof to me that I can play any damn iron I want to and my golfing world won't crash down all around me. Now, forgiveness factor in Drivers, fairway woods and hybrids is a different story.

Just my .02.
[/quote]

I just started playing blades last year...my handicap was never lower than a 3 before then. Look at it now. Coincidence? Maybe you should ask bigfoot

[braincramp52]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1446736577' post='12556468']
[quote name='lawsonman' timestamp='1446733006' post='12556210']
After 3 nine hole rounds with the blades I had scores of 43, 45 and 41. I put my SLDR's back in the bag and had a 44, 42, and a 45.

That's enough proof to me that I can play any damn iron I want to and my golfing world won't crash down all around me. Now, forgiveness factor in Drivers, fairway woods and hybrids is a different story.

Just my .02.
[/quote]

This is a great example of why these discussions are flawed and why that other thread got locked. You played a total of 27 holes and now think you have evidence supporting a reasoned decision as to what irons you should be playing? I'm flummoxed.

Simple reality is that the difficulty factory in properly striking an iron increases as the length of said iron increases and the loft decreases. In other words, the difference is magnified in the long irons. Some people play courses where they hardly ever have to hit long irons, so in that instance their iron selection choice is less critical than someone what does. Does that mean that forgiveness in irons is overrated or not important? Hardly. But it may not matter for that particular person playing on that particular course.
[/quote]

Actually I played blades for a couple of years prior to this with similar results.

[ktbo]

Everyone on Golfwrx are pros and you all should play blades. Who needs forgiveness with the talent level of the guys on here?

[braincramp52]

[quote name='ktbo' timestamp='1446739703' post='12556724']Everyone on Golfwrx are pros and you all should play blades. Who needs forgiveness with the talent level of the guys on here? �[/quote]

Nothing in my game resembles a pro. :-)

[square]

[quote name='lawsonman' timestamp='1446733006' post='12556210']
Last week Sean2 started a thread about forgiveness being overrated by manufacturers. There was quite a spirited debate about it. I was on the side that thought there really isn't as big of a difference in the forgiveness of irons as everyone tries to make you think. so over the last 10 days or so I decided to try a little experiment. I recently got a set of Titleist 695MB's from a fellow wrx'er. I have played TM SLDR irons all season. I realize this is a small sampling of golf but it's all I got. By the way, I'm a 63 year old 12 handicap short hitter who doesn't play anything lower than a 6 iron. After 3 nine hole rounds with the blades I had scores of 43, 45 and 41. I put my SLDR's back in the bag and had a 44, 42, and a 45.

That's enough proof to me that I can play any damn iron I want to and my golfing world won't crash down all around me. Now, forgiveness factor in Drivers, fairway woods and hybrids is a different story.

Just my .02.
[/quote]

Iron "forgiveness" is more than overrated. The marketing efforts to sell over sized irons are misleading. For the consumer today's "forgiving, game improvement " irons are actually counter productive.
Specifically, the over sized heads are harder to square at impact, especially of sloped, grassy, hard pan, or other less than ideal lies.
I am reasonably certain that most of the 80's and 90's average players here who currently play oversized irons would strike their iron shots consistently better if they played a traditional sized iron head, such as the Titleist CB model.

[chippa13]

I forget, is this where Bill Murray steps in the puddle?

[Mtngolfer1]

I am of the mindset play what appeals to your eye. If a thin top line and thin sole is what you desire play that iron , if a thicker topline and a wider sole inspires confidence for you by all means play that iron.

I believe another post stated something towards confidence goes a long way in this game and I agree. I took up the game back in the early 90's playing Ping eye 2s very untraditional looking at the time and I remember playing partners calling them gardening tools with a big price tag, today they are considered a all time favorite classic. I then moved on to some Titleist 962s , Then Titleist 990s then the Titleist 731PM with some Hogan Apex Plus mixed in somewhere and Ping I3+ , I5s and Callaway X Tour, and now still playing some Ping S58s. I have demoed some Ping G25s, G30s among other brands recently during my iron hunt and other "game improvement irons over the years, but my mind's eye has always taken me to a more traditional looking iron, however the squared look of the I series Pings has always appealed to me, but some/many would consider then shovels . The new Ping I and Titleist 714 A2 have my attention because both appeal to me as far as looks/performance. Thinner top lines with not too thick soles.

I was once a single digit handicap, jumped between a 5-8 for nearly a decade before career and then marriage took priority. I am down to a 11 now but have been as high as a 16 in recent years. I would say the biggest difference in my scores starts off the tee and then on the green putting. If I can drive the ball in the fairway and hit the green in regulation I am going to have good day with two putts at the hole. My iron game has been the consistent over the years, Hybrids, 460cc Drivers, and now Super-Stroke 3.0 putter grips..LOL have been the Band-Aids that have kept me from embarrassing myself too much on the golf course.

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1446741997' post='12556880']
[quote name='lawsonman' timestamp='1446733006' post='12556210']
Last week Sean2 started a thread about forgiveness being overrated by manufacturers. There was quite a spirited debate about it. I was on the side that thought there really isn't as big of a difference in the forgiveness of irons as everyone tries to make you think. so over the last 10 days or so I decided to try a little experiment. I recently got a set of Titleist 695MB's from a fellow wrx'er. I have played TM SLDR irons all season. I realize this is a small sampling of golf but it's all I got. By the way, I'm a 63 year old 12 handicap short hitter who doesn't play anything lower than a 6 iron. After 3 nine hole rounds with the blades I had scores of 43, 45 and 41. I put my SLDR's back in the bag and had a 44, 42, and a 45.

That's enough proof to me that I can play any damn iron I want to and my golfing world won't crash down all around me. Now, forgiveness factor in Drivers, fairway woods and hybrids is a different story.

Just my .02.
[/quote]

Iron "forgiveness" is more than overrated. The marketing efforts to sell over sized irons are misleading. For the consumer today's "forgiving, game improvement " irons are actually counter productive.
Specifically, the over sized heads are harder to square at impact, especially of sloped, grassy, hard pan, or other less than ideal lies.
I am reasonably certain that most of the 80's and 90's average players here who currently play oversized irons would strike their iron shots consistently better if they played a traditional sized iron head, such as the Titleist CB model.
[/quote]I agree that forgiveness is overrated however not in terms of the specific needs of some golfers... there are those that need to look at the larger head and longer blade length to install confidence... just like the opposite where some golfers feel they need to look at a smaller more compact head as it forces them to concentrate more on the swing.
I also agree that the average player could be successful with a wider range of clubs than just the ones stated for their handicap. However GI's and even SGI's have their place in the game.
We look at handicap as the deciding factor however an average score of all facets of the game does not necessarily equate to a players ability in this case... with an iron. There are more factors in play here than just a number... as stated earlier, golfers really have handicaps within their overall handicap that really defines their level of play in that area. Another factor in equating forgiveness to handicap is age and the trend that is currently occurring in one's game. Are they young and enthusiastic in improving? Are they in the later years of life and just want to enjoy the game and the time spent with others? Do they have the ability to physically change their swing is another factor not really discussed. Unfortunately we are not all in the same situation.
Manufacturers use terms like "forgiveness" to sell product without a doubt. Its really up to each golfer to determine how much of it they actually need and unfortunately there are a lot of conflicting answers out there that are not helping the situation... Manufacturers preach this forgiveness factor... Salesmen try to sell you on what you need based on what they like and what they need to move out of the store (not all of course)... Simulators get boosts added ( i have seen this first hand in an attempt to help pad numbers of golfers to help move product out of the store )... And buddies try to sell you on what they are hitting farther and straighter than ever... then there is GolfWRX where everyone knows everything... this includes me as well folks... guilty as charged.

[chippa13]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1446743978' post='12557044']
just like the opposite where some golfers feel they need to look at a smaller more compact head as it forces them to concentrate more on the swing.
[/quote]

This line is such a crock of sh-t. You know what forces me to concentrate more on my swing with my forgiving Rocketbladez irons, trying to get the ball from here to there in as few shots as possible.

That said, does there really need to be another thread on this topic which will go nowhere and lead to all kinds of foolishness?

[pbr2121]

I desperately want to hit more GIR and have been attacking the problem with lessons, practice, and now more forgiving irons with the right shaft.

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='chippa13' timestamp='1446744876' post='12557100']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1446743978' post='12557044']
just like the opposite where some golfers feel they need to look at a smaller more compact head as it forces them to concentrate more on the swing.
[/quote]

This line is such a crock of sh-t. You know what forces me to concentrate more on my swing with my forgiving Rocketbladez irons, trying to get the ball from here to there in as few shots as possible.

That said, does there really need to be another thread on this topic which will go nowhere and lead to all kinds of foolishness?
[/quote]I didn't say it wasn't a crock of s***... i just pointed out that it is in fact a widely used statement... if you agree or disagree thats fine... i really don't like the comment myself... But it is out there just as the statement regarding liking the look of forgiveness in front of you. There are two sides to this, neither are really wrong as it is just personal perception.

[chippa13]

By definition, a statement that is incorrect is wrong. The more I think about it, if one is addressing the ball on the course and they are super focused on their swing then they're playing the game all wrong. The range is where one should focus on swing (regardless of what type of club they are using) and the course is where one should focus on shots and targets. I guarantee that the touring pros aren't standing over their balls and mentally going over the 12 point checklist of swing mechanics before each swing. Remember, the most widely used piece of advice when someone is struggling is "don't think, just play".

[bladehunter]

[quote name='chippa13' timestamp='1446744876' post='12557100']
[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1446743978' post='12557044']
just like the opposite where some golfers feel they need to look at a smaller more compact head as it forces them to concentrate more on the swing.
[/quote]

This line is such a crock of sh-t. You know what forces me to concentrate more on my swing with my forgiving Rocketbladez irons, trying to get the ball from here to there in as few shots as possible.

That said, does there really need to be another thread on this topic which will go nowhere and lead to all kinds of foolishness?
[/quote]



lol...what IS a crock is that there are people on here who truly care what everyone else plays... it hurts them to think that some prefer a thin sole , sharp leading edge iron... There are so many factors in why a particular person plays a certain iron it isn't even funny... Ive said it a million times.. NOONE will play an iron that costs them strokes for long.. NOBODY!!!!! our egos wont allow it ... in what world does a guy keep a set of blades in the bag knowing he could score better and beat his buddys IF he swapped to something with more bounce or perimeter weighting ????? now way it happens that way longer than a few weeks... those of us who play a smaller iron do so because we HAVE tried it all and know that for US it makes no appreciable difference.... or in my case I truly hit the ball better with a small iron... believe it... or not ... It wont make a difference in my day...

[cliffhanger]

[quote name='chippa13' timestamp='1446745519' post='12557148']
By definition, a statement that is incorrect is wrong. The more I think about it, if one is addressing the ball on the course and they are super focused on their swing then they're playing the game all wrong. The range is where one should focus on swing (regardless of what type of club they are using) and the course is where one should focus on shots and targets. I guarantee that the touring pros aren't standing over their balls and mentally going over the 12 point checklist of swing mechanics before each swing. Remember, the most widely used piece of advice when someone is struggling is "don't think, just play".
[/quote]i really like your post and the "don't think, just play" mentality. However ideally don't think it necessarily means you are going through a 12 point checklist if you are focusing on the swing. And yes by definition incorrect statements are wrong however i really think the issue is their inability to truly put into words the reasoning behind their choices. There is also an element of throwing definitions out the window when it comes to opinion and preferences... at least on GolfWRX it is

[chippa13]

I don't recall saying anything about the choices people make when selecting their clubs. Someone is a little sensitive.

Edit: I think everyone knows where this response was pointed.

[chippa13]

[quote name='cliffhanger' timestamp='1446746109' post='12557206']
[quote name='chippa13' timestamp='1446745519' post='12557148']
By definition, a statement that is incorrect is wrong. The more I think about it, if one is addressing the ball on the course and they are super focused on their swing then they're playing the game all wrong. The range is where one should focus on swing (regardless of what type of club they are using) and the course is where one should focus on shots and targets. I guarantee that the touring pros aren't standing over their balls and mentally going over the 12 point checklist of swing mechanics before each swing. Remember, the most widely used piece of advice when someone is struggling is "don't think, just play".
[/quote]i really like your post and the "don't think, just play" mentality. However ideally don't think it necessarily means you are going through a 12 point checklist if you are focusing on the swing. And yes by definition incorrect statements are wrong however i really think the issue is their inability to truly put into words the reasoning behind their choices. There is also an element of throwing definitions out the window when it comes to opinion and preferences... at least on GolfWRX it is
[/quote]

Obviously, the "12 point checklist" was hyperbole, however, we know that all the great teachers out there stress the same thing, "one swing thought".

If somebody prefers looking down at a smaller head, larger head, what-have-you then they should just say that. Using the statement "it forces me to focus more on my swing" is either patently untrue or causing you more problems on the course than solving because you aren't thinking about the goal and any good coach in any sport will tell you that focusing on the goal is a lot more productive.

[duffer888]

While I agree that forgiveness may be overrated, I don't think three 9 holes rounds is a valid test sample. I'd prefer to see 18 hole rounds where you play the blades for 6-12 months and track your handicap, then see where you stand and if it makes a difference.

I walk and carry whenever practical and hitting long irons on hole #17 into greens is vastly different than on hole #3. Also, seasonality and course conditions factor in, such as soft wet fairways in the winter and long, unmowed rough in the summer. Testing the extreme situations for blades and GI clubs is where you will see the differences most.

Now, does this translate into better scores? I don't think it necessarily does. But forgiveness, overrated or not, shows advantages for all golfers, in some manner or form.

[DavePelz4]

Mrs. Pelz doesn't believe in forgiveness. That's why I sleep on the couch regularly.

[PinonMagnolia]

Unless your putting, driving, chipping, and game outside of the irons are exactly stagnant, looking at score or handicap are bad measures. There are too many components that go into score including clubs, weather, attitude, whether you have it or not on certain days, putting, chipping, luck, etc.

What we know from science is that perimeter weighted clubs fly straighter and further on off-center strikes than non-perimeter weighted clubs. That is science, it is proven, we all know it. I regularly see guys showing up with blades, CBs, s55s Apex Pros, etc. They'll shoot 90 and wonder why.

Jordan Spieth plays AP2s, Zach Johnson plays AP2s, why should a 5 or 10 handicapper play CBs or MBs when the best in the world don't see it as an advantage?

[bullsfan]

Dumpster Fire! Just like the first thread.