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my swing - trying to make Hogan-esque moves


gioguy21

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Guys of WRX/Hogan's Heroes --

 

i'm trying to work on my golf swing to get certain aspects of the Hogan swing/principles into my golf swing. let me start by saying this - i play off a scratch/+ cap, hit my 7i at 180y on average; and have been playing this crazy game for about 20 years. my SS with the driver is (currently) between 113-118 when loose/on course.

 

After reading the lessons, i want to implement the following teachings/thoughts into my golf swing --

 

1) one piece take away to allow for better right elbow position at the top and the beginning of the downswing

2) change in stance/alignment

3) proper sequencing in the lower body to allow for proper turn in the downswing/impact position

 

the first two videos i have are an iron swing from last october, and a driver swing from a few weeks ago:

 

As you can see, i have an over the top move, that luckily, i've been able to play for a long time. yesterday i went to the range to work on the moves, and i'm getting some of them --- ie the proper deep turn, HOWEVER, i'm not getting the explosive push to the left on the start of the downswing to allow the slot to open up, thus allowing me to get in the proper position with the right elbow (tucked in, following/chasing the belt buckle):

 

 

 

 

 

here are a few with the driver:

 

any thoughts/tips would be greatly appreciated -- i'm well aware (as my wife has mentioned) i could lose weight. lol

 

this is going to be my quest for the winter to get the elbow in ---

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if anyone can help, i don't know why it won't load or post the video

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I just want to get rid of the ott...

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i guess what i was trying to say by implementing parts of his teachings is not the ENTIRE part of his swing which, as anyone who has studied his book can discern - is his intention. creating ones' swing while adapting his theory/ideas of the swing.

in my case - my grip is good, my posture is good, i just need to get the wing inside and my weight transferred properly to open the 'window' for the slot to pass through.


any help/tips would be immensely helpful

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[quote name='Drudersh' timestamp='1447450399' post='12595672']
Here's the best tip you'll get. Drive down to Philadelphia and start lessons with John Dunigan. You won't regret it.
[/quote]

a) if i had the cash i would; b) if i lived closer to philly i would

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1447625070' post='12602630']
Your lower body action is in great shape, but yes the OTT move needs work. The issue is that when you swing as fast as you do, it is very difficult to make corrections and get you back to the inside as you come into the ball. You'd have to slow everything way down, take a step back if you will. I had this OTT move when I first started Golf and it was a monumental task to get rid of it. Good luck.
[/quote]
I've been making some strides over the last couple range sessions (i've hit close to 700 balls in 3 days or so); and my round yesterday. it's not easy - sore in places for the first time b/c i'm using my body differently

[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447667780' post='12604478']
If you really want to improve your swing plane then build yourself a swing plane board and use it daily. It's the simplest way to do it.
[/quote]

living in an apartment prohibits this (as does my wife); however i have access to mirrors, cameras, etc. at the local driving range thanks to my friend being the pro there. i'm going to be working hard, exclusively with video and feedback devices to get on plane correctly.



Thanks guys, i really appreciate the feedback.

I'll post some more videos this week

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[quote name='Hack1' timestamp='1447690330' post='12605406']
Pm Monte Scheinblum on here, if he does not chime in.

BTW, when I saw that first driver video, it reminded me of Dustin Johnson's take away and top position.
[/quote]
I've heard that quite a few times before...as long as my wedge game isn't like his lol jk

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here are some videos of my second range session last week (nov 14th):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpox6AjMj2I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtreV5Zz98

Driver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwMnI1KqG_A

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Spider ZT Counterbalance / 36" 

 

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[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447690818' post='12605452']
here are some videos of my second range session last week (nov 14th):

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpox6AjMj2I"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Bpox6AjMj2I[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtreV5Zz98"]https://www.youtube....h?v=yPtreV5Zz98[/url]

Driver:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwMnI1KqG_A"]https://www.youtube....h?v=cwMnI1KqG_A[/url]
[/quote]

What ball flight are you trying to change to with these swing changes? Looks like you're hitting a pull fade at the moment which is a reliable shot if you've got the distance and it looks like you do.

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[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447712594' post='12607090'][quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447690818' post='12605452']
here are some videos of my second range session last week (nov 14th):

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpox6AjMj2I"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Bpox6AjMj2I[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtreV5Zz98"]https://www.youtube....h?v=yPtreV5Zz98[/url]

Driver:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwMnI1KqG_A"]https://www.youtube....h?v=cwMnI1KqG_A[/url]
[/quote]

What ball flight are you trying to change to with these swing changes? Looks like you're hitting a pull fade at the moment which is a reliable shot if you've got the distance and it looks like you do.[/quote]
Yes that's what I want. Something thats consistent and reliable.

Its a process but, for only two range sessions and a round I'm glad things are going in the right direction.

Do you see anything else that I could fix, or work on?
Extra eyes always help...

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Spider ZT Counterbalance / 36" 

 

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[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447716164' post='12607398']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447712594' post='12607090'][quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447690818' post='12605452']
here are some videos of my second range session last week (nov 14th):

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpox6AjMj2I"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Bpox6AjMj2I[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtreV5Zz98"]https://www.youtube....h?v=yPtreV5Zz98[/url]

Driver:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwMnI1KqG_A"]https://www.youtube....h?v=cwMnI1KqG_A[/url]
[/quote]

What ball flight are you trying to change to with these swing changes? Looks like you're hitting a pull fade at the moment which is a reliable shot if you've got the distance and it looks like you do.[/quote]
Yes that's what I want. Something thats consistent and reliable.

Its a process but, for only two range sessions and a round I'm glad things are going in the right direction.

Do you see anything else that I could fix, or work on?
Extra eyes always help...
[/quote]

Well, at the top you're way across the line. Hogan never did that. But if you've done that for a long time it's going to be very hard to change and it may not be worth it. I think with Hogan you've got to look at the principles of his swing and not exact positions. For example, his swing plane was very consistent. His right elbow on the downswing was very consistent to the original plane line. It slid down it.

Hogan actually had a one piece take-away but then was very wristy from then on until about half-way in the downswing. Then his hands were very, very quiet. .

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[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447719249' post='12607640'][quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447716164' post='12607398']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447712594' post='12607090'][quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447690818' post='12605452']
here are some videos of my second range session last week (nov 14th):

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpox6AjMj2I"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Bpox6AjMj2I[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtreV5Zz98"]https://www.youtube....h?v=yPtreV5Zz98[/url]

Driver:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwMnI1KqG_A"]https://www.youtube....h?v=cwMnI1KqG_A[/url]
[/quote]

What ball flight are you trying to change to with these swing changes? Looks like you're hitting a pull fade at the moment which is a reliable shot if you've got the distance and it looks like you do.[/quote]
Yes that's what I want. Something thats consistent and reliable.

Its a process but, for only two range sessions and a round I'm glad things are going in the right direction.

Do you see anything else that I could fix, or work on?
Extra eyes always help...
[/quote]

Well, at the top you're way across the line. Hogan never did that. But if you've done that for a long time it's going to be very hard to change and it may not be worth it. I think with Hogan you've got to look at the principles of his swing and not exact positions. For example, his swing plane was very consistent. His right elbow on the downswing was very consistent to the original plane line. It slid down it.

Hogan actually had a one piece take-away but then was very wristy from then on until about half-way in the downswing. Then his hands were very, very quiet. .[/quote]
Completely understand...and I know he wasn't 6'3" either. I'm just trying to get rid of the ott, and in more consistent, efficient positions so I can get those few more strokes off my score. I average less than 30 putts a round and my short game is great...but my irons could get better, leaving me closer to the hole for better looks at birdies.

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As an interested observer only, just some general comments.
what you have there is not much like Hogan, noone else in the universe can do it either so don't worry.
You are very very "centered", almost reverse pivoting, and crossing the line as said above, from there your first move down is a turn over the top then you have to go down very steeply, which does get your hands back to a good hitting position and is very powerful, but it does mean your body has to stop while you do it.
Hogan had a lot more lateral motion, left shoulder way back almost over right foot and forward swing left shoulder closer to target than at address.
With your left arm that high you might be better to look at Snead or Byron Nelson as to how to come down.
Its well worth looking at the "Coleman" video where Hogan shows his driver swing in slow motion, it looks nothing like how we usually analyze his swing, very interesting.
Not tryng to be rude or anything but your path might be more along the lines of McIlroy, Garcia, Gary Woodland, the guys who have learned to get their hands down from a high position, note that McIlroy for example has a good amount of lateral shift, his left shoulder gets well back and his his back angle is not vertical like yours, it is angled backwards at same angle as his left leg at the top.
My latest practice range research is telling me that Hogan did not "coil" his body like most golfers do nowadays, i.e. not wind up like a coil spring in a very circular motion around a centre.
There is another little vid i have where he shows that the hit action is the butt pad of the right index finger "pushing forward", "pushing" is the secret word i think. I cannot get the club to come back on the take-away path even if i manage to take it away on a Hogan-like shaft plane, this has defeated me for a thousand years.
I am now rethinking the whole motion, after i tried an old swing motion i used to use years ago, and thinking back to the old-school way of dragging the club back with your hands going first. To me this is a "pulling" motion, a pulling away, kinda across your right toe, this motion gives you width and you stop when you can't pull away any more, do not add "coil", do not turn more around towards the target.
I get a pretty good on shaft plane take-away when i do that but now how to get the club moving forward still on plane? This is what i have never been able to do, i think because i "uncoil", or hit down, or swing forward, or turn hips, or hold back and throw, right elbow in, drop my right shoulder etc. etc. none of the thousand things i have tried ever get the club back down on plane, except! the idea of "pushing" the club forward, the hands and the right side of the body "push" the club forward towards the ball. This is the only motion i have found that returns the club back along the take-away path.
When you "pull and push" like this the club never gets behind you, the path back to the ball is open and clear.
That's the thoughts for today.

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[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447810463' post='12612964']
Just out of interests sake... how do you practice your irons?
[/quote] ...how do you mean?

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[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1447862456' post='12615078']
Got any videos from FO?
[/quote] yes however, because of the range i go to, i can't get a vid without the divider in the way...here's what i have tho:

first try using the new swing:
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOo5nM1L8sw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=aOo5nM1L8sw[/url]

second range session, following day:
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpox6AjMj2I"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Bpox6AjMj2I[/url]

don't know if you guys can see it but, i'm getting onto my left side much better and it's a more compact but just as powerful swing ---

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[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447852732' post='12614500']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447810463' post='12612964']
Just out of interests sake... how do you practice your irons?
[/quote] ...how do you mean?
[/quote]

Sorry, should have been more clear. You say you need to improve your iron shots to lower your scores... so how are you currently practicing your iron shots to lower your scores? Are you just trying to improve your golf swing to hopefully do that or are you practicing in a specific way e.g. replicating course conditions and shots you have not done well at in the past?

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[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447873799' post='12615942']
[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447852732' post='12614500']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447810463' post='12612964']
Just out of interests sake... how do you practice your irons?
[/quote] ...how do you mean?
[/quote]

Sorry, should have been more clear. You say you need to improve your iron shots to lower your scores... so how are you currently practicing your iron shots to lower your scores? Are you just trying to improve your golf swing to hopefully do that or are you practicing in a specific way e.g. replicating course conditions and shots you have not done well at in the past?
[/quote]

i'm practicing a consistent swing, alignment etc to shoot to a particular target of a certain distance (this is with all clubs).

i've lost shots in each round due to a lack of consistency in my golf swing due to getting disconnected and loose at the top (see original vids) and missing my target. yes, i have a good short game and my putting is good...but putting pressure on both of those things sometimes 5-6 times a round is tough. i want more GIRs and i would like my GIRs to be closer to the hole to afford more birdies and pars.

did i answer your question right?

don't know what exactly you were trying to figure out/tie into...

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[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447876380' post='12616086']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447873799' post='12615942']
[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447852732' post='12614500']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447810463' post='12612964']
Just out of interests sake... how do you practice your irons?
[/quote] ...how do you mean?
[/quote]

Sorry, should have been more clear. You say you need to improve your iron shots to lower your scores... so how are you currently practicing your iron shots to lower your scores? Are you just trying to improve your golf swing to hopefully do that or are you practicing in a specific way e.g. replicating course conditions and shots you have not done well at in the past?
[/quote]

i'm practicing a consistent swing, alignment etc to shoot to a particular target of a certain distance (this is with all clubs).

i've lost shots in each round due to a lack of consistency in my golf swing due to getting disconnected and loose at the top (see original vids) and missing my target. yes, i have a good short game and my putting is good...but putting pressure on both of those things sometimes 5-6 times a round is tough. i want more GIRs and i would like my GIRs to be closer to the hole to afford more birdies and pars.

did i answer your question right?

don't know what exactly you were trying to figure out/tie into...
[/quote]

Here's something to think about. Hitting 13/18 greens in regulation consistently (or on average) would put you inside the top 100 on the PGA tour in GIR %. If your putting and chipping are both good, and your are "sometimes" having to get up and down 5-6 times a round, then I'm assuming you usually average more than 13-14 GIR's, in which case I'd argue you don't have a consistency problem you have a proximity problem.

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[quote name='Drudersh' timestamp='1447884087' post='12616582'][quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447876380' post='12616086']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447873799' post='12615942']
[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447852732' post='12614500']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447810463' post='12612964']
Just out of interests sake... how do you practice your irons?
[/quote] ...how do you mean?
[/quote]

Sorry, should have been more clear. You say you need to improve your iron shots to lower your scores... so how are you currently practicing your iron shots to lower your scores? Are you just trying to improve your golf swing to hopefully do that or are you practicing in a specific way e.g. replicating course conditions and shots you have not done well at in the past?
[/quote]

i'm practicing a consistent swing, alignment etc to shoot to a particular target of a certain distance (this is with all clubs).

i've lost shots in each round due to a lack of consistency in my golf swing due to getting disconnected and loose at the top (see original vids) and missing my target. yes, i have a good short game and my putting is good...but putting pressure on both of those things sometimes 5-6 times a round is tough. i want more GIRs and i would like my GIRs to be closer to the hole to afford more birdies and pars.

did i answer your question right?

don't know what exactly you were trying to figure out/tie into...
[/quote]

Here's something to think about. Hitting 13/18 greens in regulation consistently (or on average) would put you inside the top 100 on the PGA tour in GIR %. If your putting and chipping are both good, and your are "sometimes" having to get up and down 5-6 times a round, then I'm assuming you usually average more than 13-14 GIR's, in which case I'd argue you don't have a consistency problem you have a proximity problem.[/quote]
Either way...consistency gets me closer.

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Callaway Elyte Ti / 3W / Tensei 1K White 70TX

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Taylormade Qi35 / 3H / Tensei Pro Orange 90TX
PING Blueprint S / 4-PW / KBS Tour-V X 

Taylormade HT4 Copper / 50, 55, 60 / KBS 610 S+

Spider ZT Counterbalance / 36" 

 

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[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447876380' post='12616086']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447873799' post='12615942']
[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447852732' post='12614500']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447810463' post='12612964']
Just out of interests sake... how do you practice your irons?
[/quote] ...how do you mean?
[/quote]

Sorry, should have been more clear. You say you need to improve your iron shots to lower your scores... so how are you currently practicing your iron shots to lower your scores? Are you just trying to improve your golf swing to hopefully do that or are you practicing in a specific way e.g. replicating course conditions and shots you have not done well at in the past?
[/quote]

i'm practicing a consistent swing, alignment etc to shoot to a particular target of a certain distance (this is with all clubs).

i've lost shots in each round due to a lack of consistency in my golf swing due to getting disconnected and loose at the top (see original vids) and missing my target. yes, i have a good short game and my putting is good...but putting pressure on both of those things sometimes 5-6 times a round is tough. i want more GIRs and i would like my GIRs to be closer to the hole to afford more birdies and pars.

did i answer your question right?

don't know what exactly you were trying to figure out/tie into...
[/quote]

Well, as a certified mind factor coach I would get you to make your practice a lot harder than your games. To help you get started I would get you playing a game where you set up a target for say a 5 iron. Then place some objects either side of your target about 15 yards apart. So now you have a 15 yard gate to hit through with the target in the middle. Get 10 balls and have a goal of getting 7 out of 10 between the gate. For each shot go through your "on course" routine exactly. For example, after each shot, place the club back in the bag and start again. And don't have 10 balls just lying there. Have 10 balls set aside and pull 1 out and just put it down without trying to give yourself a good lie. Have a notebook and mark down after each shot whether you achieved your goal of not. If you get 7 out of 10 through the gate then you can make the gate smaller and harder. If you don't, then you don't get to practice anymore.

I think you'd get a better return on investment (out on the golf course) doing things like that than trying to make big swing changes.

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[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447885434' post='12616666'][quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447876380' post='12616086']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447873799' post='12615942']
[quote name='gioguy21' timestamp='1447852732' post='12614500']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1447810463' post='12612964']
Just out of interests sake... how do you practice your irons?
[/quote] ...how do you mean?
[/quote]

Sorry, should have been more clear. You say you need to improve your iron shots to lower your scores... so how are you currently practicing your iron shots to lower your scores? Are you just trying to improve your golf swing to hopefully do that or are you practicing in a specific way e.g. replicating course conditions and shots you have not done well at in the past?
[/quote]

i'm practicing a consistent swing, alignment etc to shoot to a particular target of a certain distance (this is with all clubs).

i've lost shots in each round due to a lack of consistency in my golf swing due to getting disconnected and loose at the top (see original vids) and missing my target. yes, i have a good short game and my putting is good...but putting pressure on both of those things sometimes 5-6 times a round is tough. i want more GIRs and i would like my GIRs to be closer to the hole to afford more birdies and pars.

did i answer your question right?

don't know what exactly you were trying to figure out/tie into...
[/quote]

Well, as a certified mind factor coach I would get you to make your practice a lot harder than your games. To help you get started I would get you playing a game where you set up a target for say a 5 iron. Then place some objects either side of your target about 15 yards apart. So now you have a 15 yard gate to hit through with the target in the middle. Get 10 balls and have a goal of getting 7 out of 10 between the gate. For each shot go through your "on course" routine exactly. For example, after each shot, place the club back in the bag and start again. And don't have 10 balls just lying there. Have 10 balls set aside and pull 1 out and just put it down without trying to give yourself a good lie. Have a notebook and mark down after each shot whether you achieved your goal of not. If you get 7 out of 10 through the gate then you can make the gate smaller and harder. If you don't, then you don't get to practice anymore.

I think you'd get a better return on investment (out on the golf course) doing things like that than trying to make big swing changes.[/quote]
While you're correct and you're right, I could implement those training ideas...if I dont have a more repeatable swing, specifically for pressure situations...practice with a broken wheel still leaves me with a broken wheel.

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Why do you want to model yourself after Hogan?

Just about everything in Hogan's swing is different from what you're doing. Setup, grip, feel, timing, rhythm - all of these are fundamentally different from what you're doing.

The impact alignments are almost opposite of what you're doing. You have a swing where hands arrive late and exit fast, while pivot moves slow through the ball. Hogan was the opposite. He set himself up for a lot of shoulder turn through the ball, his right elbow stayed bent and pointing at his right hip longer and he had two (almost) straight arms way past impact, at a point in the finish where both your arms have more or less collapsed already.

If you want to move in this direction anyway, you should perhaps look at Keegan Bradley. He is actually quite close to a modern tall man's version of a Hogan-like release.

[media]http://youtu.be/972AdKEjO5Q[/media]

He has more knee bend and more bend from the hips than you have, his hands are hanging straighter down, and he also has a stronger grip than you. All of that enables him to drop the club down behind him and pivot hard through the ball. Also observe how well his hands and shoulders keep up with the clubhead past impact. If it were an Iron, the hands would disappear to the inside before the clubhead. This is the type of impact dynamics that set Hogan, Keegan and a few others apart from people with more flippy swings.

What Hogan and Keegan does is perhaps regarded as the politically most correct way of hitting the ball, and perhaps also a better way to get it done overall. But the cost of changing seems to be very high. Your swing has more in common with Phil Mickelson VJ Singh and Luis Oosthuyzen than Hogan and Bradley.

We regularly see players on the highest level try to do smaller changes than this, and it always seems to hurt them. A very good recent example is Luke Donald. He worked his butt off for a couple of years, and dropped like a stone on the world ranking. And then he decided that he had to go back to his old swing. He hasn't recovered yet, and we may never again see him perform as well as he did when he won both tours and became world no 1.

Here is one great player that have a sequence that is a lot more similar to what you're doing than Bradley and Hogan.

[media]http://youtu.be/3eQd1zxKihQ[/media]

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And here's LD when he was the best player in the world:

media][media=]http://youtu.be/hbskozAvD4g[/media][/media]

These guys cross their arms over faster than Hogan and Bradley through the ball. Right elbow comes out faster, clubhead moves to the inside faster, and hands stay out longer post impact. But these guys turn better through the ball than you, so it's not like you can't improve your own swing. But I think these guys are a better model for you than Hogan.

Here's Hogan, btw:

[media]http://youtu.be/cDO9GKrdS0I[/media]

Even with a wood, his hands disappear to the inside before the clubhead. And look at the extension he has when his hands come up high. This is a totally different type of swing. It is perhaps what has made him THE swing model, but many players have ruined their game, chasing his swing. When a talented guy like Luke Donald got substantially worse when he tried to change his swing in a Hogan-like direction I'd say you have the odds against you. The chances of improving will be greater if you find a model that has more similar impact alignments to yourself. Or even better - learn to love your own swing, understand why it works as well as the weaknesses, and tweak it in a direction that makes it even more reliable than today. You will never get as consistent as Hogan was anyway, but you will get closer if you do it your way instead of his.

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There is no perfect swing... so in a sense your swing is always going to be a broken wheel. You can most certainly make your swing more efficient and easier to repeat BUT at the same time you need to make your practice harder and more like a game so at anytime, with any swing you're ready to do your best.

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