Pentalty for slow play in a scramble..... who should get it?

[Break81]

Played in a 2 man scramble today and in our 4 some an older fellow in the other twosome decided to walk. To add to this he was a extremely deliberate player and my twosome was constantly waiting on him even though my partner and I played ready golf throughout the day.

 

Our foursome finished in 4:30 however the group in front of us with all single digit players and finished in 3:50. So both twosomes in our group were penalized 2 strokes. When we discussed the situation with the club chairman, he said it is our responsibility to make sure the other players in our group keep pace, even though they admitted they had had issue with this gentlemen before. We were never put on the clock nor told we had to pick it up even though we knew the players ahead of us were a few holes ahead.

 

For me, this is a casual mens club I am not going to be policing a gentlemen 25 years my senior and turning a fun round into an uncomfortable day.

 

So question, should the entire foursome (2 separate twosomes) be penalized or just the twosome with the slow player? Or should finishing in 4:30 be ok considering we were behind a group with 4 almost scratch golfers?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

a couple of takeaways from all this. if you got dusted (I mean 40mins? they finished minimum 2 holes, probably 3 holes, in front of you) what happened to all the groups BEHIND you? did you have them up your Word not allowed all day? was it clearly explained to you that pace of play policy was in place and was based on your finishing time in relation to the group in FRONT of you (not 4:30)? and if not... how are you allowed to be out there unwittingly "on the clock" without a marshall, or a tournament somebody, coming out and telling you to get it in gear?

[Newby]

Was a proper POP Condition published?

[Vindog]

a couple of takeaways from all this. if you got dusted (I mean 40mins? they finished in minimum 2 holes, probably 3 holes, in front of you) what happened to all the groups BEHIND you? did you have them up your Word not allowed all day? was it clearly explained to you that pace of play policy was in place and was based on your finishing time in relation to the group in FRONT of you (not 4:30)? and if not... how are you allowed to be out there unwittingly "on the clock" without a marshall, or a tournament somebody, coming out and telling you to get it in gear?

 

All of this. I'm all for enforcing PoP guidelines, but jeez man do it logically and in a way that allows the players to want to correct it themselves.

[mark m]

Your case seems very unreasonable.

 

Here is a link to a pace of play policy: http://www.mngolf.org/Res/Pace%20of%20Play%202015%204.pdf

 

In my experience, the committee would have checkpoints (#10 or whatever), or for a club tournament, just have someone drive the course backwards and look for gaps and check the times. If you find a group behind pace, warn them and follow them for a hole or two and if they do not pick it up, it will probably be obvious who the problem player(s) is/are. When I have had the situation, I have told the official who the problem player(s) is/are. Sorry, but I am not taking one for these guys. They are causing problems and taking away from my experience and the experience of others on the course.

 

You should not be able to penalize all members of a group without an appeal process. I can see that this situation has left a bad taste for you. And that is bad enough. Hopefully the committee will listen to you and make some adjustments so that good participants are not discouraged from participating in the future. Did this penalty cost you anything in prize money?

[Mr. Bean]

To me this seems like a stupid joke. You are penalized for something you have no influence? I mean, if there is no referee or any kind of pace of play control on the course how the h*ll you are held responsible for one individual holding the entire course back?

 

All this sounds like very bad competition management to me.

[station2station]

You got the shaft in my opinion. You aren't required to police your competitors even if they happened to be inside your own group. You and your teammate did all you are required to do.

 

The fact that the tournament had previous issues with the gentleman says it all. They needed to institute checkpoints - even if that consists of the tourney director rolling up in a cart every 4 holes and talking to the player.

 

You got the shaft, and that's unfortunate. Good knowledge to have if this event tries to recruit in the future.

 

That being said, it's a scramble. I understand why they exist but they are what they are. Scrambles were so unpopular at our club they did away with them. The only time they have a scramble is couples night, 9 holes, with a full bar being driven by a cart person. You and your wife, and 17 other couples and the 9 holes takes nearly 3 hours. ack....

[Break81]

Your case seems very unreasonable.

 

Here is a link to a pace of play policy: http://www.mngolf.or...Play 2015 4.pdf

 

In my experience, the committee would have checkpoints (#10 or whatever), or for a club tournament, just have someone drive the course backwards and look for gaps and check the times. If you find a group behind pace, warn them and follow them for a hole or two and if they do not pick it up, it will probably be obvious who the problem player(s) is/are. When I have had the situation, I have told the official who the problem player(s) is/are. Sorry, but I am not taking one for these guys. They are causing problems and taking away from my experience and the experience of others on the course.

 

You should not be able to penalize all members of a group without an appeal process. I can see that this situation has left a bad taste for you. And that is bad enough. Hopefully the committee will listen to you and make some adjustments so that good participants are not discouraged from participating in the future. Did this penalty cost you anything in prize money?

 

No it did not cost us any prize of script, if it did I would have been slightly more upset. To answer another question posted in this thread, yes the POP policy is on the back of the rules sheet and is written to the effect of 20 minutes behind the group in front of you. I do acknowledge under that rule we are in violation, but when you put a previous offender in the 3rd group out (12 groups I think total) it is a recipe for delaying not only the whole club event, but all the open play that comes after. However we where not pushed by the group directly behind us.

The first 2 groups always play fast as they are from +1 to 3 handicap players. Why would you put a known slow player in group 3? I agree with having a marshall follow for a hole and see what is the issue. Then the marshall can warn 1 team or both.

[Break81]

a couple of takeaways from all this. if you got dusted (I mean 40mins? they finished minimum 2 holes, probably 3 holes, in front of you) what happened to all the groups BEHIND you? did you have them up your Word not allowed all day? was it clearly explained to you that pace of play policy was in place and was based on your finishing time in relation to the group in FRONT of you (not 4:30)? and if not... how are you allowed to be out there unwittingly "on the clock" without a marshall, or a tournament somebody, coming out and telling you to get it in gear?

To answer your question on the groups behind us, they were not pushing us, nor where they waiting on us. They were moving at the same pace we were always about 1/2 shot behind. I can think of only 1 par 3 on the front where they had to wait.

 

It's a really long course and 4:30 is not unusual for mid-high cappers.

[Colin L]

Your case seems very unreasonable.

 

Here is a link to a pace of play policy: http://www.mngolf.or...Play 2015 4.pdf

 

In my experience, the committee would have checkpoints (#10 or whatever), or for a club tournament, just have someone drive the course backwards and look for gaps and check the times. If you find a group behind pace, warn them and follow them for a hole or two and if they do not pick it up, it will probably be obvious who the problem player(s) is/are. When I have had the situation, I have told the official who the problem player(s) is/are. Sorry, but I am not taking one for these guys. They are causing problems and taking away from my experience and the experience of others on the course.

 

You should not be able to penalize all members of a group without an appeal process. I can see that this situation has left a bad taste for you. And that is bad enough. Hopefully the committee will listen to you and make some adjustments so that good participants are not discouraged from participating in the future. Did this penalty cost you anything in prize money?

 

No it did not cost us any prize of script, if it did I would have been slightly more upset. To answer another question posted in this thread, yes the POP policy is on the back of the rules sheet and is written to the effect of 20 minutes behind the group in front of you. I do acknowledge under that rule we are in violation, but when you put a previous offender in the 3rd group out (12 groups I think total) it is a recipe for delaying not only the whole club event, but all the open play that comes after.

The first 2 groups always play fast as they are from +1 to 3 handicap players. Why would you put a known slow player in group 3? I agree with having a marshall follow for a hole and see what is the issue. Then the marshall can warn 1 team or both.

 

I am as opposed to any sanction that is applied indiscriminately to a group instead of to the individual(s) at fault in golf as I am in any context. Do any of you remember teachers who thought it ok to punish an entire class because one person would not own up to a misdemeanour? If so, do you remember the (justifiable) resentment it caused?

[Chomper]

OP - You got hosed. Sorry to hear.

 

Write a letter, signed by your partner and by the other twosome in your group, explaining the situation and laying blame where it properly should lay.

If that does not work, at least there is "documentation" about the slow play in a tournament, where the gentleman at fault should be fairly warned and "encouraged" to either pick up pace or not play.

[mark m]

I too would encourage you to speak or email the committee again stating your case. Say that this guy bothered you, that he helped to diminish your experience, and that you have now been unfairly labeled. Why should you participate again? Speak about what is good for the club as a whole. It stinks that you should do this - but a lot of good could come from it.

[Mr. Bean]

 

I am as opposed to any sanction that is applied indiscriminately to a group instead of to the individual(s) at fault in golf as I am in any context. Do any of you remember teachers who thought it ok to punish an entire class because one person would not own up to a misdemeanour? If so, do you remember the (justifiable) resentment it caused?

 

Oh yes, that was the culture in the military service!

 

And yes, I still hate those guys who thought it was funny to do something stupid to make us all suffer.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

a couple of takeaways from all this. if you got dusted (I mean 40mins? they finished minimum 2 holes, probably 3 holes, in front of you) what happened to all the groups BEHIND you? did you have them up your Word not allowed all day? was it clearly explained to you that pace of play policy was in place and was based on your finishing time in relation to the group in FRONT of you (not 4:30)? and if not... how are you allowed to be out there unwittingly "on the clock" without a marshall, or a tournament somebody, coming out and telling you to get it in gear?

To answer your question on the groups behind us, they were not pushing us, nor where they waiting on us. They were moving at the same pace we were always about 1/2 shot behind. I can think of only 1 par 3 on the front where they had to wait.

 

It's a really long course and 4:30 is not unusual for mid-high cappers.

Los Serranos South?

 

was the group in front of you the first group out (they were the pace group)?

 

if your time was considered slow (and you feel you were not holding up the field) every group behind you must have finished in 4:30 or longer... how weren't slow play penalties all assessed behind you as well?

 

or does this mens club not have a stated "slow play" policy in place, but just throw a duece at the group that appears to finish soooo far out of position? (basically saying, "thanks for f'in up the pace for the day" and we don't consider anything as an excuse for it.)

[landolakes]

If I was in a group that fell that far behind the group in front I would have been on everyone to get their a** in gear -- friends or people I have just got paired with.......its not fun for anyone , but neither was the end result you ended up with

[Break81]

a couple of takeaways from all this. if you got dusted (I mean 40mins? they finished minimum 2 holes, probably 3 holes, in front of you) what happened to all the groups BEHIND you? did you have them up your Word not allowed all day? was it clearly explained to you that pace of play policy was in place and was based on your finishing time in relation to the group in FRONT of you (not 4:30)? and if not... how are you allowed to be out there unwittingly "on the clock" without a marshall, or a tournament somebody, coming out and telling you to get it in gear?

To answer your question on the groups behind us, they were not pushing us, nor where they waiting on us. They were moving at the same pace we were always about 1/2 shot behind. I can think of only 1 par 3 on the front where they had to wait.

 

It's a really long course and 4:30 is not unusual for mid-high cappers.

Los Serranos South?

 

was the group in front of you the first group out (they were the pace group)?

 

if your time was considered slow (and you feel you were not holding up the field) every group behind you must have finished in 4:30 or longer... how weren't slow play penalties all assessed behind you as well?

 

or does this mens club not have a stated "slow play" policy in place, but just throw a duece at the group that appears to finish soooo far out of position? (basically saying, "thanks for f'in up the pace for the day" and we don't consider anything as an excuse for it.)

 

Yes it was the south course. The rest of the field was not penalized as it is all in relation to the group in front of you. Even if the group behind us was 4:45, they were only :15 behind us which is within club guidelines. Even if the course recommends casual POP to be 4:15, our 4:30 vs the 3:50 of the 2nd group out (and also for the 1st group) makes the 3rd group (my group) tardy. I really do not have a problem with the policy, it is how it is enforced without on course officials. Also if there is prior knowledge of a slower player, even if he is a lower cap player, he needs to be in the back end of the field with the groups that are more likely to also be slow based on their skill level.

[Break81]

If I was in a group that fell that far behind the group in front I would have been on everyone to get their a** in gear -- friends or people I have just got paired with.......its not fun for anyone , but neither was the end result you ended up with

I guess I am too polite to my elders, both on and off the course. I am certain I would feel like such a d***, I would most likely not be focused on golf and played worse as a result.

[farmer]

Actually, I'm more surprised that in a scramble a penalty for anything was imposed.

[Shilgy]

I still don't understand how a course says is pace of play is 4:30 in a 2 man scramble. That may be the normal pace for 4 somes but you are essentially in 2 somes.

[Break81]

I still don't understand how a course says is pace of play is 4:30 in a 2 man scramble. That may be the normal pace for 4 somes but you are essentially in 2 somes.

You still have 4 guys hitting on each shot. yes they are from better locations but you cannot have 4 guys playing as fast as 2.

[mark m]

IMO, of the 3 major types of play - your own ball, foursomes (alternate), and scramble - scramble is the slowest. Especially for average players. They tend to over consult and and so on. Alternate is the quickest.

[station2station]

IMO, of the 3 major types of play - your own ball, foursomes (alternate), and scramble - scramble is the slowest. Especially for average players. They tend to over consult and and so on. Alternate is the quickest.

 

And then there is the 4 man scramble which is cheaters paradise. Every time I think our group legitimately played out of our minds, some group of 20 cappers rolls up with a 58.

 

...never again.

[Sawgrass]

Some tournaments simply don't have the manpower to monitor pace of play, and particularly don't have the manpower to put an individual (instead of a group) on the clock. So a choice is to warn people but don't actually penalize anyone, or sometimes as in this case penalize everyone in the slow group after they come in.

 

I've sometimes wondered how things would go if Rule 6-7 was modified to allow the penalized group to "vote" on which individuals should accept what might otherwise be the group as a whole's penalty. That could add some teeth to in-round admonitions to a particular player to speed up. Could be interesting . . .

[deadsolid...shank]

i think its a crap penalty. Just because the group in front is abnormally quick doesn't mean your grou too slow. As evidenced by the groups behind not waiting.

 

Sounds to me like someone just throwing something (a penalty) out there without having a clue what they're doing.

[Mr. Bean]

Some tournaments simply don't have the manpower to monitor pace of play, and particularly don't have the manpower to put an individual (instead of a group) on the clock. So a choice is to warn people but don't actually penalize anyone, or sometimes as in this case penalize everyone in the slow group after they come in.

 

In the latter case, what are the alternatives for the fast team to avoid the penalty? Leave the slow team behind? Not a good choice, that would a DQ penalty on R6-3b.

 

So you're stuck with the snails and the penalty they make you suffer, is that it?

 

Poor competition management, I say.....

[Bob Cat]

Seems very simple to me: The course marshall(s) should do their job.

[Colin L]

i think its a crap penalty. Just because the group in front is abnormally quick doesn't mean your grou too slow. As evidenced by the groups behind not waiting.

 

Sounds to me like someone just throwing something (a penalty) out there without having a clue what they're doing.

 

A sensible pace of play policy will require a group to be failing on two counts before putting players on the clock: losing ground on the game in front and not being within the expected time for where they are on the course.

[Shilgy]

I still don't understand how a course says is pace of play is 4:30 in a 2 man scramble. That may be the normal pace for 4 somes but you are essentially in 2 somes.

You still have 4 guys hitting on each shot. yes they are from better locations but you cannot have 4 guys playing as fast as 2.

Not as fast as 2 but a lot faster than 4 players playing their own ball down.

[Shilgy]

IMO, of the 3 major types of play - your own ball, foursomes (alternate), and scramble - scramble is the slowest. Especially for average players. They tend to over consult and and so on. Alternate is the quickest.

Alternate is quickest but imo no way is scramble slower than own ball.

[deadsolid...shank]

i think its a crap penalty. Just because the group in front is abnormally quick doesn't mean your grou too slow. As evidenced by the groups behind not waiting.

 

Sounds to me like someone just throwing something (a penalty) out there without having a clue what they're doing.

 

A sensible pace of play policy will require a group to be failing on two counts before putting players on the clock: losing ground on the game in front and not being within the expected time for where they are on the course.

 

I agree for the most part. I put a little more stock in the fact they weren't holding up the following groups. There are many groups that are quite a bit faster than the normal pace, and I wouldn't expect them to hold position with a group like that.