Pentalty for slow play in a scramble..... who should get it?

[mark m]

IMO, of the 3 major types of play - your own ball, foursomes (alternate), and scramble - scramble is the slowest. Especially for average players. They tend to over consult and and so on. Alternate is the quickest.

Alternate is quickest but imo no way is scramble slower than own ball.

 

You make a good point. I should have been clearer. I was speaking of a combo (best ball, alternate, & scramble) format but didn't say that. If 2 players both had to play and finish each hole, then playing your own ball may be slower than scramble. I have played 30+ combo tournaments, some 18 holes, some 27, and scramble was the slowest almost all the time. But in four-ball, it is quite common that only one player on a 2-man team actually holes out on each hole.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Break81]

2 man scramble is only a hair faster than 4 playing their own ball. All 4 tee off and play into the green. The only possible time saving is having 1 less putt per team (2 per group) for whatever time that takes. Maybe a minute per hole?

 

Add back in the fact their is no gimmies and guys are marking 18" putts and it could actually take about the same amount of time.

[Shilgy]

2 man scramble is only a hair faster than 4 playing their own ball. All 4 tee off and play into the green. The only possible time saving is having 1 less putt per team (2 per group) for whatever time that takes. Maybe a minute per hole?

 

Add back in the fact their is no gimmies and guys are marking 18" putts and it could actually take about the same amount of time.

Depending on the quality of players the scramble is much quicker. No recovery shots. Should be all pars and birdies. Very little of any chipping or scrambling. Hopefully of you hit a bad shot you just go pick it up. I will stick with my belief that it should be much faster.

[taporsnap17]

Some tournaments simply don't have the manpower to monitor pace of play, and particularly don't have the manpower to put an individual (instead of a group) on the clock. So a choice is to warn people but don't actually penalize anyone, or sometimes as in this case penalize everyone in the slow group after they come in. I've sometimes wondered how things would go if Rule 6-7 was modified to allow the penalized group to "vote" on which individuals should accept what might otherwise be the group as a whole's penalty. That could add some teeth to in-round admonitions to a particular player to speed up. Could be interesting . . .

 

Were you a "Survivor" guy or more of a "Weakest Link" guy? ;-)

[rogolf]

Some tournaments simply don't have the manpower to monitor pace of play, and particularly don't have the manpower to put an individual (instead of a group) on the clock. So a choice is to warn people but don't actually penalize anyone, or sometimes as in this case penalize everyone in the slow group after they come in.

 

I've sometimes wondered how things would go if Rule 6-7 was modified to allow the penalized group to "vote" on which individuals should accept what might otherwise be the group as a whole's penalty. That could add some teeth to in-round admonitions to a particular player to speed up. Could be interesting . . .

I was the referee involved in a group pace of play penalty situation last season and had to inform one group that they had incurred a total of three penalty strokes (1 + 2) for missing three consecutive check points (and holding up the whole course behind them, but that's irrelevant). One guy wanted to accept the blame for their problems but that can't happen. I was wondering if he was going to accept all nine penalty strokes that the group had earned. :)

[QEight]

Some tournaments simply don't have the manpower to monitor pace of play, and particularly don't have the manpower to put an individual (instead of a group) on the clock. So a choice is to warn people but don't actually penalize anyone, or sometimes as in this case penalize everyone in the slow group after they come in.

 

Here is the ET hard card http://www.regolegolf.com/cms/fileadmin/docs/rules/hc/PGAETHardCard2015_EN_rg.pdf, Section B 2. Especially addition 4.

[mark m]

The situation for the OP was a club tournament and roles and procedures should be discussed and firmed up prior to play.

 

I would like the rules guys here to address a question: Would it be a good policy to have a ranger/starter given this responsibility for a tournament?

 

I can see a ranger handling pace for everyday play. Or if the ranger had some experience with this role in his past. But for me, I think most rangers/starters would not want to be put into this situation where they are assigning penalties. I do think they could help by identifying gaps and using the radio to call in a pro or club official to take it from there(?) I am interested in what you guys think and/or have experienced.

 

Another point: at the club level, we typically know who the problem players are in advance of play.

 

Thanks,

Mark

[rogolf]

The situation for the OP was a club tournament and roles and procedures should be discussed and firmed up prior to play.

 

I would like the rules guys here to address a question: Would it be a good policy to have a ranger/starter given this responsibility for a tournament?

 

I can see a ranger handling pace for everyday play. Or if the ranger had some experience with this role in his past. But for me, I think most rangers/starters would not want to be put into this situation where they are assigning penalties. I do think they could help by identifying gaps and using the radio to call in a pro or club official to take it from there(?) I am interested in what you guys think and/or have experienced.

 

Another point: at the club level, we typically know who the problem players are in advance of play.

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

The responsibility for adhering to any pace of play condition rests with the players and they should clearly understand that if they don't comply, there will be consequences, including penalties. Prepare a pace of play condition that clarifies this, is realistic and achievable, is based on facts and data and leaves personalities out of it. Then apply it.

A simple system is a two checkpoint system, with checkpoints at the 9th and 18th hole. Groups failing to meet these times and more than 13-14 minutes behind the group in front are liable to penalties. "Liable" because acceptable causes need to be built in (such as searches on the 9th or 18th hole). Apply it consistently. The players will learn and appreciate it.

[Sawgrass]

Some tournaments simply don't have the manpower to monitor pace of play, and particularly don't have the manpower to put an individual (instead of a group) on the clock. So a choice is to warn people but don't actually penalize anyone, or sometimes as in this case penalize everyone in the slow group after they come in.

 

Here is the ET hard card http://www.regolegolf.com/cms/fileadmin/docs/rules/hc/PGAETHardCard2015_EN_rg.pdf, Section B 2. Especially addition 4.

 

I appreciate reading the hard card, so thanks. My point was that many modest tournaments don't have the manpower to execute such controls as watching and timing a particular player as he moves through his round. Those modest tournaments are the ones which have a Tough choice, neither option appealing.

[QEight]

Some tournaments simply don't have the manpower to monitor pace of play, and particularly don't have the manpower to put an individual (instead of a group) on the clock. So a choice is to warn people but don't actually penalize anyone, or sometimes as in this case penalize everyone in the slow group after they come in.

 

Here is the ET hard card http://www.regolegol...d2015_EN_rg.pdf, Section B 2. Especially addition 4.

 

I appreciate reading the hard card, so thanks. My point was that many modest tournaments don't have the manpower to execute such controls as watching and timing a particular player as he moves through his round. Those modest tournaments are the ones which have a Tough choice, neither option appealing.

 

Sorry I was in a hurry and was not very clear in my posting. I understand the problem with the local scrambles with limited staff.

[KevCarter]

The situation for the OP was a club tournament and roles and procedures should be discussed and firmed up prior to play.

 

I would like the rules guys here to address a question: Would it be a good policy to have a ranger/starter given this responsibility for a tournament?

 

I can see a ranger handling pace for everyday play. Or if the ranger had some experience with this role in his past. But for me, I think most rangers/starters would not want to be put into this situation where they are assigning penalties. I do think they could help by identifying gaps and using the radio to call in a pro or club official to take it from there(?) I am interested in what you guys think and/or have experienced.

 

Another point: at the club level, we typically know who the problem players are in advance of play.

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

Hello Mark, I agree with your bold words 100%. I think the actual discussion and penalty should come from a rules / club official.

 

Kevin

[HoffTTM]

IMO, of the 3 major types of play - your own ball, foursomes (alternate), and scramble - scramble is the slowest. Especially for average players. They tend to over consult and and so on. Alternate is the quickest.

Alternate is quickest but imo no way is scramble slower than own ball.

 

Its much much slower.

 

Rather than go find your own ball and hit in turn you have to decide which is the best, go find your ball anyway, return it to where the best one is and only when everyone has arrived does the excess strategy talk start. Then 4 seperate lots of shot prep and extra blabbing, rinse and repeat.

[deadsolid...shank]

IMO, of the 3 major types of play - your own ball, foursomes (alternate), and scramble - scramble is the slowest. Especially for average players. They tend to over consult and and so on. Alternate is the quickest.

Alternate is quickest but imo no way is scramble slower than own ball.

 

Its much much slower.

 

Rather than go find your own ball and hit in turn you have to decide which is the best, go find your ball anyway, return it to where the best one is and only when everyone has arrived does the excess strategy talk start. Then 4 seperate lots of shot prep and extra blabbing, rinse and repeat.

 

From my experience in many, many scrambles, I've found this to be true for us.

[Truman]

The responsibility is to stay up with the group ahead if you. Not to keep ahead of the group behind you.