My P6 for MizunoJoe

[iteachgolf]

Legs and pelvis perhaps would help me understand lower body mechanics a little better. I had a hell of a time trying to integrate the "faster arms" feel although I got awesome results, my stupid brain keeps getting in my way and a bunch of wacky sequencing problems crept into my pivot, exacerbated by a misunderstanding of how far open the hips are at impact. So this thread is great, and has helped me realize you can have open hips AND arms not trailing behind.

 

The key is the right hip staying deep as left side clears out of the way. This actually shifts your tailbone away from the target line more behind your heels. If you try to turn by getting right hip working out immediately you'll have all sorts of issues.

[Golfah]

Excellent thanks. To your point about prioritization, this was an old thought of mine because I could literally feel my right hip firing outward too fast, but without the (better) arm action, the fix wasn't giving the desired result.

[iteachgolf]

 

 

Ignore the small bounce in left foot. Sensor on foot came lose slightly just after impact. Can see how when hips are square coming down my right hip is still back over my right heel or even a touch behind. Not out over my toes. In fact right hip never gets out over my toes. Can also see going back hips stay centered between my feet from FO view (technically 0.1" toward the target at the top of the swing)

[Millbrook]

This is golden, many thanks for taking the time to show this Dan.

 

Will you be using it for feedback with online lessons?

 

It seems much easier to understand than seeing a real person.

[iteachgolf]

 

COM is basically centered at setup

 

 

In the backswing the COM shifts AWAY from the target and UP as you turn and the hips come out of their forward flexion at address.

 

 

In transition (this is p5.5) the COM shifts forward, down (this is hips going back into flexion), and backwards (also caused by hips going into flexion without right hip working out towards the ball immediately)

 

 

And at impact you can see COM moves further forward and comes back UP as hips and legs begin extending.

 

 

These make it pretty easy to see how hips extend going back, increase flexion coming down, and then extend again through impact. This is "using the ground" for leverage creating maximum speed and stability.

[jurr80]

Very interesting stuff, Dan.

So when you guys talk about the right arm straightening, it's WHERE that right arm straightens that is the deal, right? Hand path related?

 

The right arm would be straightening out and away instead of pulling straight down? Almost like extensor action? Maintaining width or even feeling like width is being added away from you?

[iteachgolf]

Very interesting stuff, Dan.

So when you guys talk about the right arm straightening, it's WHERE that right arm straightens that is the deal, right? Hand path related?

 

The right arm would be straightening out and away instead of pulling straight down? Almost like extensor action? Maintaining width or even feeling like width is being added away from you?

 

It's towards the ball. And it won't actually straighten right away due to inertia on the arms and club if pivot is right. Will begin straightening just before p5. At no point is it straight down. Arms arm extending out and forward as well. And pivot is carrying arms out. It's why handpath coming down is above the backswing

[hankmoody]

Dan- Am I correct that this is illustrating your point above that a key is "right hip staying deep as left side clears out of the way"?

 

And if so -- and this is exactly what I am working on right now--where are your arms when your right hip is over the right heel or slightly behind when hips square? And finally, how do I move the left hip in the transition without moving the right hip too?

 

The only way I can see moving the left side while keeping the right hip back is to -- on transition--move my left side diagonally and back as well, like I am squatting onto my left cheek? It's that move I can't seem to see in swings. Is it in the 3D and I am just missing it? Very possible, as I do not have a trained eye.

 

Thank you, as this is a really important issue in my ball striking right now.

 

 

 

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

Ignore the small bounce in left foot. Sensor on foot came lose slightly just after impact. Can see how when hips are square coming down my right hip is still back over my right heel or even a touch behind. Not out over my toes. In fact right hip never gets out over my toes. Can also see going back hips stay centered between my feet from FO view (technically 0.1" toward the target at the top of the swing)

[iteachgolf]

Dan- Am I correct that this is illustrating your point above that a key is "right hip staying deep as left side clears out of the way"?

 

And if so -- and this is exactly what I am working on right now--where are your arms when your right hip is over the right heel or slightly behind when hips square? And finally, how do I move the left hip in the transition without moving the right hip too?

 

The only way I can see moving the left side while keeping the right hip back is to -- on transition--move my left side diagonally and back as well, like I am squatting onto my left cheek? It's that move I can't seem to see in swings. Is it in the 3D and I am just missing it? Very possible, as I do not have a trained eye.

 

Thank you, as this is a really important issue in my ball striking right now.

 

 

 

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

Ignore the small bounce in left foot. Sensor on foot came lose slightly just after impact. Can see how when hips are square coming down my right hip is still back over my right heel or even a touch behind. Not out over my toes. In fact right hip never gets out over my toes. Can also see going back hips stay centered between my feet from FO view (technically 0.1" toward the target at the top of the swing)

 

When my hips are square my arms are just below chest high. The right hip will move forward. I said keeping it deep. Not keeping it still. Go put your butt against a wall. Make a backswing. Your right hip moves back to the wall and left hip moves off it. You'll notice so does your tailbone. It moves a few inches closer to the ball. In transition the left hip has to move back to the wall as right side stays in contact with the wall. This pushes your tailbone backwards. Which is exactly what should happen and it shows in the graph how COM moves negative direction in transition (thrust). The right will move slightly forward in transition but right but check will stay "on the wall" as left side works back and tailbone moves away from the target.

 

So right hip isn't staying perfectly still. It's needs to stay deep as left side gets back. This gives room for the arms. Once elbow gets down at p5.5 then right hip visibly starts working out.

[Golfah]

Very interesting stuff, Dan.

So when you guys talk about the right arm straightening, it's WHERE that right arm straightens that is the deal, right? Hand path related?

 

The right arm would be straightening out and away instead of pulling straight down? Almost like extensor action? Maintaining width or even feeling like width is being added away from you?

 

It's towards the ball. And it won't actually straighten right away due to inertia on the arms and club if pivot is right. Will begin straightening just before p5. At no point is it straight down. Arms arm extending out and forward as well. And pivot is carrying arms out. It's why handpath coming down is above the backswing

 

This is really key. Thanks Dan for the responses and posting of the 3D. Its easier to see and usderstand the movements isolated.

[hankmoody]

Dan- Am I correct that this is illustrating your point above that a key is "right hip staying deep as left side clears out of the way"?

 

And if so -- and this is exactly what I am working on right now--where are your arms when your right hip is over the right heel or slightly behind when hips square? And finally, how do I move the left hip in the transition without moving the right hip too?

 

The only way I can see moving the left side while keeping the right hip back is to -- on transition--move my left side diagonally and back as well, like I am squatting onto my left cheek? It's that move I can't seem to see in swings. Is it in the 3D and I am just missing it? Very possible, as I do not have a trained eye.

 

Thank you, as this is a really important issue in my ball striking right now.

 

 

 

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

Ignore the small bounce in left foot. Sensor on foot came lose slightly just after impact. Can see how when hips are square coming down my right hip is still back over my right heel or even a touch behind. Not out over my toes. In fact right hip never gets out over my toes. Can also see going back hips stay centered between my feet from FO view (technically 0.1" toward the target at the top of the swing)

 

When my hips are square my arms are just below chest high. The right hip will move forward. I said keeping it deep. Not keeping it still. Go put your butt against a wall. Make a backswing. Your right hip moves back to the wall and left hip moves off it. You'll notice so does your tailbone. It moves a few inches closer to the ball. In transition the left hip has to move back to the wall as right side stays in contact with the wall. This pushes your tailbone backwards. Which is exactly what should happen and it shows in the graph how COM moves negative direction in transition (thrust). The right will move slightly forward in transition but right but check will stay "on the wall" as left side works back and tailbone moves away from the target.

 

So right hip isn't staying perfectly still. It's needs to stay deep as left side gets back. This gives room for the arms. Once elbow gets down at p5.5 then right hip visibly starts working out.

 

Thank you--I didn't mean to imply right hip has no movement. But what you said next --bolded-- is exactly the feel I've been going for and getting, so I am psyched about that. And that feel of moving my tailbone backwards was what I was trying to articulate when I said the feel of squatting back onto my left cheek (in a kind of diagonal and back move). (while re-bending my right knee). I don't know what the COM graph means, and for my purposes I probably don't need to. But the proper hip movement creating room to move the arms is so important for me, as I'm not a long hitter. This has enabled me to really move at the ball. Feels good to be on the right track!

[PreppySlapCut]

DC, it's really not fair of you. Using data and proof in an internet discussion is not how this is supposed to work

Annddddd I spilled my water, Michael. Thanks...

[Forged4ever]

No wonder the average weekend warrior is awful.

Average?

 

How bout 98%, lol....

 

Nice post!

 

Fairways & Greens My Friend,

RP

[Forged4ever]

Sweet swings Dan, regardless of the year!!

 

Who the hell is MizunoJoe?

 

Does he even Play Mizzy?

 

His swing's fine as long as it is repeatable and goes where he aims it, which I'm guessin that it does, besides, it golf, not a beauty contest-

 

HaHa, so Mizzy, ya derail a thread or two???

 

Me too, that's why I always have my belt on :)

 

Have a nice eventing Gents!!

 

Golfingly Yours,

RP

[Psi high]

Legs and pelvis perhaps would help me understand lower body mechanics a little better. I had a hell of a time trying to integrate the "faster arms" feel although I got awesome results, my stupid brain keeps getting in my way and a bunch of wacky sequencing problems crept into my pivot, exacerbated by a misunderstanding of how far open the hips are at impact. So this thread is great, and has helped me realize you can have open hips AND arms not trailing behind.

 

The key is the right hip staying deep as left side clears out of the way. This actually shifts your tailbone away from the target line more behind your heels. If you try to turn by getting right hip working out immediately you'll have all sorts of issues.

 

Iteach,

Assuming a good position at the top, would keeping the weight in the right heel longer in transition make the right hip stay back and out of the way? Thanks

[iteachgolf]

Legs and pelvis perhaps would help me understand lower body mechanics a little better. I had a hell of a time trying to integrate the "faster arms" feel although I got awesome results, my stupid brain keeps getting in my way and a bunch of wacky sequencing problems crept into my pivot, exacerbated by a misunderstanding of how far open the hips are at impact. So this thread is great, and has helped me realize you can have open hips AND arms not trailing behind.

 

The key is the right hip staying deep as left side clears out of the way. This actually shifts your tailbone away from the target line more behind your heels. If you try to turn by getting right hip working out immediately you'll have all sorts of issues.

 

Iteach,

Assuming a good position at the top, would keeping the weight in the right heel longer in transition make the right hip stay back and out of the way? Thanks

 

Feels are very individual. It likely could help keep the right hip deeper but you won't know until you do it. I prefer to learn feel from mechanics than trying to learn mechanics from feels

[Cape]

Hey Dan, would back hip staying back longer be correlated to the right knee bend? Does the 3D system show changes in flex of knee throughout swing? Or would this number and flex change be more individualized?

[iteachgolf]

Hey Dan, would back hip staying back longer be correlated to the right knee bend? Does the 3D system show changes in flex of knee throughout swing? Or would this number and flex change be more individualized?

 

Visually yes. No angle number. Will be individual but both knees flex in transition. But right knee is often over flexed pulling right hip out towards the ball

[Cape]

Right knee flexes at start of transition, but generally when do you prefer the right knee to extend again in transition?

[iteachgolf]

Right knee flexes at start of transition, but generally when do you prefer the right knee to extend again in transition?

 

from p6 to impact.

[Silky]

 

COM is basically centered at setup

 

 

In the backswing the COM shifts AWAY from the target and UP as you turn and the hips come out of their forward flexion at address.

 

 

In transition (this is p5.5) the COM shifts forward, down (this is hips going back into flexion), and backwards (also caused by hips going into flexion without right hip working out towards the ball immediately)

 

 

And at impact you can see COM moves further forward and comes back UP as hips and legs begin extending.

 

 

These make it pretty easy to see how hips extend going back, increase flexion coming down, and then extend again through impact. This is "using the ground" for leverage creating maximum speed and stability.

 

Thanks, Dan, for this very valuable data.

Two questions -

1. What is the COM here - Center of Mass, is it the mass of the entire golfer's body? Where is it located in 3d space? Can I use the center of the pelvis as proxy?

2, I guess the thrust number is the distance of the COM from the target line, negative means away, positive means closer?

[iteachgolf]

 

COM is basically centered at setup

 

 

In the backswing the COM shifts AWAY from the target and UP as you turn and the hips come out of their forward flexion at address.

 

 

In transition (this is p5.5) the COM shifts forward, down (this is hips going back into flexion), and backwards (also caused by hips going into flexion without right hip working out towards the ball immediately)

 

 

And at impact you can see COM moves further forward and comes back UP as hips and legs begin extending.

 

 

These make it pretty easy to see how hips extend going back, increase flexion coming down, and then extend again through impact. This is "using the ground" for leverage creating maximum speed and stability.

 

Thanks, Dan, for this very valuable data.

Two questions -

1. What is the COM here - Center of Mass, is it the mass of the entire golfer's body? Where is it located in 3d space? Can I use the center of the pelvis as proxy?

2, I guess the thrust number is the distance of the COM from the target line, negative means away, positive means closer?

 

Yes on numbers 2. Center of mass is just below the belly button

[Fort Worth Pro]

 

COM is basically centered at setup

 

 

In the backswing the COM shifts AWAY from the target and UP as you turn and the hips come out of their forward flexion at address.

 

 

In transition (this is p5.5) the COM shifts forward, down (this is hips going back into flexion), and backwards (also caused by hips going into flexion without right hip working out towards the ball immediately)

 

 

And at impact you can see COM moves further forward and comes back UP as hips and legs begin extending.

 

 

These make it pretty easy to see how hips extend going back, increase flexion coming down, and then extend again through impact. This is "using the ground" for leverage creating maximum speed and stability.

 

Thanks, Dan, for this very valuable data.

Two questions -

1. What is the COM here - Center of Mass, is it the mass of the entire golfer's body? Where is it located in 3d space? Can I use the center of the pelvis as proxy?

2, I guess the thrust number is the distance of the COM from the target line, negative means away, positive means closer?

 

Yes on numbers 2. Center of mass is just below the belly button

 

Would add that because of forward flexion at address the center of mass can be just outside of the body about belt high.

[hankmoody]

I understand that chart now--thanks iteach.

 

Key move at transition, the center of mass "shifts forward, down (this is hips going back into flexion), and backwards (also caused by hips going into flexion without right hip working out towards the ball immediately) (quoting iteach above).

 

Speaking personally, I never got, or was shown, the hips going back into flexion and the backwards part. And because it enables the arms to swing down and through, fast, it's kind of a big deal in the swing.

 

I was taught "slide the hips" "fire the hips"...geez...the above is not that complicated. You'd think Golf Inc. was deliberately obfuscating instruction to keep us in the dark.

[iteachgolf]

I understand that chart now--thanks iteach.

 

Key move at transition, the center of mass "shifts forward, down (this is hips going back into flexion), and backwards (also caused by hips going into flexion without right hip working out towards the ball immediately) (quoting iteach above).

 

Speaking personally, I never got, or was shown, the hips going back into flexion and the backwards part. And because it enables the arms to swing down and through, fast, it's kind of a big deal in the swing.

 

I was taught "slide the hips" "fire the hips"...geez...the above is not that complicated. You'd think Golf Inc. was deliberately obfuscating instruction to keep us in the dark.

 

Many don't know they go back. That's not what looks like happens in 2D so unless someone actually understands what's going on or ha used 3D they likely wouldn't know

[hankmoody]

Exactly^^^

 

My disappointment with "Big Golf" is that, while 3D may be new, the correct move is not. It is a downright shame that much of the instructional canon was promulgated without a full understanding of what is going on (at least on this particular point) or perhaps an institutional inability to describe it to the audience.

 

And worse, I'll bet it is still going on today. I could probably go on YT or Golf Digest and find the same descriptions of the transition and pivot that were out there when I was first trying to get better in the late 90s. With so much money involved, and so many people trying so hard to play this game to the best of their abilities, it is just eye opening, and a source of amazement to me.

[MK7Golf21]

hey Dan, question about your swing. For this drill your backswing is different, shaft is more laid off coming back compared to full swing. Why is that and how come you don't do that in full swing, also do you do that usually for 1/2 - 3/4 shots?

 

 

 

 

[iteachgolf]

hey Dan, question about your swing. For this drill your backswing is different, shaft is more laid off coming back compared to full swing. Why is that and how come you don't do that in full swing, also do you do that usually for 1/2 - 3/4 shots?

 

 

 

 

 

Because I'm wider there and not setting it as soon as normal. Wider you get with later wrist hinge arms will rotate more sooner. All normal shots are at the ball or inside. But shots with no wrist hinge will likely point a bit outside. I don't do it in my full swing because it's too fade/pull biased. Shaft will steepen and club kick out. Swing too left and face will close. Same reason I told you not to do it. In my normal swing my baseline is already a few degrees left.

 

Basically it was a sloppy swing because I was focus on doing other pieces slightly exaggerated compared to my normal swing which changed up how I load the club causing it to over rotate.

[MK7Golf21]

hey Dan, question about your swing. For this drill your backswing is different, shaft is more laid off coming back compared to full swing. Why is that and how come you don't do that in full swing, also do you do that usually for 1/2 - 3/4 shots?

 

 

 

 

 

Because I'm wider there and not setting it as soon as normal. Wider you get with later wrist hinge arms will rotate more sooner. All normal shots are at the ball or inside. But shots with no wrist hinge will likely point a bit outside. I don't do it in my full swing because it's too fade/pull biased. Shaft will steepen and club kick out. Swing too left and face will close. Same reason I told you not to do it. In my normal swing my baseline is already a few degrees left.

 

Basically it was a sloppy swing because I was focus on doing other pieces slightly exaggerated compared to my normal swing which changed up how I load the club causing it to over rotate.

 

Thanks Dan, yea I remember when you helped me get me back on track. Was first time an instructor kinda screwed up my swing, he wanted to fix narrow and across the line. He did but got me way on the other extreme, although I've never had a problem with being narrow or across the line again.

[dachtor]

hey Dan, question about your swing. For this drill your backswing is different, shaft is more laid off coming back compared to full swing. Why is that and how come you don't do that in full swing, also do you do that usually for 1/2 - 3/4 shots?

 

 

 

 

 

Because I'm wider there and not setting it as soon as normal. Wider you get with later wrist hinge arms will rotate more sooner. All normal shots are at the ball or inside. But shots with no wrist hinge will likely point a bit outside. I don't do it in my full swing because it's too fade/pull biased. Shaft will steepen and club kick out. Swing too left and face will close. Same reason I told you not to do it. In my normal swing my baseline is already a few degrees left.

 

Basically it was a sloppy swing because I was focus on doing other pieces slightly exaggerated compared to my normal swing which changed up how I load the club causing it to over rotate.

 

^^^^^ this guy has no clue what he is talking about......... LOL (that was sarcasm folks).