My P6 for MizunoJoe

[Silky]

Iteach Dan,

 

I just wonder regarding the extension-flexion-extension cycle, during the flexion, do you have a brief period of allowing the body to freefall, as in preparing to jump up?

[iteachgolf]

I don't know about freefall. I don't feel freefall when jumping. I feel loading and then unloading. I don't even feel the downswing flexion then extension when I swing . I feel extension in the backswing and that's it. The other I've done since I was 5 years old. Completely subconscious at this point. Just because I or someone else talks about WHAT is happening doesn't mean you must actually think about it happening

[QB74]

Very cool. So ideally with most good ball strikers, where are hands at P6? By zipper?

 

Depends on the shot the player is trying to hit and their pattern. I'd say touch outside right leg to zipper. So let's say a 1ft range between outstep and zipper for most good ball strikers. Many amateurs are a foot or so behind the right foot and above hip high vs mid thigh high

 

Why is that, or what does the amateur have to do to get the hands over the thigh?

[goatbarn]

They're stuck, casting, because they have to. Saying what does the amatuer have to do to get hands over thigh at P6 may be similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower, with no information.

 

The answer would be get your arms more forward in relation to your pivot, ie get unstuck...but the how is what is called golf instruction and is not an answer that is the same for any 2 people.

[MonteScheinblum]

They're stuck, casting, because they have to. Saying what does the amatuer have to do to get hands over thigh at P6 may be similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower, with no information.

 

The answer would be get your arms more forward in relation to your pivot, ie get unstuck...but the how is what is called golf instruction and is not an answer that is the same for any 2 people.

 

Hold lag with passive arms and a non timing based pivot driven swing.

 

Great post.

[QB74]

similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower...

 

I think Dan had an answer to that before: Hit it better!

 

Maybe there is a generalized answer appropriate for an Internet forum like: the majority of amateurs lose their angles early because....

 

1. Disconnected backswing

2. Arms overrun

3. Can't get the left arm off the chest

4. Club face too open at p5/p6

5. Want to hit up, etc....

 

What's the most common an instructor sees?

 

[QB74]

They're stuck, casting, because they have to. Saying what does the amatuer have to do to get hands over thigh at P6 may be similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower, with no information.

 

The answer would be get your arms more forward in relation to your pivot, ie get unstuck...but the how is what is called golf instruction and is not an answer that is the same for any 2 people.

 

Hold lag with passive arms and a non timing based pivot driven swing.

 

Great post.

 

Is this really what you see most?

[Hoot151]

I don't know about freefall. I don't feel freefall when jumping. I feel loading and then unloading. I don't even feel the downswing flexion then extension when I swing . I feel extension in the backswing and that's it. The other I've done since I was 5 years old. Completely subconscious at this point. Just because I or someone else talks about WHAT is happening doesn't mean you must actually think about it happening

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if the 'jumping-load-and-unload' motion is easier to ingrain for kids because they don't have the strength to swing the club around them any other way. It seems to be something I see in people who learned as kids, not so much for people who learned as adults. Speaking personally, I didn't pick up a club until I was 19 and I've fought long and hard to get this kind of pivot action and still don't have it. Part of the problem is I never read anything about it in 'Golf My Way', which was my only instructor for the first 10 years of my golfing life.

[iteachgolf]

I don't know about freefall. I don't feel freefall when jumping. I feel loading and then unloading. I don't even feel the downswing flexion then extension when I swing . I feel extension in the backswing and that's it. The other I've done since I was 5 years old. Completely subconscious at this point. Just because I or someone else talks about WHAT is happening doesn't mean you must actually think about it happening

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if the 'jumping-load-and-unload' motion is easier to ingrain for kids because they don't have the strength to swing the club around them any other way. It seems to be something I see in people who learned as kids, not so much for people who learned as adults. Speaking personally, I didn't pick up a club until I was 19 and I've fought long and hard to get this kind of pivot action and still don't have it. Part of the problem is I never read anything about it in 'Golf My Way', which was my only instructor for the first 10 years of my golfing life.

 

I see way more kids who never regain flexion and early extend massively than that do the sequence correct. Any move is easier to learn as a kid. They are more open to change and more comfortable at being uncomfortable. Adults have a harder time pushing through comfort zones. It's not because it's a natural move for kids. It can be learned by almost anyone.

[goatbarn]

They're stuck, casting, because they have to. Saying what does the amatuer have to do to get hands over thigh at P6 may be similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower, with no information.

 

The answer would be get your arms more forward in relation to your pivot, ie get unstuck...but the how is what is called golf instruction and is not an answer that is the same for any 2 people.

 

Hold lag with passive arms and a non timing based pivot driven swing.

 

Great post.

 

You need to stop telling me good post, its going to go to my head and I'm going to act like I know something.

[Hoot151]

I don't know about freefall. I don't feel freefall when jumping. I feel loading and then unloading. I don't even feel the downswing flexion then extension when I swing . I feel extension in the backswing and that's it. The other I've done since I was 5 years old. Completely subconscious at this point. Just because I or someone else talks about WHAT is happening doesn't mean you must actually think about it happening

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if the 'jumping-load-and-unload' motion is easier to ingrain for kids because they don't have the strength to swing the club around them any other way. It seems to be something I see in people who learned as kids, not so much for people who learned as adults. Speaking personally, I didn't pick up a club until I was 19 and I've fought long and hard to get this kind of pivot action and still don't have it. Part of the problem is I never read anything about it in 'Golf My Way', which was my only instructor for the first 10 years of my golfing life.

 

I see way more kids who never regain flexion and early extend massively than that do the sequence correct. Any move is easier to learn as a kid. They are more open to change and more comfortable at being uncomfortable. Adults have a harder time pushing through comfort zones. It's not because it's a natural move for kids. It can be learned by almost anyone.

 

Fair enough. Probably just a LOFT problem on my part.

[MonteScheinblum]

They're stuck, casting, because they have to. Saying what does the amatuer have to do to get hands over thigh at P6 may be similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower, with no information.

 

The answer would be get your arms more forward in relation to your pivot, ie get unstuck...but the how is what is called golf instruction and is not an answer that is the same for any 2 people.

 

Hold lag with passive arms and a non timing based pivot driven swing.

 

Great post.

 

You need to stop telling me good post, its going to go to my head and I'm going to act like I know something.

 

Like I always say. I aspire to be half as great as I claim to be.

[goatbarn]

They're stuck, casting, because they have to. Saying what does the amatuer have to do to get hands over thigh at P6 may be similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower, with no information.

 

The answer would be get your arms more forward in relation to your pivot, ie get unstuck...but the how is what is called golf instruction and is not an answer that is the same for any 2 people.

 

Hold lag with passive arms and a non timing based pivot driven swing.

 

Great post.

 

You need to stop telling me good post, its going to go to my head and I'm going to act like I know something.

 

Like I always say. I aspire to be half as great as I claim to be.

 

"That's understandable!" - ________________

 

Eh?

[Silky]

I don't know about freefall. I don't feel freefall when jumping. I feel loading and then unloading. I don't even feel the downswing flexion then extension when I swing . I feel extension in the backswing and that's it. The other I've done since I was 5 years old. Completely subconscious at this point. Just because I or someone else talks about WHAT is happening doesn't mean you must actually think about it happening

 

Thanks for the explanation, Dan. It is just that I suspect myself being so fixated about maintaining the spine forward tilt that I might not have this action in my repertoire. But if it is a good measuring device and it is telling you WHAT is happening I must think that it ACTUALLY is happening in a great swing.

[Silky]

They're stuck, casting, because they have to. Saying what does the amatuer have to do to get hands over thigh at P6 may be similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower, with no information.

 

The answer would be get your arms more forward in relation to your pivot, ie get unstuck...but the how is what is called golf instruction and is not an answer that is the same for any 2 people.

 

Hold lag with passive arms and a non timing based pivot driven swing.

 

Great post.

 

OK, Monte. I yield to you about passive arms. To be unstuck, how about maintaining the position of the right elbow relative to the torso as Iteach preaches and allow the right triceps extension action to open up the angle at the right elbow as you mentioned a couple of times.

[MonteScheinblum]

They're stuck, casting, because they have to. Saying what does the amatuer have to do to get hands over thigh at P6 may be similar to asking what do I have to do to shoot 10 strokes lower, with no information.

 

The answer would be get your arms more forward in relation to your pivot, ie get unstuck...but the how is what is called golf instruction and is not an answer that is the same for any 2 people.

 

Hold lag with passive arms and a non timing based pivot driven swing.

 

Great post.

 

OK, Monte. I yield to you about passive arms. To be unstuck, how about maintaining the position of the right elbow relative to the torso as Iteach preaches and allow the right triceps extension action to open up the angle at the right elbow as you mentioned a couple of times.

 

Sounds good to me

[QB74]

Very cool. So ideally with most good ball strikers, where are hands at P6? By zipper?

 

Depends on the shot the player is trying to hit and their pattern. I'd say touch outside right leg to zipper. So let's say a 1ft range between outstep and zipper for most good ball strikers. Many amateurs are a foot or so behind the right foot and above hip high vs mid thigh high

 

Why is that, or what does the amateur have to do to get the hands over the thigh?

 

 

Here is the answer to that question from Mike Emery: The most prominent reason is in an attempt to square the club in time for impact.

 

Also watch this:

 

[iteachgolf]

I've said multiple times amateurs do what they do out of necessity. It's exactly what goatbarn told you. The reason they got out of position can be a ton of things. Arms out of position in the backswing, poor sequencing in transition, not a deep enough hip/shoulder turn going back, club face too open, right shoulder too high or too forward, and the list could go on. Then the reasons for those could be almost limitless. There is no standard root cause except that have to do it. They flip at it and throw it away because thats the only way they can hit the ball.

[QB74]

I know that already, never disputed it, of course they do that in order to hit the ball but maybe you with your teaching experience had seen one prominent pattern/cause for this. And that's something I don't know/cannot know hence a simple and legitimate question.

 

Mike emery said in his book now that the main cause is the open club face. I find that quite interesting: open club face == flip, no amount of holding off can fix that (as you said), just contrary, if club faced closed early you can let go and still have shaft lean. I had not seen this explained like this before!

[iteachgolf]

And sorry but that "pull" feel where left arm becomes more across the chest in transition is exactly what gets most people "stuck". It's what happens but is what's always going to happen due the the arms having way more inertia on them and are going to automatically resist changing direction much more so than the body. When you try to do that it's asking to WAY over do it because it was already going to happen. Especially because the overwhelming majority of golfers aren't in pitch elbow at the top. So if you "pull" with left side and let arm move more across your chest and aren't in pitch elbow at the top of the swing your right elbow is going not only get behind you but move way behind you rapidly, as it's moving the opposite direction of the body. What he also misses is that the arms extend only steepen the club if they extend straight downward. If they extend outward as your pivot with right side moving closer to the ground the club will flatten massively. In fact many of the guys who flatten the shaft significantly in transition have hands moving away from the right shoulder immediately in transition. It all depends on the direction the arms are extending. Every example of him extending the arms is down with right shoulder staying up and right elbow way above the left. But if right side worked down and extended out the right arm would be well under the left and the shaft would get nearly horizontal.

 

Also wrong about clubface alignments, those are tied to grip and wrist alignments. He can't have it both ways. If extending the arms steepens the shaft it also dramatically shuts the face. The shaft is steepening because the arms are rotating faster than wrist are uncocking meaning clubface is shutting and the clubhead is kicking out, which is easy to see as his demonstrates steepening the shaft. If the pulling feel lays the club down more it's becoming more open. So it can't be both steepening and becoming more open. And can see in his demo plain as day when steepening vs shallowing the face is. It either steepening and shutting or flattening and becoming more open. It cannot steepen and become more open while maintaining the same wrist alignments. Just like it cannot be flattening and closing while maintaining the same wrist alignments.

 

Two his idea that the same feel is always going to produce different results so it's not useful is true about ANY feel. We feel different everyday. It's why I've said constantly you cannot learn mechanics from feel. Period. You learn feel from mechanics and you can use feel to reproduce those mechanics but that feel is going to change constantly. You do the mechanics correctly and whatever it feels like it feels like. And it won't be the same tomorrow as it was today. Which is why trying to learn mechanics from feel is a recipe for disaster.

[iteachgolf]

I know that already, never disputed it, of course they do that in order to hit the ball but maybe you with your teaching experience had seen one prominent pattern/cause for this. And that's something I don't know/cannot know hence a simple and legitimate question.

 

Mike emery said in his book now that the main cause is the open club face. I find that quite interesting: open club face == flip, no amount of holding off can fix that (as you said), just contrary, if club faced closed early you can let go and still have shaft lean. I had not seen this explained like this before!

 

Then you haven't been looking. Almost every time a flip is talked about its discussed with an open face. Getting hands forward and more shaft lean keeps the face open longer. So obviously if the face is open you absolutely can't have the hands forward as that'd make everything exponentially worse. This is literally talked about here and elsewhere constantly.

[QB74]

Thanks! A lot to digest now ;)

[QB74]

Just briefly in defense of mike, in his book he does mention the elbow position at the top and that you cannot recover if it slips away, plus he goes very much into detail about the grip and why it has to be that way in order to square the club.

 

Also the opening of the face by flattening the shaft is counteracted by the frisbee flexion.

[Golfbeat]

What is the definition of a pitch elbow versus a punch elbow, in particular at the top? My search on this Forum did not give the real answers.

[iteachgolf]

Just briefly in defense of mike, in his book he does mention the elbow position at the top and that you cannot recover if it slips away, plus he goes very much into detail about the grip and why it has to be that way in order to square the club.

 

Also the opening of the face by flattening the shaft is counteracted by the frisbee flexion.

 

He goes into detail about his pattern. Those aren't universal truths.

 

You missed my point. He says it steepens the shaft and opens face. That's not possible. Just like you cannot flatten the shaft and close the face without manipulating the wrist conditions. Which is exactly what he's doing with "frisbee flexion". He says left wrist should be bowing through impact. Which it absolutely shouldn't be doing. I could go on but this thread isn't about him.

[iteachgolf]

What is the definition of a pitch elbow versus a punch elbow, in particular at the top? My search on this Forum did not give the real answers.

 

Elbow leading vs behind hands. Externally rotated rear shoulder vs internally rotated. Basically elbow location restive to shoulder and your side

[QB74]

Just briefly in defense of mike, in his book he does mention the elbow position at the top and that you cannot recover if it slips away, plus he goes very much into detail about the grip and why it has to be that way in order to square the club.

 

Also the opening of the face by flattening the shaft is counteracted by the frisbee flexion.

 

He goes into detail about his pattern. Those aren't universal truths.

 

You missed my point. He says it steepens the shaft and opens face. That's not possible. Just like you cannot flatten the shaft and close the face without manipulating the wrist conditions. Which is exactly what he's doing with "frisbee flexion". He says left wrist should be bowing through impact. Which it absolutely shouldn't be doing. I could go on but this thread isn't about him.

 

Ok, I thought you might not be aware of his frisbee flexion.

[MK7Golf21]

Dan what do you think of a pressure plate? I think you would provide valuable feedback with pressure traces, would be cool to see your pressure trace

[MizunoJoe]

Just briefly in defense of mike, in his book he does mention the elbow position at the top and that you cannot recover if it slips away, plus he goes very much into detail about the grip and why it has to be that way in order to square the club.

 

Also the opening of the face by flattening the shaft is counteracted by the frisbee flexion.

 

He goes into detail about his pattern. Those aren't universal truths.

 

You missed my point. He says it steepens the shaft and opens face. That's not possible. Just like you cannot flatten the shaft and close the face without manipulating the wrist conditions. Which is exactly what he's doing with "frisbee flexion". He says left wrist should be bowing through impact. Which it absolutely shouldn't be doing. I could go on but this thread isn't about him.

 

Ok, I thought you might not be aware of his frisbee flexion.

 

If he had read the book, he might know better. He doesn't understand Mike's swing. The left wrist is in max flexion before impact. It is sustained through impact, and is an essential part of the swing.

[blehnhard]

There should be no "sustaining" of anything during a swing. Angles are always in a state of "increasing or decreasing" throughout the swing. The Lead Wrist may reach max flexion before impact but as soon as it does, it should begin moving towards extension. It may still be "flexed" at impact but it is not a "held" position.