PGA Drivers - Adjustable, Bonded, Both?

[roundersmitty]

Ok...I read from a reputable source (I won't disclose who) that the drivers pros use are bonded. For example they will have a 915 driver, but it will be manufactured to be bonded to the pros specs. Yesterday Rory was tightening his driver, so it can't be all.

 

Is there any truth to this? Anyone know what percentages of drivers that seem adjustable that are made bonded for pros?

[chicagolongball]

No. They play adjustable drivers just like we play. Same thing happened to Langer on the Champions Tour not long ago, where he had to tighten it back up because the shaft had started to loosen up.

[Stuart_G]

Yes. Also saw Rory just tightened his on the (I think) 18th tee yesterday. Seen Phil do it on a few occasions as well. Also seen several vids of the TM and Ping Tour vans techs gluing on adapters to the shafts and screwing on the heads normally as they prepared the drivers for the tour players. Nor seen any "tour issue" bonded versions of any of the adjustable models show up in the normal places the tour issue stuff makes its way out to the general public.

 

Seen sever similar "reports" posted here (all supposedly from "reputable sources") in the forum but never seen anything that could actually validate any of those reports, even a little.

[roundersmitty]

Ok. Thx for the quick replies. I will not reveal the source because I don't want to cause "drama" here on WRX. I was just curious.

[buckeyefl]

It's a combination of the two.

[DavePelz4]

Think it depends on the player...

[PinonMagnolia]

Doesn't Tiger still go bonded? There are definitely some TM guys who go bonded, look at the ones using Aeroburners.

 

I wish Ping made a bonded driver, the feel is better to me.

[Bimmer1]

Sneds new Bridgestone JGR is a bonded driver. Doesn't come with an adapter.

[zip7111]

There are certain tour issue prototype models that have bonded hosels. The RBZ stage 2 driver is the one that comes to mind that was both bonded and adjustable.

[roundersmitty]

Doesn't Tiger still go bonded? There are definitely some TM guys who go bonded, look at the ones using Aeroburners.

 

I wish Ping made a bonded driver, the feel is better to me.

 

I'm talking about bonded versions of adjustable models made to the pros specs. Like a M1 or 915 driver only available to the public in adjustable version...made bonded specifically for the pro. Seems from the responses it's very rare, or a myth.

[Seaze21]

I would mostly figure it depends on the player. If someone wants a bonded variant of an adjustable driver I'm sure TM or Callaway would make it happen for them.

[patrick421]

Doesn't Tiger still go bonded? There are definitely some TM guys who go bonded, look at the ones using Aeroburners.

 

I wish Ping made a bonded driver, the feel is better to me.

 

I'm talking about bonded versions of adjustable models made to the pros specs. Like a M1 or 915 driver only available to the public in adjustable version...made bonded specifically for the pro. Seems from the responses it's very rare, or a myth.

 

Why don't you give some specific examples your "source" told you without naming your "source" if you are concerned with that. With Greg's pictures and the amount of knowledge people have on here about who plays what I think you'd get some answers pretty quick.

[AC168]

Bonded may be more efficient in terms of ball speed ... Heard this from a golf industry friend years ago right when the adjustability rule passed.

[gvogel]

Bonded may be more efficient in terms of ball speed ... Heard this from a golf industry friend years ago right when the adjustability rule passed.

 

From a physics standpoint, I would find this very hard to believe. By the time that the driver head gets to the ball, it is pretty much floating along, often with a little forward shaft bend. What happens at impact is determined by face angle, where contact is made on the face, and the internal forces of the driver head. This is to say that the driver head/shaft connection could be quite loose, and as long as the hit is center contact with a square face, the ball flight would be just fine.

[Golfer from MO]

Bonded may be more efficient in terms of ball speed ... Heard this from a golf industry friend years ago right when the adjustability rule passed.

 

From a physics standpoint, I would find this very hard to believe. By the time that the driver head gets to the ball, it is pretty much floating along, often with a little forward shaft bend. What happens at impact is determined by face angle, where contact is made on the face, and the internal forces of the driver head. This is to say that the driver head/shaft connection could be quite loose, and as long as the hit is center contact with a square face, the ball flight would be just fine.

No hes talking BALLSPEED not ballflight and hes right on 1-2 mph of ballspeed is lost with adjustable clubs but thats not much. Any point there is vibration loss which is energy lowers efficiency. These guys just have the loss so small its negligible but in a contest of pure measurement on perfect strikes bonded wins.

[Bad9]

Bonded may be more efficient in terms of ball speed ... Heard this from a golf industry friend years ago right when the adjustability rule passed.

 

From a physics standpoint, I would find this very hard to believe. By the time that the driver head gets to the ball, it is pretty much floating along, often with a little forward shaft bend. What happens at impact is determined by face angle, where contact is made on the face, and the internal forces of the driver head. This is to say that the driver head/shaft connection could be quite loose, and as long as the hit is center contact with a square face, the ball flight would be just fine.

No hes talking BALLSPEED not ballflight and hes right on 1-2 mph of ballspeed is lost with adjustable clubs but thats not much. Any point there is vibration loss which is energy lowers efficiency. These guys just have the loss so small its negligible but in a contest of pure measurement on perfect strikes bonded wins.

 

I would be interested to see the evidence that proves this. As I would guess are many others.

[AC168]

To the best of my recollection, this happened right around the time the USGA approved adjustability. I asked him if all drivers would become adjustable, and he said not necessarily. In fact, his company was thinking about not even making any adjustable drivers. I asked him why and he mentioned the adapter is a net drag on ball speed because the weight from the adapter would have to be moved away from the existing CG and then distributed differently/adjusted in the head or something like that to get things back to where they were.

 

More simply, there is a trade-off for what the adjustability gets you in terms of optimal launch/spin/look/face angle versus the higher swing speed and/or ball speed from a bonded driver. I asked him if it was a few to 5 yards difference and he said probably.

 

A few years ago I hit a bonded vs. close to identical fairway wood and the bonded had slightly higher ball speed numbers -- though I have to caveat it was not an identical club and it was my swing and not a robot.

[starrman77]

If you find the specs that suit you, you can always bond it there. A little epoxy in the adjusting mechanism and your done.

[AC168]

Yes ... If the specs are there I would always choose bonded.

[Ri_Redneck]

To the best of my recollection, this happened right around the time the USGA approved adjustability. I asked him if all drivers would become adjustable, and he said not necessarily. In fact, his company was thinking about not even making any adjustable drivers. I asked him why and he mentioned the adapter is a net drag on ball speed because the weight from the adapter would have to be moved away from the existing CG and then distributed differently/adjusted in the head or something like that to get things back to where they were.

 

More simply, there is a trade-off for what the adjustability gets you in terms of optimal launch/spin/look/face angle versus the higher swing speed and/or ball speed from a bonded driver. I asked him if it was a few to 5 yards difference and he said probably.

 

A few years ago I hit a bonded vs. close to identical fairway wood and the bonded had slightly higher ball speed numbers -- though I have to caveat it was not an identical club and it was my swing and not a robot.

 

GRENADE!!!!!!

 

BT

[hobbygolfer]

The answer is simple:

Just go to the R&A website or USGA website - if there was something like a bonded version of a 915 or M1/M2, that's approved for tournament play at that level, it has to be on that list. If not - it either doesn't exist or was never submitted, which makes it impossible to use in a USGA or R&A sancioned event.

 

There are some prototypes on that list made for one or two specific players, but as long as any given player wants to use them - the heads have to be on "the list".

 

Regards,

Michael

[Jc0]

Bonded may be more efficient in terms of ball speed ... Heard this from a golf industry friend years ago right when the adjustability rule passed.

 

From a physics standpoint, I would find this very hard to believe. By the time that the driver head gets to the ball, it is pretty much floating along, often with a little forward shaft bend. What happens at impact is determined by face angle, where contact is made on the face, and the internal forces of the driver head. This is to say that the driver head/shaft connection could be quite loose, and as long as the hit is center contact with a square face, the ball flight would be just fine.

No hes talking BALLSPEED not ballflight and hes right on 1-2 mph of ballspeed is lost with adjustable clubs but thats not much. Any point there is vibration loss which is energy lowers efficiency. These guys just have the loss so small its negligible but in a contest of pure measurement on perfect strikes bonded wins.

 

I would be interested to see the evidence that proves this. As I would guess are many others.

 

You don't loose ball speed. If you are loosing ball speed then you need to tighten the screw. A tight screw and epoxy do the same job. A screw can just come loose over time. Now for the actual difference is the weighting/forgiveness of the clubs. With an adjustable driver the area around the hosel has to be reinforced vs a standard hosel (also adapters are heavier than just a shaft). This moves the cg to left and more forward in the head. It also allows less weight to be used in other spots which is why the first adjustable drivers seemed much less forgiving. Now days manufacturers have improved the reinforcements so they use less weight and use lighter weight materials in the adapters so forgiveness is more equal now.

[TomWishon]

To the best of my recollection, this happened right around the time the USGA approved adjustability. I asked him if all drivers would become adjustable, and he said not necessarily. In fact, his company was thinking about not even making any adjustable drivers. I asked him why and he mentioned the adapter is a net drag on ball speed because the weight from the adapter would have to be moved away from the existing CG and then distributed differently/adjusted in the head or something like that to get things back to where they were.

 

More simply, there is a trade-off for what the adjustability gets you in terms of optimal launch/spin/look/face angle versus the higher swing speed and/or ball speed from a bonded driver. I asked him if it was a few to 5 yards difference and he said probably.

 

 

Boy, what this person told you is a load of malarkey.

 

If the head designer(s) did not allow for the added mass in the hosel of the sleeve when setting up the design of the head to have the CG in a proper position, then the designer was an idiot. And since the bigs tend to not have idiots working in the design side, there is no way the possible effect of the weight in the sleeve was not taken into account in the design of the head. This info from this person is just not true.

 

As to you hitting a driver without a sleeve different in performance, you said it yourself with regard to different specs/attributes in the clubs. For good players like you are with much more repeating swings, small differences in one, two or more specs most certainly will result in differences in performance.

[AC168]

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for chiming-in on this. Let me expand a little on this and then ask you a question at the end which I think is what we all want to know ... but let me expand on what my friend was telling me.

 

Let's say his company had model X out that was bonded -- there are no adapters out yet and they are in process of creating prototypes for an adapter. We know that the adapter weighs something. What my friend was saying was to basically create X but adjustable, the adjustment in weight would create an inferior driver (not accounting for better fitting / optimal launch conditions) because you would have to take away weight from where it was to "give" it to the adapter. With this adjustment, he was saying there is a loss of ball speed ... is this possible? (In reality, they came-out with driver Y which was adjustable and had further design improvements versus X so we'll never know a true answer.)

 

Then the question that I think we all want to know ... let's say we know exactly the perfect specs for us (forget about different conditions, different courses, etc.) ... let's pretend we know exactly the perfect driver head / shaft for us -- lie angle, face angle, etc. If there is a bonded version versus an adjustable version (which I know won't be exactly the same but let's say it's close) ... will there be a difference in performance?

 

I know I'm asking a mythical impossible question ... but what is the "Price" of having an adjustable version if you can get a bonded version with the perfect specs? Is it 0 yards ... maybe 5 yards? Would one be more forgiving? I understand why amateurs would want an adjustable version or need one for fitting, but it surprises me that there are as many tour pros as there are who use bonded drivers (though that number is dwindling also).

[netos3]

I previously worked at a facility that holds a PGA Tour Event. During that time, I had access to the tour trailers and driving range. The guys in the trailers were building the shafts with adjustable tips, they would screw the shafts into the heads, give the finished product to the players. The drivers and shafts, other than being tour issued, are the same as what the average Joe plays.

[Ri_Redneck]

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for chiming-in on this. Let me expand a little on this and then ask you a question at the end which I think is what we all want to know ... but let me expand on what my friend was telling me.

 

Let's say his company had model X out that was bonded -- there are no adapters out yet and they are in process of creating prototypes for an adapter. We know that the adapter weighs something. What my friend was saying was to basically create X but adjustable, the adjustment in weight would create an inferior driver (not accounting for better fitting / optimal launch conditions) because you would have to take away weight from where it was to "give" it to the adapter. With this adjustment, he was saying there is a loss of ball speed ... is this possible? (In reality, they came-out with driver Y which was adjustable and had further design improvements versus X so we'll never know a true answer.)

 

Then the question that I think we all want to know ... let's say we know exactly the perfect specs for us (forget about different conditions, different courses, etc.) ... let's pretend we know exactly the perfect driver head / shaft for us -- lie angle, face angle, etc. If there is a bonded version versus an adjustable version (which I know won't be exactly the same but let's say it's close) ... will there be a difference in performance?

 

I know I'm asking a mythical impossible question ... but what is the "Price" of having an adjustable version if you can get a bonded version with the perfect specs? Is it 0 yards ... maybe 5 yards? Would one be more forgiving? I understand why amateurs would want an adjustable version or need one for fitting, but it surprises me that there are as many tour pros as there are who use bonded drivers (though that number is dwindling also).

 

I am in no way answering for Tom, but I do have an opinion to add here. Your second paragraph falls right into what Tom said about design engineers. If they want to design an adjustable driver, they design the whole thing (taking the adapter mass into consideration). They don't just design an adapter and then take an existing bonded head and bore out the hosel to accept it. Sure, adjustable and bonded models that are similar LOOK al lot alike, but they are designed separately.

 

If two clubheads are designed to perform the same (launch, spin, COG, MOI, etc...), they will do just that, regardless of whether one uses an adapter and the other does not.

 

For your last question, I used the Titleist 975 LFE for years because it was as close to perfect as I had found. I had a 9.5 that I used when I needed maximum carry, and I had an 7.5 that I used when the courses were dry and running to give me more rollout. The clubs were exactly identical except for the head loft. Same shaft, grip, weight and balance. With adjustables, I can do the same thing with ONE club by just changing it to suit the conditions. As long as I don't misplace my wrench, I'm good to go.

 

Sure, "set it and forget it" works for the majority of golfers, but for others, the advantages of adjustable woods is a godsend.

 

BT

[AC168]

Let me ask this question slightly differently as I don't think the core question is getting addressed ... Say you had unlimited resources and are going to build the best possible driver for you ... Would the driver be bonded or adjustable? I would bet bonded. (You could have a different driver for different conditions, etc.).

 

Question 2 is how big of a difference in performance would there be between the bonded and adjustable? Is it closer to 1 yard or nothing or 5 yards. And this gets back to the weight of the adapter ...

 

(Whether it is worth it and whether you are selling it are totally different questions.)