Handicap Discrimination?

[Ogre41]

It seems to me that recently a little rift has shown up between some of the members. That high handicappers are getting thrown around a bit because we (I am a 22) don't have the same skill set that some of our lower handicap members have. Being one of the high handicap equipment junkies that frequent this site I wanna know what we do that gets some of the rest of your blood boiling? I would honestly like to know what not to do. Just a thought.

[Sean2]

High handicappers don't bother me. What annoys me with any golfer is if he gets angry, starts cursing, and tossing clubs around, etc.

 

For me, it's all about attitude, whether you're scratch or a 30 HI.

 

At the same time I don't care much for the arrogance some of the better golfer's show to their less skilled brethern. We all have to start somewhere.

 

Hey, we're all out there to have some fun...this isn't the PGA. :-)

[taylormadefan]

Just to clarify, are you talking about on GolfWRX, or at your local golf club?

[Ogre41]

Just to clarify, are you talking about on GolfWRX, or at your local golf club?

 

 

I'm referring to some of the threads that I have read here.

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

It seems to me that recently a little rift has shown up between some of the members. That high handicappers are getting thrown around a bit because we (I am a 22) don't have the same skill set that some of our lower handicap members have. Being one of the high handicap equipment junkies that frequent this site I wanna know what we do that gets some of the rest of your blood boiling? I would honestly like to know what not to do. Just a thought.

 

I think you may be missinterpretting the posts (I'm assuming that you are talking about threads like the "Biggest Dislikes of golf" thread.)

 

As a, like, 72 handicap, I don't think anyone is complaining about high handicappers. I think they are complaining about players with no regard for other players on the course. As a high-capper, I feel a responsibility to make sure my play is not interferring with other people's enjoyment of the game.

 

There are posts in that same thread that could be applied to disrespectful low-cappers as well. For example, complaints about hitting into a slower group in front.

[Ogre41]

I think you may be missinterpretting the posts (I'm assuming that you are talking about threads like the "Biggest Dislikes of golf" thread.)

 

As a, like, 72 handicap, I don't think anyone is complaining about high handicappers. I think they are complaining about players with no regard for other players on the course. As a high-capper, I feel a responsibility to make sure my play is not interferring with other people's enjoyment of the game.

 

There are posts in that same thread that could be applied to disrespectful low-cappers as well. For example, complaints about hitting into a slower group in front.

 

 

I haven't looked at that one in a while. I wasn't thinking so much about that one as the sort of you suck at golf if you're a 20 that keeps coming up.

[stage1350]

I would suggest that high handicappers by their very nature, take more strokes. That's fine if you walk up, select a club, hit the ball, and start walking again.

 

The bigger complaint is slow play. It doesn't matter if you are a chop or a plus 'capper. If you have a 2 minute preshot routine, it's going to piss people off. If, after your 2 minute preshot routine, you only advance the ball 25 yards, it will piss people off that much quicker.

 

Therefore, I'd say that slow play combined with a high handicap individual is going to take a lot more heat. But I think it's a stretch to call it a war between high and low handicaps.

 

#1 complaint is always slow play.

[Dr Rangelove]

Be it a high handicapper or a low one, a wanker on the course is a wanker anywhere. Is it possible that the offensive threads were directed at newbies and people with disregards toward etiquite? Maybe there was some misinterpitation somewhere, if not, just remember there will always be cocky golfers with their nose's high up in the air (and probably their bosses bum) looking down on others, it travels throughout their lives, not just on the course. On this site they're usually put in their place rather quickly.

[Grimace45]

#1 complaint is always slow play.

 

 

Agree 100%. It is only golf, pick a club, hit it and then go find it. Repeat for the next 17 holes.

[idrive400yards]

Don't be discouraged if your a high handicapper as long as you don't delay the pace of play. That person who said that I suck because I'm a 20 handicapp was just jealous of the length I have off the tee(he most likely plays off the foward tees hence his "Australian 5 handicapp") and would shoot over 100 if he hit from the tips or play the length of courses that I play on. There are more mid to high handicappers than there are low handicappers, and some of the low handicappers may even be higher than they post because of forgetting how to count when posting a score for handicapp purposes(ashamed to be called a mid to high handicapp I guess)

[artfulgolfer]

idrive400yards, just to clarify, a golfer who has a 5 handicap and normally plays from the forward tees is by definition a better golfer than someone with a higher handicap who plays from the back tees, regardless of the length of their drives. Handicap calculations factor in course ratings and slope. And yes, it is true that low handicappers often post lower scores than they actually shoot. That's because they may shoot a triple bogie or worse and are required to post scores no higher than a double. I had the misfortune of posting a 74 recently when I actually shot a 79. I wasn't happy about it, but it had nothing to do with being ashamed, it's the rules.

[DRGJR72]

Just a point.....

 

Everyone that played the game started out as a bad golfer, I don't know one person who picked up a club and was instantly a scratch golfer....I apologize for anybody that has made someone in the High Handicap range feel badly about the fact that they are not as good of a player yet.....That is really too bad to see that happen and see people be discouraged and angry because they are not as good....and the people who have become better players feel that they can bash the "choppers".....and I bet that most of the players that bash them are really not that good anyhow, relatively speaking......

 

I actually don't care who I play with....as long as it is a good time......My father in law is not that good....I am a professional.....and we have a blast out there, especially when he brings his buddies (and they are not that good either), or when I tee it with my pals that I grew up with....total comedy and they are horrible golfers.....

 

Golf is what you make of it.....if you go to the course with a good attitude and are ready to enjoy yourself and not take yourself or your game to seriously....then it is going to be fun for everybody....

 

DG

[sfdoddsy]

Don't be discouraged if your a high handicapper as long as you don't delay the pace of play. That person who said that I suck because I'm a 20 handicapp was just jealous of the length I have off the tee(he most likely plays off the foward tees hence his "Australian 5 handicapp") and would shoot over 100 if he hit from the tips or play the length of courses that I play on. There are more mid to high handicappers than there are low handicappers, and some of the low handicappers may even be higher than they post because of forgetting how to count when posting a score for handicapp purposes(ashamed to be called a mid to high handicapp I guess)

 

Actually that is exactly the sort of attitude that is likely to cause problems, whatever your handicap. Firstly the arrogance of boasting about how long you hit it, and secondly the ignorance of not knowing what you are talking about. An 'Australian' 5 handicap (much like a UK one) would be around three shots lower if he used the USA handicap system. If you need help, that's a 2.

[oregongolf]

It seems to me that recently a little rift has shown up between some of the members. That high handicappers are getting thrown around a bit because we (I am a 22) don't have the same skill set that some of our lower handicap members have. Being one of the high handicap equipment junkies that frequent this site I wanna know what we do that gets some of the rest of your blood boiling? I would honestly like to know what not to do. Just a thought.

 

I think you may be missinterpretting the posts (I'm assuming that you are talking about threads like the "Biggest Dislikes of golf" thread.)

 

As a, like, 72 handicap, I don't think anyone is complaining about high handicappers. I think they are complaining about players with no regard for other players on the course. As a high-capper, I feel a responsibility to make sure my play is not interferring with other people's enjoyment of the game.

 

There are posts in that same thread that could be applied to disrespectful low-cappers as well. For example, complaints about hitting into a slower group in front.

 

Perfect.

[SadTrombone]

It isn't the golfer him/herself, it's the handicap system in general.

 

As a low capper (anywhere from +2 to 1 over the past 3 or so years), it's tougher to win the handicapped events against a 24 unless I shoot 4 under. The system isn't based on scoring average, rather scoring potential. That hurts the low capper worse than the high capper, IMHO. A guy that shoots 90 on a regular basis can shoot 85 on occasion, but the guy that's "supposed" to shoot 71 isn't necessarily going to 65 all the time.

 

-mini

[Warszawa]

I beleive I have previously been guilty of the "I suck because I'm off 20" post and I apoligise to anyone that took any offense. As long as you enjoy the game and don't hinder the enjoyment of others, I don't care if you play off 673 or +3.

 

By the way, I play shoot low-eigthies to high-seventies nowadays... sorry I just had to mention that, I needed to stroke my ego. I wouldn't want anyone thinking I'm a high 'capper! <--------(sarcasm)

[villa]

Be it a high handicapper or a low one, a wanker on the course is a wanker anywhere.

 

Bingo!

 

There was a WITB post recently that for some reason got completely out of hand. The guy who posted had a set of Callaway X-20's and there was a particular post from a member who said 'nice shovels mate'. There was more to the thread than just this comment, but it did catch my attention.

 

It does happen. Taylormade3107 summed it up as the "I suck because i'm off 20" post. In general though, I don't think it's a massive problem. The moderators on here are pretty good at cleaning up nonsense and any individual always has the option of contacting a moderator off their own back if they feel it necessary.

 

This site is getting larger every day. The majority of the guys are from the U.S but there's a lot of Canadians, Brits, Aussies and a lot of guys from various countries in Mainland Europe (where English isn't even their first lanuage!). With so many members and such a diverse mix of abilities, age and nationalities there will always be the odd post that some people may find offensive or at worst, feel discriminated by.

 

In general though, the behaviour of the vast majority of members is impeccable. Let the moderators do their job and let's continue using this site in an informative, mature and responsible way.

 

Man, that soap box was high!

[Ogre41]

It isn't the golfer him/herself, it's the handicap system in general.

 

As a low capper (anywhere from +2 to 1 over the past 3 or so years), it's tougher to win the handicapped events against a 24 unless I shoot 4 under. The system isn't based on scoring average, rather scoring potential. That hurts the low capper worse than the high capper, IMHO. A guy that shoots 90 on a regular basis can shoot 85 on occasion, but the guy that's "supposed" to shoot 71 isn't necessarily going to 65 all the time.

 

-mini

 

 

I hadn't thought of that one, thanks. That makes a ton of sense. It is the same in bowling (maybe even worse). And to everyone else who replied, thanks. It was just something that was sort of bugging me recently. I agree that the mods do a great job, but there's a lot of posts to go through!

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

It isn't the golfer him/herself, it's the handicap system in general.

 

As a low capper (anywhere from +2 to 1 over the past 3 or so years), it's tougher to win the handicapped events against a 24 unless I shoot 4 under. The system isn't based on scoring average, rather scoring potential. That hurts the low capper worse than the high capper, IMHO. A guy that shoots 90 on a regular basis can shoot 85 on occasion, but the guy that's "supposed" to shoot 71 isn't necessarily going to 65 all the time.

 

-mini

 

 

I hadn't thought of that one, thanks. That makes a ton of sense. It is the same in bowling (maybe even worse). And to everyone else who replied, thanks. It was just something that was sort of bugging me recently. I agree that the mods do a great job, but there's a lot of posts to go through!

 

That's why they have "flighted" events, right? (<--not sarcasm, I don't know that much about tournaments)

[TexasAg]

I don't think I've been guilty of any posts lambasting higher handicapers on the board, but I've definitely had the thoughts. Frankly, it's part of the reason I don't post on boards like these more.

 

The way I figure it is that 90+% of people on this board are 15's or higher (just a guess on my part). There's nothing wrong with that, but at the same time I don't want to get into an argument over equipment or swing advice from somebody who can't break 90. There was a thread not long ago about hitting a particular type of shot. Alot of the discussion was about how hard it is to hit that shot. My guess is that half the people in that thread had no business giving swing advice (like many of the threads in the swing advice section, IMO). No it's not an easy shot, but it's well within the capabilities of anybody who really needs it or should be using it on the course.

 

Similarly, I see people advising others on equipment selection or whatever, when they clearly don't know what they're talking about. I saw a post from somebody asking about beginners clubs a while back. There was an individual in that thread trying to convince the guy to go out and spend several times his stated budget because he would be wasting his money on an inexpensive all-in-one beginners set. The budget clubs wouldn't last very long and he would outgrow them quickly, etc. Personally, I played an inexpensive beginners set down into the 80's before I finally bought a nice set of pings. They worked just fine for me when I was learning the game. I then happened to see another post, where the same guy who was recommending the expensive clubs, was either (I can't remember now) asking how to break 100 for the first time, or had finally broken 100 for the first time! IMO, if you can't break 100, you probably don't have any business giving anybody else any kind of swing or golf club advice.

 

I don't want this to sound like I'm bashing higher handicappers. I play with people all the time that can't hit the ball out of their shadow and I don't mind it one bit. But at the same time I don't want to hear about how game improvement irons mask your swing flaws and how they really love the new blades that they bought (but can't hit worth a darn).

 

I guess the net of all this is that I've just begun to assume that any advice or information that I get on the internet is probably worth what I paid for it. Generally speaking, I try not to make any posts bashing other people. More often than not, when I get the urge to do that I just walk away from the computer (that's what I did after reading idrive's post showing his lack of understanding of handicapping). I just find that it generally isn't worth the trouble. And as an offshoot of that, I don't post many questions looking for advice. My assumption is that if somebody is so misinformed about handicapping or equipment specifications or whatever, that I probably don't want to know what they think about my swing or how to properly warm up for a round or whatever. Just my 2 cents.

[crew_138]

Just because your a high-handicap... doesn't mean you don't know what you are talking about.

 

You might be physically limited, or just playing isn't as important as collecting or learning of forums or reading books.

 

I think asking those questions is what makes the boards what they are. You really only hear what you want to anyway. I might just ask a question to reinforce a decision I already made.

[husker77c]

I agree 100% with you Texasag.

 

I have a high handicap, or I would if I belonged to a place that would keep track of it, and I feel that I have absolutely no business giving any sort of advice on swings or equipment on this board. I joined this forum just to mostly lurk around and learn what I can. If I have terrible inconsistencies in my swing I am not going to tell somebody how to cure a slice when half of mine go farther right than they do straight.

That is just my .02

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

In summary:

 

Internet advice:

 

(a) You get what you pay for; and

 

(b) caveat emptor

[hobbes]

I'm with crew_138 on this one. Just because we can't flawlessly execute a shot doesn't mean we can't pass on the theoretical technique.

 

If Butch Harmon could play as well as he can talk, don't you think he would be Tiger Woods?

[thenewbie]

I'm a 14 hc (based on the dicks website handicap thingy), and I haven't really been playing for all that long (hence the name), but I consider myself a student of the game, both with equipment and the golf swing. sometimes I feel like I have something to add in a thread, and I'm not going to keep from saying it just because I'm not a scratch golfer. in the end, its that persons decision if they want to take my advice or not, and I have my hc in my sig for that very reason.

 

if I don't feel like I can add to the conversation, than I shut my mouth, because the last thing I want to do is mess someone else up just to inflate my ego, and make myself look like an idoit in the process. I think I ride the line fairly well. . .

[sergizmo]

I don't think I've been guilty of any posts lambasting higher handicapers on the board, but I've definitely had the thoughts. Frankly, it's part of the reason I don't post on boards like these more.

 

The way I figure it is that 90+% of people on this board are 15's or higher (just a guess on my part). There's nothing wrong with that, but at the same time I don't want to get into an argument over equipment or swing advice from somebody who can't break 90. There was a thread not long ago about hitting a particular type of shot. Alot of the discussion was about how hard it is to hit that shot. My guess is that half the people in that thread had no business giving swing advice (like many of the threads in the swing advice section, IMO). No it's not an easy shot, but it's well within the capabilities of anybody who really needs it or should be using it on the course.

 

Similarly, I see people advising others on equipment selection or whatever, when they clearly don't know what they're talking about. I saw a post from somebody asking about beginners clubs a while back. There was an individual in that thread trying to convince the guy to go out and spend several times his stated budget because he would be wasting his money on an inexpensive all-in-one beginners set. The budget clubs wouldn't last very long and he would outgrow them quickly, etc. Personally, I played an inexpensive beginners set down into the 80's before I finally bought a nice set of pings. They worked just fine for me when I was learning the game. I then happened to see another post, where the same guy who was recommending the expensive clubs, was either (I can't remember now) asking how to break 100 for the first time, or had finally broken 100 for the first time! IMO, if you can't break 100, you probably don't have any business giving anybody else any kind of swing or golf club advice.

 

I don't want this to sound like I'm bashing higher handicappers. I play with people all the time that can't hit the ball out of their shadow and I don't mind it one bit. But at the same time I don't want to hear about how game improvement irons mask your swing flaws and how they really love the new blades that they bought (but can't hit worth a darn).

 

I guess the net of all this is that I've just begun to assume that any advice or information that I get on the internet is probably worth what I paid for it. Generally speaking, I try not to make any posts bashing other people. More often than not, when I get the urge to do that I just walk away from the computer (that's what I did after reading idrive's post showing his lack of understanding of handicapping). I just find that it generally isn't worth the trouble. And as an offshoot of that, I don't post many questions looking for advice. My assumption is that if somebody is so misinformed about handicapping or equipment specifications or whatever, that I probably don't want to know what they think about my swing or how to properly warm up for a round or whatever. Just my 2 cents.

 

 

I am a high handicap golfer, and for the most part agree with this post. For me to give advice on player's cb's or blades, or to try to tell someone how to hit their driver with a high draw would be absurd. I just do not have the ability or experience.

 

Opinions from high handicap players can be valuable to other high handicap players however. And since the vast majority of golfers fall into this category, these posts aren't wasted space. There are lots of people looking into GI/super GI irons, draw based drivers, etc... And discussing ways to maximize limited playing skill/ability with set makeup or course strategy is an interesting topic for lots of people.

 

An important component when discussing gear should be a little background. For example, handicap, hitting tendencies, etc... If everyone is honest and non-judgemental for the most part, a lot of valuable info can be obtained.

[BILL12x]

On this board, the only thing I see high handicappers get bashed for is asking questions that have been answered 100's or more times.

 

As far as on the course, I play 2 days a week with other low handicaps and 1-2 days a week with higher handicaps. If you are a higher handicap, you do not need to rush, but you DO need to be ready to play your shot, and without a lengthy preshot routine. This is even more important if your whole foursome is high handicap.

 

If your cart partner is on the right side and you are left, drop him off and go to your ball, (or walk from there to your ball, carrying 2-3 clubs), and be ready to hit when it's your turn. All players of all handicaps should do this, especially if you are not pushing the group in front of you.

[longbutter]

Newbie I am a +1 and I often appreciate posts from guys like you!! There is no correlation between index and golf IQ, I take advise from whom ever is giving it and evaluate whether said advise can help me improve. If some of the logic applied above was real life, touring pros would only take lessons from other touring pros and only if they were better players. That would put a ton of great teachers out of business. One of the most valuable tips I have ever received in golf was from a 70 year old 20 handicap. He saw me moving my head while putting and advised me to put a quarter under the ball and concentrate on seeing the quarter after my stroke, my putting has improve two fold since.

[RagingAardvark]

If you are a higher handicap, you do not need to rush, but you DO need to be ready to play your shot, and without a lengthy preshot routine. This is even more important if your whole foursome is high handicap.

 

I whole heartedly agree. Of the three of us in our league group, two of us regularly shoot 90 or slightly lower. One member is lucky to break 110 (usually he's about 120!). BUT he plays pretty quick and has fun so it's all fine.

[evanpar]

It's a matter of numbers.

 

Let's use a 4 handicap and a 20 handicap because the math is easy.

 

In a net game if a 4 improves his score by 25% relative to his handicap he improves 1 shot. If a 20 improves 25% it's 5 shots. The 4 gets waxed pretty good. And a 25% improvement is well within the handicap system and does not indicate sandbagging of any sort.

 

It just is harder for a lower handicapper to beat a higher handicap with any cinsistenct.

 

Evanpar