'playing what the pros play'

[bladehunter]

I finally witnessed first hand what I figured was often case. I played with some guys using Rogue 125 70 tx shafts in their drivers who couldn't fly it more than 260 max.

 

Just out of curiosity...what does the WRX think makes people want to play equipment that pros play when they clearly could benefit from playing equipment better suited for their swing? Even when it is some serious pocket breaking priced equipment?!

I'll assume "couldn't fly it more than 260 max" means you never even saw them do that once... and I know you're only knocking their choice in the SELF "fitting" of the driver, cause NOBODY from the industry in their right mind fits them for that shaft... 70 gram Tour X in the Rogue is a shaft option for a VERY high ball speed player.. but the money spent has no correlation with success or failure IMO... they could have had a 70 X in a cheap option and be just a wrong... so in the end things just wind up look like a vanity purchase.

 

 

I just have to say it. The rogue offerings in "tx" cpm out to just at X for almost any other shaft maker. Sort of like graphite design X in all but their very heavy shafts is an S + when compared to anyone else. Any one here who plays say a matrix anything in X knows the rogue TX is softer. Much softer. So faulting the guy just because it says TX isn't quite genuine. He's playing an X in anything else. Maybe he shouldn't even be playing X. Very possible. But let's quit acting like he's playing rebar , he's not. That's one of the most active shafts on the market. That's why is popular. Guys can play it and say " look at me. TX"!... Lol and pull it off.

[JPC187]

Only on WRX are there people criticizing these hacks who only carry it 260.

 

Minimum carry disyance just to post on WRX is 285 with an easy 80% swing

 

What the hell does my post have to do with criticizing hacks? They were great golfers. I know enough about a swing to take a pretty educated guess they would benefit from different shafts.

 

There is no criticizing anyone. I love playing this game...regardless if it's with a pro or with a 30 handicapper. Is it that hard to believe in this day and age that one just wishes good upon others? I love to see people get the best out of their game.

[JPC187]

I finally witnessed first hand what I figured was often case. I played with some guys using Rogue 125 70 tx shafts in their drivers who couldn't fly it more than 260 max.

 

Just out of curiosity...what does the WRX think makes people want to play equipment that pros play when they clearly could benefit from playing equipment better suited for their swing? Even when it is some serious pocket breaking priced equipment?!

 

I finally witnessed first hand what I figured was often case. I played with some guys using Rogue 125 70 tx shafts in their drivers who couldn't fly it more than 260 max.

 

Just out of curiosity...what does the WRX think makes people want to play equipment that pros play when they clearly could benefit from playing equipment better suited for their swing? Even when it is some serious pocket breaking priced equipment?!

so I'll assume "couldn't fly it more than 260 max" means you never even saw them do that once... and I know you're only knocking their choice in the SELF "fitting" of the driver, cause NOBODY from the industry in their right mind fits them for that shaft... 70 gram Tour X in the Rogue is a shaft option for a VERY high ball speed player.. but the money spent has no correlation with success or failure IMO... they could have had a 70 X in a cheap option and be just a wrong... so in the end things just wind up look like a vanity purchase.

 

I should have replied... I discussed the club with them and yes- it wasn't fitted for them. They had acquired the shaft through a pretty cool means...and it's zero knock on them for wanting to play it. They're cool looking if nothing else.. but I don't think it takes experts to know that this shaft is not intended for someone with slower swing speeds and softer transitions...right?

[JPC187]

I finally witnessed first hand what I figured was often case. I played with some guys using Rogue 125 70 tx shafts in their drivers who couldn't fly it more than 260 max.

 

Just out of curiosity...what does the WRX think makes people want to play equipment that pros play when they clearly could benefit from playing equipment better suited for their swing? Even when it is some serious pocket breaking priced equipment?!

I'll assume "couldn't fly it more than 260 max" means you never even saw them do that once... and I know you're only knocking their choice in the SELF "fitting" of the driver, cause NOBODY from the industry in their right mind fits them for that shaft... 70 gram Tour X in the Rogue is a shaft option for a VERY high ball speed player.. but the money spent has no correlation with success or failure IMO... they could have had a 70 X in a cheap option and be just a wrong... so in the end things just wind up look like a vanity purchase.

 

 

I just have to say it. The rogue offerings in "tx" cpm out to just at X for almost any other shaft maker. Sort of like graphite design X in all but their very heavy shafts is an S + when compared to anyone else. Any one here who plays say a matrix anything in X knows the rogue TX is softer. Much softer. So faulting the guy just because it says TX isn't quite genuine. He's playing an X in anything else. Maybe he shouldn't even be playing X. Very possible. But let's quit acting like he's playing rebar , he's not. That's one of the most active shafts on the market. That's why is popular. Guys can play it and say " look at me. TX"!... Lol and pull it off.

 

It was the 2.5 X shaft. Idk why I put TX..i didn't even know there was a 'tx' version of the shaft to be honest. Again- I don't care in this particular case..or any case... but the larger point exists and my question was just using a recent example..

 

Why would you sacrifice hitting the ball your best to play equipment that looks cool or is played by your favorite pro? I am just genuinely curious... I could careless who plays what. It's fun to discuss and how it impacts/influences their game...but I like low scores...not cool white shafts or telling someone I play a tour issue **** with a ultra stiff ***** shaft.

[JPC187]

I know an average guy who has a beautiful wife and commutes to work in a Porsche 911. The nerve! Based off of my internet research I told him he would be much better off with an ugly wife and a Prius.

 

No offense...but that is a ridiculous analogy. That is like comparing cars to golf clubs.

[bladehunter]

I finally witnessed first hand what I figured was often case. I played with some guys using Rogue 125 70 tx shafts in their drivers who couldn't fly it more than 260 max.

 

Just out of curiosity...what does the WRX think makes people want to play equipment that pros play when they clearly could benefit from playing equipment better suited for their swing? Even when it is some serious pocket breaking priced equipment?!

I'll assume "couldn't fly it more than 260 max" means you never even saw them do that once... and I know you're only knocking their choice in the SELF "fitting" of the driver, cause NOBODY from the industry in their right mind fits them for that shaft... 70 gram Tour X in the Rogue is a shaft option for a VERY high ball speed player.. but the money spent has no correlation with success or failure IMO... they could have had a 70 X in a cheap option and be just a wrong... so in the end things just wind up look like a vanity purchase.

 

 

I just have to say it. The rogue offerings in "tx" cpm out to just at X for almost any other shaft maker. Sort of like graphite design X in all but their very heavy shafts is an S + when compared to anyone else. Any one here who plays say a matrix anything in X knows the rogue TX is softer. Much softer. So faulting the guy just because it says TX isn't quite genuine. He's playing an X in anything else. Maybe he shouldn't even be playing X. Very possible. But let's quit acting like he's playing rebar , he's not. That's one of the most active shafts on the market. That's why is popular. Guys can play it and say " look at me. TX"!... Lol and pull it off.

 

It was the 2.5 X shaft. Idk why I put TX..i didn't even know there was a 'tx' version of the shaft to be honest. Again- I don't care in this particular case..or any case... but the larger point exists and my question was just using a recent example..

 

Why would you sacrifice hitting the ball your best to play equipment that looks cool or is played by your favorite pro? I am just genuinely curious... I could careless who plays what. It's fun to discuss and how it impacts/influences their game...but I like low scores...not cool white shafts or telling someone I play a tour issue **** with a ultra stiff ***** shaft.

 

Friend I'm not trying to jump down your throat at all. But that new info makes it even worse. He's playing s+ at best if it's an X rogue. So it likely was a great fit for him. Almost all X players will play the TX rogue , sort of like modus 120 iron shafts. The X is soft. Or equivalent to a hard stepped S. Anyone playing say an x100 or px 6.5 7.0 will play the 120 tx or 130 X ... Labels don't mean a lot these days , and maybe never did. Again not trying to be harsh. But he's not " playing what the pros play ". The pros would have s TX rogue shaft ( Spieth is the first that comes to mind ) and tipped God knows how much.

[JPC187]

No offense taken.

 

I summarized this because I didn't want to disclose a page story. They weren't fitted for the shafts (per them), they said without me saying anything it wasn't the shaft for them and they had to "adjust their game" for the shaft, etc.

 

In short.. they actually said themselves what I was asking...and this is prevalent in golf. We all know it is....so why a few on here are acting like it is not is odd to me. it is zero knock on them..people are welcome to play what they want.

 

As I previously stated..I love to see people play great golf and get rewarded for great swings. That's the fun of the whole game..and it's almost as fun to see others do it as it is to do it yourself. Thus.. I am curious why some people would sacrifice maximizing potential for ideal shots to play non-ideal equipment.

[CosmosMpower]

260 carry could be with sub par contact which means the guy could be swinging it pretty fast. Also some people just prefer the feel of a stiffer shaft. I doubt most people buy a TX shaft for vanity, the Rogue comes in a lot of clubs now as a standard shaft and 99.99% of people wouldn't know the difference between a regular Rogue and TX Rogue.

[tdelam]

I've never looked at another mans shaft before... :censored2:

 

Like someone said before, it makes absolutely zero sense in wondering why some people play a certain shaft or irons, even if their handicap would typically suggest they shouldn't. What works for him may never work for you. Some people who according to their handicap, should be playing SGI's can only play with a players iron and some people load the shaft differently and play straighter/farther drives with a X flex heavy shaft.

 

260 is a very respectable. I would bet he knows his game very well and was probably even fit for that shaft.

[DevilDog]

As Tom Wishon once wrote, the difference between what all us amateur golfers buy and what pros have is like the difference between a car off the showroom floor and a NASCAR race car. While someone might get access to some pro items, the pros are also fit exhaustively. That is, more iterations than any of us would ever go through with a fitter.

[CosmosMpower]

As Tom Wishon once wrote, the difference between what all us amateur golfers buy and what pros have is like the difference between a car off the showroom floor and a NASCAR race car. While someone might get access to some pro items, the pros are also fit exhaustively. That is, more iterations than any of us would ever go through with a fitter.

 

I disagree, especially lately. A lot of pros are hitting retail heads (Ping G, M1/M2) with small adjustments or particular spec. The difference between a Toyota Camry and Toyota NASCAR is much larger than a tour driver and a retail driver.

[tdelam]

As Tom Wishon once wrote, the difference between what all us amateur golfers buy and what pros have is like the difference between a car off the showroom floor and a NASCAR race car. While someone might get access to some pro items, the pros are also fit exhaustively. That is, more iterations than any of us would ever go through with a fitter.

 

I disagree, especially lately. A lot of pros are hitting retail heads (Ping G, M1/M2) with small adjustments or particular spec. The difference between a Toyota Camry and Toyota NASCAR is much larger than a tour driver and a retail driver.

 

I agree with both. Luke Donald plays pretty much standard off the shelf equipment he said, the same stuff you can buy at any store is what he has his in his bag. There are a few players who are heavily spec'd out, I think Justin Rose is one of them too

[joeferb]

Kind of a dumb argument going on in here. Honestly all that matters is impact. Granted if this guy can hit the center of the face with a tour xflex (with a 260yd carry let's be real, not a lot of swing speed. Maybe low 100s. Likely high 90s.) There are definitely firmer stiff flex shaft what would give him better flex, launch, and spin. There are really cool shafts that aren't Tour X models. Definitely unnecessary if you aren't swinging 110mph MINIMUM. Those shafts are meant for violent transitions and ridiculous amounts of torque.

 

But hey I'm sure we've all bought golf equipment we don't need. So whatever.

 

Also don't get butt hurt when you feel bad about your 260yrd drives. You know it's not long. We know it's not long. If all you can hit the ball is 260 yards you should be playing off of the men's or combo tees. Tips are for people to can actually play the full length of the course. EGO comes into play when you hit the ball 260 and think you can game the tips.

[lsu_atx_golf]

I have a buddy that plays Titleist MB irons and has TX shafts in all his woods. He's about a 20 handicap. He gets his clubs second hand from our other buddy who plays for Titleist.

[tdelam]

Kind of a dumb argument going on in here. Honestly all that matters is impact. Granted if this guy can hit the center of the face with a tour xflex (with a 260yd carry let's be real, not a lot of swing speed. Maybe low 100s. Likely high 90s.) There are definitely firmer stiff flex shaft what would give him better flex, launch, and spin. There are really cool shafts that aren't Tour X models. Definitely unnecessary if you aren't swinging 110mph MINIMUM. Those shafts are meant for violent transitions and ridiculous amounts of torque.

 

But hey I'm sure we've all bought golf equipment we don't need. So whatever.

 

Also don't get butt hurt when you feel bad about your 260yrd drives. You know it's not long. We know it's not long. If all you can hit the ball is 260 yards you should be playing off of the men's or combo tees. Tips are for people to can actually play the full length of the course. EGO comes into play when you hit the ball 260 and think you can game the tips.

 

LOL. Well considering the PGA average is 288.8 yards, 260 is plenty long enough for an amateur playing weekend golf. I think you're mistaking the tips at a short muni to that of a championship course on tour. We play the tips a lot but the tips make the course only 6500 yards as apposed to 6100. It all depends where you're playing. Generalizing the tips is silly.

[DTXgolfer12]

First - shaft flex is no way is directly related to distance. There are a lot of "shorter" hitters that can fit into something like a Blueboard 60x

 

Second - some guys like the feel of a boardy shaft. Even if it's just a preference and it doesn't actually help them. The feel of playing what you like is half the battle.

 

Third - we ALL want to play what the pro's play. That's why Michael Jordan sells so many basketball shoes. There's no shame in it.

 

 

That being said....if you're bag is worth more than your car and you can't break 100 - expect flack to come your way at some point.

[Illest]

Kind of a dumb argument going on in here. Honestly all that matters is impact. Granted if this guy can hit the center of the face with a tour xflex (with a 260yd carry let's be real, not a lot of swing speed. Maybe low 100s. Likely high 90s.) There are definitely firmer stiff flex shaft what would give him better flex, launch, and spin. There are really cool shafts that aren't Tour X models. Definitely unnecessary if you aren't swinging 110mph MINIMUM. Those shafts are meant for violent transitions and ridiculous amounts of torque.

 

But hey I'm sure we've all bought golf equipment we don't need. So whatever.

 

Also don't get butt hurt when you feel bad about your 260yrd drives. You know it's not long. We know it's not long. If all you can hit the ball is 260 yards you should be playing off of the men's or combo tees. Tips are for people to can actually play the full length of the course. EGO comes into play when you hit the ball 260 and think you can game the tips.

 

LOL

 

260 is plenty long enough to play from the tips even if your playing 7000+.

[CosmosMpower]

Kind of a dumb argument going on in here. Honestly all that matters is impact. Granted if this guy can hit the center of the face with a tour xflex (with a 260yd carry let's be real, not a lot of swing speed. Maybe low 100s. Likely high 90s.) There are definitely firmer stiff flex shaft what would give him better flex, launch, and spin. There are really cool shafts that aren't Tour X models. Definitely unnecessary if you aren't swinging 110mph MINIMUM. Those shafts are meant for violent transitions and ridiculous amounts of torque.

 

But hey I'm sure we've all bought golf equipment we don't need. So whatever.

 

Also don't get butt hurt when you feel bad about your 260yrd drives. You know it's not long. We know it's not long. If all you can hit the ball is 260 yards you should be playing off of the men's or combo tees. Tips are for people to can actually play the full length of the course. EGO comes into play when you hit the ball 260 and think you can game the tips.

 

260 CARRY with high 90, low 100 swing speed? LOL right.

[MtlJeff]

Kind of a dumb argument going on in here. Honestly all that matters is impact. Granted if this guy can hit the center of the face with a tour xflex (with a 260yd carry let's be real, not a lot of swing speed. Maybe low 100s. Likely high 90s.) There are definitely firmer stiff flex shaft what would give him better flex, launch, and spin. There are really cool shafts that aren't Tour X models. Definitely unnecessary if you aren't swinging 110mph MINIMUM. Those shafts are meant for violent transitions and ridiculous amounts of torque.

 

But hey I'm sure we've all bought golf equipment we don't need. So whatever.

 

Also don't get butt hurt when you feel bad about your 260yrd drives. You know it's not long. We know it's not long. If all you can hit the ball is 260 yards you should be playing off of the men's or combo tees. Tips are for people to can actually play the full length of the course. EGO comes into play when you hit the ball 260 and think you can game the tips.

 

LOL

 

260 is plenty long enough to play from the tips even if your playing 7000+.

 

I believe average carry on the PGA tour was 268 or thereabouts a couple of years ago.

 

If we are talking 260 carry, that's long enough to play the tips at 99.99% of courses in the world, save for gimmick tees like the international at 8300yds or whatever

 

I carry 260 and have broken par at 2 courses around here over 7k yards.

 

Kind of misinformed to suggest that's short hitting

[justincredible04]

I don't think it's short hitting as much as this guy isn't carrying it nearly as far as he should to be hitting the shaft.

 

I'm indifferent play whatever you want. I checked my ego when I've played with guys playing S flex carrying it +275. Playing with someone that is hitting a driver as high as a 7 iron, straight as an arrow, and taking shortcuts OVER tress will humble anyone into getting spec'd out.

[Keyser Sфze]

A lot of pro's now play more forgiving irons (like the 745's I have) so it's not that big of an issue anymore and whacky to have them in a 10+ hcp's bag. Plus most of us use hybrids instead of long irons.

 

Now the shafts, that's a different story.

[gmangolf]

Ego is what makes people play equipment the pros play even if it is not suited for their game... or maybe ignorance.

 

In the end, everyone should play whatever they can score the best with... you'll look way cooler in your Rickie Fowler outfit if you play something suitable for your game and beat your buddies than you will using that XX flex shaft.

[justincredible04]

Ego is what makes people play equipment the pros play even if it is not suited for their game... or maybe ignorance.

 

In the end, everyone should play whatever they can score the best with... you'll look way cooler in your Rickie Fowler outfit if you play something suitable for your game and beat your buddies than you will using that XX flex shaft.

 

Lol. Pretty much. Same guys that always ask me what club I'm hitting. Yes bruh I'm hitting two clubs higher than you are. Just hit the club that gets YOU the closest to the hole

[MadGolfer76]

Funny how we are 84 posts deep in this silliness and no one ever bothered to ask how they hit it or what they scored. Leave it to flex-obsessed WRX'ers to miss the big picture.

[duffer987]

Funny how we are 84 posts deep in this silliness and no one ever bothered to ask how they hit it or what they scored. Leave it to flex-obsessed WRX'ers to miss the big picture.

 

Actually multiple posters have asked for information on that subject from the OP.

Leave it to wanting to shoehorn in a WRX-cliche to miss that ;)

[Sean2]

I play for score. I play what works for me. What a professional plays, or wears, has no influence on what I purchase.

[MadGolfer76]

Funny how we are 84 posts deep in this silliness and no one ever bothered to ask how they hit it or what they scored. Leave it to flex-obsessed WRX'ers to miss the big picture.

 

Actually multiple posters have asked for information on that subject from the OP.

Leave it to wanting to shoehorn in a WRX-cliche to miss that ;)

 

I'm seeing two posts total where it was maybe hinted at at best, so I think the "shoehorn" is rather well warranted.

[Exactice808]

Funny how we are 84 posts deep in this silliness and no one ever bothered to ask how they hit it or what they scored. Leave it to flex-obsessed WRX'ers to miss the big picture.

 

 

I tried on the first post LOL...... basically setting the tone for the OP to dismiss my statement... But it was over looked.

 

"in this silliness" We just wanted to comment on someone using a Tour X flex shaft and not hitting it 300+ yards....

 

Welcome to the "Narrow Minded" side of GolfWRX, dont hate us all Mad =P

[MadGolfer76]

Funny how we are 84 posts deep in this silliness and no one ever bothered to ask how they hit it or what they scored. Leave it to flex-obsessed WRX'ers to miss the big picture.

 

 

I tried on the first place...... basically setting the tone for the OP to dismiss my statement... But it was over looked.

 

"in this silliness" We just wanted to comment on someone using a Tour X flex shaft and not hitting it 300+ yards....

 

Welcome to the "Narrow Minded" side of GolfWRX, dont hate us all Mad =P

 

Alright, alright. I'll play nice and post something for consideration.

 

When I first started playing golf, most graphite shafts basically sucked and most folks still had Dynamic Gold or Rifle shafts in play for woods as well as irons. That was men *and* women, although a lot of the gals had some kind of lighter weight steel from time to time and some actually did have graphite. At that time, Dynamic Gold steel wood shafts were also in play on the PGA Tour, Senior Tour (as it was called then), and LPGA Tour. We're talking about heavy steel shafts, and everyone was playing them, more or less. Regardless of whether it was an "R" flex, Dynamic Gold still weighed around 120 grams before trimming and was a rather meaty shaft. It's just that few people worried about DG's unless they had a true physical challenge.

 

Fast forward 20 years, and now it blows peoples' minds that someone is playing some 70 gram shaft, even in an X flex? I hate to get into a chest-thumping kind of thing, but when 70-80 gram graphite shafts were first made available, a lot of people were concerned they were too light and flexible to be usable. I know that materials and manufacturing have changed, but we've gone from a place where a driver shaft is ~120 grams to 60 or less, and scores haven't changed overall. This is all to say that I don't get the fretting over any particular shaft. 20 years ago people would have been scratching their heads about what all the fuss was over a 70 gram graphite, regardless of flex, and now folks think it is somehow off limits for all but an elite few. I know a few older ducks here have this same perspective, but maybe not everyone does, I guess.

 

Interestingly, DriverWedge recently let me hit his JPX 850 driver that he installed an x100 shaft into with an extra inch of tipping on top of standard (because he thought it felt "whippy" - schmuck...). It was set almost three degrees open and measured loft was down to 6 degrees and change. Despite it being the wrong face angle and loft for me, I hit it within 10 yards of my normal driver at the time with a 70x shaft in it. I don't know what my handicap is now because I am not playing much but I would certainly fall into a mid or low single. No one now would recommend such a setup to me, but I could game that stick with little trouble if I needed to.

 

Quite honestly, if the swing is good, the shaft makes less difference than most think it does. Leave that stuff for Tour players who need to squeeze every last drop out of a fitting. For the rest of us, I don't think it makes as big a difference to score as we would like to think. Hence, some of my posts here.

[Warrick]

Funny how we are 84 posts deep in this silliness and no one ever bothered to ask how they hit it or what they scored. Leave it to flex-obsessed WRX'ers to miss the big picture.

 

 

I tried on the first place...... basically setting the tone for the OP to dismiss my statement... But it was over looked.

 

"in this silliness" We just wanted to comment on someone using a Tour X flex shaft and not hitting it 300+ yards....

 

Welcome to the "Narrow Minded" side of GolfWRX, dont hate us all Mad =P

 

Alright, alright. I'll play nice and post something for consideration.

 

When I first started playing golf, most graphite shafts basically sucked and most folks still had Dynamic Gold or Rifle shafts in play for woods as well as irons. That was men *and* women, although a lot of the gals had some kind of lighter weight steel from time to time and some actually did have graphite. At that time, Dynamic Gold steel wood shafts were also in play on the PGA Tour, Senior Tour (as it was called then), and LPGA Tour. We're talking about heavy steel shafts, and everyone was playing them, more or less. Regardless of whether it was an "R" flex, Dynamic Gold still weighed around 120 grams before trimming and was a rather meaty shaft. It's just that few people worried about DG's unless they had a true physical challenge.

 

Fast forward 20 years, and now it blows peoples' minds that someone is playing some 70 gram shaft, even in an X flex? I hate to get into a chest-thumping kind of thing, but when 70-80 gram graphite shafts were first made available, a lot of people were concerned they were too light and flexible to be usable. I know that materials and manufacturing have changed, but we've gone from a place where a driver shaft is ~120 grams to 60 or less, and scores haven't changed overall. This is all to say that I don't get the fretting over any particular shaft. 20 years ago people would have been scratching their heads about what all the fuss was over a 70 gram graphite, regardless of flex, and now folks think it is somehow off limits for all but an elite few. I know a few older ducks here have this same perspective, but maybe not everyone does, I guess.

 

Interestingly, DriverWedge recently let me hit his JPX 850 driver that he installed an x100 shaft into with an extra inch of tipping on top of standard (because he thought it felt "whippy" - schmuck...). It was set almost three degrees open and measured loft was down to 6 degrees and change. Despite it being the wrong face angle and loft for me, I hit it within 10 yards of my normal driver at the time with a 70x shaft in it. I don't know what my handicap is now because I am not playing much but I would certainly fall into a mid or low single. No one now would recommend such a setup to me, but I could game that stick with little trouble if I needed to.

 

Quite honestly, if the swing is good, the shaft makes less difference than most think it does. Leave that stuff for Tour players who need to squeeze every last drop out of a fitting. For the rest of us, I don't think it makes as big a difference to score as we would like to think. Hence, some of my posts here.

 

That is funny. I was playing a set of G25's with CFS stiff(3/4 flat), and DriverWedge had some 64's with ctaper130x and 2up on the BST cheap. He suggested I try before I changed.

 

I now have MP5's with ctaper 130x and everything 1 up.