Would you call this protecting the field? Would you call it fair?

[Loki]

I played in a 2 day tournament this past weekend. And something happened that some of us don't really think is fair.

• Player has a 14.8 index with and average score of 92.5 over six rounds this year and is in the C flight. Kid hits the ball a long ways as I have played with him, not WRX long, mind you but longer than me.
  
• C flight is handicaps of 14.0 to 18.9, B flight is 9.0 to 13.9.
  
• He shoots a 76 at a pretty decent track.
  
• Due to the fact that he shot 4 strokes under the battleground promotion score he gets bumped up to B flight and is the leader after round 1.
  
• He shoots 84 on Sunday to win B flight by two strokes and would have won C flight by 10 shots. I fully expected him to shoot 90 to 92 based on his previous posted scores and based on historical averages of what players are likely to do in a round after they have had a really good round.
  
• I know nothing of his real handicap and what he normally shoots.
  
• Now you compound this with the fact that due to a 2.5 hour rain delay, he had to finish his last three holes the next morning and it got around that he was in B flight and leading it. He never played with his fellow B flight competitors either day, so we didn't know exactly where we stood.
  
• I feel bad for the guy that placed second after a decent round of 82 and lost out on the points, trophy and decent winnings. Wasn't me, I finished fourth.
  

I was told by the tour director that moving the player up a flight mid-tournament protects the field. Can someone explain to me how this protects the field and is fair as the tour director refuses to discuss it further?

 

I have never heard of anything like this happening. They certainly don't move players down if they have a bad round. I would have felt bad for him if he shot 90 and didn't finish in the money for B flight and would have won C flight.

[Socrates]

At least they moved him down into the next flight. Don't see that they could do much more as his scores would be indicative of a 9-13.9 index. Nothing really new here. Handicap events like this are rife with sandbaggers (some guys do it by accident but some are very good at it). Always have and always will be.

[fairways4life]

So you think it would be more fair to keep him in C flight and have him smoke the field by 10? At least putting him in B flight made things competitive. It protected the C flight field.

 

If a 14.8 handicapper shoots a 76 in a tournament, there's reason for suspicion. Where would he have placed in the A flight (if A flight played the same tees that is)?

[Loki]

At least they moved him down into the next flight. Don't see that they could do much more as his scores would be indicative of a 9-13.9 index. Nothing really new here. Handicap events like this are rife with sandbaggers (some guys do it by accident but some are very good at it). Always have and always will be.

 

No, they moved him up from C to B.

[Loki]

So you think it would be more fair to keep him in C flight and have him smoke the field by 10? At least putting him in B flight made things competitive. It protected the C flight field.

 

If a 14.8 handicapper shoots a 76 in a tournament, there's reason for suspicion. Where would he have placed in the A flight (if A flight played the same tees that is)?

 

Yes, I do. He entered the tournament in C flight as he did in five previous rounds and shot mid-90's so he was flighted properly.

 

Based on his previous scores this year, and average of 92.5, I don't have suspicions of sandbagging. Besides the guys play in the flight that they should. It is a pretty fair system.

[Socrates]

Sorry, but guys don't shoot in the mid 90's and then under tournament conditions, rip off a 76. Alarm bells would be going off and especially if he follows it up with an 84. If the prizes were big, there would be a lot of grumbling around here.

 

None the less, I think the tournament did the right thing and put him in the grouping (regardless of who he played with) that his 1st round score indicated and he did nothing to prove them wrong in the 2nd round.

[fairways4life]

So you think it would be more fair to keep him in C flight and have him smoke the field by 10? At least putting him in B flight made things competitive. It protected the C flight field.

 

If a 14.8 handicapper shoots a 76 in a tournament, there's reason for suspicion. Where would he have placed in the A flight (if A flight played the same tees that is)?

 

Yes, I do. He entered the tournament in C flight as he did in five previous rounds and shot mid-90's so he was flighted properly.

 

Based on his previous scores this year, and average of 92.5, I don't have suspicions of sandbagging. Besides the guys play in the flight that they should. It is a pretty fair system.

 

That's exactly why many people would have suspicions. A dude that's a 15 handicap that has played 6 rounds of golf this year goes out and fires a 76 in a tournament? What would he have had to shoot in order to make you suspicious? 73? 70? 65? Just because he posted a handful of 90+ scores doesn't mean he wasn't sandbagging. That's exactly how sandbagging works.

 

Maybe it wasn't intentional and malicious sandbagging. But it sounds like the guy is not a C flight caliber player. They bumped him to a flight that was more appropriate for him.

 

You say you feel sorry for the guy that finished second to this player in the B flight. Fair enough, but would you not feel bad for the guy that would've finished second to him in C flight by 10 shots? I say they did the right thing. And besides, he won regardless. So moving him to another flight didn't change the outcome of the tournament for him.

[Hardluckster]

 

Yes, I do. He entered the tournament in C flight as he did in five previous rounds and shot mid-90's so he was flighted properly.

 

Based on his previous scores this year, and average of 92.5, I don't have suspicions of sandbagging. Besides the guys play in the flight that they should. It is a pretty fair system.

 

In the OP you stated that you knew nothing of this guy's real handicap or his normal scores. Maybe the people running the tournament knew more than you did? It could be that the guy had pulled similar amazing feats before. We've all seen it before.

 

Now, moving the guy to the B flight definitely protected the C flight from a potential bagger. It didn't hurt any players in the B flight, as I see it, because this looks like where the guy should have been to begin with. Lastly, it definitely didn't hurt 'the guy' because he actually won a more advanced flight.

 

Quite possibly the tournament director's short but sweet answer is because he didn't want to just come out and tell you that the guy was 'bagging'. This was a PC method for saying the same thing?

[MrJones]

B flight low handicap was a 9 and this guy shot 76. That would be an excellent tournament round for a 9 capper. For a 14 that has averaged shooting 92 this year? Sounds like he's only turning in his bad scores.

[bubbagumpshrimp]

Can someone explain to me how this protects the field and is fair as the tour director refuses to discuss it further? I have never heard of anything like this happening. They certainly don't move players down if they have a bad round. I would have felt bad for him if he shot 90 and didn't finish in the money for B flight and would have won C flight.

 

What was the tour director going to say? "I think he was sandbagging, so I decided it was appropriate to move him up a flight." It was appropriate that he got moved up...and I think it was smart that the tour director chose to not comment on why he moved the guy up.

[mark m]

It sounds like the pay outs were based on gross scores (only) within each flight?

 

A few points. First, a spread of 4.9 strokes inside the 2 flights makes for a big advantage for the lower handicap players in a 2 round tournament (9-10 strokes) before anyone plays a hole. I would rather see both gross and net pay outs in each flight (cannot win in both). I believe that is more "fair" and he probably would not have moved this player up a flight. It also takes a lot of the sting out of situations like this. Second, there is not enough information to make a determination about the player. No question that the scores are way below his handicap and caused problems. However, it could be a rare case of a player improving faster than the system can react. In these cases, a player is taking lessons and rapidly improving. (Some threads in the instruction forum have covered this rapid improvement.) It would also be nice to see his scoring record. If a USGA Handicap Index is required to enter this tournament, this player's handicap is public information and could be viewed online. A look at it would tell you if he has any rounds of this type in his last 20 (or past 12 months for tournament scores). It would not tell you if he is taking lessons. I have had 2 good friends improve from 20+ handicaps to a 5 and a +1 - but they did it on their own and the process took about 10 years for each. But if you combine good natural talent, work ethic, and good teaching, it can happen pretty quickly in rare cases.

[deadsolid...shank]

Tough call. Bumping seems to be pretty standard. We've debated it a lot over the years and never been able to really decide if we think it's good or not.

It always benefits some and hurts others. Just depends on which side of the line you end up on.

 

 

Really is no good, easy answer.

[vtnerf]

Only thing to do different would be to maybe readjust the pairings for day 2 so he's playing with other B flight guys. At the end of the day, same course and same conditions, and in playing with C flight guys he had a marker(s) to keep it all above board.

[Llortamaisey]

A good way to look at this is that they are flighting the tournament after the first round based on the first round score and handicap. If he was truly a sandbagger, he would have shot 84-76 in order to avoid getting bumped.

 

They should have paired him with his new flight the second day, unless pairings were predetermined for both rounds before the tournament began.

[deadsolid...shank]

Only thing to do different would be to maybe readjust the pairings for day 2 so he's playing with other B flight guys. At the end of the day, same course and same conditions, and in playing with C flight guys he had a marker(s) to keep it all above board.

 

Most of our tournaments have always repaired for the second day. I didn't read that part of the OP closely enough, but he didn't play with the B flight guys the second day?

[vtnerf]

Only thing to do different would be to maybe readjust the pairings for day 2 so he's playing with other B flight guys. At the end of the day, same course and same conditions, and in playing with C flight guys he had a marker(s) to keep it all above board.

 

Most of our tournaments have always repaired for the second day. I didn't read that part of the OP closely enough, but he didn't play with the B flight guys the second day?

 

Now you compound this with the fact that due to a 2.5 hour rain delay, he had to finish his last three holes the next morning and it got around that he was in B flight and leading it. He never played with his fellow B flight competitors either day, so we didn't know exactly where we stood.

Guess my question is why didn't anyone know where they stood? There wasn't a scoreboard posted? He wasn't "moved" to the B flight on the scoreboard/sheet? Sounds like poor management by the pro/committee in informing the field of who they are competing against and where everyone stood.

[vtnerf]

I would add that even if the groupings were set for both days and not re-paired, there is a chance to move the last place B flight guy and swap with the guy they moved up.

But the ideal thing would be to have the groups go out according to first day score, in flight.

[North Butte]

Are you saying he literally had just 5 rounds in the handicap system prior to the tournament? If so the "unfair" problem occurred by letting him into any flight based on a quickie five-round index. It's one thing to let someone play in $20 dogfights as soon as they get their initial "official" handicap but for an actual stroke-play, large-field tournament that's nuts.

 

The first private club I ever belonged to did a yearly match-play tournament. A guy had just joined the club like a month earlier and they let him in the field with a five-round "official" GHIN index. I was a 19 handicap at the time and had to give this guy like three strokes. After about the second hole I knew I'd been jobbed. I gave him a putt for birdie on the 9th hole that put his even par for the front nine. I was playing great and was six holes down making the turn.

 

He closed me out with a tap-in par on the 12th green (8-and-6) at which point he was two over for 12 holes. Playing off a 22 'cap. While we finished out the rest of the back nine he mentioned that he was an 8 handicap at his old club but quote-unquote "had been fighting the shanks real bad his last few rounds". Well apparently he had shanked about 30 shots over those 5 rounds. I'll admit that I did not congratulate him on his "win" although I did manage to shake his hand.

 

I checked the computer a couple months later when he had 20 rounds in the system. His index was 9.6 even including the 80-something he posted for that round where he was 3-over after 12. Did I mention he double-bogeyed or worse on every single hole after the match was closed out?

 

That was my first and as far as I know my only encounter with a true, honest-to-goodness intentional sandbagger. I spoke to the handicap committee and they promised to look into but all I know was my $75 entry fee was wasted and I never bothered to enter another tournament at that club. Hope he enjoyed his $100 pro-shop credit for winner the hacker flight.

[Loki]

Did some further research and found out that he won his first tourney this year in the C flight and shot 88, with a 13.4 event index, so they bumped him to B flight immediately. Played in three more B flight tourney's and shot 96, 87, 93, 95, 96 (two of these were two day tourneys). For some reason they let him play in the C flight for this weekend's tourney so I am guessing that is why they immediately bumped him to B flight after posting the 76. I still don't like the fact that he was bumped mid-tourney and didn't play with the B flight guys either day.

 

Yes, they do re-pair the flights for the second day.

[LeoLeo99]

Did some further research and found out that he won his first tourney this year in the C flight and shot 88, with a 13.4 event index, so they bumped him to B flight immediately. Played in three more B flight tourney's and shot 96, 87, 93, 95, 96 (two of these were two day tourneys). For some reason they let him play in the C flight for this weekend's tourney so I am guessing that is why they immediately bumped him to B flight after posting the 76. I still don't like the fact that he was bumped mid-tourney and didn't play with the B flight guys either day.

 

Yes, they do re-pair the flights for the second day.

 

I'm sure the C-flight guys don't see anything wrong with what happened. You can't please everyone. Do you think they should have moved him from C to A flight when he had a string of 95s in tournament play?

[North Butte]

FWIW a golf buddy of mine is about a 6 handicap and is pretty much GolfWRX long. Not saying he hits it over 300 yards routinely but he gets it out there 280-290 and uses a 6-iron from 200 yards. When he goes through a crooked hitting spell and has the two-way miss going I'm not sure about 95's but he sure as heck can post 88-91 in a two round tournament. But on days his swing is on he can shoot 76 in his sleep which is why he's a 6 and not a double-digit.

 

My point being, long hitters who play golf once or twice a week are high variance players. It takes a lot of rounds of golf to really assign them an honest handicap and even if the handicap is totally legit they can certainly go low once in a great while.

 

Another 6-handicapper I play with regularly is the opposite. He hits the ball about a club longer than I do (and I am *seriously* short) but never loses a ball, never has a penalty stroke and almost never flubs a straightforward up and down. He isn't going to shoot a 95 or even an 85, ever, unless he's playing on a broken leg. You could take any half-dozen rounds of his and compute a handicap index and it'll be within a stroke one way or the other of his actual ability.

[cardoustie]

someone smarter than me tell me what the odds are for being that far below his index on back to back tourney days

 

has to be 5,000 to 1

[Hardluckster]

I still don't like the fact that he was bumped mid-tourney

 

Why? Because his moving bumped you from third to fourth? I can't see a reason why you think he shouldn't have been in B flight, considering that he won it.

 

and didn't play with the B flight guys either day.

 

Yes, they do re-pair the flights for the second day.

 

On this we agree. He should have played with the group he was competing against. Seems like laziness on the committee's part to me.

[North Butte]

His differential for that final round 84 was probably a shot or so under his 14.8 index (assuming the C flight does not play the back tees) and not highly suspicious, especially if he was at 13.4 during a previous tournament. That 84 is just a real good, solid round.

 

The 76 is a black swan round though. Close to 10 shots under your handicap should virtually never happen. Following it up with a merely good round does add to the suspicion index though.

 

At clubs with a proactive handicap committee he would simply be handed an index of something like 7-8 and told to use that as his handicap for six months to see what scores he shoots in his next tournament rounds.

[cardoustie]

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14410

 

if my math is right . .course assumed to be rated 72

 

I am assuming a 14.8 is a 17 at the club

 

So he plays as a 4 cap round 1 .. 13 under his index and round 2 he is 5 under his index

 

So odds are - if IIRC my stats correctly ..... according to USGA chart for exceptional scores

 

46,300 (or higher) to 1 on day 1 and 101 to 1 on day 2 .. sequential rounds odds must be HUGE !!

 

He should have been tossed from the event

[North Butte]

I would not assume a course rating of 72 from the C flight tees. At my club the C flight would be on tees rated 70.3 for instance.

 

But even 11 under followed by 3 under is a couple hundred thousand to one odds. His true handicap index is almost certainly several shots lower and probably should be under 10.

[Cancun]

I don’t know this guy, but “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…” I’m pretty sure it’s a sandbagging duck.

 

There is this “pope of slope” page with the odds of shooting an Exceptional Tournament Score and there’s also Appendix E of the USGA Handicap Manual with a score probability table. I would certainly figure his differential for those rounds and use those tables to have a better idea of where he is.

 

In my opinion, if the player registers to C flight, that is his competition. If his handicap is not the one for that flight he is DQ’d. The fact that there is another tournament taking place at the same course for the B flight is irrelevant (to me). He didn’t register for that (flight B) tournament, so he can’t play it (forget about winning it!).

 

He signed in for the wrong flight and that should be penalized. Sending him to where he should have been from day one is not a penalty. The problem is that some other dudes look that nothing happens, so they do the same for the next tournament and that’s a never ending story. If you DQ a player who does that, the message is clear to him and the rest of the players as well.

 

Just my 0.02 ;)

[vtnerf]

I don’t know this guy, but “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…” I’m pretty sure it’s a sandbagging duck.

 

There is this “pope of slope” page with the odds of shooting an Exceptional Tournament Score and there’s also Appendix E of the USGA Handicap Manual with a score probability table. I would certainly figure his differential for those rounds and use those tables to have a better idea of where he is.

 

In my opinion, if the player registers to C flight, that is his competition. If his handicap is not the one for that flight he is DQ’d. The fact that there is another tournament taking place at the same course for the B flight is irrelevant (to me). He didn’t register for that (flight B) tournament, so he can’t play it (forget about winning it!).

 

He signed in for the wrong flight and that should be penalized. Sending him to where he should have been from day one is not a penalty. The problem is that some other dudes look that nothing happens, so they do the same for the next tournament and that’s a never ending story. If you DQ a player who does that, the message is clear to him and the rest of the players as well.

 

Just my 0.02 ;)

His scoring average for the year, in those tournament competitions, was a 92.5 prior to the competition in question. His cap index was at 14.8. He signed in for the proper flight. There is no DQ for signing up for the wrong one.

 

What it sounds like is they are only calculating cap (index) based on the tournaments played in their events. If so, shame on them for not taking other rounds into account. If he only played those events, and not any other rounds (unlikely) his cap would be based on the low round alone (he has 6 scores) which is an 87. To me it sounds like the "tournament committee" has a fuzzy way of calculating handicap. And when that happens, it always leads to issues. Calc'ing from only those tournament scores doesn't give a full picture and leaves the door open for an exceptional round.

[Mitchell]

^^ What Cardy said :)

That could have potential as a thread all its own- lol

[North Butte]

At my club they docked a guy's handicap after he posted 72-72 to win a two-day a tournament, playing off a 8 handicap. I've played a hundred or more rounds with this guy and everyone knows he's no sandbagger. And those differentials were each only like 4-1/2 strokes off his index. The odds of back to back beating your index by four strokes are huge but it just happened.

 

He wasn't happy with it but the handicap chairman said basically it isn't that we're accusing you of sandbagging but having to play off 5 for six months is the cost having that once in a lifetime tournament. They didn't think it would be fair of them to get into the business of judging who was honest and who was a lying 'bagger, they just stuck to what their formula said.

 

In that particular case I thought it was too much. I mean this guy plays every day in the dogfight, he enters all the club's competition events, his entire golfing life is right there for everyone to see every day. In some cases no matter what the formula said there's just no blooming way he could have been sandbagging.